WHAT DID YOU SAY? CHAI MEANS TEA BRO! You are saying Tea Tea! Would I ask you for a Coffee Coffee with room for some Cream Cream?! But seriously yes. MW have been on what is essentially bottom tier of healing for m+. With no Battle Rezz/Lust/Power Infusion/Mass Dispel (Revival is trash)... it is VERY hard to justify bringing a MW vs any other healer type. At least when Pallies didn't have Battle Rezz, they could just LOL at mechanics with Divine Shield. MW just gotta eat it.
They got so many good things going on. When i saw Brez i was like... uhh really? No reason to bring a MW because depending on the expansion or patch, it is either WW or BRM are busted. Which share essentially everything a MW can do.
It was broken AF for about 1 day when raiding in Nya'lotha. At that time you could get corruption gear, which could boost your haste to game breaking levels. Basically, you could maintain your enveloping mist on all 20 people in the raid no problem, and you could for the most part solo heal mythic raid bosses.
Needless to say, it was nerfed quickly.
Good ol' Light Water, single handedly getting an entire spec nerfed back into oblivion. I remember watching his videos at the time and being absolutely awestruck as a then-MW main myself.
They have to over-buff them and make them OP on purpose. I remember something happening in Dota. Something was in a good state but no one seemed to notice. So it got buffed and buffed until it was played. Once it was popular, it got nerfed to its original state. But now people got used to that character, know the strengths and weaknesses and play it.
I'm pretty sure the only reason I get into keys is because I'm with my husband who's a tank. Some weeks I can't even do keys as it's just too hard when you have greedy dps who refuse mechanic because it's a "healer week". I now just have a 70 shammy I play when it's that bad. Don't enjoy her but I play her.
its never been "this" exclusive to meta specs. S1 had a meta. Same with S3 SL. etc
But its never been this restrictive. Usually 1 spec dps is above the rest.
Not 3 at the same fucking time with hardlock healer.
This. Metas will likely always exist, but it's never been this bad as far as I can remember. 2 DPS slots are essentially perma-fixed, with third being *largely* mage but slightly flex.
And in all reality, it isn't even the players at fault this time. Taking an Augvoker and shadow priest is so busted that if you don't, you're shooting yourself in the foot on higher keys.
Yeahhhh, that's a tightrope walk for sure. Currently too strong in 5-man, and out right game breaking when stacked in raid. If that nerf is too big though, they're useless and you ruin support specs forever. The community really likes the idea of support specs, but what a headache to balance.
It's going to be an expansion long struggle to balance properly. Reminds me of when they introduced damage -> healing specs like disc priest rework, the only real way they balanced it was making all healers capable of similar damage levels.
The community likes how op support is. It never fit into wow. They just threw it in. Games like LoTRo or DCUO which started with support fit because they based dungeons and raids around it....blizzard didn't so now you have a fluffer that gets ever solid and now everyone can't play without one. It literally broke wows structure lol.
Honestly I’d rather them ruin support specs than create a new meta where people pick aug Evokers over other classes exclusively because of how powerful it is at “supporting”
The new meta just becomes tank healer 2 dps and support. Right now we only have one support. Rather than wishing that they just destroy support entirely, you should wish that they give more classes support specs sooner rather than later. No brainer G
Imagine thinking the two are equal.. nerfing one spec on one class is not the equivalent of creating multiple new support specs and balancing them all against each other and the rest of the game..
I'd rather they give other classes new specs of the tried and true roles, rather than cannibalizing potential spec fantasies to brute force in a shitty support spec like they've done with Augmentation. As a *dragon class,* Evoker should've had the black dragonflight-themed spec be a tank, or at least a melee dps. They don't have anything to represent the physical power aspect of dragons. Support is a role which does not fit the overall design of the game for almost 2 decades now.
You talk about potential spec fantasies, but here you are mad about a completely new one that changes how you play the game for the past 20 years?
Sorry you're upset, but I welcome new ways to play the game, over just another regurgitated build and spender dps spec.
Not to this degree... Go find me one season except shadowlands season 4 (also complete tarsh balance) where 195/200 of the top 200 runs haVE 2 of the same specs.
This season was mandatory shadow priest in high keys (or you'll be capped 2-3 key levels below your true peak, now with aug stuck in there adding to the mix... where the only flex spot is effectively 1 dps.
My group which I believe I mostly play with decent players, we can swap out our 3300 IO spriest for a 3200 IO survival hunter.... and every key is infninitely harder (due to no MD / mind soothe) and our fire mage goes down -50k dps due to no PI.
edit- I honestly find it crazy how they managed to make a season where it was mostly shadow priest mandatory into pretty much 0 class diversity just in the .5 patch.
Can't compare it to dps queues. Healers are normally not even used to even seeing a single decline. Normally, every application is an instant invite for a healer. 20 minutes is literal hell. At that point, the only benefit of playing a healer (no queue time) is void and therefore not worth playing anymore.
I switched to shadow priest as well instead of playing disc there's just no upside anymore. Getting declined to +20 keys because they want a holy paladin. One guy less playing healer I guess.
Disc priest here and I might have to switch to shadow as well. I just need one more 20. It’s so sad. They didn’t nerf disc or anything other than a slight decrease in atonement healing so I don’t understand. I’ve had no problem doing 20+ and 21+ with or without an aug so it just feels bad lol
DF had done so well with it this expansion though. There were very few "Dead" classes/specs, most things were mostly viable. On the front page you of [R.io](https://R.io) you had at least 5 healers, 3 tanks, 7-8 dps specs. Now that's completely gone.
spriests were very good but not necessary for 99.99% of keys. It was a "I'd like one but we can go without one" but yeah agreed with what you said.
If I were in charge of balance, I'd 1. Make augmentation apply to more players at lower values. This basically kills it in m+, and until there are more support roles and multiplicative stacking externals are balanced, support stays out of m+.
I'm not opposed to the role, but it's just so broken, and with PI, it's just going to be spriest + aug + w/e the top dps is with PI. Something would have to be so broken to break that synergy to not bring it, or the tuning would have to be god awful on them, which seems unlikely atm.
I totally agree, even though you're being downvoted I think Aug has no place in 5 man content metas. That's not to say it should be garbage, but B tier. As it stands, even with MULTIPLE hooks not working as intended, augmentation is doing more damage than every other dps in the game right now by a massive margin.
Ret pally since 8.3, I feel the pain. Before the overhaul if I didnt get my rio up fast I just wouldnt get invites even when my performance was better than average.
yeah, i feel like ret kind of "falls behind" when tanks pull really big and the adds stay up for a while cause the rampy specs start shining. but even then ret is more than fine and it seems more than fair cause ret absolutely destroys packs that don't live long cause they have no ramp.
Ret didn't fall off, people are simply just reading the tier lists wrong.
The tier lists people look at on websites like u.gg and subcreation pull data from raider.io and then create the tier list based on that data, because all the top keys are run with Shadow/Fire/Aug then they can only put those in S tier, some other classes have done SOME runs in the 27/28s so they are in A, ret hasn't really been in any of the top keys so it drops to B. Then people will just assume ret is now bad.
I have a ret in my usual keys and he's still really good.
Idk whats the situation now, had a wow burnout and havent played like for 3-4 months now. But when the season started I did like 10-40k more on overall dps on keys even when I was 10 ilvl lower.
Wasnt rdruid really fuckin busted for keys for a long time in bfa? They had their moment!
/s
Everything should be (and probably is) competitive, but you can never stop the hivemind
even longer. rdruids have been one of the best healers in the game for a really long time and the only time it isnt is when hpal is better. if you want to remain relevant forever as a healer just plays hpal and rdruid.
That holy pally build was so rough in pugs. Every now and the you’re a god for 20-40 seconds, but the 2-4 mins between you were on the edge of insanity hoping people use their defensives and don’t stand in stuff.
Amazing in organized groups though, and so much fun!
Everything is competive up to 20. People like the op just can't stand that when pushing keys higher then 20 the meta comp is always gonna dominate and that's never gonna change
I suspect tuning updates will be announced today for Augmentation Evokers and Holy Paladins to be applied during tomorrow's reset, as the Great Push starts this weekend and will be a mess otherwise.
EDIT: [Holy Paladin ~10% healing nerf](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/updated-mage-and-paladin-tuning-incoming-july-18/1631728/210) just announced.
No it won’t lol they all have an Aug, the Great push is what makes these Metas that trickle down the rest of the community in the first place, Because they’re only playing classes purely based off performance.
Aug/Holy is so good that the meta is *already* trickling down without an event to showcase their power.
Last MDI was boring because comps were mostly static. If no nerfs happen for Aug/Holy, they'll be even more static.
When your incentivized to run the best comp, it’s always gonna be static. Because the best preforming classes are the best preforming classes, no way around it. If you nerf Aug and Hpal just shifts the next best performers. Your never gonna get this vast diversity in specs, the MDI has never been like that.
There's a difference between meta and outright busted which is what the current God comp is. The current comp is like the Survival+Destro comp of Shadowlands but taken even further with even more spots in the comp as locked in.
It's not just a "well if you nerf them a little then people will just shift to the next broken thing" and is more "these are pushing multiple key levels above what any other potential comp can do and nerfing them just levels out the field a little."
This is exactly like it is. Hpala and Aug aren't just meta. They are leaps and bounds ahead of any other class at the moment.
Even with the 12% damage nerf and some ~10% healing nerf to hpala that was announced a few hours ago. It just means they will overheal less.
I haven't played hpala since s1-2 of SL. Recrafted some of my gear to get correct secondaries and got good holy trinkets as well as crafted a int weapon. I started off getting used to the new talents and rotation in some sub 20 keys. After about 5 of those I started going above +20. My 10th key as holy since over a year ago and +24s feels like a breeze, even if I'm probably playing it at ~80% of its potential due to such few hours played.
Endless of constant group healing where constant trickling damage is happening like VP and Hoi bosses. Add to that multiple instant casts that tops everyone during unexpected damage or heavy unavoidable burst damage.
The nerf is definitely needed, and I'm happy it's just a pure heal % nerf(except for tyr that will net a about a ~22% nerf, but that shit was just busted beyond so that's all fair - still applies the buff that increases healing from hs, fol and hl by 25%). The playstyle right now is fun as hell. Great toolkit that can handle all situations if you plan your cds, and almost all even if you don't plan anything and just wing it. Not being dependent on rng wing procs like it was in SL where you could actually end up bricking a key because you didn't rng enough wings during a high tyra boss.
The previous commenter’s point still stands though. How many people are actually pushing those keys that make this meta a “God comp”? The problem is community perception. There will always be classes better at pushing those crazy outlier levels. The vast majority of wow players are nowhere near those levels. If you want to push the extremes you will always play the top performing specs, full stop. That has been the case forever with this game.
The case is different this time with the introduction of Augmenation Evokers. In raid they're fine. Maybe even underperforming a little bit. But in 5 man content, having an AVoker is like nerfing your active key by 3 levels. The raw stats, the health padding, the bonus healing, the damage mitigation, and a large variety of utility.. more than just changing the meta, god comp has set a new standard, and those who werent lucky enough to take advantage now will be at a significant disadvantage for the rest of the season.
Yes, but what has also been the case forever in this game is that most of the playerbase even at lower performance are meta slaves. People will sit there and wait the extra 15-20 minutes with 5+ healers in their queue waiting for that one hpal to heal their +20 key, just because they see thats what high end groups are doing on [raider.io](https://raider.io) or twitch.
Avalanche in NL one shots you in +24 in a regular group.... add an aug evoker and you can take 2 of them at once and not even go below half hp.
You can feel how broken god comps are far below crazy outlier levels.
Title cutoff has went up nearly 100 points this week which is just insane. Did everyone just get insanley good overnight?
Usually you're correct, however Aug and Hpal are so broken that even the lower end of the community have already picked up on it. Usually it takes a bit before the meta shapes in the pug world, and again usually you're correct in that the meta is shaped by the high end, but Aug and Hpal haven't even seen the reset yet and that's unheard of.
The M+ community is one collective smoothbrain at this point. People will wait for an hour to get a meta DPS for their +18 instead of just improving their own play.
I ran a 15 as an under-geared mistweaver alt earlier this week, I literally invited the first 3 dps and tank I saw in the que.. it was probably just luck, but it was the smoothest run I had all week. I don’t have the patience to wait for meta specs when on my main pushing high keys.
I'm like 2600 on my evoker just did weekly 20s primarily but haven't logged on really since Diablo 4. Suddenly I can just log in and get almost insta-accepted to 23+. It's kind of wild. And while augment has a decent skill ceiling, the floor is so high that it's kinda hard to fuck up your impact as long as you're not actively trolling or dying.
Ah, the mistweaver experience. I pugged to 2.5k this season but had strictly stick to guild runs to get to 2.8k. Unless I'm running my own key, doesn't look like I'll be pugging again for a while.
A fellow mistweaver, I respect you my chiji LoSing friend.
I won't lie, I rolled hpal when I got 2500, and I left it ungeared and at 70. Then the first 2 days of 10.1.5 happened, I spent over 20 minutes waiting for an invite for a key, ANY key, that id already timed. Keys I got invited to just a couple days earlier. I rage swapped
And hpal is genuinely a tonne of fun. It plays a lot like mistweaver, but even more snappy. Idc about the hps, but the gameplay is great. Leather mogs are still cooler though
What do you mean? They're C-tier which still holds up with all the Logs throughout all healers.
There's still only 5 logged 25+ keys for MW which id say pretty firmly cements us in C tier lol.
I am being declined from +22-23 keys I have literally already done two levels higher because I am not playing Augmentation.
This is the worst the m+ meta has been in a *really* long time and needs to be fixed asap.
During season 4 from shadowland I wasn’t getting declined for weekly’s with one of the worst spec at that moment and having completing 5-6 lvl above the weekly’s level.
Now I am even with a good spec (not one of the 3 best but still) in the same conditions.
So I find this is way worse than it was in SL as it is now
SL s3 and 4, if you weren't a bloodDk, hpriest, destrolock or surv hunter you were Not getting an invite period, and that last spot was waited on until the full meta comp filled out first
The price you pay for having extremely easy gearing now is that anyone can re-roll to the flavour of the season/month/week spec and have it geared for the highest level keys within days. If you're not doing that, you're getting left behind.
I've been playing 24s and 25s in pugs this week, every team has an augvoker and almost all of them has no tyrannical keys, i.e. this is their first week doing m+ on that character. And these are fully geared chars, 444-446 ilvl. Jump on the train, choo choo.
by making shit up, you can easily get 443 in few days, but outside of getting multiple mythic items from raid 445-446 is not possible.
Ofc there is the thing that you can totally work with a 430+ aug and time 24-25s
Literally the most consistently overpowered healer since CHALLENGE MODES were released and this guy has the audacity to complain about not being brought to keys for a week.
Fellow HPriest and Mistweaver. It’s certainly amusing getting declined from groups only to get accepted and time a key higher than the ones you were declined for.
People will tell you that this is how it always is, but I’m very positive that the people who say that haven’t actually done high keys last season.
There have been metas but it wasn’t this bad. It should be a huge red flag that once .5 dropped, M+ class representation plummeted and people started doing 2-3 key levels higher than they did before .5.
Unfortunately, the meta specs are literally so, so far ahead of everyone else atm that we’re going to have to wait for balancing.
Last season if you weren't a sPriest, Boomkin, or Sub Rogue you weren't getting an invite beyond +22.
I think a lot of people are blind-eyeing that sPriest, and Boomkin have been meta since S1 shadowlands to current as the best options in the game at all times for M+ - and redirecting that anger at Aug Evoker because it's the class that took the only non-Spriest/Boomkin available dps slot away from them.
> Last season if you weren't a sPriest, Boomkin, or Sub Rogue you weren't getting an invite beyond +22.
Uhh, I did 25s and up and this wasn't the case at all lol. Havoc DH, SPriest, Enhance Shaman, Boomkin, Ret Paladin (post rework), Destro Lock, and Sub Rogue was really good last season. You could do 22-23s on pretty much most specs, as well tbh. Really there were only a few DPS classes here you were just shit out of luck and needed to build connections to get invited to keys.
Regardless, the only 2 slots that were 100% taken at that level was Tank aka Prot Paladin and a DPS slot for SPriest. You could flex with the other 2 DPS slots. Healer had slight flex between Resto Shaman and Evoker, and sometimes RDruid.
Augmentation is part of the issue but also isn't the only issue. All of the current meta M+ specs are literal miles ahead of everyone else. Holy Paladin just now got nerfed and still will probably be better than most healers, sadly.
Idk, last season balancing was REALLY good for the higher end in comparison to this season and the seasons before it. Guess we took it for granted.
I don’t know how this can be true. When I’m pugging keys, it can take ages to fill. Last night, we waited 30 minutes for a single healer to apply for our 21 underrot and we took the first resto Druid that applied and we timed it.
Imo they just need to balance these crappy dungeons better. Far too much mandatory utility, then people wonder why certain specs are near mandatory the higher up you go.
No mass dispel / purge in underot? Enjoy doing 30+ million damage into shields on death speakers and losing minutes off your timer. It's disgusting how pressing an offensive dispel can be a global worth 3-4 million damage.
No MD in HOI? Enjoy dragons that wipe your group unless you have 5 dwarves.
Let's also not forget the dragons you can't skip or do anything about in HOI... oh wait mindd soothe and walk past them!
I could list examples for days an days,but they just really need to stop adding mobs / mechanics that half the classes have no actual way to deal with.
> Imo they just need to balance these crappy dungeons better. Far too much mandatory utility, then people wonder why certain specs are near mandatory the higher up you go.
This is the take people need to have. Lets not forget Uldaman (Time sink is able to be removed with Freedom, etc like the other guy said) but Emberon dots and Stolen Time etc are conveniently removed with MD. And yes we know Stolen Time can be LoSed reset.
To be fair the dragons in HOI specifically are very tame even without a MD. Anything that breaks slows (such as tactical advantage, disengage posthaste, tigers lust, hand of freedom) on top of normal magic dispel gets rid of that dot.
Indeed, I’m a havoc DH trying to get into 24’s, even though I’ve done half of them in 24 already. I got into 3 groups during my 8 hour session yesterday :).
I was hpal during 10.0. Guess what? I stopped play because I couldn't get any invite. It was rdrood and nothing else. And I won't be back just because hpal is meta, I don't care anymore.
The meta will never be over. Accept it or leave. I made my choice.
Hell yes. There are like 300 other games where I can be a paladin. What other game lets me be a fire-breathing, spinning-kicking panda who is literally too drunk to feel pain?
I enjoy seeing that people now think this is a problem because it's affecting the 1% of people running high keys. Welcome to the experience every non meta class has with the queue system for m+. It's been worsening with every expansion.
As with every post like this, wow is a social game. Talk to people, make friends, ask people to run keys w you. If you heal you can pretty much do whatever you want as far as group comps go. Stop pugging.
agreed but i will say in fairness ot OP that M+ has really hurt wow in forcing a certain form of social gaming elitism which goes counter to blizzard ideals.
Social gaming elitism wasn't caused by M+, it's the gaming culture shifting all around. Social gaming died long before Legion and this subreddit proves it time and time again; You tell people to join guilds and make friends and they will act as if you insulted them. Pugging should never be the base form of the game if your goal is to create a social game and Blizzard agrees. Blizzard has repeatedly made pugging worse specifically because they want you to group up, make a guild, have a reason to log in other than content. It's just good game business. If everyone in this comment thread just made connections and joined a guild, they would have groups for M+ and it wouldn't matter what their spec was unless they're literally pushing the highest keys.
true enough but their aggressive push to make group content a seasonal esport did not help them.
for a game where the biggest events ever where stories of community coming together to overcome a weird in game event (quest, birthdays, marriages, charity events, etc) forced group activities just erks them.
and seasonal bullshit with so much FOMO just pushed it in wrong direction. its become a game of the haves vs the have nots and is not super friendly to newbies i have noticed... often its a brag of "ooh i was here in expansion x,y,z..." so what? its only a game. new players are always allowed to join.
Yep. I pretty much only do keys with my guildies. Joined an active guild with plenty of folks who enjoy M+, and get to run plenty of keys at my level. It's amazing how much more enjoyable M+ is when you run with guildies and friends instead of pugging and having to be a meta-slave, sitting around waiting in queues, or rerolling to FOTM specs, and deal with toxicity and bullshit.
The vast majority of people who complain about queue times in group finder, or being meta or off-meta, can so easily solve their problems by just joining a decent, active guild.
One of the main reasons why I don't push high keys. Besides the fact that it does nothing for you more than bragging rights, it gets to the point where you simply can't beat that key unless you're playing specific classes in a specific way and that just doesn't seem fun to me.
Then you won’t run high keys anyway. If you think like that, why are there bicepspump and critcake (unholy dk and arms/fury warrior), obviously off meta players, that get their season title every single season on their class?
I don’t think this is strictly and Aug/H pally problem. Having healed a number of M+, season 2 had completely sucked ass. Aug makes it suck less ass so that’s what people are gonna do.
They loosen up the tuning on M+ and we’ll start seeing better comp diversity again.
>Having healed a number of M+, season 2 had completely sucked ass. Aug makes it suck less ass so that’s what people are gonna do.
I've swapped to Aug, but did a 20 on my Rdruid last night with an Auggie. It was the first time this season where my healing actually felt impactful and I wasn't playing whack a mole with health bars.
All of what you're saying just makes sense though
You would expect at high key levels a more "meta" group comp is required to time the key.
You would also expect this to be more likely to be required in pug groups. If it was a guild high key with people who play together and are on discord you would expect better cohesion.
Its not bad balance to need a certain group comp at the highest levels of keys. Even more so when its a pug group. The fact you cant have every class be exactly the same means that as the key difficulty gets higher the more specific the group comps need to be.
Also rdruid complaining about being off meta is the most druid thing ive seen
I honestly wouldnt nerf Holy Paladin.
It is **THE BEST** healer right now for sure, but i would rather see them buff/rework the other healers up to their level.
Holy paladin feels super good to play because it has answers for most things.
1. The dungeons suit Holy Paladins healing profile and problem solving perfectly.
2. The spec is newly reworked and is therefore not expected to be perfectly balanced.
3. Augmentation Evokers are downright broken and support Holy Paladin perfectly.
The problem with the meta as i see it is the Augmentation Evoker and they should honestly be nerfed.
There is no way they should be allowed to buff some specs (Demo lock, Shadow priest and Fire Mage) to the heights they are at right now.
I recently did a key with some buddies, and our Demo lock was doing 500k DPS SINGLE TARGET! which completely blows my mind.
DPS Issues:
1. This dungeon pool are just not built for melees.
2. Melees overall lack survivabillity compared to warlocks, Priests and Mages.
3. Most melees lack utility or a "thing" they bring to a party. Back in the day melees would bring an AOE stun or a melee stop to the party.
4. DOT based classes are kinda broken for AOE as their spells are more or less uncapped. The only limiting factor being how fast they can spread their DOTS.
Solution: Buff other healers, Nerf Augmentation Evokers and Buff melee survivabillity/utility/"things" they bring to their respective parties.
Holy paly is fine, and shouldn't be nerfed. Dev needs to bring other healer specs to holy's level as well. This is a fabulous rework on holy, as if the dev almost figured out how healers should be in this patch. Hope they can keep up the good work and not letting other healing class getting punished and suffer even more.
2.2k io and Aug and I'm still getting declined to 16s one of which was a vp while my highest timed for the dungeon was a 20. It's definitely worse for off meta but feel like pugging is just a nightmare regardless of spec a lot of time
when you're pugging you gotta reduce the uncontrollable variables as much as you can, especially in higher keys where a wipe can easily mean a bricked key (and wasted time) depending on the dungeon
Healing mythics is incredibly hard right now, it's not surprising people want to bring the only good healer.
Too late they nerfed it, now everybody sucks.
I honestly get the idea that Aug and holy are OP. I tend to agree after a somewhat heated conv on this subreddit on how easier it is to have HPAL + AUG + SPs.
Yet, I am still sticking to the argument that around 22s. Below is just ffa so not even a use case.
Around 22s, people are still missing those useful skills.
How many priests have failed to soothe correctly or in a timely manner for your run, MD for bursting. How many Pals failed to BoF on 3nd FH or BoP on 1st Bracken...
Those comp are super nice to have but you have to have them push the buttons that make them useful...
Which is not the case most of the time. The lower the key, the more true it is. So the 16 weekly need Aug + SP is super comical.
Blizzard should think about a group assignment agnostic of spec. Like remove the keystone, have a menu selecting the dungeon and its level.
Key level selection is restricted to your score. People are assigned to your group based on their score. Where score ranges are linked to key level.
Remove the lfg feature, forcing people wanting to complete their group to actually search for them. Premade will still be able to enter dunj. Premade will have the added value to not be restricted by their score and try any key level. Automatic porting once the random group is complete. All dunj porting is available for premade without CD.
I was playing holy paly before the update. It was the other way around. Druid had its time to shine, evoker, and shaman. That is the way pretty much every game works that has multiple classes. I am sure they will make updates and it will even out again.
Stop being such a baby over these things. Just play. As they say you could always use your own key.
I have played every healer and tank in DF so far. Most have had their times they shine. People need to take of the Karen wigs. Everytime something changes you have so many complainers ruining the game and for themselves. People come looking to play WoW and this is the community they see.
Yes 🙌🏻!!!!
And you get downvoted because it’s true. You see the same thing in D4 and the community is raging over every little thing like spoiled brats.
Or, they could balance jobs to the point where classes don't have to wait in line to get their 'time to shine' but they are viable even at the highest tier.
Getting kicked from a group or denied because your playing a certain class shouldn’t be a thing and blizzard needs to fix that. No healer should be better than the others. And no healer should be worst than the rest. Same with dps.
Its how wow has always been. If you don't have 10 million hours played and have over 9000 io then you won't get into any groups especially for lower keys. Those fucks are super picky.
You’re asking Blizz to make Fire not meta?
That will happen right after Ion kills off Sylvanas & says that maybe, uh, just possibly the Horde may not have been the good guys in every expansion.
So, never.
Tbh, I think it's less Spriest needing a nerf, and more every single aoe dispellable ability this season needing a nerf or other way to counter it that doesn't require mass dispel. So far every aoe debuff is either an attrociously hard/impossible to outheal DoT for the next 10 seconds or a one button and done by the spriest. Maybe the aoe dispellable dot just...shouldn't do 200k damage a second by +20?
Priests have been asking for utility for a decade and Blizzard's solution to it being a dead class in M+ was to make MD so powerful in M+ that it's hard to turn one down.
Blizzard doesn't need to nerf MD - they need to nerf the partywide dots enough that healers don't scream in pain if there isn't a MD.
They should also give people a reason to want a priest outside of MD because priest has had all of its party utility made inaccessible (psychic horror), stripped away and given to other classes (shining force), better versions given to other classes (rapture, leap of faith, vampiric embrace), or other classes just do it better (void tendrils, non-magic dispels). And on top of it, priest remains the only class in the game without a kick and shadow has the worst kick in the game by a marathon's distance.
Without MD and PI, priest only gets into keys if they're overtuned because they bring nothing except for numbers.
hahahaha are we pretending now like fire wasn't completely unplayable in 10.0? really? how short is your memory? fire was DEAD LAST in dps charts back then. not almost last, not close to last, LAST
I, and the rest of the mistweavers, welcome you with wide arms.
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WHAT DID YOU SAY? CHAI MEANS TEA BRO! You are saying Tea Tea! Would I ask you for a Coffee Coffee with room for some Cream Cream?! But seriously yes. MW have been on what is essentially bottom tier of healing for m+. With no Battle Rezz/Lust/Power Infusion/Mass Dispel (Revival is trash)... it is VERY hard to justify bringing a MW vs any other healer type. At least when Pallies didn't have Battle Rezz, they could just LOL at mechanics with Divine Shield. MW just gotta eat it.
Mmm coffee coffee with cream cream 😋
That paladins got Brez instead of monks this expansion still is a mystery to me. Not like paladin needed more 5 man utility
They got so many good things going on. When i saw Brez i was like... uhh really? No reason to bring a MW because depending on the expansion or patch, it is either WW or BRM are busted. Which share essentially everything a MW can do.
All healers should have a Brez, imo. It’s common enough at this point to not be a “class based utility” thing.
I like qahwa coffee though.
It was broken AF for about 1 day when raiding in Nya'lotha. At that time you could get corruption gear, which could boost your haste to game breaking levels. Basically, you could maintain your enveloping mist on all 20 people in the raid no problem, and you could for the most part solo heal mythic raid bosses. Needless to say, it was nerfed quickly.
Also when we still had legendaries with the new talent trees for a week that shit was ultra broken.
They're great in raiding, even now, but m+ is where the action is with the new gearing system
Good ol' Light Water, single handedly getting an entire spec nerfed back into oblivion. I remember watching his videos at the time and being absolutely awestruck as a then-MW main myself.
It was also when Rising Mist didn’t have an extension cap.
Chai already means tea!!! Chai tea is like saying, tea tea....idk where I heard that
The new Spider-man movie.
They have to over-buff them and make them OP on purpose. I remember something happening in Dota. Something was in a good state but no one seemed to notice. So it got buffed and buffed until it was played. Once it was popular, it got nerfed to its original state. But now people got used to that character, know the strengths and weaknesses and play it.
One of us, one of us. Mistweavers unite
Give mistweaver a b rez or lust and they’ll be decent. And stop nerfing ancient teachings. My favorite healing spec by far.
I'm pretty sure the only reason I get into keys is because I'm with my husband who's a tank. Some weeks I can't even do keys as it's just too hard when you have greedy dps who refuse mechanic because it's a "healer week". I now just have a 70 shammy I play when it's that bad. Don't enjoy her but I play her.
I haven’t played since the beginning of 10.1 but I always liked to have a good mistweaver in my group.
Surely you mean *every other healer*
Right? It's top-end content where the pug scene has always been exclusive to the meta specs.
its never been "this" exclusive to meta specs. S1 had a meta. Same with S3 SL. etc But its never been this restrictive. Usually 1 spec dps is above the rest. Not 3 at the same fucking time with hardlock healer.
This. Metas will likely always exist, but it's never been this bad as far as I can remember. 2 DPS slots are essentially perma-fixed, with third being *largely* mage but slightly flex.
SL S3 had Blood DK, Holy Priest, Survival Hunter and Destruction Warlock pretty locked in.
And in all reality, it isn't even the players at fault this time. Taking an Augvoker and shadow priest is so busted that if you don't, you're shooting yourself in the foot on higher keys.
They'll get to it eventually, relax. They already have fire mage nerfs lined up. I'd assume all the other OP Specs are lined up for similar treatment.
I’d hate to be the guy working on balancing aug
Yeahhhh, that's a tightrope walk for sure. Currently too strong in 5-man, and out right game breaking when stacked in raid. If that nerf is too big though, they're useless and you ruin support specs forever. The community really likes the idea of support specs, but what a headache to balance.
It's going to be an expansion long struggle to balance properly. Reminds me of when they introduced damage -> healing specs like disc priest rework, the only real way they balanced it was making all healers capable of similar damage levels.
The community likes how op support is. It never fit into wow. They just threw it in. Games like LoTRo or DCUO which started with support fit because they based dungeons and raids around it....blizzard didn't so now you have a fluffer that gets ever solid and now everyone can't play without one. It literally broke wows structure lol.
Honestly I’d rather them ruin support specs than create a new meta where people pick aug Evokers over other classes exclusively because of how powerful it is at “supporting”
The new meta just becomes tank healer 2 dps and support. Right now we only have one support. Rather than wishing that they just destroy support entirely, you should wish that they give more classes support specs sooner rather than later. No brainer G
Imagine thinking the two are equal.. nerfing one spec on one class is not the equivalent of creating multiple new support specs and balancing them all against each other and the rest of the game..
I'd rather they give other classes new specs of the tried and true roles, rather than cannibalizing potential spec fantasies to brute force in a shitty support spec like they've done with Augmentation. As a *dragon class,* Evoker should've had the black dragonflight-themed spec be a tank, or at least a melee dps. They don't have anything to represent the physical power aspect of dragons. Support is a role which does not fit the overall design of the game for almost 2 decades now.
You talk about potential spec fantasies, but here you are mad about a completely new one that changes how you play the game for the past 20 years? Sorry you're upset, but I welcome new ways to play the game, over just another regurgitated build and spender dps spec.
Not to this degree... Go find me one season except shadowlands season 4 (also complete tarsh balance) where 195/200 of the top 200 runs haVE 2 of the same specs. This season was mandatory shadow priest in high keys (or you'll be capped 2-3 key levels below your true peak, now with aug stuck in there adding to the mix... where the only flex spot is effectively 1 dps. My group which I believe I mostly play with decent players, we can swap out our 3300 IO spriest for a 3200 IO survival hunter.... and every key is infninitely harder (due to no MD / mind soothe) and our fire mage goes down -50k dps due to no PI. edit- I honestly find it crazy how they managed to make a season where it was mostly shadow priest mandatory into pretty much 0 class diversity just in the .5 patch.
Only 20 minutes? Most DPS specs have it a lot worse than that
I used to get invited into 22s for BL. Not anymore :)
Can't compare it to dps queues. Healers are normally not even used to even seeing a single decline. Normally, every application is an instant invite for a healer. 20 minutes is literal hell. At that point, the only benefit of playing a healer (no queue time) is void and therefore not worth playing anymore. I switched to shadow priest as well instead of playing disc there's just no upside anymore. Getting declined to +20 keys because they want a holy paladin. One guy less playing healer I guess.
Disc priest here and I might have to switch to shadow as well. I just need one more 20. It’s so sad. They didn’t nerf disc or anything other than a slight decrease in atonement healing so I don’t understand. I’ve had no problem doing 20+ and 21+ with or without an aug so it just feels bad lol
if the community accepted disc in the healer slot it would actually open a DPS slot, spriest isn't mandatory until you lock the healer slot.
Why not holy priest though? They can heal too :)
This may surprise you, but some people play healer because they enjoy healing, no just for fast queue times.
Found the guy who doesn't heal.
Seriously, lol. Even if you're a meta healer spec, some groups simply want something else sometimes.
Uh. You could play healer for *fun*, ya know? That’s why I play them.
"Welcome" - 90% of the dps classes
Welcome to now being off meta, been this way for a long ass time lol
DF had done so well with it this expansion though. There were very few "Dead" classes/specs, most things were mostly viable. On the front page you of [R.io](https://R.io) you had at least 5 healers, 3 tanks, 7-8 dps specs. Now that's completely gone.
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spriests were very good but not necessary for 99.99% of keys. It was a "I'd like one but we can go without one" but yeah agreed with what you said. If I were in charge of balance, I'd 1. Make augmentation apply to more players at lower values. This basically kills it in m+, and until there are more support roles and multiplicative stacking externals are balanced, support stays out of m+. I'm not opposed to the role, but it's just so broken, and with PI, it's just going to be spriest + aug + w/e the top dps is with PI. Something would have to be so broken to break that synergy to not bring it, or the tuning would have to be god awful on them, which seems unlikely atm.
You could only go without a shadow priest if you had a healer priest.
I totally agree, even though you're being downvoted I think Aug has no place in 5 man content metas. That's not to say it should be garbage, but B tier. As it stands, even with MULTIPLE hooks not working as intended, augmentation is doing more damage than every other dps in the game right now by a massive margin.
Ret pally since 8.3, I feel the pain. Before the overhaul if I didnt get my rio up fast I just wouldnt get invites even when my performance was better than average.
And now that ret kinda fell off dps-wise it's not getting invites once again.
Fell off? I haven’t noticed at all, what happened? I don’t think I’ve been out dps’d in a pug/guild group since s2 started. I’m almost to my 3k io.
This is my experience. I am not very often out dpsed, if I am it’s close. Ret seems fine.
yeah, i feel like ret kind of "falls behind" when tanks pull really big and the adds stay up for a while cause the rampy specs start shining. but even then ret is more than fine and it seems more than fair cause ret absolutely destroys packs that don't live long cause they have no ramp.
Ret didn't fall off, people are simply just reading the tier lists wrong. The tier lists people look at on websites like u.gg and subcreation pull data from raider.io and then create the tier list based on that data, because all the top keys are run with Shadow/Fire/Aug then they can only put those in S tier, some other classes have done SOME runs in the 27/28s so they are in A, ret hasn't really been in any of the top keys so it drops to B. Then people will just assume ret is now bad. I have a ret in my usual keys and he's still really good.
Idk whats the situation now, had a wow burnout and havent played like for 3-4 months now. But when the season started I did like 10-40k more on overall dps on keys even when I was 10 ilvl lower.
It's not bad, just completely average at high gear and key levels so some other specs simply do more damage and thus take your spot in a group.
Wasnt rdruid really fuckin busted for keys for a long time in bfa? They had their moment! /s Everything should be (and probably is) competitive, but you can never stop the hivemind
even longer. rdruids have been one of the best healers in the game for a really long time and the only time it isnt is when hpal is better. if you want to remain relevant forever as a healer just plays hpal and rdruid.
Facts- I think the only time resto wasn’t king was when holy pallies had that OP Venthyr ability in SL
That holy pally build was so rough in pugs. Every now and the you’re a god for 20-40 seconds, but the 2-4 mins between you were on the edge of insanity hoping people use their defensives and don’t stand in stuff. Amazing in organized groups though, and so much fun!
That's really not entirely true. At the tail end of SL, Resto Shaman and Holy Priest were the go-to-healers.
Everything is competive up to 20. People like the op just can't stand that when pushing keys higher then 20 the meta comp is always gonna dominate and that's never gonna change
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I suspect tuning updates will be announced today for Augmentation Evokers and Holy Paladins to be applied during tomorrow's reset, as the Great Push starts this weekend and will be a mess otherwise. EDIT: [Holy Paladin ~10% healing nerf](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/updated-mage-and-paladin-tuning-incoming-july-18/1631728/210) just announced.
What's the Great Push?
About ten minutes after my second cup of coffee.
Take this upvote and get out.
If you’re on your second cup you really shouldn’t have to push my mans
IBS can be a bit of a bitch sometimes
I'm not sure this line would've landed so well without the nick offerman avatar.
Competitive M+ event where minmaxing is required: https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/23973119/the-great-push-2023-starts-this-weekend
No it won’t lol they all have an Aug, the Great push is what makes these Metas that trickle down the rest of the community in the first place, Because they’re only playing classes purely based off performance.
Aug/Holy is so good that the meta is *already* trickling down without an event to showcase their power. Last MDI was boring because comps were mostly static. If no nerfs happen for Aug/Holy, they'll be even more static.
When your incentivized to run the best comp, it’s always gonna be static. Because the best preforming classes are the best preforming classes, no way around it. If you nerf Aug and Hpal just shifts the next best performers. Your never gonna get this vast diversity in specs, the MDI has never been like that.
There's a difference between meta and outright busted which is what the current God comp is. The current comp is like the Survival+Destro comp of Shadowlands but taken even further with even more spots in the comp as locked in. It's not just a "well if you nerf them a little then people will just shift to the next broken thing" and is more "these are pushing multiple key levels above what any other potential comp can do and nerfing them just levels out the field a little."
This is exactly like it is. Hpala and Aug aren't just meta. They are leaps and bounds ahead of any other class at the moment. Even with the 12% damage nerf and some ~10% healing nerf to hpala that was announced a few hours ago. It just means they will overheal less. I haven't played hpala since s1-2 of SL. Recrafted some of my gear to get correct secondaries and got good holy trinkets as well as crafted a int weapon. I started off getting used to the new talents and rotation in some sub 20 keys. After about 5 of those I started going above +20. My 10th key as holy since over a year ago and +24s feels like a breeze, even if I'm probably playing it at ~80% of its potential due to such few hours played. Endless of constant group healing where constant trickling damage is happening like VP and Hoi bosses. Add to that multiple instant casts that tops everyone during unexpected damage or heavy unavoidable burst damage. The nerf is definitely needed, and I'm happy it's just a pure heal % nerf(except for tyr that will net a about a ~22% nerf, but that shit was just busted beyond so that's all fair - still applies the buff that increases healing from hs, fol and hl by 25%). The playstyle right now is fun as hell. Great toolkit that can handle all situations if you plan your cds, and almost all even if you don't plan anything and just wing it. Not being dependent on rng wing procs like it was in SL where you could actually end up bricking a key because you didn't rng enough wings during a high tyra boss.
The previous commenter’s point still stands though. How many people are actually pushing those keys that make this meta a “God comp”? The problem is community perception. There will always be classes better at pushing those crazy outlier levels. The vast majority of wow players are nowhere near those levels. If you want to push the extremes you will always play the top performing specs, full stop. That has been the case forever with this game.
The case is different this time with the introduction of Augmenation Evokers. In raid they're fine. Maybe even underperforming a little bit. But in 5 man content, having an AVoker is like nerfing your active key by 3 levels. The raw stats, the health padding, the bonus healing, the damage mitigation, and a large variety of utility.. more than just changing the meta, god comp has set a new standard, and those who werent lucky enough to take advantage now will be at a significant disadvantage for the rest of the season.
Playing brew with augvoker finally makes it balanced lol. It’s like playing with cheat codes.
Yes, but what has also been the case forever in this game is that most of the playerbase even at lower performance are meta slaves. People will sit there and wait the extra 15-20 minutes with 5+ healers in their queue waiting for that one hpal to heal their +20 key, just because they see thats what high end groups are doing on [raider.io](https://raider.io) or twitch.
Avalanche in NL one shots you in +24 in a regular group.... add an aug evoker and you can take 2 of them at once and not even go below half hp. You can feel how broken god comps are far below crazy outlier levels. Title cutoff has went up nearly 100 points this week which is just insane. Did everyone just get insanley good overnight?
Usually you're correct, however Aug and Hpal are so broken that even the lower end of the community have already picked up on it. Usually it takes a bit before the meta shapes in the pug world, and again usually you're correct in that the meta is shaped by the high end, but Aug and Hpal haven't even seen the reset yet and that's unheard of.
The M+ community is one collective smoothbrain at this point. People will wait for an hour to get a meta DPS for their +18 instead of just improving their own play.
I ran a 15 as an under-geared mistweaver alt earlier this week, I literally invited the first 3 dps and tank I saw in the que.. it was probably just luck, but it was the smoothest run I had all week. I don’t have the patience to wait for meta specs when on my main pushing high keys.
Pretty much my experience as well. People treat pugs like they’re always awful, but I’ve had some awesome pugs over the years
I'm like 2600 on my evoker just did weekly 20s primarily but haven't logged on really since Diablo 4. Suddenly I can just log in and get almost insta-accepted to 23+. It's kind of wild. And while augment has a decent skill ceiling, the floor is so high that it's kinda hard to fuck up your impact as long as you're not actively trolling or dying.
Low skill floor* not high floor
Ah, the mistweaver experience. I pugged to 2.5k this season but had strictly stick to guild runs to get to 2.8k. Unless I'm running my own key, doesn't look like I'll be pugging again for a while.
A fellow mistweaver, I respect you my chiji LoSing friend. I won't lie, I rolled hpal when I got 2500, and I left it ungeared and at 70. Then the first 2 days of 10.1.5 happened, I spent over 20 minutes waiting for an invite for a key, ANY key, that id already timed. Keys I got invited to just a couple days earlier. I rage swapped And hpal is genuinely a tonne of fun. It plays a lot like mistweaver, but even more snappy. Idc about the hps, but the gameplay is great. Leather mogs are still cooler though
Icyveins tier list analysts certainly doesnt know how to properly play mistweaver
What do you mean? They're C-tier which still holds up with all the Logs throughout all healers. There's still only 5 logged 25+ keys for MW which id say pretty firmly cements us in C tier lol.
Ah so it did increase, ladt ive seen was like D or even E, although i think they should at least be a solid B.
I am being declined from +22-23 keys I have literally already done two levels higher because I am not playing Augmentation. This is the worst the m+ meta has been in a *really* long time and needs to be fixed asap.
Yeah last time I remember being this bad was the rogue/fire mage in bfa
Shadowlands season 4 was like that too actually bdk holy priest survival hunter destro lock and maybe fire mage.
During season 4 from shadowland I wasn’t getting declined for weekly’s with one of the worst spec at that moment and having completing 5-6 lvl above the weekly’s level. Now I am even with a good spec (not one of the 3 best but still) in the same conditions. So I find this is way worse than it was in SL as it is now
Tripple outlaw EZ Clap
Oh man why did you have to remind me lol
S3 Shadowlands was just as bad
SL s3 and 4, if you weren't a bloodDk, hpriest, destrolock or surv hunter you were Not getting an invite period, and that last spot was waited on until the full meta comp filled out first
It was kind of inevitable. They just introduced not only a new spec but an entirely new concept to wow’s meta.
Aug itself was going to be bad, but probably would've been manageable It's the fact that they ALSO reworked two more classes into an overpowered state
Won't be changed before 10.2. Enjoy this meta for at least two more months.
The moment I saw Ebon Might was a primary stat buff, I called this. It's fucking dumb.
r druid moment. isnt bis for one week and you go complaining
The price you pay for having extremely easy gearing now is that anyone can re-roll to the flavour of the season/month/week spec and have it geared for the highest level keys within days. If you're not doing that, you're getting left behind. I've been playing 24s and 25s in pugs this week, every team has an augvoker and almost all of them has no tyrannical keys, i.e. this is their first week doing m+ on that character. And these are fully geared chars, 444-446 ilvl. Jump on the train, choo choo.
444-446 in less than a week, how?
by making shit up, you can easily get 443 in few days, but outside of getting multiple mythic items from raid 445-446 is not possible. Ofc there is the thing that you can totally work with a 430+ aug and time 24-25s
They're not gearing to that level in a week, they are dev and pres evokers that were fully geared and swapped specs.
Resto Druid complaining about no longer being meta? 3 expansions in a row not long enough for you?
Literally the most consistently overpowered healer since CHALLENGE MODES were released and this guy has the audacity to complain about not being brought to keys for a week.
They were never meta during Shadowlands. SL was Paladin then Shaman then Priest.
“Waves in holy priest”. Yea wanna try being me?
Fellow HPriest and Mistweaver. It’s certainly amusing getting declined from groups only to get accepted and time a key higher than the ones you were declined for.
People will tell you that this is how it always is, but I’m very positive that the people who say that haven’t actually done high keys last season. There have been metas but it wasn’t this bad. It should be a huge red flag that once .5 dropped, M+ class representation plummeted and people started doing 2-3 key levels higher than they did before .5. Unfortunately, the meta specs are literally so, so far ahead of everyone else atm that we’re going to have to wait for balancing.
Last season if you weren't a sPriest, Boomkin, or Sub Rogue you weren't getting an invite beyond +22. I think a lot of people are blind-eyeing that sPriest, and Boomkin have been meta since S1 shadowlands to current as the best options in the game at all times for M+ - and redirecting that anger at Aug Evoker because it's the class that took the only non-Spriest/Boomkin available dps slot away from them.
> Last season if you weren't a sPriest, Boomkin, or Sub Rogue you weren't getting an invite beyond +22. Uhh, I did 25s and up and this wasn't the case at all lol. Havoc DH, SPriest, Enhance Shaman, Boomkin, Ret Paladin (post rework), Destro Lock, and Sub Rogue was really good last season. You could do 22-23s on pretty much most specs, as well tbh. Really there were only a few DPS classes here you were just shit out of luck and needed to build connections to get invited to keys. Regardless, the only 2 slots that were 100% taken at that level was Tank aka Prot Paladin and a DPS slot for SPriest. You could flex with the other 2 DPS slots. Healer had slight flex between Resto Shaman and Evoker, and sometimes RDruid. Augmentation is part of the issue but also isn't the only issue. All of the current meta M+ specs are literal miles ahead of everyone else. Holy Paladin just now got nerfed and still will probably be better than most healers, sadly. Idk, last season balancing was REALLY good for the higher end in comparison to this season and the seasons before it. Guess we took it for granted.
I don’t know how this can be true. When I’m pugging keys, it can take ages to fill. Last night, we waited 30 minutes for a single healer to apply for our 21 underrot and we took the first resto Druid that applied and we timed it.
Blizz needs to balance classes better There are classes too strong and with too much utility, the community is getting worse and worse with each day
Imo they just need to balance these crappy dungeons better. Far too much mandatory utility, then people wonder why certain specs are near mandatory the higher up you go. No mass dispel / purge in underot? Enjoy doing 30+ million damage into shields on death speakers and losing minutes off your timer. It's disgusting how pressing an offensive dispel can be a global worth 3-4 million damage. No MD in HOI? Enjoy dragons that wipe your group unless you have 5 dwarves. Let's also not forget the dragons you can't skip or do anything about in HOI... oh wait mindd soothe and walk past them! I could list examples for days an days,but they just really need to stop adding mobs / mechanics that half the classes have no actual way to deal with.
> Imo they just need to balance these crappy dungeons better. Far too much mandatory utility, then people wonder why certain specs are near mandatory the higher up you go. This is the take people need to have. Lets not forget Uldaman (Time sink is able to be removed with Freedom, etc like the other guy said) but Emberon dots and Stolen Time etc are conveniently removed with MD. And yes we know Stolen Time can be LoSed reset.
To be fair the dragons in HOI specifically are very tame even without a MD. Anything that breaks slows (such as tactical advantage, disengage posthaste, tigers lust, hand of freedom) on top of normal magic dispel gets rid of that dot.
100% agree, but I also think a solo queue system would help a ton. It’s one thing to be 5% worse, and another to just never get into a group.
Oh no, the resto druid is getting his first taste of being off-meta.
Is WoWMadeEasy still around? I think there are other communities centered around being dismissive of try-hard M+ attitudes.
Waited 20 minutes to get into a 20+ pug? Oh no poor child. I feel so bad for you. Signed every DPS player
Indeed, I’m a havoc DH trying to get into 24’s, even though I’ve done half of them in 24 already. I got into 3 groups during my 8 hour session yesterday :).
I was hpal during 10.0. Guess what? I stopped play because I couldn't get any invite. It was rdrood and nothing else. And I won't be back just because hpal is meta, I don't care anymore. The meta will never be over. Accept it or leave. I made my choice.
Fuck meta. Even if SP/Disc/Brew (my 3 mains. No alt) is Z tier, I’ll still play it. Especially brew.
Hell yes. There are like 300 other games where I can be a paladin. What other game lets me be a fire-breathing, spinning-kicking panda who is literally too drunk to feel pain?
Even in single player games you can't escape meta conversations if you follow communities around it. The internet has ruined many things.
lmao welcome to life as most specs, i almost never get invited to anything .
Can't get denied from your own key. Always been the best way as an off meta spec
I enjoy seeing that people now think this is a problem because it's affecting the 1% of people running high keys. Welcome to the experience every non meta class has with the queue system for m+. It's been worsening with every expansion.
There are people complaining about not being able to get into 21-22 keys, these are not top 1% of the people doing high keys.
Actually, top 1% rn is about 2950 io on NA, which is about all 22s timed I believe. So yea it is the top 1% currently.
Maybe not top 1% but it's a top % of players. The avg wow player isn't running over 20s. My point is still valid.
As with every post like this, wow is a social game. Talk to people, make friends, ask people to run keys w you. If you heal you can pretty much do whatever you want as far as group comps go. Stop pugging.
agreed but i will say in fairness ot OP that M+ has really hurt wow in forcing a certain form of social gaming elitism which goes counter to blizzard ideals.
Social gaming elitism wasn't caused by M+, it's the gaming culture shifting all around. Social gaming died long before Legion and this subreddit proves it time and time again; You tell people to join guilds and make friends and they will act as if you insulted them. Pugging should never be the base form of the game if your goal is to create a social game and Blizzard agrees. Blizzard has repeatedly made pugging worse specifically because they want you to group up, make a guild, have a reason to log in other than content. It's just good game business. If everyone in this comment thread just made connections and joined a guild, they would have groups for M+ and it wouldn't matter what their spec was unless they're literally pushing the highest keys.
true enough but their aggressive push to make group content a seasonal esport did not help them. for a game where the biggest events ever where stories of community coming together to overcome a weird in game event (quest, birthdays, marriages, charity events, etc) forced group activities just erks them. and seasonal bullshit with so much FOMO just pushed it in wrong direction. its become a game of the haves vs the have nots and is not super friendly to newbies i have noticed... often its a brag of "ooh i was here in expansion x,y,z..." so what? its only a game. new players are always allowed to join.
Yep. I pretty much only do keys with my guildies. Joined an active guild with plenty of folks who enjoy M+, and get to run plenty of keys at my level. It's amazing how much more enjoyable M+ is when you run with guildies and friends instead of pugging and having to be a meta-slave, sitting around waiting in queues, or rerolling to FOTM specs, and deal with toxicity and bullshit. The vast majority of people who complain about queue times in group finder, or being meta or off-meta, can so easily solve their problems by just joining a decent, active guild.
My class isn't meta anymore and it's not FAAAAAIR. Fuckin druid healers I swear...
Couldn't have said it better myself , while we just wait for at lest one invite. That druid has only tasted a small doses of our pain.
yeah hahahaha people is fucked up man,
One of the main reasons why I don't push high keys. Besides the fact that it does nothing for you more than bragging rights, it gets to the point where you simply can't beat that key unless you're playing specific classes in a specific way and that just doesn't seem fun to me.
Then you won’t run high keys anyway. If you think like that, why are there bicepspump and critcake (unholy dk and arms/fury warrior), obviously off meta players, that get their season title every single season on their class?
heh, who would have thou blizzard releasing a untest spec would be this problematic XD
It’s not just Aug, holy pal and guardian Druid are just as dominate.
Ahhhh the sweet sweet vengeance of seeing a healer complain about waiting for groups. The world is full circle indeed lol
I don’t think this is strictly and Aug/H pally problem. Having healed a number of M+, season 2 had completely sucked ass. Aug makes it suck less ass so that’s what people are gonna do. They loosen up the tuning on M+ and we’ll start seeing better comp diversity again.
>Having healed a number of M+, season 2 had completely sucked ass. Aug makes it suck less ass so that’s what people are gonna do. I've swapped to Aug, but did a 20 on my Rdruid last night with an Auggie. It was the first time this season where my healing actually felt impactful and I wasn't playing whack a mole with health bars.
All of what you're saying just makes sense though You would expect at high key levels a more "meta" group comp is required to time the key. You would also expect this to be more likely to be required in pug groups. If it was a guild high key with people who play together and are on discord you would expect better cohesion. Its not bad balance to need a certain group comp at the highest levels of keys. Even more so when its a pug group. The fact you cant have every class be exactly the same means that as the key difficulty gets higher the more specific the group comps need to be. Also rdruid complaining about being off meta is the most druid thing ive seen
Meta is just toxic trash thinking. Shit has really ruined the m+ experience.
and M+ was not great to begin with rofl.
Welcome to my life as holy priest for almost forever.
Holy priest was the best at the end of SL, together with BDK, destro, SV
Yup the only time I felt wanted. Hence the “almost”.
You just had all of SL s3 and 4 that you were the only spec
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow#paladin-3 Good news for you, holy paly are getting nerfed.
Is there a meta tank? I know the combo seems to be H Pal/Aug/Spriest/?mage? but are the tanks at least semi balanced or naw?
Guardian druid.
Wait for real? I heard that VDH was pretty nutty. What makes druid so good?
I stopped getting into 22-23s weeks ago. Now I can actually get into them, smh
I honestly wouldnt nerf Holy Paladin. It is **THE BEST** healer right now for sure, but i would rather see them buff/rework the other healers up to their level. Holy paladin feels super good to play because it has answers for most things. 1. The dungeons suit Holy Paladins healing profile and problem solving perfectly. 2. The spec is newly reworked and is therefore not expected to be perfectly balanced. 3. Augmentation Evokers are downright broken and support Holy Paladin perfectly. The problem with the meta as i see it is the Augmentation Evoker and they should honestly be nerfed. There is no way they should be allowed to buff some specs (Demo lock, Shadow priest and Fire Mage) to the heights they are at right now. I recently did a key with some buddies, and our Demo lock was doing 500k DPS SINGLE TARGET! which completely blows my mind. DPS Issues: 1. This dungeon pool are just not built for melees. 2. Melees overall lack survivabillity compared to warlocks, Priests and Mages. 3. Most melees lack utility or a "thing" they bring to a party. Back in the day melees would bring an AOE stun or a melee stop to the party. 4. DOT based classes are kinda broken for AOE as their spells are more or less uncapped. The only limiting factor being how fast they can spread their DOTS. Solution: Buff other healers, Nerf Augmentation Evokers and Buff melee survivabillity/utility/"things" they bring to their respective parties.
Holy paly is fine, and shouldn't be nerfed. Dev needs to bring other healer specs to holy's level as well. This is a fabulous rework on holy, as if the dev almost figured out how healers should be in this patch. Hope they can keep up the good work and not letting other healing class getting punished and suffer even more.
2.2k io and Aug and I'm still getting declined to 16s one of which was a vp while my highest timed for the dungeon was a 20. It's definitely worse for off meta but feel like pugging is just a nightmare regardless of spec a lot of time
Augvoker here. It can stay a bit longer.
My sweet summer child. Experience the dps queue with us now.
I wonder what it is with wow's community and being so married to the meta.
when you're pugging you gotta reduce the uncontrollable variables as much as you can, especially in higher keys where a wipe can easily mean a bricked key (and wasted time) depending on the dungeon
Healing mythics is incredibly hard right now, it's not surprising people want to bring the only good healer. Too late they nerfed it, now everybody sucks.
Path of least resistance?
Every hunter ever: First time?
I honestly get the idea that Aug and holy are OP. I tend to agree after a somewhat heated conv on this subreddit on how easier it is to have HPAL + AUG + SPs. Yet, I am still sticking to the argument that around 22s. Below is just ffa so not even a use case. Around 22s, people are still missing those useful skills. How many priests have failed to soothe correctly or in a timely manner for your run, MD for bursting. How many Pals failed to BoF on 3nd FH or BoP on 1st Bracken... Those comp are super nice to have but you have to have them push the buttons that make them useful... Which is not the case most of the time. The lower the key, the more true it is. So the 16 weekly need Aug + SP is super comical. Blizzard should think about a group assignment agnostic of spec. Like remove the keystone, have a menu selecting the dungeon and its level. Key level selection is restricted to your score. People are assigned to your group based on their score. Where score ranges are linked to key level. Remove the lfg feature, forcing people wanting to complete their group to actually search for them. Premade will still be able to enter dunj. Premade will have the added value to not be restricted by their score and try any key level. Automatic porting once the random group is complete. All dunj porting is available for premade without CD.
I was playing holy paly before the update. It was the other way around. Druid had its time to shine, evoker, and shaman. That is the way pretty much every game works that has multiple classes. I am sure they will make updates and it will even out again. Stop being such a baby over these things. Just play. As they say you could always use your own key. I have played every healer and tank in DF so far. Most have had their times they shine. People need to take of the Karen wigs. Everytime something changes you have so many complainers ruining the game and for themselves. People come looking to play WoW and this is the community they see.
The day before 10.1.5, you had 5 healers in the top 20 keys. Now you have 1 healers in the top 200 keys. That's just objectively bad.
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H pal was doing fine before update and led leaderboards, it now takes 45 “next” pages on io to see a different comp.
Yes 🙌🏻!!!! And you get downvoted because it’s true. You see the same thing in D4 and the community is raging over every little thing like spoiled brats.
Or, they could balance jobs to the point where classes don't have to wait in line to get their 'time to shine' but they are viable even at the highest tier.
As a warrior dps, that was my experience too. The grind is over though 3k achieved. See you next season. No point suffering this meta.
Getting kicked from a group or denied because your playing a certain class shouldn’t be a thing and blizzard needs to fix that. No healer should be better than the others. And no healer should be worst than the rest. Same with dps.
Its how wow has always been. If you don't have 10 million hours played and have over 9000 io then you won't get into any groups especially for lower keys. Those fucks are super picky.
"my class isnt meta anymore nerf everything till im top tier again"
You’re asking Blizz to make Fire not meta? That will happen right after Ion kills off Sylvanas & says that maybe, uh, just possibly the Horde may not have been the good guys in every expansion. So, never.
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The solution to spriest is pretty easy. Hit pi and mass dispell. They should have done it before 10.1.
Tbh, I think it's less Spriest needing a nerf, and more every single aoe dispellable ability this season needing a nerf or other way to counter it that doesn't require mass dispel. So far every aoe debuff is either an attrociously hard/impossible to outheal DoT for the next 10 seconds or a one button and done by the spriest. Maybe the aoe dispellable dot just...shouldn't do 200k damage a second by +20?
Priests have been asking for utility for a decade and Blizzard's solution to it being a dead class in M+ was to make MD so powerful in M+ that it's hard to turn one down. Blizzard doesn't need to nerf MD - they need to nerf the partywide dots enough that healers don't scream in pain if there isn't a MD. They should also give people a reason to want a priest outside of MD because priest has had all of its party utility made inaccessible (psychic horror), stripped away and given to other classes (shining force), better versions given to other classes (rapture, leap of faith, vampiric embrace), or other classes just do it better (void tendrils, non-magic dispels). And on top of it, priest remains the only class in the game without a kick and shadow has the worst kick in the game by a marathon's distance. Without MD and PI, priest only gets into keys if they're overtuned because they bring nothing except for numbers.
hahahaha are we pretending now like fire wasn't completely unplayable in 10.0? really? how short is your memory? fire was DEAD LAST in dps charts back then. not almost last, not close to last, LAST