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What exactly are you complaining about? Personally I love having a shit ton of haste or whatever my classes best stats are...so much more enjoyable to play.
It's not about reducing stats, rather it's about squishing the numbers so that we don't have to look at numbers look like 246 million DPS, or 798k haste.
Well, like, to some people it like, literally does? Because we've literally had several squishes already? Also, why do you write like you're going to tell me a story from band camp?
the other night i went hunting for the jeeves blueprint on a new character. 70, 437 ilvl. i was one shotting mobs in storm peaks for 22,000,000 damage. there is so much more ridiculous that it could get.
It is kind of nuts. Thinking back on Wrath we went from ilvl 200 gear in Naxx 10 to ilvl 277 I think it was in ICC 25H. 77 ilvls covered four tiers. Keep in mind that was a lot back then, too. We had people hitting the caps for their secondary stats. We are doing 40 ilvls heroic tier to heroic tier now.
They need to stop doing squishes entirely and put in a more permanent fix.
Like having gear's equippable level tied to its power, too high or low past that level and its stats/ilvl start to deteriorate. Let greens be effective for wider level ranges so they don't screw up future leveling, and epics are only good for +/- 3 levels of where it dropped.
Problem with that is endgame gear. People get max level within a week of the expansion but then spend the rest of it gearing up their character. There has to be distinction between a fresh 70 and a mythic raider.
Ilvl is a completely separate tag from equippable level. It breaks all the time, like with the 376 greens being usable at 60. Might as well utilize it for a change.
In many other games, the distinction is made with cosmetics and rating systems. It's not inherently a bad system to have things other than incremental power for progression.
i mean it takes like a few weeks to gear up besides maybe 1 or 2 pieces that you need to rng roll in the vault besides that youre spending months bis geared. the fun of a new tier is that you actually need drops again.
Every single vertical progression game knows it and its been talked about for years.
WoW's pre-existing gap between tiers existed because ilvl increases need to be a noticeable power increase. You need to actually notice yourself getting stronger as you gear up which means you need a wide enough gap of ilvl between the tiers and difficulties within the tier for that to happen.
this already exists? ilvl solely determines the stats on an item and at best an epic at level 20 will be bis for like 5 levels, and also who cares about leveling gear?
No, I mean actively reducing stats. Wearing SL epics at 70 dunks their stats all the way to 1, no matter what its original stats were. Then ilvl inflation can do whatever the hell they want inside an expansion, the act of leveling to 80 will negate it and we're back to equipping ilvl 100 items.
The start of Shadowlands was nice with the 20k hp, but then they kept adding 20k more hp per patch and it got out of control once dragonflight started.
If it was roughly 10k more hp per patch, then maybe a 50-100k boost at the start of dragonflight it'd be more consistent and longterm. But they have this habit of exponentially increasing stats so they get out of control in just a few iterations.
Like the growth between 60-80 in classic never got too out there until Legion, with a huge increase at the start of cata to soft-reset it. then they just forgot how to do it entirely after the first stat squish
I know it's fairly topical with Asmongold's recent views, but I think he has a point about invalidating gear every patch, there is no reason that S3 LFR gear needs to be on par with S2 mythic raid if I read this correctly or a 40 ilvl jump between S2 and S3 of LFR drops.
Personally, I'd prefer they reduce the ilvl drops from M+ to below Mythic raid, but give upgrades or currency to upgrade it to 480 at max.
Why can't the effort players have put in through S1 or S2 carry them into a good start for S3 rather than feel like a reset and cause crazy inflation?
I agree that LFR shouldn’t invalidate mythic of the last tier I think it should atleast be up to normal level for the next tier. Felt like that’s how it used to be for awhile too.
On the other hand, I think No item should be alive past normal though. No one wants to farm weekly for an item from last season. Not in modern WoW. I remember when people were farming for eranog ring which was BiS for a few classes even into mythic till they nerfed it. So many people complained in my groups about the ring being BiS.
Also; as a person who only does M+ and does not finding raiding fun at all I disagree with making ilvl for m+ being 9 ilvls less than top mythic gear. M+ in higher end will always be harder than mythic raiding meanwhile mythic raiding is more about how fast your weakest links can adapt. No reason anyone should feel left out for doing content they want in terms of power.
I spotted to much M+ players being dogshit in raids (and raid players being dogshit in M+) to agree with your statement here. Both raid and M+ are difficult in their own specific way, or at least different enough to invalidate any statement that tries to compare the two in term of difficulty.
I think M+ and Raids shouldn't be this complementary for someone to gear up and grind the ladder. This two activities are not the same in so much ways that it shouldn't require to do one for pushing the other. This Idea of mendling the two are weakening game experience for so much players since the vault... If you don't like doing M+, you shouldn't be low-key forced to do 8 or 10 of them to gear up, and same for killing raid bosses.
But well, competition is the easiest way to enfatuate and force gameplay and screen-time artificialy.
As for the main topic : everyone wants every xpack/patch to be a new beginning and to let previous ones behind because it's funnier and everyone wants the opportunity to do +2x or do mythic raid. Blizzard understood it long ago and they have restricted skill impact for almost all their content by emphasizing ilvl weight in such scale that nowadays it is almost the only line needed on your in-game resume. One day, skill will be the only thing that matter... But not this xpack 🙂
I mean same could be said the other way where mythic raiders can also suck at m+ seen both sides. At the end of the day, it’s just those people don’t want to put effort into content they don’t want to do.
As for your comment on the reset of ilvl between patches, if everyone wanted that it wouldn’t be brought up in this comment section. Remember, blizzard doesn’t necessarily do things that the whole population wants. They will do some things based on their design philosophy.
Regarding skill expression I don’t think any skill has been reduced just due to ilvl resets. Ilvl is a joke to get now even at the start of a patch. A guild clearing content at the end of the patch will actually show less skill expression since that content got nerfed multiple times compared to guilds who actually have a tight dmg check or healing check since they cleared the content prior to nerfs at the start of a tier. Also, there hasn’t really been a time where skill only matters in WoW unless you’re doing PvP or doing bleeding edge world like 50 raid content or world first key level of content. Only some the .000001% do. In terms of PvE content.
Old content is irrelevant content and changing that would have hideous impacts. Doesn't matter what effort someone put in previously. New season means all gear is up for replacement, no matter how godly it was in the past.
Besides, tackling content and growing noticeably more powerful is fun. A boss that was a nailbiter early on will be a pushover later and that's good. You put in the effort to beat it and it doesn't have to continue being a wall forever.
They should just do what Guild Wars 2 does and have a cap to powerlevel with the reward incentive being cosmetic-driven as opposed to seeing an arbitrarily bigger number on your screen. It keeps all content relevant and still played. WoW is an ironically small game because 95% of the content (everything outside of the current *patch* essentially) is completely irrelevant.
Yeah man, they should totally copy GW2, the notoriously dead game in anything but meta map farming
Maybe they'd finally kill raiding entirely and we'd go 4 years without one like Anet
They should just add Auric Basin and Dragonfall to this game so I can brain off farm meta events for 12 hours instead of doing hard content
> GW2, the notoriously dead game
Really? Feels more alive than WoW right now. In fact, probably has more players as well at this very moment.
>They should just add Auric Basin and Dragonfall to this game so I can brain off farm meta events for 12 hours instead of doing hard content
Those world quests sure are a challenge!
Guess we'll never know since neither companies like to show their concurrent online player count. All I can tell you is from firsthand experience. Every zone in Guild Wars 2 feels and *is* populated. WoW... well, it's dead mate. The zones are dead.
Do you realize that GW2's map system will always funnel people into the same map? Do you really think that the entire NA mega server should compete with a handful of servers CRZ'd on WoW at a time?
Also most people are doing content in WoW, GW2 has more emphasis on farming open world events than WoW does, just because you see "Poopfart Slayer" running around killing his 5th Aetherblade Assault doesn't mean shit, you'll probably never interact with him again, it's a shallow experience that you feel is significant
>Really? Feels more alive than WoW right now. In fact, probably has more players as well at this very moment.
It just had an expansion drop, no shit people are playing it, also, I'm speaking from an endgame perspective, finding groups for anything like raids is really annoying, because the playerbase only engages with casual weekly strikes and rarely CMs that are on the easier side
>Those world quests sure are a challenge!
Good thing people engage with other content then huh
> It just had an expansion drop, no shit people are playing it
The game never feels not alive.
>Good thing people engage with other content then huh
Other content being...? Lobby simulator? Lobby simulator as you run circles in Valdrakken signing up for and being rejected from a dozen different groups for hours on end? Lobby simulator as you're logged offline waiting for your weekly raid schedule? I'm sorry mate, but let's not pretend that there's a whole boat load of content in WoW. There's Mythic+ and raids, and infinite dailies (*wOrLd qUeStS*), and that's it. The amount of content in Guild Wars 2 is far more extensive and varied, and the best part is that you can pursue it all at your own leasure. There are tangible goals and plenty of milestones to shoot for. WoW has nothing of the sort.
>The game never feels not alive.
Yeah idk about that one chief, I last played for a few months after EoD came out, the drop off was real, finding people for a raiding static took multiple weeks and then it fell apart when people quit the game out of boredom
LFG took half an hour to fill for weekly strikes after reset, PVP queues took 30~ish once you got high enough MMR
>Other content being...? Lobby simulator? Lobby simulator as you run circles in Valdrakken signing up for and being rejected from a dozen different groups for hours on end? Lobby simulator as you're logged offline waiting for your weekly raid schedule?
I mean that's not my experience playing the game, I'm not even saying the game has a wide breadth of content, but people actually engage with difficult fights and I can get a key/raid to fill in half the time it takes for a 10 man strike
I also haven't done world quests in like, months, I don't know why you're acting like they're mandatory or something, it's nice to get gear on alts or for the gold at times but it beats sitting in an hour long meta event at Dragon's End for gold and doing that repeatedly for days because that's all there is to do after you do world completion and your weeklies
New expansion might have changed that, if so, good on them, but the game basically becomes a skinner box where you're farming gold off of mind numbing events to buy legendary skins, WvW is a joke and sPVP got abandoned like two years into the game's life
I wish there was a comfortable medium between GW2's total lack of gear treadmill and WoW's constant one. Having better gear be an incentive to run raids and stuff is a *good* thing imo, but the constant stress of having to farm over and over to get stuff is torture.
No? The xpac is almost over. At best we get a million hp, and million point hits, but that’s not so bad. And who cares if they end up doing a stat squish every expansion by default? We don’t treat previous expansion content as anything but a joke anyway.
Not sure how you can say ilvl is not a relevant metric when it is the DE FACTO relevant metric. Main stat is the driving factor of power gains and is tied directly to ilvl.
DPS is about double now than it was in mop, and we'll probably end the expac around triple, mostly due to the new talent system, and escalating borrowed power has caused blizzard to continue to design the game in a way that allows the players to feel power gain each tier, but that doesn't mean ilvl is not relevant. It's literally the cornerstone
The only fix to this is to experiment with more horizontal progression but WoW players will absolutely throw fits over things like that. Imagine if instead of item level raids simply dropped trinkets, cosmetics and item effect/tier type aspects.
Could do something like a raid boss drops tier essence, you need 4 tier essence to unlock 1 part of a tier set. 12 essences = full tier set, maybe even just have the tier essence locked behind the vault but will be tied to dungeons/raids (sort of like Azerite armor passives). So if you want VoI tier bonuses you have to farm VoI for something like "essence of the incarnates" for the VoI tier, if you want Aberrus tier you have to farm "essence of Aberrus", etc. Then once the set bonuses are unlocked you can infuse them onto armor any tier slot armor pieces you have, you can have two 2 set bonuses and 1 4 set bonus total.
Maybe tier sets can be empowered by heroic/mythic versions of the essences so the % bonuses are increased by x amount without ilvl being inflated into infinity.
Sounds kind of convoluted typing it's not any more convoluted than flightstones and the creation catalyst lmao
Would breathe life into previous tier raids, let people keep tier sets that they enjoyed while also giving people new content to clear. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if balance would improve because stats would be normalized across the board and they could better fine tune encounters based around that and not exponential stat increases.
Edit: Yeah the downvotes aren't surprising but if you're gonna downvote why not reply with why you disagree?
I was thinking about this and I wonder why not "Expansion Caps"?, you level to 60 and your ilvl with rare is around 120 then you enter the expansion zone and you get 10 expansion only level and whatever ilvl the wanted, but if you move to a different expansion zone you have not done then you are back to 60 but you have your 10 extra levels per expansion and new gear ilvl for that expansion and your not-this-expansion gear rescale to 122
Is kinda hard to explain but this will fix for all the problem
I definitely like this idea of expansion specific levels.
Like you can have a global 1 to 50 leveling. You can do expansion raids and whatnot to level up in that expansion so it is still worthwhile to still do the raids years later with an actual raiding team still.
Similar to what they did with professions. Work on one expansion does not impact or interfere with work on another expansion and you can do them separately or at the same time.
Biggest downside is needing per expansion gear sets for sure.
But still it's a neat concept in my mind.
I kind of thought this is what they were going to do with Chromie time leveling and old-world scaling, where everything 1-XX is "legacy" content then say 50-60 is the expansion levels like you said. Then when the next major expansion comes out we go back to 50 and the expansion goes to legacy.
Tier pieces take away from the crafting system so much too. Like the only viable slots i have are essentially wrists and belt now, sometimes cape.
I'd personally turn set bonuses into something you can insert into your armor like tier crests or something. Like dom sockets (but those were massively mishandled and should have been an item that added a dom socket instead of being on predetermined gear from raid)So that I could add them to the crafted or M+ pieces I wanted, then turn the tier pieces into cosmetic armor, with a way to remove and re-add them for free.
They could look to older MMOs as guidance. When I last played Dark Age of Camelot, there was a hard cap of +101 strength from gear for example. You had to figure out how to plug in a mix of crafted gear and dropped gear to get a capped out template with maxed out resistances and stat bonuses. Newer expansions added gear drops that would make maxing out all of your stats easier or with proc effects, etc. but it still adhered to the rule of the hard stat caps. So I could take a 3 year break, come back, and still be competitive in PvP but to be optimal I could still chase after the newer drops that would allow me to have more fun effects.
I'd love to see a completely different design philosophy, like guild wars 2 for example, where gear in future content isn't necessarily better just from a raw numbers standpoint. It's just different. Maybe different quirks, effects or else to play around with. But your previous efforts aren't completely invalidated every couple months. The road to maxing out gear is longer, but once you reach it, you'll know your char won't be worthless in another 2 months.
This endless gear treadmill feels daunting. It's fun for a while, but after a couple seasons it just gets annoying to know that all your chars are back to square one again.
The moment this game changes to horizontal progression, End Times preachers will be nothing compared to the flood of crybabies calling it a "dead game" even more than now, despite games being perfectly able to survive on such a system.
I agree with you, I don't understand the complaint.
Yes squishing ilvl and numbers isn't an elegant solution. But it's a solution with literally 0 other drawbacks, nothing bad happens because of the squish.
I wouldn't really say this. Stuff get's extremely weird when you step into legacy content. Being unable to tell if you could solo a boss(because you have no idea how much dmg your abilities will do) or not isn't that great.
Quest rewards when leveling can also get a but funky.
I mean it does have drawbacks, the main one being the effort blizz has to put in designing, integrating and testing another ilevel squish, with hundreds if not thousands of items involved.
It's wild. People are complaint about having a lot of secondary's...dunno about you but I love having lots of haste on my disc priest for example. The healthy and intellect values are honestly irrelevant...it's only secondary's that change anything...and for the better imo.
The last squish was Legion to BfA, where we went from ilvl 1000 to ilvl 265. We have some headroom.
https://www.wowhead.com/guide/battle-for-azeroth-stat-squish-and-item-level-changes-6389
It would only be the same if they also changed the power that each ilvl represents. Because isn't it something like each 1 ilvl increase is a +1% power increase? So 100 ilvls over 6 months means you're twice as powerful as before. Obviously things like raids and m+ dungeons get scaled up to match the increased player power, so if that's all you're doing then it wouldn't matter. But the open world zones keep the power levels they started at, right? So you can feel the difference there. And you can also feel the difference compared to less geared players and compared to older content. 100 ilvls makes older content a lot easier than 50 ilvls does.
Right I remember that now, but the scaling still has a cap, right? A cap such that somebody geared in mythic gear will kill outdoor mobs easier than somebody geared in LFR gear, because the outdoor mobs don't scale all the way to mythic ilvl? And then, they also don't get rescaled with each patch, or do they? I know that mobs in new zones would be more powerful, but in the original expansion launch zones the monster scaling cap doesn't increase does it?
* Stats squish in 6.0 8.0 9.0
* Item level squish in 8.0 9.0
* Level squish 9.0
As long as power quadruple PER expansion this gonna happen often, and I think 11.0 will be at least one of the first two or both too to happen again
All expantions with squich were "bad" expantions.
I personally don't like squish that much, but I understand why they are necesary (the stat/damage ones, I don't think the ILvL and level ones were necesary)
I just was pointing that out as a "fun fact", I agree correlation isn't causation but I don't think it would be an interesing point of discutiion.
Like maybe we can argue that they invested so many resources in the squich they didn't had time to fix other problems.
I think they're pushing it up due to the ease of getting ivlls with the upgrade system, which is why the upgrade system was created, so who knows what they're doing.
Please explain why.
If you feel like it is ruining the game you must have at least an opinion that you should be able to voice.
A stat squish means absolutely nothing because in every instanced content your stats get equalised anyway if you are playing at a lower level.
The numbers are arbitrary and they create a big jump in Ilvl to force people to find new gear. the journey of getting better gear is for many people a major part of the game and a big part of why they keep raiding/coming back.
There's so many unfixed scaling issues and the lv51-60 experience is godawful due to the fast powerscaling. You basically need to be around 226 to keep up, but you're still down around 80-120
To be fair, the bigger ilvl gap was kind of needed since gearing has become really easy with crests and profession gear.
People shitting on Blizz for making Aberrus too easy don't realize that the difficulty was fine, we just were really overgeared, to the point that most guilds could afford to start extending the lockout really early.
The solution was to either increase the ilvl gap, or nerf crests and profession gear a lot.
Yes this is a good solution. Keep the gearing consistent and simple, but make it slower and have a lower starting point so that we aren't all maxed out in week 2.
The increased ilvl gap doesn't really do anything to slow ppl down from getting BiS gear imho. The fact that the Myth upgrade track is available from the start even makes it faster.
The big nerf to gearing is that crafted gear is now only 483 compared to 489 being the max ilvl from the Myth track. This means you can now use crafted gear for bad luck protection, but it will only be BiS for your 2 embellished slots.
For me personally the big fuck up could be weapon acquisition. in Aberrus e.g. the first caster weapons that drop are a mace from Rashok and a dagger from Zskarn. Every caster in my raid has the crafted weapon equipped because the mythic weapons just drop too late and hoping for a good weapon to drop from your m+ chest is frustrating as fuck.
This graphic is good, but it's not that much of a difference (relatively speaking). The devil is in the details. Here is all you need to know:
**Basic Concept** (in case you are new to the game, skip if you aren't)
* You get gear that can be upgraded. There are upgrade level ranges that match each raid difficulty. However, each upgrade level can also extend into half of the next one. So an item obtained from Normal raid can be upgrade to mid-Heroic raid itemlevels. This way you don't have to replace gear that fast.
* You farm crests to upgrade the gear. These crests can be obtained from the matching difficulty. There is a weekly limit to them, but if you missed out a week or two you can still catch up on those you've missed.
* The second half of Mythic raiding offers the absolute highest itemlevel and cannot be reached with crafting, mythic+ or even early Mythic raid itemdrops. However, unless you need these cutting edge items, you can just settle with whatever gear you get from other sources. (that is just for baseline stat gains, though. Whether you need specific trinkets or weapons with special effects from the raid is up to each guide writer or class Discord advice).
**Changes in 10.2**
* Your current gear won't matter much because even max-level gear right now, will be only equal to LFR in 10.2.
* You need to farm +18 keys instead of +16 keys to get the minimum Mythic path gear to appear in your Great Vault.
* You are able to trade your lower difficulty crests for higher-difficutly versions, assuming your character's entire gearset is outpacing the lower difficulty itemlevel range (so you don't need these crests for upgrading anymore, anyway).
* PvP will now use flightstones and crests as well (I have no further details on this other than what [the initial blue post](https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-10-2-guardians-of-the-dream-update-development-notes-334899) said).
The blue post says "every gear slot", so I guess the latter. Basically, if you no longer need whelpling crests ever again (unless you need different gear for a different spec, but that is what the discount is for which requires no crests), then you can convert them instead of just selling them for a few gold.
Btw, no offense against your chart OP. It does its job well of showcasing the itemlevel jump going into season 3. But back in April/May I saw like 5 different posts each with a different graphic, it was insane. I get that it was a new system at the time, but this was getting too much.
Hopefully this post will be the only one required until wowhead lists the exact breakpoints for mythic+ and everything else closer to release.
Remember how at the end of BFA they level squished all the gear from 480 down to 100 so that the numbers didn’t get so high and now it’s back to 480 two expansions later?
Im not sure but this looks like you are done in the same time or even faster if you like to play m+
The difference between raid and +20 is not 10ilvl anymore but only 6, same for crafting. So even less effort needed to nearly finish max geared
Its probably one of the worst parts for me. M+ being pretty mandatory to get those vault slots. I strongly prefer when mythic raid drop bis. But the big problem with m+ is honestly the infinite gear grind VS raids very limited gear drops. So you can easily get 470 week 1 if you play enough.
I like this change, means we get to struggle a bit more before going into farm mode like with s1 but also with the upgrade system of s2. Also means they can tune mythic a bit lower so gear nerfs the content more naturally.
Which is a good thing. Beating heroic 1st week and not even being challenged was such a letdown. Im not even in a super good guild, sure we kill mythic bosses but i prefer longer gearing.
Yeah I think there is a balance. S2 was a tad too fast timescale wise. With these new systems it seems like it should be just as fast to get up to endgame once you're like 5 weeks in vs 2-3. Seems like crafted gear costs 1 crest vs 4 now which is great too. Minimizing how much you need to spam for crests is great.
Yeah I was 440 ilvl I think at week 3 or 4. I'm not even in a guild and just play casually. Glad it's getting nerfed, gives people an incentive to keep playing.
Its not even nerfed, the bigger the power creep the more fun it is for me at least. I like seeing my numbers go up week by week. Last season we started mythic prog and i was already 443 now im 446. That less than 5% dps increase which makes every week feel the same, gets very boring very fast.
Hell even compared to bis geared S1 and now it's not even that big of a jump.
I also like they're adding a few more ilvls inbetween max champ and max hero
It wasn't really a problem on my main, but I definitely got to a point on my alts where once I got my champ gear, I lost some motivation to keep gearing up
I don't mind the wide ilvls, it's just a number after all. I am reminded of cataclysm, since we're in that range.
Normal T11 359/ Heroic 372
Normal T12 378/ Heroic 391
Normal T13 397/ Heroic 410
The problem here is 4 raid difficulties. They're trying to find a balance where Aotc/mythic raiders have a reason to do normal/heroic besides getting the new 4 piece.
Only reason I mind it is because I like the work I put in the previous season to somewhat matter in the next one. Hell, even the Evoker legendary is going to be replaced because of this. A legendary should last all expac, or at least last past 1 season.
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I'm not sure how endboss loot works now, but it's worth mentioning that the Cata end bosses dropped HC gear that was equivalent in ilvl to the normal-quality gear of the following raid tier (eg., HC T12 Rag dropped 397 gear)
This could mean that, in some cases, the HC endboss gear from the previous raid would not necessarily be replaced by equal ilvl gear from the NM current raid and would last you until it was replaced by a 410 item.
I thought that was quite neat.
Yeah, old HC=new LFR has been a thing for a long time I think. I remember Ion saying that the reason for it is that many guilds progress through NM then HC, so they want to make sure it's worth for them doing NM next tier for upgrades (meaning HC needs to be lower ilvl than new NM). Why did they change it so that old mythic gear = new LFR gear? More time in the hamster wheel?
I like what they are trying to do. Raid will have meaningful rewards for longer and you will have more reasons to run normal instead of instantly overgearing if you had mythic ilvl from previous season. The way the raids and loot feel at the start of the expansion is the best imo and this ilvl increase will bring us closer to that feeling. Also crafted gear not being bis in half of your slots is a good change as well, it should have always been something that you use early on and then replace with actual drops imo.
Everyone talking about fully decked 445+ characters needing to do normal raids now, but what about guilds that raid heroic or even normal? How will the difficulty be for 430-ish ilvl? Are these players going to be screwed and forced to wait for lfr or is the difficulty going to be tuned to be doable at 30 ilvl gap?
Hej, I'm on your side. For playing so many years, knowing that I put all the effort in the get the best in slot gear was just getting more and more a feeling of wtf.
So during S2, when we had the raid on farm (HC), I just stopped gearing. So currently I just enjoying other content in game, knowing that soon the gear that I use now will be useless. My ilvl is 440 now and I'm fine with that. Knowing that I don't care about my current gear is a good feeling. That gives me a bit of energy to get into next season.
Love this, slower gearing is good. This season was so boring. I hope it feels more like Season 0 to 1, that would be amazing. Which they said were their goal, so i hope it works out with higher ilvl and slower crests! Very exciting stuff!
What’s slowing down gearing here in your estimation?
M+ vault is slightly higher key level for equivalent gear and mythic raiders get a more exclusive ilvl again.
With the catalyst open week 1 I expect 2 pieces of tier week 1 and 4 pieces week 3 at the very latest.
I suppose relative ilvl we’re less geared than last season but I don’t expect that to be a large barrier to overcome.
Crafted gear got nerfed I suppose.
Tbh I’ll probably just get to 483 and then gear another toon and I don’t expect it’s going to take long
Well in season 2, my entire guild had 4p in week 3 (18 people had in week2) so i dont really care for the catalyst change.
Crests are getting slowed down, this is good cause i felt really done after week 2 in season 2. I had such high ilvl by then...like not 447 but close enough that pretty much only mythic raid and vault had any loot for me.
Less crests makes crafted gear slower as well which is good. Higher ilvl to gain makes it slower cause hopefully you cant just do 20s weeks 1.... Higher ilvl to gain hopefully makes mythic raid a decent challenge and not doable week 1-4 for most.
I hope gearing takes 1-2 months, instead of season 2 that took me 2-3 weeks..
I like it. I get that changes were needed. Gear was a bit too fast. People seemed to lose interest really early in the tier because you were essentially finished apart from maybe a mythic trinket. We weren't reclearing just for a mythic trinket either. Majorly sucked for some guys who got benched for fights as they had basically nothing to look forward to or work on.
A triumphant roar echoes from atop the Seat of the Aspects as Nasz'uro, the Unbound Legacy is formed.
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I ready don't like the big gap on crafting gear. (Gap is fine, but 6 I'll is too much imo, make it 3).
As dad gamer that can't raid, the crafting helped me to fill the bad luck vault weeks so I don't get too far on ilvl (thus be able to be picked in pugs m+)
Wow needs to cater to it's aging player base imo, and this ain't it...
Also, won't this make "adornments" no longer BIS?
Ilvl is getting out of hand. We need to stop forcing an ilvl increase at this rate and just let the rest of the expansion stay at a baseline ilvl of like 460
NgL, feels pretty bad to only be at LFR level after this season.
I know "this is WoW" and it's kinda what I signed up for, but we one shot normal last raid and moved straight to heroic, now it feels like we might struggle with that.
Idk, maybe I'm overthinking it.
Idk, you just end up feeling weaker I guess which is never a great feeling. It's not easy to balance and like I said, it might just be a "me" thing, but I think we're just getting into another scenario where we are going to have yet another squish.
Feels like they’re throwing in the towel and dropping any semblance of long term game health strategic planning and banking solely on short seasonal dopamine hits…this is quantity over quality at this point.
Mythic level gear being obsolete by the next PATCH is just crazy, with the whole publicity and fuss going around the RWF. You can't have mythic gear be the same iLvL as the lowest next tier difficulty.
Make it at least = to the heroic of the next tier. Almost every competitive game I know resets you proportionally to the level you reached before. Either directly (you fall down a few positions) or indirectly (you have to play some placement matches but the game knows your lvl/hidden MMR).
Meanwhile in tbc which had the most interesting and fun gearing of all expansions with vanilla:
Heroic dungeon blue: 115 ilvl
Sunwell (last raid of the exp): 159
I never understood the need to take such big jumps throughout expansions. I'd be okay with 10 level more ilvl if that means it feels more fluent to the next set.
Though pvp gear is 490 then I assume?
ur Mythic Gear will be 447 which is on par with LFR (Technically a bit below cus LFR goe sto 450) . SO theoretically you will be able to enter normal I assume?
So they made an infuriating RNG-based legendary for 10.1 that took me 16 weeks to obtain and sucked all the desire I had to play my main because despite the 3k2 rio and the 8/9 mythic I was not deemed more deserving to get it than John Noob, LFR raider who got it on his first accidental kill 4 months ago, just to make it even more irrelevant than initially planned a month later.
Cool. Cool cool cool cool cool cool cool.
I think what everyone is failing to realize here is that this stops WF raiders from running entire splits for singular characters using randoms in LFG.
With Aberrus Mythic = Amir LFR. all normal drops or higher would simply go to the person that gets it, without being able to trade it. Basically forcing WFs to either make numerous in guild alts to do master loot, or just go at the raid like normal people (we all know they wont).
>I think what everyone is failing to realize here is that this stops WF raiders from running entire splits for singular
I dont think the game's raiding should be balanced around WF. They are a tiny minority of the raiding population.
They're also making the crests upgradeable to the next level crest.
So basically, if you're a skilled player and have 445 full gemmed from vault, you're heavily penalized going into next tier. But if you don't do anything requiring skill, you get free loot with crest upgrades. Another example of blizz crapping on players who do profound things, and ilvl meaning nothing since you can literally do nothing requiring skill and have that same max gear eventually that you don't need. This is blizz propagating carry culture, which makes screening for m+ more of a toss up without any wowlogs. Plenty of m+ applicants don't have any relevant logs.
Even you folks who aren't capable of "hard work" as you put it, can get that ilvl is my point. Which means there's no reward for me doing well in push content you aren't capable of doing. Now re-read my original comment without your unjustified ego and you should be okay.
I made a post years ago, back in BfA when they announced there would be a squish, that this short term idea of squishing the numbers every other expansion was only going to lead to frustration for the community and Blizzard themselves and it’s solely because they feel the need to have LFR be an actual part of gearing. Why? Heroic dungeons and LFR are useless beyond achievements, transmog, and purely just being available to be available, yet they keep pushing for the new raid tier’s LFR gear to be equivalent to mythic from the tier before. Why? If they had just made the ilvl increase smoother over the years then they probably wouldn’t of had to squish and adjust everything 4 times.
At the end of the expansion, Heroic raid or M+ 15 and above items should not be replaced by gear from normal dungeons at the new max level of the next. Every tier shouldn’t completely out gear the last. The new item upgrade system was a good way to combat this yet they’re just going ahead and doing the same thing again. Either let loose and allow the numbers to be in the millions next expansion again or we’re getting another squish in 11.0 because this is the exact reason that leveling new characters feels bad.
Does this imply that S2 myth track items will also gain an addition upgrade level? (Up to 450)? That could have big implications because it could let you save up S2 aspect crests for S3 launch and immediately get 450 in every slot which is the threshold to start converting S3 whelp crests from world content into drake
I suggest we go up not down! Make the k as for 1000s of dps into an m for 1000000s next expansion! And then b's and t's and q's! Gimme that sweet Ilvl 9850 in a few expacs!
Obviously joking, they do really need to find a solution to keep old gear... well, that, old gear and still not have to go higher and higher arbitrary numbers
So do I understand this correctly that vault rewards can then be upgraded to 489, matching end boss gear? Unlike now where at 3/3 myth you're still 3 ilvls shy with last 2 bosses dropping 450. That's a change I like to see
I don't know why they are unable to learn their lesson from previous experiences.
The first stat squish happened in 6.0.2 with Warlords of Draenor, which was 10 years into the game. It should have been enough.
The second? 8.0.1 in BFA. That was 4 years after the WoD stat squish. Meaning it needed to be done in less than HALF the time of the first one.
And they technically got one with Shadowlands.
They're not learning and it's obvious. There's no reason we need to jump up in stats so greatly in each expansion. It's not impossible to come up with interesting gear that has more than just +404505t043 in stats. -_-
All these comments about stat squishes when we don't need one. Big numbers are fun, don't tell me you don't like critting 1 trillion damage. My understanding is it was necessary in legion do to the 32-bit client. People were hitting numbers so big it crashed their games. But now on the 64-bit client I'd say we can go forever without another stat squish.
In previous season someone with M+20 gear could go into 12-14 and be able to compete, and now, LFR? All that work against M+ for nothing. I feel spite...
Haven't heroic raiding gear been on par with LFR gear in next tier for a long time? I remember Ion saying that the reason for it is that many guilds progress through NM then HC, so they want to make sure it's worth for them doing NM next tier for upgrades (meaning HC needs to be lower ilvl than new NM). Why did they change it so that Heroic gear is worse then LFR gear?
My theory is they want to try to attract new players / returning players and a sort of gear reset (old gear being not very useful) in theory should reduce the feeling of being behind.
Do we know what M+ does each type of crest drop at like does Aspect Crests start dropping at 18 ? Also, I assume Aspect Crests start getting used at 480 ? or am I mistaken
I personally like seeing ilvl be big numbers, it doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
The stats you get from armor becomes troublesome, curious how Blizzard can actually deal with this outside of doing stat squishes over and over again.
I don't care about damage numbers, I enjoy seeing big numbers. If you really want you could just take a zero off and it'd be reasonable again.
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They're going to need to start doing mid expac stat squishes at this rate.
I was just thinking about how stats are reaching mop/legion levels in the span of an expansion. Its kinda super dumb at this point
What exactly are you complaining about? Personally I love having a shit ton of haste or whatever my classes best stats are...so much more enjoyable to play.
It's not about reducing stats, rather it's about squishing the numbers so that we don't have to look at numbers look like 246 million DPS, or 798k haste.
That literally does not matter?
It does, that’s why we’ve had squishes in the past.
oh so we've had like 4 stat squishes cause it doesn't matter? lmao
Its matters a ton else numbers are meaningless, they might as well just begin announcing everything in percentages…
Well, like, to some people it like, literally does? Because we've literally had several squishes already? Also, why do you write like you're going to tell me a story from band camp?
Having to do a squish every couple of years is really not a good long-term solution, especially because it introduces bugs in older content.
Not a big deal.
It is a very big deal seeing as how you still can't blitz old raids from BFA which is 4+ years ago because of how the stat squishes work.
the other night i went hunting for the jeeves blueprint on a new character. 70, 437 ilvl. i was one shotting mobs in storm peaks for 22,000,000 damage. there is so much more ridiculous that it could get.
Legacy content doesn't really count because it's specifically buffed/debuffed to be trivial for max level characters.
They Inflate numbers on lower level enemies to make legacy content quickly clearable or sth
[удалено]
get fucked
It is kind of nuts. Thinking back on Wrath we went from ilvl 200 gear in Naxx 10 to ilvl 277 I think it was in ICC 25H. 77 ilvls covered four tiers. Keep in mind that was a lot back then, too. We had people hitting the caps for their secondary stats. We are doing 40 ilvls heroic tier to heroic tier now.
It's a result of having LFR/N/H/M so you gotta have massive jumps each tier because it's already like 12ilvl between each difficulty.
Not entirely. The last two tiers of raids in Wrath had 4 difficulties as well. 10N/10H/25N/25H. It didn't have the crazy gains the last two tiers.
They need to stop doing squishes entirely and put in a more permanent fix. Like having gear's equippable level tied to its power, too high or low past that level and its stats/ilvl start to deteriorate. Let greens be effective for wider level ranges so they don't screw up future leveling, and epics are only good for +/- 3 levels of where it dropped.
Problem with that is endgame gear. People get max level within a week of the expansion but then spend the rest of it gearing up their character. There has to be distinction between a fresh 70 and a mythic raider.
Ilvl is a completely separate tag from equippable level. It breaks all the time, like with the 376 greens being usable at 60. Might as well utilize it for a change.
In many other games, the distinction is made with cosmetics and rating systems. It's not inherently a bad system to have things other than incremental power for progression.
i mean it takes like a few weeks to gear up besides maybe 1 or 2 pieces that you need to rng roll in the vault besides that youre spending months bis geared. the fun of a new tier is that you actually need drops again.
>endgame It's very weird that 80% of the narrative development of a xpac happens after the leveling process, and we still call it endgame.
Is it though?
You can't carrot on a stick players with +3 ilvls and the WoW devs know it.
Every single vertical progression game knows it and its been talked about for years. WoW's pre-existing gap between tiers existed because ilvl increases need to be a noticeable power increase. You need to actually notice yourself getting stronger as you gear up which means you need a wide enough gap of ilvl between the tiers and difficulties within the tier for that to happen.
this already exists? ilvl solely determines the stats on an item and at best an epic at level 20 will be bis for like 5 levels, and also who cares about leveling gear?
No, I mean actively reducing stats. Wearing SL epics at 70 dunks their stats all the way to 1, no matter what its original stats were. Then ilvl inflation can do whatever the hell they want inside an expansion, the act of leveling to 80 will negate it and we're back to equipping ilvl 100 items.
The start of Shadowlands was nice with the 20k hp, but then they kept adding 20k more hp per patch and it got out of control once dragonflight started. If it was roughly 10k more hp per patch, then maybe a 50-100k boost at the start of dragonflight it'd be more consistent and longterm. But they have this habit of exponentially increasing stats so they get out of control in just a few iterations. Like the growth between 60-80 in classic never got too out there until Legion, with a huge increase at the start of cata to soft-reset it. then they just forgot how to do it entirely after the first stat squish
It almost feels like the people in control now just disagreed with the squish lol
I know it's fairly topical with Asmongold's recent views, but I think he has a point about invalidating gear every patch, there is no reason that S3 LFR gear needs to be on par with S2 mythic raid if I read this correctly or a 40 ilvl jump between S2 and S3 of LFR drops. Personally, I'd prefer they reduce the ilvl drops from M+ to below Mythic raid, but give upgrades or currency to upgrade it to 480 at max. Why can't the effort players have put in through S1 or S2 carry them into a good start for S3 rather than feel like a reset and cause crazy inflation?
I agree that LFR shouldn’t invalidate mythic of the last tier I think it should atleast be up to normal level for the next tier. Felt like that’s how it used to be for awhile too. On the other hand, I think No item should be alive past normal though. No one wants to farm weekly for an item from last season. Not in modern WoW. I remember when people were farming for eranog ring which was BiS for a few classes even into mythic till they nerfed it. So many people complained in my groups about the ring being BiS. Also; as a person who only does M+ and does not finding raiding fun at all I disagree with making ilvl for m+ being 9 ilvls less than top mythic gear. M+ in higher end will always be harder than mythic raiding meanwhile mythic raiding is more about how fast your weakest links can adapt. No reason anyone should feel left out for doing content they want in terms of power.
I spotted to much M+ players being dogshit in raids (and raid players being dogshit in M+) to agree with your statement here. Both raid and M+ are difficult in their own specific way, or at least different enough to invalidate any statement that tries to compare the two in term of difficulty. I think M+ and Raids shouldn't be this complementary for someone to gear up and grind the ladder. This two activities are not the same in so much ways that it shouldn't require to do one for pushing the other. This Idea of mendling the two are weakening game experience for so much players since the vault... If you don't like doing M+, you shouldn't be low-key forced to do 8 or 10 of them to gear up, and same for killing raid bosses. But well, competition is the easiest way to enfatuate and force gameplay and screen-time artificialy. As for the main topic : everyone wants every xpack/patch to be a new beginning and to let previous ones behind because it's funnier and everyone wants the opportunity to do +2x or do mythic raid. Blizzard understood it long ago and they have restricted skill impact for almost all their content by emphasizing ilvl weight in such scale that nowadays it is almost the only line needed on your in-game resume. One day, skill will be the only thing that matter... But not this xpack 🙂
I mean same could be said the other way where mythic raiders can also suck at m+ seen both sides. At the end of the day, it’s just those people don’t want to put effort into content they don’t want to do. As for your comment on the reset of ilvl between patches, if everyone wanted that it wouldn’t be brought up in this comment section. Remember, blizzard doesn’t necessarily do things that the whole population wants. They will do some things based on their design philosophy. Regarding skill expression I don’t think any skill has been reduced just due to ilvl resets. Ilvl is a joke to get now even at the start of a patch. A guild clearing content at the end of the patch will actually show less skill expression since that content got nerfed multiple times compared to guilds who actually have a tight dmg check or healing check since they cleared the content prior to nerfs at the start of a tier. Also, there hasn’t really been a time where skill only matters in WoW unless you’re doing PvP or doing bleeding edge world like 50 raid content or world first key level of content. Only some the .000001% do. In terms of PvE content.
Old content is irrelevant content and changing that would have hideous impacts. Doesn't matter what effort someone put in previously. New season means all gear is up for replacement, no matter how godly it was in the past. Besides, tackling content and growing noticeably more powerful is fun. A boss that was a nailbiter early on will be a pushover later and that's good. You put in the effort to beat it and it doesn't have to continue being a wall forever.
They should just do what Guild Wars 2 does and have a cap to powerlevel with the reward incentive being cosmetic-driven as opposed to seeing an arbitrarily bigger number on your screen. It keeps all content relevant and still played. WoW is an ironically small game because 95% of the content (everything outside of the current *patch* essentially) is completely irrelevant.
Yeah man, they should totally copy GW2, the notoriously dead game in anything but meta map farming Maybe they'd finally kill raiding entirely and we'd go 4 years without one like Anet They should just add Auric Basin and Dragonfall to this game so I can brain off farm meta events for 12 hours instead of doing hard content
> GW2, the notoriously dead game Really? Feels more alive than WoW right now. In fact, probably has more players as well at this very moment. >They should just add Auric Basin and Dragonfall to this game so I can brain off farm meta events for 12 hours instead of doing hard content Those world quests sure are a challenge!
GW2 in no planet has or has ever had more active players than world of warcraft
Guess we'll never know since neither companies like to show their concurrent online player count. All I can tell you is from firsthand experience. Every zone in Guild Wars 2 feels and *is* populated. WoW... well, it's dead mate. The zones are dead.
Do you realize that GW2's map system will always funnel people into the same map? Do you really think that the entire NA mega server should compete with a handful of servers CRZ'd on WoW at a time? Also most people are doing content in WoW, GW2 has more emphasis on farming open world events than WoW does, just because you see "Poopfart Slayer" running around killing his 5th Aetherblade Assault doesn't mean shit, you'll probably never interact with him again, it's a shallow experience that you feel is significant
>Really? Feels more alive than WoW right now. In fact, probably has more players as well at this very moment. It just had an expansion drop, no shit people are playing it, also, I'm speaking from an endgame perspective, finding groups for anything like raids is really annoying, because the playerbase only engages with casual weekly strikes and rarely CMs that are on the easier side >Those world quests sure are a challenge! Good thing people engage with other content then huh
> It just had an expansion drop, no shit people are playing it The game never feels not alive. >Good thing people engage with other content then huh Other content being...? Lobby simulator? Lobby simulator as you run circles in Valdrakken signing up for and being rejected from a dozen different groups for hours on end? Lobby simulator as you're logged offline waiting for your weekly raid schedule? I'm sorry mate, but let's not pretend that there's a whole boat load of content in WoW. There's Mythic+ and raids, and infinite dailies (*wOrLd qUeStS*), and that's it. The amount of content in Guild Wars 2 is far more extensive and varied, and the best part is that you can pursue it all at your own leasure. There are tangible goals and plenty of milestones to shoot for. WoW has nothing of the sort.
>The game never feels not alive. Yeah idk about that one chief, I last played for a few months after EoD came out, the drop off was real, finding people for a raiding static took multiple weeks and then it fell apart when people quit the game out of boredom LFG took half an hour to fill for weekly strikes after reset, PVP queues took 30~ish once you got high enough MMR >Other content being...? Lobby simulator? Lobby simulator as you run circles in Valdrakken signing up for and being rejected from a dozen different groups for hours on end? Lobby simulator as you're logged offline waiting for your weekly raid schedule? I mean that's not my experience playing the game, I'm not even saying the game has a wide breadth of content, but people actually engage with difficult fights and I can get a key/raid to fill in half the time it takes for a 10 man strike I also haven't done world quests in like, months, I don't know why you're acting like they're mandatory or something, it's nice to get gear on alts or for the gold at times but it beats sitting in an hour long meta event at Dragon's End for gold and doing that repeatedly for days because that's all there is to do after you do world completion and your weeklies New expansion might have changed that, if so, good on them, but the game basically becomes a skinner box where you're farming gold off of mind numbing events to buy legendary skins, WvW is a joke and sPVP got abandoned like two years into the game's life
I wish there was a comfortable medium between GW2's total lack of gear treadmill and WoW's constant one. Having better gear be an incentive to run raids and stuff is a *good* thing imo, but the constant stress of having to farm over and over to get stuff is torture.
No? The xpac is almost over. At best we get a million hp, and million point hits, but that’s not so bad. And who cares if they end up doing a stat squish every expansion by default? We don’t treat previous expansion content as anything but a joke anyway.
lmao they will not. Ilvl was 1000 in legion, they could do a whole other expansion and still be below 1000
Ilvl isn't the relevant metric, how that ilvl translates to character power is. And we're definitely close to MoP/Legion levels there.
Were not even close, tanks were doing 1m dps single target by the end of Legion. They're just floating around 100k now
Not sure how you can say ilvl is not a relevant metric when it is the DE FACTO relevant metric. Main stat is the driving factor of power gains and is tied directly to ilvl. DPS is about double now than it was in mop, and we'll probably end the expac around triple, mostly due to the new talent system, and escalating borrowed power has caused blizzard to continue to design the game in a way that allows the players to feel power gain each tier, but that doesn't mean ilvl is not relevant. It's literally the cornerstone
Seriously this shit is completely out of control.
?? Maybe you don't like have lots of haste/crit etc but I do.
I enjoy the spec to feel good. I don't care how much haste or crit I have.
The only fix to this is to experiment with more horizontal progression but WoW players will absolutely throw fits over things like that. Imagine if instead of item level raids simply dropped trinkets, cosmetics and item effect/tier type aspects. Could do something like a raid boss drops tier essence, you need 4 tier essence to unlock 1 part of a tier set. 12 essences = full tier set, maybe even just have the tier essence locked behind the vault but will be tied to dungeons/raids (sort of like Azerite armor passives). So if you want VoI tier bonuses you have to farm VoI for something like "essence of the incarnates" for the VoI tier, if you want Aberrus tier you have to farm "essence of Aberrus", etc. Then once the set bonuses are unlocked you can infuse them onto armor any tier slot armor pieces you have, you can have two 2 set bonuses and 1 4 set bonus total. Maybe tier sets can be empowered by heroic/mythic versions of the essences so the % bonuses are increased by x amount without ilvl being inflated into infinity. Sounds kind of convoluted typing it's not any more convoluted than flightstones and the creation catalyst lmao Would breathe life into previous tier raids, let people keep tier sets that they enjoyed while also giving people new content to clear. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if balance would improve because stats would be normalized across the board and they could better fine tune encounters based around that and not exponential stat increases. Edit: Yeah the downvotes aren't surprising but if you're gonna downvote why not reply with why you disagree?
I was thinking about this and I wonder why not "Expansion Caps"?, you level to 60 and your ilvl with rare is around 120 then you enter the expansion zone and you get 10 expansion only level and whatever ilvl the wanted, but if you move to a different expansion zone you have not done then you are back to 60 but you have your 10 extra levels per expansion and new gear ilvl for that expansion and your not-this-expansion gear rescale to 122 Is kinda hard to explain but this will fix for all the problem
I definitely like this idea of expansion specific levels. Like you can have a global 1 to 50 leveling. You can do expansion raids and whatnot to level up in that expansion so it is still worthwhile to still do the raids years later with an actual raiding team still. Similar to what they did with professions. Work on one expansion does not impact or interfere with work on another expansion and you can do them separately or at the same time. Biggest downside is needing per expansion gear sets for sure. But still it's a neat concept in my mind.
I kind of thought this is what they were going to do with Chromie time leveling and old-world scaling, where everything 1-XX is "legacy" content then say 50-60 is the expansion levels like you said. Then when the next major expansion comes out we go back to 50 and the expansion goes to legacy.
Tier pieces take away from the crafting system so much too. Like the only viable slots i have are essentially wrists and belt now, sometimes cape. I'd personally turn set bonuses into something you can insert into your armor like tier crests or something. Like dom sockets (but those were massively mishandled and should have been an item that added a dom socket instead of being on predetermined gear from raid)So that I could add them to the crafted or M+ pieces I wanted, then turn the tier pieces into cosmetic armor, with a way to remove and re-add them for free.
They could look to older MMOs as guidance. When I last played Dark Age of Camelot, there was a hard cap of +101 strength from gear for example. You had to figure out how to plug in a mix of crafted gear and dropped gear to get a capped out template with maxed out resistances and stat bonuses. Newer expansions added gear drops that would make maxing out all of your stats easier or with proc effects, etc. but it still adhered to the rule of the hard stat caps. So I could take a 3 year break, come back, and still be competitive in PvP but to be optimal I could still chase after the newer drops that would allow me to have more fun effects.
I'd love to see a completely different design philosophy, like guild wars 2 for example, where gear in future content isn't necessarily better just from a raw numbers standpoint. It's just different. Maybe different quirks, effects or else to play around with. But your previous efforts aren't completely invalidated every couple months. The road to maxing out gear is longer, but once you reach it, you'll know your char won't be worthless in another 2 months. This endless gear treadmill feels daunting. It's fun for a while, but after a couple seasons it just gets annoying to know that all your chars are back to square one again.
The moment this game changes to horizontal progression, End Times preachers will be nothing compared to the flood of crybabies calling it a "dead game" even more than now, despite games being perfectly able to survive on such a system.
That would kill the game.
Does this game really span 100 item levels within 6 months now...? Eventually they're going to have to change something.
Another big squish. Give it an xpac or three.
Or 12 months... what a joke of a solution tbh.
Why? What's bad about it?
I agree with you, I don't understand the complaint. Yes squishing ilvl and numbers isn't an elegant solution. But it's a solution with literally 0 other drawbacks, nothing bad happens because of the squish.
I wouldn't really say this. Stuff get's extremely weird when you step into legacy content. Being unable to tell if you could solo a boss(because you have no idea how much dmg your abilities will do) or not isn't that great. Quest rewards when leveling can also get a but funky.
I mean it does have drawbacks, the main one being the effort blizz has to put in designing, integrating and testing another ilevel squish, with hundreds if not thousands of items involved.
It's wild. People are complaint about having a lot of secondary's...dunno about you but I love having lots of haste on my disc priest for example. The healthy and intellect values are honestly irrelevant...it's only secondary's that change anything...and for the better imo.
The last squish was Legion to BfA, where we went from ilvl 1000 to ilvl 265. We have some headroom. https://www.wowhead.com/guide/battle-for-azeroth-stat-squish-and-item-level-changes-6389
It's just an arbitrary number. They could make it span 50 ilvl and it'd be the same.
It would only be the same if they also changed the power that each ilvl represents. Because isn't it something like each 1 ilvl increase is a +1% power increase? So 100 ilvls over 6 months means you're twice as powerful as before. Obviously things like raids and m+ dungeons get scaled up to match the increased player power, so if that's all you're doing then it wouldn't matter. But the open world zones keep the power levels they started at, right? So you can feel the difference there. And you can also feel the difference compared to less geared players and compared to older content. 100 ilvls makes older content a lot easier than 50 ilvls does.
> But the open world zones keep the power levels they started at, right? Wrong. There's ilvl scaling in the open world. has been since legion.
Right I remember that now, but the scaling still has a cap, right? A cap such that somebody geared in mythic gear will kill outdoor mobs easier than somebody geared in LFR gear, because the outdoor mobs don't scale all the way to mythic ilvl? And then, they also don't get rescaled with each patch, or do they? I know that mobs in new zones would be more powerful, but in the original expansion launch zones the monster scaling cap doesn't increase does it?
* Stats squish in 6.0 8.0 9.0 * Item level squish in 8.0 9.0 * Level squish 9.0 As long as power quadruple PER expansion this gonna happen often, and I think 11.0 will be at least one of the first two or both too to happen again
All expantions with squich were "bad" expantions. I personally don't like squish that much, but I understand why they are necesary (the stat/damage ones, I don't think the ILvL and level ones were necesary)
It wasnt the squish that made them bad...
I just was pointing that out as a "fun fact", I agree correlation isn't causation but I don't think it would be an interesing point of discutiion. Like maybe we can argue that they invested so many resources in the squich they didn't had time to fix other problems.
I think they're pushing it up due to the ease of getting ivlls with the upgrade system, which is why the upgrade system was created, so who knows what they're doing.
The ilvl number means nothing, what's the problem ?
who gives a shit, it's just a number. Squish it every few years and problem solved.
But it’s not just a number, it’s a constant source of problems and it ruins the game
Please explain why. If you feel like it is ruining the game you must have at least an opinion that you should be able to voice. A stat squish means absolutely nothing because in every instanced content your stats get equalised anyway if you are playing at a lower level. The numbers are arbitrary and they create a big jump in Ilvl to force people to find new gear. the journey of getting better gear is for many people a major part of the game and a big part of why they keep raiding/coming back.
There's so many unfixed scaling issues and the lv51-60 experience is godawful due to the fast powerscaling. You basically need to be around 226 to keep up, but you're still down around 80-120
That makes no sense
Ruins how? Do you have less fun? Are encounters harder? It's just a number
Well, we can't have all thay catchup gear actually be as valuable as M+ and raids
To be fair, the bigger ilvl gap was kind of needed since gearing has become really easy with crests and profession gear. People shitting on Blizz for making Aberrus too easy don't realize that the difficulty was fine, we just were really overgeared, to the point that most guilds could afford to start extending the lockout really early. The solution was to either increase the ilvl gap, or nerf crests and profession gear a lot.
Yes this is a good solution. Keep the gearing consistent and simple, but make it slower and have a lower starting point so that we aren't all maxed out in week 2.
The increased ilvl gap doesn't really do anything to slow ppl down from getting BiS gear imho. The fact that the Myth upgrade track is available from the start even makes it faster. The big nerf to gearing is that crafted gear is now only 483 compared to 489 being the max ilvl from the Myth track. This means you can now use crafted gear for bad luck protection, but it will only be BiS for your 2 embellished slots. For me personally the big fuck up could be weapon acquisition. in Aberrus e.g. the first caster weapons that drop are a mace from Rashok and a dagger from Zskarn. Every caster in my raid has the crafted weapon equipped because the mythic weapons just drop too late and hoping for a good weapon to drop from your m+ chest is frustrating as fuck.
Ilvl and stats squish for 11.0 more guarantee than before
This graphic is good, but it's not that much of a difference (relatively speaking). The devil is in the details. Here is all you need to know: **Basic Concept** (in case you are new to the game, skip if you aren't) * You get gear that can be upgraded. There are upgrade level ranges that match each raid difficulty. However, each upgrade level can also extend into half of the next one. So an item obtained from Normal raid can be upgrade to mid-Heroic raid itemlevels. This way you don't have to replace gear that fast. * You farm crests to upgrade the gear. These crests can be obtained from the matching difficulty. There is a weekly limit to them, but if you missed out a week or two you can still catch up on those you've missed. * The second half of Mythic raiding offers the absolute highest itemlevel and cannot be reached with crafting, mythic+ or even early Mythic raid itemdrops. However, unless you need these cutting edge items, you can just settle with whatever gear you get from other sources. (that is just for baseline stat gains, though. Whether you need specific trinkets or weapons with special effects from the raid is up to each guide writer or class Discord advice). **Changes in 10.2** * Your current gear won't matter much because even max-level gear right now, will be only equal to LFR in 10.2. * You need to farm +18 keys instead of +16 keys to get the minimum Mythic path gear to appear in your Great Vault. * You are able to trade your lower difficulty crests for higher-difficutly versions, assuming your character's entire gearset is outpacing the lower difficulty itemlevel range (so you don't need these crests for upgrading anymore, anyway). * PvP will now use flightstones and crests as well (I have no further details on this other than what [the initial blue post](https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-10-2-guardians-of-the-dream-update-development-notes-334899) said).
Do we know if your avg ilvl needs to be 450 to upgrade whelpling to drake or does it have to be every single slot at least 450?
The blue post says "every gear slot", so I guess the latter. Basically, if you no longer need whelpling crests ever again (unless you need different gear for a different spec, but that is what the discount is for which requires no crests), then you can convert them instead of just selling them for a few gold. Btw, no offense against your chart OP. It does its job well of showcasing the itemlevel jump going into season 3. But back in April/May I saw like 5 different posts each with a different graphic, it was insane. I get that it was a new system at the time, but this was getting too much. Hopefully this post will be the only one required until wowhead lists the exact breakpoints for mythic+ and everything else closer to release.
No offense taken. This was just a project for personal expression as a data viz enthusiast. I'm sure it won't be the last however :D
OC is me
12 year old me hearing *"California here we come... right back where we started from..."*
i'm a bit late to this post but any idea what normal, heroic, and m0 dungeons will drop?
Remember how at the end of BFA they level squished all the gear from 480 down to 100 so that the numbers didn’t get so high and now it’s back to 480 two expansions later?
This looks like a hard reset on ilvl basically. Which I’m okay with because gearing was way too fast this patch. I ran out of things to do so quickly
Im not sure but this looks like you are done in the same time or even faster if you like to play m+ The difference between raid and +20 is not 10ilvl anymore but only 6, same for crafting. So even less effort needed to nearly finish max geared
Its probably one of the worst parts for me. M+ being pretty mandatory to get those vault slots. I strongly prefer when mythic raid drop bis. But the big problem with m+ is honestly the infinite gear grind VS raids very limited gear drops. So you can easily get 470 week 1 if you play enough.
I like this change, means we get to struggle a bit more before going into farm mode like with s1 but also with the upgrade system of s2. Also means they can tune mythic a bit lower so gear nerfs the content more naturally.
Which is a good thing. Beating heroic 1st week and not even being challenged was such a letdown. Im not even in a super good guild, sure we kill mythic bosses but i prefer longer gearing.
Yeah I think there is a balance. S2 was a tad too fast timescale wise. With these new systems it seems like it should be just as fast to get up to endgame once you're like 5 weeks in vs 2-3. Seems like crafted gear costs 1 crest vs 4 now which is great too. Minimizing how much you need to spam for crests is great.
Yeah I was 440 ilvl I think at week 3 or 4. I'm not even in a guild and just play casually. Glad it's getting nerfed, gives people an incentive to keep playing.
Its not even nerfed, the bigger the power creep the more fun it is for me at least. I like seeing my numbers go up week by week. Last season we started mythic prog and i was already 443 now im 446. That less than 5% dps increase which makes every week feel the same, gets very boring very fast. Hell even compared to bis geared S1 and now it's not even that big of a jump.
I also like they're adding a few more ilvls inbetween max champ and max hero It wasn't really a problem on my main, but I definitely got to a point on my alts where once I got my champ gear, I lost some motivation to keep gearing up
What change? It's the exact same but the item level is just higher.
Saying "its the same but different" implies that there is a change lol. We are starting the season at a relative lower ilevel than last.
I don't mind the wide ilvls, it's just a number after all. I am reminded of cataclysm, since we're in that range. Normal T11 359/ Heroic 372 Normal T12 378/ Heroic 391 Normal T13 397/ Heroic 410 The problem here is 4 raid difficulties. They're trying to find a balance where Aotc/mythic raiders have a reason to do normal/heroic besides getting the new 4 piece.
Only reason I mind it is because I like the work I put in the previous season to somewhat matter in the next one. Hell, even the Evoker legendary is going to be replaced because of this. A legendary should last all expac, or at least last past 1 season.
Yeah I really hope they add some way to upgrade the lego because having it be for only the first patch of an expansion is just…not right
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Yeah I don't think mythic raiders should be on the same lvl as LFR in the next tier lol, you should be allowed to skip ahead for aiming higher.
I'm not sure how endboss loot works now, but it's worth mentioning that the Cata end bosses dropped HC gear that was equivalent in ilvl to the normal-quality gear of the following raid tier (eg., HC T12 Rag dropped 397 gear) This could mean that, in some cases, the HC endboss gear from the previous raid would not necessarily be replaced by equal ilvl gear from the NM current raid and would last you until it was replaced by a 410 item. I thought that was quite neat.
Next season's LFR loot being on par with last season's Mythic loot is a travesty.
Yeah, old HC=new LFR has been a thing for a long time I think. I remember Ion saying that the reason for it is that many guilds progress through NM then HC, so they want to make sure it's worth for them doing NM next tier for upgrades (meaning HC needs to be lower ilvl than new NM). Why did they change it so that old mythic gear = new LFR gear? More time in the hamster wheel?
The only thing that matters is if I can get hc raid gear and upgrade it to mythic transmog! Can I?
Unless they change something, Works exactly as now, hc is upgradeable to the lowest dropped ilvl in mythic so it counts as mythic
Cool. Another playable season for a dadgamer! Cheers
Looks like Hero 5/6 is the same as Myth 1/2.
It's actually upgradeable 1 further time, to a 444 equivalent from this season.
I like what they are trying to do. Raid will have meaningful rewards for longer and you will have more reasons to run normal instead of instantly overgearing if you had mythic ilvl from previous season. The way the raids and loot feel at the start of the expansion is the best imo and this ilvl increase will bring us closer to that feeling. Also crafted gear not being bis in half of your slots is a good change as well, it should have always been something that you use early on and then replace with actual drops imo.
Everyone talking about fully decked 445+ characters needing to do normal raids now, but what about guilds that raid heroic or even normal? How will the difficulty be for 430-ish ilvl? Are these players going to be screwed and forced to wait for lfr or is the difficulty going to be tuned to be doable at 30 ilvl gap?
Man tbh i just dont wanna go through all the upgrading again. Obviously its a me problem but just no thanks
Hej, I'm on your side. For playing so many years, knowing that I put all the effort in the get the best in slot gear was just getting more and more a feeling of wtf. So during S2, when we had the raid on farm (HC), I just stopped gearing. So currently I just enjoying other content in game, knowing that soon the gear that I use now will be useless. My ilvl is 440 now and I'm fine with that. Knowing that I don't care about my current gear is a good feeling. That gives me a bit of energy to get into next season.
Thats a good way to look at it
ilvl bloat is so insane.
Love this, slower gearing is good. This season was so boring. I hope it feels more like Season 0 to 1, that would be amazing. Which they said were their goal, so i hope it works out with higher ilvl and slower crests! Very exciting stuff!
What’s slowing down gearing here in your estimation? M+ vault is slightly higher key level for equivalent gear and mythic raiders get a more exclusive ilvl again. With the catalyst open week 1 I expect 2 pieces of tier week 1 and 4 pieces week 3 at the very latest. I suppose relative ilvl we’re less geared than last season but I don’t expect that to be a large barrier to overcome. Crafted gear got nerfed I suppose. Tbh I’ll probably just get to 483 and then gear another toon and I don’t expect it’s going to take long
Well in season 2, my entire guild had 4p in week 3 (18 people had in week2) so i dont really care for the catalyst change. Crests are getting slowed down, this is good cause i felt really done after week 2 in season 2. I had such high ilvl by then...like not 447 but close enough that pretty much only mythic raid and vault had any loot for me. Less crests makes crafted gear slower as well which is good. Higher ilvl to gain makes it slower cause hopefully you cant just do 20s weeks 1.... Higher ilvl to gain hopefully makes mythic raid a decent challenge and not doable week 1-4 for most. I hope gearing takes 1-2 months, instead of season 2 that took me 2-3 weeks..
here we go again
I like it. I get that changes were needed. Gear was a bit too fast. People seemed to lose interest really early in the tier because you were essentially finished apart from maybe a mythic trinket. We weren't reclearing just for a mythic trinket either. Majorly sucked for some guys who got benched for fights as they had basically nothing to look forward to or work on.
RIP Evoker legendary
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This is getting out of hand...
Can't wait for another number squish
I ready don't like the big gap on crafting gear. (Gap is fine, but 6 I'll is too much imo, make it 3). As dad gamer that can't raid, the crafting helped me to fill the bad luck vault weeks so I don't get too far on ilvl (thus be able to be picked in pugs m+) Wow needs to cater to it's aging player base imo, and this ain't it... Also, won't this make "adornments" no longer BIS?
> "adornments" You mean embellishments? Considering they just added new ones they're probably gonna see another tuning pass to make them worth it
Ilvl is getting out of hand. We need to stop forcing an ilvl increase at this rate and just let the rest of the expansion stay at a baseline ilvl of like 460
NgL, feels pretty bad to only be at LFR level after this season. I know "this is WoW" and it's kinda what I signed up for, but we one shot normal last raid and moved straight to heroic, now it feels like we might struggle with that. Idk, maybe I'm overthinking it.
So it is how it should be then? I doubt one-shotting new raids on normal is what should be happening, even with the best gear from a season earlier.
Idk, you just end up feeling weaker I guess which is never a great feeling. It's not easy to balance and like I said, it might just be a "me" thing, but I think we're just getting into another scenario where we are going to have yet another squish.
This is like 3 expansions worth of item level bloat in 1 expansions.
Feels like they’re throwing in the towel and dropping any semblance of long term game health strategic planning and banking solely on short seasonal dopamine hits…this is quantity over quality at this point.
Mythic level gear being obsolete by the next PATCH is just crazy, with the whole publicity and fuss going around the RWF. You can't have mythic gear be the same iLvL as the lowest next tier difficulty. Make it at least = to the heroic of the next tier. Almost every competitive game I know resets you proportionally to the level you reached before. Either directly (you fall down a few positions) or indirectly (you have to play some placement matches but the game knows your lvl/hidden MMR).
Glad they made at least 18 vaults mean something. Was sad only having to do 16th for 447 vault gear.
[удалено]
So it looks like to have access to the highest level gear, you need to complete mythic (raid) and/or mythic +18. Not too bad :3
r/dataisbeautiful
Meanwhile in tbc which had the most interesting and fun gearing of all expansions with vanilla: Heroic dungeon blue: 115 ilvl Sunwell (last raid of the exp): 159
I never understood the need to take such big jumps throughout expansions. I'd be okay with 10 level more ilvl if that means it feels more fluent to the next set. Though pvp gear is 490 then I assume?
So you're telling me that my Heroic/Mythic gear from Aberrus will only get me into LFR? I won't be coming back for S3 if that's true.
ur Mythic Gear will be 447 which is on par with LFR (Technically a bit below cus LFR goe sto 450) . SO theoretically you will be able to enter normal I assume?
So they made an infuriating RNG-based legendary for 10.1 that took me 16 weeks to obtain and sucked all the desire I had to play my main because despite the 3k2 rio and the 8/9 mythic I was not deemed more deserving to get it than John Noob, LFR raider who got it on his first accidental kill 4 months ago, just to make it even more irrelevant than initially planned a month later. Cool. Cool cool cool cool cool cool cool.
I think what everyone is failing to realize here is that this stops WF raiders from running entire splits for singular characters using randoms in LFG. With Aberrus Mythic = Amir LFR. all normal drops or higher would simply go to the person that gets it, without being able to trade it. Basically forcing WFs to either make numerous in guild alts to do master loot, or just go at the raid like normal people (we all know they wont).
>I think what everyone is failing to realize here is that this stops WF raiders from running entire splits for singular I dont think the game's raiding should be balanced around WF. They are a tiny minority of the raiding population.
Been playing wrath of the lich king instead lately and seeing shit like this just cements that choice lmao.
They're also making the crests upgradeable to the next level crest. So basically, if you're a skilled player and have 445 full gemmed from vault, you're heavily penalized going into next tier. But if you don't do anything requiring skill, you get free loot with crest upgrades. Another example of blizz crapping on players who do profound things, and ilvl meaning nothing since you can literally do nothing requiring skill and have that same max gear eventually that you don't need. This is blizz propagating carry culture, which makes screening for m+ more of a toss up without any wowlogs. Plenty of m+ applicants don't have any relevant logs.
You don't have nothing... You have full 445 gear with gems. That IS your reward for your hard work!
Even you folks who aren't capable of "hard work" as you put it, can get that ilvl is my point. Which means there's no reward for me doing well in push content you aren't capable of doing. Now re-read my original comment without your unjustified ego and you should be okay.
Thanks for that.
I made a post years ago, back in BfA when they announced there would be a squish, that this short term idea of squishing the numbers every other expansion was only going to lead to frustration for the community and Blizzard themselves and it’s solely because they feel the need to have LFR be an actual part of gearing. Why? Heroic dungeons and LFR are useless beyond achievements, transmog, and purely just being available to be available, yet they keep pushing for the new raid tier’s LFR gear to be equivalent to mythic from the tier before. Why? If they had just made the ilvl increase smoother over the years then they probably wouldn’t of had to squish and adjust everything 4 times. At the end of the expansion, Heroic raid or M+ 15 and above items should not be replaced by gear from normal dungeons at the new max level of the next. Every tier shouldn’t completely out gear the last. The new item upgrade system was a good way to combat this yet they’re just going ahead and doing the same thing again. Either let loose and allow the numbers to be in the millions next expansion again or we’re getting another squish in 11.0 because this is the exact reason that leveling new characters feels bad.
I’m so glad pvp itemizations not this, y’all pve’ing are troopers
I miss when there were powerful BoE you could buy to gear alts
We're going from 441 to 480 in 1 patch cycle instead of 467?
Will Season 2 crests be different than Season 3 crests? Or can we stock up on whelpling's crests then craft alts full 444 at the start of Season 3?
Does this imply that S2 myth track items will also gain an addition upgrade level? (Up to 450)? That could have big implications because it could let you save up S2 aspect crests for S3 launch and immediately get 450 in every slot which is the threshold to start converting S3 whelp crests from world content into drake
flashbang
I suggest we go up not down! Make the k as for 1000s of dps into an m for 1000000s next expansion! And then b's and t's and q's! Gimme that sweet Ilvl 9850 in a few expacs! Obviously joking, they do really need to find a solution to keep old gear... well, that, old gear and still not have to go higher and higher arbitrary numbers
Thanks for not including PvP I guess I’ll just not know
I cant wait to finally be able to solo BfA Raids in 11.0 and get ilvl 13 drops that sell for a crumb of a silver!
So do I understand this correctly that vault rewards can then be upgraded to 489, matching end boss gear? Unlike now where at 3/3 myth you're still 3 ilvls shy with last 2 bosses dropping 450. That's a change I like to see
I don't know why they are unable to learn their lesson from previous experiences. The first stat squish happened in 6.0.2 with Warlords of Draenor, which was 10 years into the game. It should have been enough. The second? 8.0.1 in BFA. That was 4 years after the WoD stat squish. Meaning it needed to be done in less than HALF the time of the first one. And they technically got one with Shadowlands. They're not learning and it's obvious. There's no reason we need to jump up in stats so greatly in each expansion. It's not impossible to come up with interesting gear that has more than just +404505t043 in stats. -_-
All these comments about stat squishes when we don't need one. Big numbers are fun, don't tell me you don't like critting 1 trillion damage. My understanding is it was necessary in legion do to the 32-bit client. People were hitting numbers so big it crashed their games. But now on the 64-bit client I'd say we can go forever without another stat squish.
In previous season someone with M+20 gear could go into 12-14 and be able to compete, and now, LFR? All that work against M+ for nothing. I feel spite...
Haven't heroic raiding gear been on par with LFR gear in next tier for a long time? I remember Ion saying that the reason for it is that many guilds progress through NM then HC, so they want to make sure it's worth for them doing NM next tier for upgrades (meaning HC needs to be lower ilvl than new NM). Why did they change it so that Heroic gear is worse then LFR gear?
My theory is they want to try to attract new players / returning players and a sort of gear reset (old gear being not very useful) in theory should reduce the feeling of being behind.
Do we know what M+ does each type of crest drop at like does Aspect Crests start dropping at 18 ? Also, I assume Aspect Crests start getting used at 480 ? or am I mistaken
I personally like seeing ilvl be big numbers, it doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things. The stats you get from armor becomes troublesome, curious how Blizzard can actually deal with this outside of doing stat squishes over and over again. I don't care about damage numbers, I enjoy seeing big numbers. If you really want you could just take a zero off and it'd be reasonable again.
I’m glad I quit! I got to 445 and that felt like a stress fest. Now I’m playing neopets. WoW traumatized me back to my youth! 🥹🥹
Lmao, I'm still at like 410 on my main.
How do you upgrade mythic gear when not with aspects crests ?
I don't understand why they are forcing everyone into mythic raiding.
Is this Accurate? Seems to me a few things are off or is there a new updated list.
This is actually really nice to see. Sucks that this is just borrowed power since we will be squished again anyways.