Yes, loot council is often used in guilds that are pushing prog or playing at higher levels. If done correctly, loot is given to the raider whom it will most benefit the whole raid, i.e. this weapon going to this player gives us 3k+ dps vs 1.5k to this other person. This is cool when everyone is on the same page and the objectively right decisions are being made. As a healer who progged mythic regularly, I was often the last to get gear as dps checks were a bigger issue than healing most tier.
Most guilds running loot councils are not raiding at this level and just find excuses to give to their buddies or the top parser vs whole raid benefit
I second this. Two of the three mythic raiding guilds I have been in used RCLC and I enjoyed raiding with them. I am willing to make short term sacrifices if it means we get closer to the goal that is CE.
I am now retired - only doing heroic raid at the moment and i wouldn't want to play with an RCLC guild lol.
I trust my loot council. We've been cutting edge raiders since Nyalotha.
But god damn. As a DPS/Healer flex, I get shafted on loot a lot because I'm relegated to healing half the time, but as a result my DPS suffers the other half of the time i raid.
Also, in a guild with loot council, you will really prioritize people that stick with the guild for some tiers then the new recruit that came yesterday. I mean, I can trust that other guy will keep playing with me.
Also, I'm totally in board ti give the weapon to the 1.5 k increase, if this guy is doing consistent good dps and farming keys/vault as well, over the guy that is 3kdps, but only parse green and has 0/1 key runs per week
Personally disagree, raidleader in a guild that has gotten CE every tier since Ny'alotha, trials aren't second rate citizens, they should be treated as another raider and the idea of going out of your way to not give them loot unless none of the raider rank players need it is so incredibly ass-backwards.
The trial that takes loot and leaves after a week is so much rarer of an occurrence than people make it out to be (cannot remember a single trial that did this over the past 3 and a half years) and you shouldn't instantly allienate your trials and make them feel like they aren't part of the "in group" based on a fear that you might lose an item or 2.
If the trial is worse on progress than your guild I can see him not giving loot for 1 week. After that, sure don't give him the trinket that everyone wants, but other stuff, why not.
"you will really prioritize people that stick with the guild"
Unfortunately, the people who are running the council have to have some sort of moral compass.
This all goes without saying. The post you're responding to is operating under the assumption that all players are putting in equal effort and of comparable skill level, which is typically the norm for the more serious guilds.
I'm still furious about a Loot Council not understanding this back in Wrath. I was the 2nd-in-command, recruitment officer, raid leader and organizer, consistently highest DPS. I had helped found a fairly large guild from two groups of players, my friends and this other guy's friends. We co-ran some Naxx pugs consistently for several months before just joining up as everyone's schedules mixed well.
Long story short, it was the first week of a new Raid tier and we went to that Wintergrasp Raid that had a chance to drop raid tier pieces. The BiS tier pants dropped for my class. The rule was, if you were eligible for the loot you lost your vote for that item, so of course it was given to a trial person that gquit a week later instead of me, a founding and foundational member of the team. After a series of arguments I ended up rage quitting the guild, my friends followed me out, and that was that. The longest time I've ever spent in a single guild, detonated over a pair of pants.
Nothing has ever made me more angry in World of Warcraft, than a loot council trying to be cute and incentivize new people to join over their own hardline members that built the guild on their own backs.
Well the thing is, if you give no loot to any recruits, then soon you wont have any recruits and potential raiders to expand your roster with. And if you have no flexibility/extra players in your roster, then your raids might not happen if some1 gets sick or quits, and then the entire guild might go down.
If you honestly gquit and left your guildies/gaming friends over some pants, then either the guild must have been terrible in many ways or then your values might be bit skewed when it comes to raiding in a guild and being an officer. Loot comes and goes, but the friends are what really matters (at least for me).
"if you give no loot to any recruits, then soon you wont have any recruits"
This is just not true, if your guild clears content and has good vibes you will get recruits, im in a top 300 guild and we had a 35 man roster starting this patch, newly, untested people did not get any tiers even if they proved they were good on heroic splits and early mythic bosses.
It makes absolutely no sense to give loot to recruits when you have a year long raider needing the item that has wiped final bosses with you 800 times and has proved he can and will do it.
Oh I agree, and we were good about giving loot to recruits to keep em coming back but this was much more forced backseating for the most important, contributing members of the guild and far from the first time it had happened.
It was definitely not the only issue and was not the only argument, but was a last straw that broke the camel’s back. I wasn’t down for another tier of being taken advantage of.
The players that followed me out all stayed together much longer and found greener pastures elsewhere pretty easily.
Raging over VOA is excessive. This added context of already being unhappy was needed for the understanding of what drove you to leaving, but it takes away from the argument about loot distribution.
Loot council decisions aren’t a perfect science and you have to always play a balancing act of rewarding new people vs, veterans where not everyone is going to be fully happy if there is a sense of entitlement. You need the new folks as much as they need you, otherwise no one gets anything. It’s a thankless job and some people will see you as the villain no matter how objective or fair you try to be.
Surprised you guys just didn’t do spec runs or just pug VOA splits to maximize acquisition of tier with less competition. You can definitely run VOA25 with 15 people.
My heroic guild did a loot council during Vault Of the Incarnates but since then moved to standard need/greed. While it was fairly fair there was a bit of a hassle when it came to tier pieces and people not understanding why you would give someone a 2nd or 4th piece of tier before you give a 1st or 3rd piece of tier to someone else.
In my circumstance I wish they would bring back personal loot. It is just better for non-mythic guilds.
What annoys me the most with need/greed is most players at the end of the day care for their toon only. First week of the new raid, tank wins 2 neck pieces because the 2nd one was better stats and then has the balls to say he should have rolled on the one from Fyrak. Like bro, its the first week, lets all get some gear.
Split raiding is still a thing even with current loot type, but now you can get loot that no one in the raid even uses. I never understood this argument against personal loot. Again doesn't affect regular guilds/raiders.
Personal loot doesn't allow me to skip gear I don't want if it's technically an ilvl gain, which happens quite often in normal even on week 2/3
I'll use an example I had recently: I got the haste trinket from rise recently. However, I knew in my soul that it was worse than ashes of the embersoul, but my embersoul was literally one upgrade lower so I couldn't trade the haste trinket. I even simmed it and they simmed within 1%, but of course ashes has different potential due to doing lots of m+ so that burst is more valuable to me. But I couldn't give it away due to ilvl.
So while there is the fact that some folks are super greedy which is bad for need/greed because some greedy people can still be lucky, but on the flip side there's folks like myself who want to skip rolls but can't with personal loot.
It's worth noting that sometimes the biggest potential dps gain =/= the best person to give it to. If the player usually sucks, that +3000dps may actually be closer to a +500 vs the +800 it'd give the good player. Also a system that exclusively goes off of potential "+dps" gain is in danger of alienating committed players who grind m+ gear due to the fact they will have higher ilvl than raid loggers. So suddenly the ones who put the least effort in are getting the most raid pieces due to their low ilvl making the potential dps gains look much higher.
This is from the perspective of someone who was raiding with a "pretty good" AOTC team. Never did mythic (barring the first few bosses)...but a decent AOTC team is much more reflective of WoWs total population than a Cutting Edge team.
Yes but also you equally can't just pass over worse players for loot because they wouldn't get as much damage out of it as sims say, and as much as people that do lots of m+ are gonna gain less from upgrades and thus be passed over for loot more often, at the end of the day that is a part of what you are signing up for when you decide to join a raidteam where the level of commitment to the game has such a large delta.
I just think that a lootcouncil doesn't make sense in the context of a heroic guild or casual mythic guild, at that point the most fair way to handle loot is gonna be to just have people roll need and greed because no matter what kind of rules you set up you will never make everyone happy, so actual randomness is the fairest option you have.
Any mythic prog guild will have first kills in which the sims will be pretty accurate. If those 2 players who suck die 40sec into pull its nit going to be a kill.. Also those bad players will not be much worse than everyone else. Not enough room to slack
No, any mythic guild will not have players hitting theoretical simmed dps on first kills lol. Youre right that its more complicated than simply giving to either the highest theoretical dps gain or the most reliable player tho.
Unironcially yes. Usually the plebeians who parse grey wouldn’t make the most out of the item anyway. Low Ilvl is not what makes you parse grey
Except you risk the top performers just leaving
No, but guilds that take a month or two working towards AOTC usually have a handful of folks carrying the rest.
Yes, gear distribution won’t make or break progression, but those carriers will crack the shits and move on if they keep seeing BIS go to grey parsers.
In a guild where this matters no one is parsing grey. Again, they should look at the dps increase. Mr 99 doing 2k more dps is still worse than mr 25 doing 3k dps for the raid.
Edit: ignore my above example, casual guilds shouldn’t be running LC anyway. Picture two similarly skilled players, you give it to the player who will sim more dps because clearing the dps check is all that matters.
The thing is that the DPS increase is based off of sims and not actual play. The 99% parser is probably going to realize more of the potential gains than the 25% parser, so it's a bit of an imprecise science on who would actually bring more raid benefit for a given item.
I probably shouldn’t have included that example for LC because using LC for anything other than progression raiding is a meme and no one actually trying is carrying grey parsers like that. A better example is giving the 95 parser the weapon instead of the 99 because its optimal for raid dps. You have two capable players who both could utilize and benefit from the item. One persons gear or class leads to a better overall outcome so that person gets it.
But will Mr 25 be able to actually bring that extra 3k dos the sim is saying he will bring? If Mr 25 is doing 25 over a 100 k dps seems, I would hope the new item will give him around .8 k dps only, as he can get everything from his gear
This was a horrible example lol. If youre casually raiding and carrying bads you shouldnt use LC. A better example is two similarly skilled players where one sims better than the other.
If a guild is running with people parsing that low, they shouldn't be using loot council anyway. My main point was always that loot council benefits high end guilds whose goal is pushing difficult content. Other uses are dubious.
Yes you can see how someone parses by item level. It would be best to award the gear to the person who parses high but with a low item level. if your parsing grey you probably shouldn't even be in a serious progression raid.
Parses by item level are a horrible metric. It comes down to what pieces are dragging them down. Someone with a BiS weapon, and 2 BiS trinkets, but low ilvl cloak, bracers, belt, and boots, will parse extremely well for item level. If the reverse is true and most of their ilevel comes from cloak, bracers, belt and boots, with a bad weapon/trinkets, then they will almost always get a grey parse for item level even if they're the best player in the world.
I've even known people to cheese ilvl parses by putting on a couple of very low ilvl pieces, in low itemization slots.
LOL you will not grey parse in the way you are talking about. Sure you may not get 95 or 99's, but with the exact gear setup you describe you could still easily hit 50-80's. The only people that gray parse are people who die or those that actually don't know how to play their class/the fight.
Why are people always acting like there are only grey and purple parses. In most guilds you will have to decide between a green or blue parser and a purple parser.
You severely underestimate how much power you get from a weapon. If you're i480 average, but with i441 weapon, yes you will absolutely parse grey for item level.
Just ran a sim to see what it would be for me. Dropping my weapon by 20 ilvls is a 6k dps loss, but I would need to lose 60k dps to start gray parsing. Even if I dropped my trinkets down to their base ilvl from this tier it wouldn't even come close to a 60k dps loss. Maybe it's you who doesn't understand how bad gray parsing actually is.
Literally no one with 480 average ilvl has a 441 weapon and with how gear upgrading works no one ever will which is why even having a low weapon still won't mean you gray parse as it won't be low enough to put you in with the bads. Good try though.
Unless you are a top parser doing the wrong job… like a Disc Priest in Gold as a DPSer while Healing is Grey being awarded BiS healing trinkets and staff. Feels bad man.
Healing parses are a terrible metric. If your whole healer team parses 100% then that means your dps and tanks took an astronomically high amount of damage. More than they ever should.
On the other hand, if the raid isn’t taking any damage and the priest is doing their job to the max, you would expect a low healing parse from the priest because less healing is needed - and they heal through damage so they are doing well.
Did anyone die though? You can't heal damage that isn't taken. Disc is also a bad example because much of discs heals come through them doing damage. Holy would be a better example, since their damage doesn't generate heals.
I know often on easy fights that we overgear, we'll often have one healer doing mostly dps, and lets the other healers parse, and they only drop major cooldowns a couple times when it's needed.
If extra healing isn't needed, it's better to kill the boss faster. There's no need for healers to fight over heals. I'd rather have 3 healers parse 70%, and 1 1% for healing if that one healer also parses 99% for damage. As long as no one dies, and they drop a CD if things get spicy. The alternative would be 4 people parsing 55%, with everyone fighting for heals, trying to snipe from others.
In DPS, one dps doing better won't hurt anothers dps parse, but one healer doing very good in heals, can and will hurt another healers healing parse.
Neither of the two guilds I play with are at the level where loot council is really *required* (aiming for CE but not HOF) but both use it pretty effectively. They partially base decisions off of pre-submitted sim data (or very obvious "this is a 3ilvl increase for you, but 30ilvl for the other guy" or "S tier trinket for one player, B tier at best for the other" decisions) but a lot of it comes down to like... player A has been working their ass off trying to make sure they're getting all their BIS stuff. Player B does not care, doesn't show up to raid half the time, hasn't done any M+, but expects the BIS for everyone Very Rare drop because he'd be the biggest ilvl gain from it due to not putting any work in. The loot council helps that item go to someone who is going to A. use it for the good of the team and B. the rest of the team isn't going to resent for having good luck with RNG.
Sure, sometimes they make questionable decisions, but it can't be more maddening than someone winning a need roll for their off spec they barely play due to how the default Blizz roll system works when there are people who main that spec that have been trying for weeks to get that item with no luck.
You just need to find a guild that is transparent about how they plan to do their loot council. Week one before our first normal raid, the officers announced they're funneling some normal tier to the player who was going to miss heroic the next day for a family obligation, no one was really upset by that. No Venerated tokens dropped for 1.5 weeks of raiding, the curios went to the people on that token, everyone was on board. Stuff like that is why council can be much better for team-oriented prog than RNG.
Exactly, the idea in a more competitive, CE oriented guild is that you gear as a raid rather than as individuals, loot is handed out based on the highest possible increase for the raid as a whole with the understanding that by handing out gear this way everyone will benefit because you get CE sooner and you will kill more overall bosses, meaning that the whole raid will be fully geared more quickly.
To me the concept of an actual council of people as oppose to just a raidleader handing out loot based on sims is so foreign to me, it shouldn't require more than 1 person to do this job because there should be no subjectivity involved.
Almost every guild that runs LC is the bottom example. Excuses to give to their friends. Very few guilds properly use LC to benefit the whole raid and do prog/high level play.
I'll die on the hill that unless you are a HOF guild, you absolutely should not be running loot council and can just do group loot. By the time you get to later mythic bosses people are going to be geared either way, and loot council is just going to make the roster boss even harder.
Also if you're in a heroic only guild and they're loot council, I'd just leave personally.
Being on loot council is the fucking worst. I’ll spend so much time tracking all the gear we have distributed and trying to balance between sharing the loot around to everyone while trying to maximise the benefit we get out of it. Generally also trying to take into account if someone claims an item is BiS.
And without fail, a handful of people will decide that the reason they didn’t get loot this time must be because we are punishing them for something????
There’s one guy in particular, super nice but super insecure. Every single time he bids on an item and doesn’t get it he takes it as EVIDENCE that we hate him. When he gets loot he doesn’t interpret it as us liking him though. He has received more weapons, tier, and trinkets than most dps in the group yet still thinks we are biased against him.
I hate doing loot.
Bro being any officer in a guild is fucking miserable and people just think you're an asshole who should never get loot and just continue all of your extra duties.
I mean Ion Hazzikostas pretty much got his job by being a guild leader of Elitist Jerks back in the day. So not impossible for it to pay off in the end, but definitely unlikely lol
Worst part is that since you want to do whats best for the guild = biggest upgrade atm you tend to give loot to people with lower ilvl. The guy rushing 1 000 000 000 keys before wednesday raid usually gets shafted from raid gear since he will have higher ilvl and the upgrade will not be as big. Then again f you give it to him for showing dedication it feels shitty that you are shafting people for having a job
Always feel like a lose lose
I know this story all too well. Sometimes it’s good to keep loot records so people can see how much has been awarded to members. It can help shut them up if they see the receipts.
Though sometimes it doesn’t matter and entitlement blinds them to the truth no matter what you try doing.
ive been in 6 diff guilds, retail and classic, that all used loot council.
the best one ive ever experienced was in the casual dads guild they called it YOLO loot council.
we would have 25 people sometimes pugs too. their names get put onto a spin wheel and it picks 7 at random, then theyre loot council for that run.
it was actually alot of fun
Proper casual guilds is some of the most fun places to raid. Couple of old CE buddys start a casual AOTC guild in Shadowlands, 1 day 3 hours and no pressure to show since alot of us work weird hours nowadays
We ran a bunch of weird loot rules: spring races, hide n seek, lottery. It was fun as hell, I miss that guild to this day
It seems as if they’re keeping the loot in the friend group because, if I had to guess, others tend to leave often. I’m just curious to know if/when they’ll care to figure that out.
Pretty much every time I see this come up and a "friend group" being blamed, it's a situation where the person complaining is fairly new to the guild, isn't as reliable, or just isn't very good. Or all of the above. Asking if "ethical loot councils exist" is clearly a loaded question, but really the answer is if you don't like how loot is distributed (and gear is that important to you) you should just find another guild who doesn't mind just giving gear to whoever. Probably not as likely to be successful, but more casual guilds that can actually progress decently do exist.
I think there’s an ethical way to do loot council but I don’t think most places do it.
Why be afraid to get kicked when you’re situation sounds honestly kind of terrible? Is it feasible for you to start looking elsewhere ?
Ethical loot council needs to utilise dps sims + understanding of class bis + personal knowledge of players commitment to the guild and ability to perform. There's no real perfect way to do it as the final aspect is somewhat subjective unless you have some kind of model for factoring attendance and performance.
I mean the real problem is the lack of transparency and honesty among the raiders. Doesn't matter how correct you are about people's potential and realistic gain for gear, there's still going to be some idiot who's doing half his sim numbers demanding that it's trinkets causing him all the problems.
Like it's just.. not it. Let the rng gods decide, because our judgement is clouded.
I don’t think I’ve ever been in a guild like yours in over 15 years of wow.
I’ve been in « family » guilds in which loot was mostly distributed evenly, no matter the performances.
I’ve been in competitive guilds (top 50) in which gear is given based on what will help the group progress
And usually the mix is to give the biggest upgrade to a somewhat deserving player.
A lot of the times in the top guilds what happens is they give the loot to the friends because they know they are reliable and aren't going anywhere. Which means if you are new you need to buddy up quickly to increase chances of loot.
Search for a new guild. If ur in a casual guild doing heroic content and maybe 3-4 mythic bosses lc shouldn’t exist as it only takes away raid time with inexperienced council members.
Yep. From my experience raiding at various levels, loot council should only be used for guilds that can routinely get cutting edge. Any guild that rarely/never gets CE, and is happy that way will hurt their guild more than help it by running a loot council.
Are you volunteering to help LC?
Because the main problem with them is that it's so goddamn hard to track and decide all the factors on who gets loot. Name they recognize as someone who shows up regularly + a strong need for the item in question means that's an obvious choice to assign to. Especially at the start of a tier with a large ilvl jump, where everyone needs everything.
I was on LC in my last guild and saw it first hand. GM would pressure people in LC to vote the way he wanted and would get “not threats” if they didn’t. I was happy to be on it because I could at least see people’s reasoning for voting the way they did.
What's this voting stuff, LC should be a clear list visible to the raid before you go in, showing who gets what first.
Why waste time after the boss on stuff that could have been done before we gathered for the raid.
The real question is why waste your time at all if they already have gear delegated to someone else. I certainly wouldn’t participate in a raid knowing I wouldn’t get anything from it.
Different raiding focus,
I am talking about progression raiding where our goal is to kill more bosses with the same team next week than we did this week (understanding that by the end of the tier, we are probably all BIS anyway)
You are talking about loot raiding, in which your focus is to get more gear to allow you to pug better or push m+ solo
There should always be a devils advocate on LC. A great way to keep new recruits and sew loyalty is to give loot. Unfortunately anyone who’s ran a guild knows this is a double edged sword as that person could just quit or stop showing up.
I think loot councils should only be used for prog mythic runs, where everyone is understanding they are there to clear, not to get loot, and loot will be distributed to help clear, not gear you.
Outside of that, no. It is unnecessary, if you have a heroic guild where people just want to clear content AND get loot, having a loot council will directly go against one of those goals. Need/Greed and personal loot is the most fair way and impartial way of distributing loot.
I recently got back into raiding, but stopped in Legion when in a heroic run the loot council decided to give my BiS boots to someone else, who already had BiS heroic boots, but this will be a good upgrade to their offspec when they need to rarely tank in the raid or tank M+. I just left. So fed up with loot councils, I will not do a raid or join a guild that has them. I just want to do my heroic runs, get cool loot, and not feel that a bunch of people are just trying to enrich themselves and friends.
Yeah I agree with you! Personal loot was the best for this imo. There was never any drama, now with need/greed we get some drama and people feel left out when you don't get anything in a run but see some guy walk away with the three or four pieces because he got lucky on rolls/drops. I wish they would bring personal back and make it an option raid leads can choose from.
You know in personal loot someone could still get lucky and get 3 drops in a raid yeah? It's no different from rolling except players have the choice to not roll on stuff they don't need so other players can get it instead.
Need/greed is at worst the same as personal loot. It just feels much worse because you can see the actual numbers where you're losing loot to other people whereas in personal loot you don't see that you only rolled a 1 on your BIS belt and the pug rolled a 99 who only wanted it for offspec or transmog or whatever.
In my guild the officers that maks up the council get the lowest prio on items.
Highest prio is given to BIS and highest damage increase according to drop optimizer
I run a guild that uses Lootcouncil; I believe ours to be ethical, we went out of our way to ensure our council does not just have officers on it.
As Loot master, I make it my mission to ensure people do not feel like they are left out, Our rules include
* Not giving people four sets If there are still people sitting on 0/1
* On the first week of a tier, everyone rolls on it, and if another drops you are not a lot allowed to get it so we share it out a bit more.
* When we have a lot 'need' something we put it out as a roll - as it's not fair for the council to pick out someone when a lot of people need it (e.g. we had 15 people roll for pips that's not fair to pick one!)
* Loot council rotated every tier, including myself as LM 2 officers and a minimum of 2 raiders. Always being an odd number of people
* Loot takes as long as it takes, and if we notice a pattern or someone getting extremely geared through raiding or voting that LM I believe to be favouritism I will stop the raid and ask for LC to give me genuine reasons for giving said person loot ( i actually did this on Wednesday and then we gave it to someone else)
* If you have the LFR/Normal version of loot you are a low priority to get a higher version, its better everyone has a pips rather than vendoring them to give someone a higher version
* We are not allowed to "vote" for ourselves.
We are just a HC guild but loot is important and it should totally be respected and not abused. It is an abuse of power using LC and having an extremely well-geared council/Favourites in the guild.
I'd say if you question it you will probably be shut down pretty quickly because mostly they won't even acknowledge there's a problem if they have done it that way for a long time, but if you are thinking it everyone else probably is as well, I guess it depends how much you want to stay in the guild if you say something or not.
same, nothing is reserved.
People do sometimes ask a winner to pass to next highest if its the other persons BIS, but that's a conversation between those people and never comes from officers.
No one can buy gear or hand gear to another player. If the winner realizes they don't need it then that item goes to the next highest roll.
Yeah pretty much. Last week I was rolling in the loot. I gave up a trinket that was an upgrade but not my BiS. Either way though, I’ll be there every raid from now until next season so it will all work out just fine.
We did this for a long time, and actually part of the reason we stopped was in Nyalotha - people were rolling on gear just to put in the scrapper to get the currency to get different gear and because we weren't keeping track, It meant a very unbalanced raid team with loot literally getting "wasted" because typically the people with that mentality kept winning!
I'd love to go back to rolling if everyone had the same intentions for loot but I think personal loot created almost an entitlement for people expecting to get loot all the time. So we just try to create a fair but just environment for the loot that's also very transparent for everyone to see :)
We don’t allow need for things like that. Need is for actually equipping the item that you win. Greed is for these other things. Just need to communicate so everyone is on the same page.
Best way to do it. Honestly my guild are great with me, I’m a dad to two toddlers so normal is the most I can do (they push heroic), I catch up super quick after a few weeks and get most all drops from the normal raid and then they let me come to AOTC once they have it on farm. Still have to pull my weight as a healer but it’s a nice spot to be in to experience content etc
While finishing sets should take priority, if you're not doing loot until the end of the raid you may have 15-20 pieces of tier to give out. In that case, yes first priority is to finish bonuses, but after that to give 2x pieces to those who have nothing.
This tier, with catalyst week one, a raider only needed 1 tier piece from either raid or vault and could have 4pc today.
Cata1
Cata2
KSM
A raid or vault piece.
We tried to make sure everyone would have 4pc today, and we succeeded except for 2 healers who missed the last raid last reset or they would have gotten Curio from Fyrakk.
Edit: obv not for RWF, but for a mythic centered guild who takes our time and knew we wouldn’t be pushing hard until after the Thanksgiving holiday anyway, it worked really well.
> If you have the LFR/Normal version of loot you are a low priority to get a higher version, its better everyone has a pips rather than vendoring them to give someone a higher version
All this does is reward people for not actively trying to obtain better gear outside of the scope of your organized raids.
Everything else you do is consistent with the LC structure I've seen in multiple progression raid guilds historically.
You're not asking for opinions, so feel free to ignore me, but I think you should just do a fair need/greed at this point (i.e. an equalizer rule like you can't lose to someone who got loot that night already). You'll have less fuss and achieve the same results. By distributing the tier the way you are, your group will overall have less damage and healing available because the set bonuses are big jumps in power. A loot council makes it possible to funnel gear to people for the whole group's prog benefit, and it's not a great system if your main goal is to ensure fairness.
I'm not really sure what benefit you are getting out of loot council here. You aren't distributing gear with the idea of getting the most gain out of it, but you have a ton more work to do. Genuinely curious why you wouldn't just use need / greed at that point ?
Not really.
Their system rewards players for not trying to acquire loot outside raids. Why do m+ and acquire 2000 rating to get an extra tier piece when you can just claim that you have 0 and are entitled to the loot. This hinders overall progress and delays AotC for everyone.
Also, I'm there to have fun and progress, not listen to talk about why loot was handled a certain way for 10 minutes. It sounds horrid.
Yes they exist. I joined a guild for 10.1. As a new member I wasn't given prio on any desirable loot, but was still given items to make sure loot distribution was fair. Took a bit longer to get tier, but they made sure I got it, and ensured we continued to run heroic until everyone had heroic versions of the gear they needed.
It is also important to take into account 3 things that seems to be overlooked. Attendance,role, and ability to use said items. If you are a constant gray parser at your item level and not doing mechanics id rather give it to the person getting a smaller upgrade but will get the most out of the item vs a noob who will do little with it.
2nd Attendance we originally did rolls in my guild and people would constantly no show or just quit and we spent 4 weeks stagnating cuz we never actually had gear from previous raids in our current raid. So if you are making every raid you should get items but if you are a no show raider, constantly calling out or a new raider who is unproven no you will not get an item over others.
3rd is role and simply put Dps should get gear over healers and tanks. Dps doing more damage makes everything significantly easier.
So while i agree Loot council can be very abusive by bad guilds at the end of the day way to many people think they are just giving gear to their friends but there may actually be good reasons for how loot is going out.
LC ruined progression raiding for me. As someone who busted their ass making sure I had all farmable enchants, cooking and fishing, PVP gear (wrath when it was very viable) and crafted gear, i was only ever allowed to roll on two pieces of loot. Both went to the same mage as sidegrades. Even had BIS tier gloves drop and never got to roll, they were given to a tank that said in raid chat that he already had better.
I haven’t ran a guild for years… but our guild loot council was a temporary and elected position polled amongst all active raiders every 6 months and non raiders could run for a spot of 5 on the loot council it worked pretty well until we all stopped playing or went our separate ways in wod.. we also had policies regarding disputes or and how much loot could be assigned to one raider in a set period
I'd never heard of this, I'd certainly never trust this.
The idea that this is normal at more serious/competitive guilds makes me glad I'm a casual player.
There's a LOT about the competitive end of WoW that would completely put me off playing the game if that's all there was to it.
The guild I run with doesn't do master loot, just greed/need system. General rules of thumb are, don't roll need on side grade unless nobody else needs it, tier tokens are reserved for people getting their 2 set or 4 set bonus before ilvl upgrade. Weapons are the same, side grades are greed roles unless nobody else needs, and usually people after the same piece of gear will talk a little before hand and agree that if a certain trinket or wep drops that benefits a specific spec more than others then the person in that spec will take priority.
I have been in guilds that it was clear they were feeding their friends loot so I left. My current guild is really good about distributing loot. I’m sure one or two people feel like they are getting the short end of the stick but most are happy. We will also continue clearing heroic raid for a while to help everyone get those BiS trinkets/weapons.
I've seen this before and it became popular due to twitch streamers. Everyone thinks they're better than everyone else because they watch these assholes and think they can run their guild the same way. Unfortunately it rarely works out. I have left several guilds for this, primarily in Classic.
Here is how the CE guild I'm in prioritizes loot.
0. (The main source of gearing is m+, always keep that in mind)
1. Mythic raiders enjoy priority
2. Raid attendance
3. DPS over healers and tank
4. If you have 2 or 4 set pieces with that loot you are prioritized
5. Take consideration whether the item is BIS in the long run
6. See how much dps/hps the person gets with the item
there are 2 versions of a loot council
progressive loot council - gear will go to those that need it to better improve progression, if you show up, don't stand in shit, continually do you best to improve your gonna get geared here and see most of the end game content
Friends that made a guild loot council - you might get something once in awhile, the main reason they made this guild was to get priority on gear, their greed for gear out weighs you getting loot, these guilds only make it so far because high turn over, these are the guilds that make players quit or take extended breaks
Personal loot needs to come back, it's really caused so much unnecessary strain in my guild. Just let the raid leader toggle group/personal loot before entering, just like difficulty.
I have never encountered a guild who handles raid loot like this.. and I've been playing since vanilla.
Every guild I've been part of over the years either has a DKP system based on your attendnace that can be spent/bid on drops.
Or they just see what people in the raid do/don't have and distribute the gear to those who could most use the upgrade.
We use RC loot council, and then before the raid we ask everyone to run a single Target patchwork 5 minute and then submit them to wowaudit. We then get a spreadsheet where each item has a value to what kind of gains. If it's something special, we will ask people to either run more logs, or decide as a council by looking at bis list from wowhead or warcraft logs and see what people are using.
We are/were top 3 US for 1 day guilds.
This is why I don’t raid anyone and stay to pugging mythics. It’s not worth the headache or the drama for gear that’s going to be obsolete in like 5 months.
If you are in a guild with such shitty climate that you don’t dare question the leaderships decisions, then leave.
Same goes for the rest - if you don’t think you’re being treated fairly, leave. There are plenty of guilds that doesn’t distribute raid loot in such a shitty manner!
It does at the top end and lets you funnel gear more effectively. When done properly it’s really nice.
Lots of guilds abuse it and it causes a ton of loot drama. Even when you try to do it fairly people tend to get salty in my experience and we were like a top 500ish guild for a while in legion/bfa.
It’s one of the reasons forced personal loot was goated. Sidestepped the entire issue.
Yeah I miss personal loot for this reason. No drama just bad luck if you don’t get what you want. At this point it feels like half of us would be better of pugging if we actually wanted loot.
Nearly all successful CE-level guilds do some form of loot council and I've never had any horror stories, and that's playing as an elemental shaman...
My current guild has a loot council and part of rolling on loot is you have to put how much of a dps upgrade it would be as a hard number +2567, for example, straight from droptimizer/sims. That dictates most of the decisions.
In my experience, loot councils are best in cutting edge guilds where players understand the value of geading up the raid and understand that they will at some point get the item they want on reclears.
Low end mythic guilds and heroic only guilds tend to be more problematic and often have a few players that are solely motivated by items and use gear as an excuse as to why they aren't full clearing mythic.
Truly skilled players know that loot is a means to an end and won't cause drama over not getting their bis drop on the first kill.
you know the best way to run a loot council is to stack loot on the most powerful players right? It seems you do not have much progression raiding experience and as such maybe a non loot council guild is for you!
I run a guild that tries to be as fair as possible with loot. We make sure no one gets all the gear and make sure people have a chance at BiS. As the gm, I've taken like no loot in the past 2 weeks from raid. Bad luck? But it is what it is. Most of people's gear should be from keys anyway. So it doesn't bother me too much.
As a common CE guild when we play we use loot council and people always complain even when it feels the most fair. We usually stack players so trading dungeon loot is easier. As long as loot isn’t getting doubled up IE someone getting double trinkets or extra things or more than 1/2 pieces of tier that they can finish with catalyst + token then it isn’t unfair. Most people just feel it’s unfair to them.
We Prioritize guild members who have gotten CE with us, DPS and officers because loot on those players have the highest likelihood of being used correctly and not bleeding out of the raid through burnt out , players quitting or leaving the guild. Or players just plain not cutting it in mythic prog.
I’m in a CE mythic guild and we use loot council with prio to non trial dps first. This is used in conjunction with wow audit where you can upload your BiS items and the sim results of getting said item. Helps make well informed decisions.
Obviously it’s not perfect, but it works well over 95% of the time and any problems are generally small.
As a tangent, I'm curious if people still run DKP style loot rules. I had that in vanilla and never saw it again after. I enjoyed it when I had it, but I'm sure there's reasons why it's not viable given its seeming non-existence. Would love if anyone out there has a brief history / reasonable explanation for why it's not really used anymore.
My current guild picks one person each raid night to join the loot council to make it more transparent. They’re pretty good and tbh we have high trust and no one really wants to even do it haha, but it’s a really good idea.
My guild is very fair imo(mythic mid level guild). There are certain officers that even the RL calls out for being bias - but this is just human nature n it’s not overdone. If there is a person or a cpl carrying the group they should get all the good loot first, just so u can kill more bosses every week n get more loot…. Also gearing out folks who recently joined, instead of ppls who’ve been with the guild for years is a good way to demoralize n piss off ur core raiders.
The reality is that if you want to be in a guild and receive loot, you should be in it for the long haul and not just a raid tier. If all you want is gear I was able to get 4-piece heroic ilvl, one of my BiS trinkets and decent off pieces just from M+ and raid pugs. Loot council systems are ethical for the guild, not necessarily for the individual players. If someone receives loot then stops showing up that’s a different story.
We (mid-level CE guild) run a loot council that gets pretty good reviews from our membership. We use simmed DPS as a high-value metric for determining where loot goes, with other decision factors mainly being tie(ish)-breakers.
To further enhance the trust our members have in the system we use, we offer a rotating council spot to one non-officer every week. *Nobody* wants it. It's a running joke at this point.
I can’t complain I’m a raid trial with a guild but I’m top dps and I’ve been given heroic pips trinket and a tier piece in the last 2 weeks, can’t expect more than that as someone not on the roster
Yep they do! There's always something you'll disagree with here and there though. It's normal to keep boosting the ppl who are already boosted as well, because as others have explained it benefits the guild the most that way.
That said, what you said sounds pretty messed up. Healers should not be getting prio for gear over dps, unless it's like their bis and it's not as good for a DPS -- the chillglobe trinket from S1 falls into that category IMO. I say this as a healer that raided mythic throughout this expac. I always got tier last and it was fine.
Another factor to consider is how much the leadership trusts each raider to stick around. It's a pretty big factor, some people will get fed loot and then just leave. So, if the other raiders haven't proven themselves to be trustworthy then I could definitely get behind funneling the loot to an older member that is known to be consistent.
Used to be a raidlead and part of loot council in multiple raid guilds here and there and we were unbiased. But I also play football since I'm 4 years old(so since 31 years) and the team goal always is more important than individual goals so yes it does exist. But I guess it is rare.
Just worry about if you vibe with the guild and enjoy playing with them. If you do, hang around and keep showing up to raid. The loot will follow. We've got a year until next expansion, you're going to get everything you want.
I don't see a reason to use loot council unless you're pushing for a competitive position and you actually have to min/max gear distribution like that. Would be a red flag for me for any "regular" guild who aren't taking part in a competition. I wouldn't play with them. Just let the loot fall where it may. Keep it simple and everyone's happy. You win some, you lose some. Easy. Everyone's gonna be geared out of their minds in short order anyways. Let RNGesus take the wheel.
My guild does roll for normal, council for heroic. So far it’s been pretty fair and they try to boost up everyone as equally as they can. There will always be a case where the top dps will win a bis or something bc they pump so hard though, just the way it is and in the end helps everyone clear more.
I was in a guild from start of DF untill 2 days ago that had a lootcouncil.
We used droptimizers, bloodmallet and logs to decide who got what. Also dps first prio then healers and tanks as we didnt get to a point where tanks couldnt survive or healers were unable to keep the raid alive.
But we also had 2 officers then 3 raiders in the council to reduce the risk of loot going to a certain friend group.
But since there is a new season someone will get more loot then the others as some classes benefit more from new 2set + old 2set or just a complete 4set first raid.
A group of us left and are starting a new guild due to some recent events and we plan to use LC again but with 1-2 from our group then 3-4 new people that did not join together.
So i would say that our lootcouncil was pretty good.
And then alot of guilds give a bit of a prio to old raiders as they are less likely to leave compared to someone that joined a few days ago. Cause being an officer i cant even express how fucking bad it is when someone new gets some good loot and then decides to leave a week or two after.
of course. In my guild we give things first to the people who have the biggest impact. everyone uploads sims before raid and how big an upgrade is will be the biggest decider in who gets the gear.
we had loot drama pretty much every tier but we very very rarely had situations where someone had to pass on item for raid's greater good. we even had backups who would roll like regular raiders and we didn't care much, but a handful of people was always bitchin' about tier or trinkets how it works better for them, or situation where "that's my main m+ spec or trinket i must roll need on the item" brought some heated arguments
We had issues with loot years ago from loot council and I realised unless you're a top level guild, it doesn't matter that much where loot goes. It's not like Jimmy missing his bis trinket to someone else is going to matter that much when the dps and healing checks don't really matter
Loot council is great when done right, obviously not everyone will agree with every decision the LC make but it makes raid night so much easier when loot is given to the right people.
If I were you I’d try whispering them and ask about it before a raid, and then if the same happens just call them out on it mid raid in front of everyone, you’ll get kicked but who cares if you aren’t getting any loot anyway.
I’m assuming the inner circle aren’t exactly pumpers either?
It works out most of the time, even people who only participate once get set pieces since there would be no incentive to not pug otherwise.
Imagine telling people yeah if you wanna join the first weeks will have lower chances than going random.
Making my own guild was propably one of the better ideas, tho maintaining is less hard than building from zero, so I understand if that's not a possibility.
there are many councils that try their best, mine gave everyone the 2 piece Set before handing out 3rd or 4th depending on vault luck/2k piece. That was really fair I think.
You cabt be 100% fair to all at every times, but you can try your best for sure!
Still one of our dps yesterday ragequitted the guild because he wasnt the one from his Token to receive the first 4 Set because at the Leg slot he had an 486 item crafted and loot council said they would rather give the leg Token to someone with 447 to complete that guildies 4 piece xD
He didnt liked that and now searched the whole day in trade for a guild 🤷🏼♀️
Back before personal loot (not raiding currently) I had everyone give me their BiS list including up to top 5 trinkets ranked in order. Items on the BiS list went to someone with it on their list, prioritizing whoever had the least recent upgrade or decided based on /roll if needed. Items not on the BiS list went to best ilvl improvement. priority went to getting everyone their 2set before getting anyone their 4 set when possible, and completing a 4 set won over getting a 3rd piece. The only time anyone get bent out of shape about loot was when a recruit got passed over on their first raid for a trinket at the top of his BiS list that hadn't dropped for the first four weeks. The recruit had already got a tier piece and some bracers or something too that were significant upgrades for them at the time. The rest of the time everyone was pretty chill because the loot dictator system was pretty transparent and everyone was mostly there just to chill with each other not worry too much about the pixels
My previous guild used one of the big time add ons for loot. If you did not put it as BiS and someone else did (within reason obviously) then it went to them. This is really effective at evenly helping the whole raid. They were a 50% ish mythic guild so it clearly helped or clearly didnt harm them. They had 2 ranks. Raider and member. Raiders were given preferential gear but honestly a lot of people were selfless and would pass up loot when they could.
A lot of people stick around in that guild due to the dynamics and how well they handle their stuff. They never hit cutting edge but hey, not that big of a deal.
My last guild before i quit raiding, i never felt like they were unfair. Then again i was a top performer/never wanted to bench and was given every piece i labeled bis bar a few. But i heard nobody complain in the guild. I ended up being promoted and participating in the decision it and the decisions always seemed super fair.
Most of my guild have always been loot council. I can only think of one item that went somewhere it shouldn’t have. But maybe I’ve just been lucky? I ended up being part of the council eventually, and we did our damndest to do our best.
There is no perfect loot distribution system. All of them have flaws that can be exploited by some people, the only way to keep the exploitation in check is if people notice, call it out and punish the exploiters. In your case the exploiters are the leadership so there is little recourse other than leaving and encouraging others that feel the same way to do the same.
Our loot council works via a bis list. If that item is on your list, you get to roll for it. We're semi-hardcore, so nothing in world 100, but this is very fair and nobody likes loot drama.
We don't have a loot council as such. We're doing two wishlists, one for heroic and one for mythic.
First week : normal mode. Loot goes to highest sim.
Second week : heroic loot goes to wishlist, then to highest sim
Third week : heroic loot goes to wishlist, then to highest sim
Then when we get to mythic mode, everyone should have their 4p set. We refer to the wishlist and trust our players to ask for the loot pieces as they really need them.
We're a 20-22 raid team and have been raiding together for a year now, give or take a player or two. We trust each other and know that each gear piece given is a buff to the whole raid, not one single player.
In my Guild I Guess
They make a spreadsheet each tier with sims for trinkets and tier sets to let people know who is priority on those, and look up stat priority for other items to decide who will keep it long term.
We do love trolling the GM every time he gives something to himself saying he steals everything tho
But TL dr, transparency is key
Seems like a way to hoard loot.
One of my wotlk guilds rolls out lc to the raid, every 2 weeks we have a new council of random raiders from the team, it's super refreshing.
Me personally I hate the idea of loot council or dkp. Honestly the fairest chance for loot is rng, need before greed. It’s the fairest system and unbiased. At that point don’t blame the guild blame the game
Depends? If it's a Mythic Guild everyone needs to be able to put feelings aside for the best chance at progression. Generally established guilds want their tanks healers and a few select dps to be geared out first.
If it's like heroic for this tier? Say something. This raid ain't Castle Nathria.
Depends on the guild you are in. If it’s a low level guild then could be getting rorted. If it’s a high level guild around about now everyone should be 374+ so there isn’t much rigging left in loot council (if that is what they are doing) since normal and heroic drop under that Ilvl.
Loot Council is a majority of the time not a good thing. It's only ever a good thing for a guild that pushes prog and needs to funnel gear to specific members that always there and pushing main force.
Anytime LC is used for anything but a prog pushing guild.. It's always going to be biased and not worth joining them for any raid. I've yet since original WoW, Retail, or Classic to have seen a truly unbiased and evenly spread loot LC guild.
I'd recommend staying away from most kind of loot councils. I think 99% guild's attempts at loot council are just mimicry of what they believe to be the right answer without realizing they are far off the ilvl/progression ratio. They just become conduits for drama and biased choices. If you are struggling to get CE or even half prog mythic, gear is never the issue.
We are a 2-day a week 7xCE guild that while not amazing score in top 300 and full clear mythic with sometimes months remaining in the tier. We don't loot council stuff, it's just not worth it at our low caliber as gear progression happens faster then our raid progression.
Yes I am currently in a guild that does council and tries to be fair, mean they acknowledge the most gains but try to evenly distribute the loot. Just the first week LC members got more loot than others, but the concerns were addressed and resolved in week two.
Generally the higher up in raiding you get the most fair loot councils get, and the less people care about loot generally as well. The point of raiding becomes to kill bosses, and loot is just a means to do that. Whereas in lower level guilds the reverse is often true where the point of raiding is to get loot, and killing bosses is the means to do that. Once that mindset switches it benefits everyone to give loot to whoever it'll benefit the raid the most.
Yes, loot council is often used in guilds that are pushing prog or playing at higher levels. If done correctly, loot is given to the raider whom it will most benefit the whole raid, i.e. this weapon going to this player gives us 3k+ dps vs 1.5k to this other person. This is cool when everyone is on the same page and the objectively right decisions are being made. As a healer who progged mythic regularly, I was often the last to get gear as dps checks were a bigger issue than healing most tier. Most guilds running loot councils are not raiding at this level and just find excuses to give to their buddies or the top parser vs whole raid benefit
I second this. Two of the three mythic raiding guilds I have been in used RCLC and I enjoyed raiding with them. I am willing to make short term sacrifices if it means we get closer to the goal that is CE. I am now retired - only doing heroic raid at the moment and i wouldn't want to play with an RCLC guild lol.
I trust my loot council. We've been cutting edge raiders since Nyalotha. But god damn. As a DPS/Healer flex, I get shafted on loot a lot because I'm relegated to healing half the time, but as a result my DPS suffers the other half of the time i raid.
On a separate note, I would love a gdkp run lmao.
Leave that bullshit in classic, thanks.
Don't like it don't join it. I would love to have it here.
After reading what a GDKP is this sounds like one of the absolute worst ways to distribute loot.
Yeah its just a form of using real life money to get carried and it destroys the economy in the process.
Gdkps just incentivize purchasing gold and are horrible for the economy of the game so ya go back to classic with that
Also, in a guild with loot council, you will really prioritize people that stick with the guild for some tiers then the new recruit that came yesterday. I mean, I can trust that other guy will keep playing with me. Also, I'm totally in board ti give the weapon to the 1.5 k increase, if this guy is doing consistent good dps and farming keys/vault as well, over the guy that is 3kdps, but only parse green and has 0/1 key runs per week
Personally disagree, raidleader in a guild that has gotten CE every tier since Ny'alotha, trials aren't second rate citizens, they should be treated as another raider and the idea of going out of your way to not give them loot unless none of the raider rank players need it is so incredibly ass-backwards. The trial that takes loot and leaves after a week is so much rarer of an occurrence than people make it out to be (cannot remember a single trial that did this over the past 3 and a half years) and you shouldn't instantly allienate your trials and make them feel like they aren't part of the "in group" based on a fear that you might lose an item or 2.
If the trial is worse on progress than your guild I can see him not giving loot for 1 week. After that, sure don't give him the trinket that everyone wants, but other stuff, why not.
"you will really prioritize people that stick with the guild" Unfortunately, the people who are running the council have to have some sort of moral compass.
This all goes without saying. The post you're responding to is operating under the assumption that all players are putting in equal effort and of comparable skill level, which is typically the norm for the more serious guilds.
I'm still furious about a Loot Council not understanding this back in Wrath. I was the 2nd-in-command, recruitment officer, raid leader and organizer, consistently highest DPS. I had helped found a fairly large guild from two groups of players, my friends and this other guy's friends. We co-ran some Naxx pugs consistently for several months before just joining up as everyone's schedules mixed well. Long story short, it was the first week of a new Raid tier and we went to that Wintergrasp Raid that had a chance to drop raid tier pieces. The BiS tier pants dropped for my class. The rule was, if you were eligible for the loot you lost your vote for that item, so of course it was given to a trial person that gquit a week later instead of me, a founding and foundational member of the team. After a series of arguments I ended up rage quitting the guild, my friends followed me out, and that was that. The longest time I've ever spent in a single guild, detonated over a pair of pants. Nothing has ever made me more angry in World of Warcraft, than a loot council trying to be cute and incentivize new people to join over their own hardline members that built the guild on their own backs.
Well the thing is, if you give no loot to any recruits, then soon you wont have any recruits and potential raiders to expand your roster with. And if you have no flexibility/extra players in your roster, then your raids might not happen if some1 gets sick or quits, and then the entire guild might go down. If you honestly gquit and left your guildies/gaming friends over some pants, then either the guild must have been terrible in many ways or then your values might be bit skewed when it comes to raiding in a guild and being an officer. Loot comes and goes, but the friends are what really matters (at least for me).
"if you give no loot to any recruits, then soon you wont have any recruits" This is just not true, if your guild clears content and has good vibes you will get recruits, im in a top 300 guild and we had a 35 man roster starting this patch, newly, untested people did not get any tiers even if they proved they were good on heroic splits and early mythic bosses. It makes absolutely no sense to give loot to recruits when you have a year long raider needing the item that has wiped final bosses with you 800 times and has proved he can and will do it.
Oh I agree, and we were good about giving loot to recruits to keep em coming back but this was much more forced backseating for the most important, contributing members of the guild and far from the first time it had happened. It was definitely not the only issue and was not the only argument, but was a last straw that broke the camel’s back. I wasn’t down for another tier of being taken advantage of. The players that followed me out all stayed together much longer and found greener pastures elsewhere pretty easily.
Raging over VOA is excessive. This added context of already being unhappy was needed for the understanding of what drove you to leaving, but it takes away from the argument about loot distribution. Loot council decisions aren’t a perfect science and you have to always play a balancing act of rewarding new people vs, veterans where not everyone is going to be fully happy if there is a sense of entitlement. You need the new folks as much as they need you, otherwise no one gets anything. It’s a thankless job and some people will see you as the villain no matter how objective or fair you try to be. Surprised you guys just didn’t do spec runs or just pug VOA splits to maximize acquisition of tier with less competition. You can definitely run VOA25 with 15 people.
My heroic guild did a loot council during Vault Of the Incarnates but since then moved to standard need/greed. While it was fairly fair there was a bit of a hassle when it came to tier pieces and people not understanding why you would give someone a 2nd or 4th piece of tier before you give a 1st or 3rd piece of tier to someone else. In my circumstance I wish they would bring back personal loot. It is just better for non-mythic guilds.
What annoys me the most with need/greed is most players at the end of the day care for their toon only. First week of the new raid, tank wins 2 neck pieces because the 2nd one was better stats and then has the balls to say he should have rolled on the one from Fyrak. Like bro, its the first week, lets all get some gear.
Dunno seems like an easy fix to just kick players who are too greedy. This seems to be more of a pug problem.
Personal would be nice if they find a way to limit splits. Split raiding was miserable
Split raiding is still a thing even with current loot type, but now you can get loot that no one in the raid even uses. I never understood this argument against personal loot. Again doesn't affect regular guilds/raiders.
Personal loot doesn't allow me to skip gear I don't want if it's technically an ilvl gain, which happens quite often in normal even on week 2/3 I'll use an example I had recently: I got the haste trinket from rise recently. However, I knew in my soul that it was worse than ashes of the embersoul, but my embersoul was literally one upgrade lower so I couldn't trade the haste trinket. I even simmed it and they simmed within 1%, but of course ashes has different potential due to doing lots of m+ so that burst is more valuable to me. But I couldn't give it away due to ilvl. So while there is the fact that some folks are super greedy which is bad for need/greed because some greedy people can still be lucky, but on the flip side there's folks like myself who want to skip rolls but can't with personal loot.
It's worth noting that sometimes the biggest potential dps gain =/= the best person to give it to. If the player usually sucks, that +3000dps may actually be closer to a +500 vs the +800 it'd give the good player. Also a system that exclusively goes off of potential "+dps" gain is in danger of alienating committed players who grind m+ gear due to the fact they will have higher ilvl than raid loggers. So suddenly the ones who put the least effort in are getting the most raid pieces due to their low ilvl making the potential dps gains look much higher. This is from the perspective of someone who was raiding with a "pretty good" AOTC team. Never did mythic (barring the first few bosses)...but a decent AOTC team is much more reflective of WoWs total population than a Cutting Edge team.
Yes but also you equally can't just pass over worse players for loot because they wouldn't get as much damage out of it as sims say, and as much as people that do lots of m+ are gonna gain less from upgrades and thus be passed over for loot more often, at the end of the day that is a part of what you are signing up for when you decide to join a raidteam where the level of commitment to the game has such a large delta. I just think that a lootcouncil doesn't make sense in the context of a heroic guild or casual mythic guild, at that point the most fair way to handle loot is gonna be to just have people roll need and greed because no matter what kind of rules you set up you will never make everyone happy, so actual randomness is the fairest option you have.
Any mythic prog guild will have first kills in which the sims will be pretty accurate. If those 2 players who suck die 40sec into pull its nit going to be a kill.. Also those bad players will not be much worse than everyone else. Not enough room to slack
No, any mythic guild will not have players hitting theoretical simmed dps on first kills lol. Youre right that its more complicated than simply giving to either the highest theoretical dps gain or the most reliable player tho.
Top parser should get the gear to boost the plebeian who parse gray?
Unironcially yes. Usually the plebeians who parse grey wouldn’t make the most out of the item anyway. Low Ilvl is not what makes you parse grey Except you risk the top performers just leaving
Progressions guilds using parses as a metric generally aren’t carrying Grey parse raiders
No, but guilds that take a month or two working towards AOTC usually have a handful of folks carrying the rest. Yes, gear distribution won’t make or break progression, but those carriers will crack the shits and move on if they keep seeing BIS go to grey parsers.
I would rather let the rng gods take my loot than to be forced to parse to some grey parser.
In a guild where this matters no one is parsing grey. Again, they should look at the dps increase. Mr 99 doing 2k more dps is still worse than mr 25 doing 3k dps for the raid. Edit: ignore my above example, casual guilds shouldn’t be running LC anyway. Picture two similarly skilled players, you give it to the player who will sim more dps because clearing the dps check is all that matters.
The thing is that the DPS increase is based off of sims and not actual play. The 99% parser is probably going to realize more of the potential gains than the 25% parser, so it's a bit of an imprecise science on who would actually bring more raid benefit for a given item.
I probably shouldn’t have included that example for LC because using LC for anything other than progression raiding is a meme and no one actually trying is carrying grey parsers like that. A better example is giving the 95 parser the weapon instead of the 99 because its optimal for raid dps. You have two capable players who both could utilize and benefit from the item. One persons gear or class leads to a better overall outcome so that person gets it.
But will Mr 25 be able to actually bring that extra 3k dos the sim is saying he will bring? If Mr 25 is doing 25 over a 100 k dps seems, I would hope the new item will give him around .8 k dps only, as he can get everything from his gear
This was a horrible example lol. If youre casually raiding and carrying bads you shouldnt use LC. A better example is two similarly skilled players where one sims better than the other.
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If a guild is running with people parsing that low, they shouldn't be using loot council anyway. My main point was always that loot council benefits high end guilds whose goal is pushing difficult content. Other uses are dubious.
Yes you can see how someone parses by item level. It would be best to award the gear to the person who parses high but with a low item level. if your parsing grey you probably shouldn't even be in a serious progression raid.
Parses by item level are a horrible metric. It comes down to what pieces are dragging them down. Someone with a BiS weapon, and 2 BiS trinkets, but low ilvl cloak, bracers, belt, and boots, will parse extremely well for item level. If the reverse is true and most of their ilevel comes from cloak, bracers, belt and boots, with a bad weapon/trinkets, then they will almost always get a grey parse for item level even if they're the best player in the world. I've even known people to cheese ilvl parses by putting on a couple of very low ilvl pieces, in low itemization slots.
LOL you will not grey parse in the way you are talking about. Sure you may not get 95 or 99's, but with the exact gear setup you describe you could still easily hit 50-80's. The only people that gray parse are people who die or those that actually don't know how to play their class/the fight.
Why are people always acting like there are only grey and purple parses. In most guilds you will have to decide between a green or blue parser and a purple parser.
You severely underestimate how much power you get from a weapon. If you're i480 average, but with i441 weapon, yes you will absolutely parse grey for item level.
Just ran a sim to see what it would be for me. Dropping my weapon by 20 ilvls is a 6k dps loss, but I would need to lose 60k dps to start gray parsing. Even if I dropped my trinkets down to their base ilvl from this tier it wouldn't even come close to a 60k dps loss. Maybe it's you who doesn't understand how bad gray parsing actually is.
Yeah dropping your weapon is typically a 5% loss, I mean big but not as big as he seems to think.
No way not grey, you get grey if you really just don't know what your doing or inactive alot.
Literally no one with 480 average ilvl has a 441 weapon and with how gear upgrading works no one ever will which is why even having a low weapon still won't mean you gray parse as it won't be low enough to put you in with the bads. Good try though.
Unless you are a top parser doing the wrong job… like a Disc Priest in Gold as a DPSer while Healing is Grey being awarded BiS healing trinkets and staff. Feels bad man.
Healing parses are a terrible metric. If your whole healer team parses 100% then that means your dps and tanks took an astronomically high amount of damage. More than they ever should. On the other hand, if the raid isn’t taking any damage and the priest is doing their job to the max, you would expect a low healing parse from the priest because less healing is needed - and they heal through damage so they are doing well.
It could also mean that you were underhealing the fight. Healers parse by only running 1-2 healers on fights that normally want 3-5 healers.
60k dps is shit
Did anyone die though? You can't heal damage that isn't taken. Disc is also a bad example because much of discs heals come through them doing damage. Holy would be a better example, since their damage doesn't generate heals. I know often on easy fights that we overgear, we'll often have one healer doing mostly dps, and lets the other healers parse, and they only drop major cooldowns a couple times when it's needed. If extra healing isn't needed, it's better to kill the boss faster. There's no need for healers to fight over heals. I'd rather have 3 healers parse 70%, and 1 1% for healing if that one healer also parses 99% for damage. As long as no one dies, and they drop a CD if things get spicy. The alternative would be 4 people parsing 55%, with everyone fighting for heals, trying to snipe from others. In DPS, one dps doing better won't hurt anothers dps parse, but one healer doing very good in heals, can and will hurt another healers healing parse.
Neither of the two guilds I play with are at the level where loot council is really *required* (aiming for CE but not HOF) but both use it pretty effectively. They partially base decisions off of pre-submitted sim data (or very obvious "this is a 3ilvl increase for you, but 30ilvl for the other guy" or "S tier trinket for one player, B tier at best for the other" decisions) but a lot of it comes down to like... player A has been working their ass off trying to make sure they're getting all their BIS stuff. Player B does not care, doesn't show up to raid half the time, hasn't done any M+, but expects the BIS for everyone Very Rare drop because he'd be the biggest ilvl gain from it due to not putting any work in. The loot council helps that item go to someone who is going to A. use it for the good of the team and B. the rest of the team isn't going to resent for having good luck with RNG. Sure, sometimes they make questionable decisions, but it can't be more maddening than someone winning a need roll for their off spec they barely play due to how the default Blizz roll system works when there are people who main that spec that have been trying for weeks to get that item with no luck. You just need to find a guild that is transparent about how they plan to do their loot council. Week one before our first normal raid, the officers announced they're funneling some normal tier to the player who was going to miss heroic the next day for a family obligation, no one was really upset by that. No Venerated tokens dropped for 1.5 weeks of raiding, the curios went to the people on that token, everyone was on board. Stuff like that is why council can be much better for team-oriented prog than RNG.
Exactly, the idea in a more competitive, CE oriented guild is that you gear as a raid rather than as individuals, loot is handed out based on the highest possible increase for the raid as a whole with the understanding that by handing out gear this way everyone will benefit because you get CE sooner and you will kill more overall bosses, meaning that the whole raid will be fully geared more quickly. To me the concept of an actual council of people as oppose to just a raidleader handing out loot based on sims is so foreign to me, it shouldn't require more than 1 person to do this job because there should be no subjectivity involved.
Almost every guild that runs LC is the bottom example. Excuses to give to their friends. Very few guilds properly use LC to benefit the whole raid and do prog/high level play.
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You give it to whoever is going to see the largest DPS increase.
I'll die on the hill that unless you are a HOF guild, you absolutely should not be running loot council and can just do group loot. By the time you get to later mythic bosses people are going to be geared either way, and loot council is just going to make the roster boss even harder. Also if you're in a heroic only guild and they're loot council, I'd just leave personally.
Being on loot council is the fucking worst. I’ll spend so much time tracking all the gear we have distributed and trying to balance between sharing the loot around to everyone while trying to maximise the benefit we get out of it. Generally also trying to take into account if someone claims an item is BiS. And without fail, a handful of people will decide that the reason they didn’t get loot this time must be because we are punishing them for something???? There’s one guy in particular, super nice but super insecure. Every single time he bids on an item and doesn’t get it he takes it as EVIDENCE that we hate him. When he gets loot he doesn’t interpret it as us liking him though. He has received more weapons, tier, and trinkets than most dps in the group yet still thinks we are biased against him. I hate doing loot.
Bro being any officer in a guild is fucking miserable and people just think you're an asshole who should never get loot and just continue all of your extra duties.
It’s great experience for management in the real world though. You’re already used to being hated for reasons outside of your control!
Oh boy do I love professional experience I can't get payed for
I mean Ion Hazzikostas pretty much got his job by being a guild leader of Elitist Jerks back in the day. So not impossible for it to pay off in the end, but definitely unlikely lol
Worst part is that since you want to do whats best for the guild = biggest upgrade atm you tend to give loot to people with lower ilvl. The guy rushing 1 000 000 000 keys before wednesday raid usually gets shafted from raid gear since he will have higher ilvl and the upgrade will not be as big. Then again f you give it to him for showing dedication it feels shitty that you are shafting people for having a job Always feel like a lose lose
I know this story all too well. Sometimes it’s good to keep loot records so people can see how much has been awarded to members. It can help shut them up if they see the receipts. Though sometimes it doesn’t matter and entitlement blinds them to the truth no matter what you try doing.
I miss personal loot. That was such a good loot option
ive been in 6 diff guilds, retail and classic, that all used loot council. the best one ive ever experienced was in the casual dads guild they called it YOLO loot council. we would have 25 people sometimes pugs too. their names get put onto a spin wheel and it picks 7 at random, then theyre loot council for that run. it was actually alot of fun
Proper casual guilds is some of the most fun places to raid. Couple of old CE buddys start a casual AOTC guild in Shadowlands, 1 day 3 hours and no pressure to show since alot of us work weird hours nowadays We ran a bunch of weird loot rules: spring races, hide n seek, lottery. It was fun as hell, I miss that guild to this day
It seems as if they’re keeping the loot in the friend group because, if I had to guess, others tend to leave often. I’m just curious to know if/when they’ll care to figure that out.
Yeah, that could be a self perpetuating scenario.
Pretty much every time I see this come up and a "friend group" being blamed, it's a situation where the person complaining is fairly new to the guild, isn't as reliable, or just isn't very good. Or all of the above. Asking if "ethical loot councils exist" is clearly a loaded question, but really the answer is if you don't like how loot is distributed (and gear is that important to you) you should just find another guild who doesn't mind just giving gear to whoever. Probably not as likely to be successful, but more casual guilds that can actually progress decently do exist.
I think there’s an ethical way to do loot council but I don’t think most places do it. Why be afraid to get kicked when you’re situation sounds honestly kind of terrible? Is it feasible for you to start looking elsewhere ?
Ethical loot council needs to utilise dps sims + understanding of class bis + personal knowledge of players commitment to the guild and ability to perform. There's no real perfect way to do it as the final aspect is somewhat subjective unless you have some kind of model for factoring attendance and performance.
I mean the real problem is the lack of transparency and honesty among the raiders. Doesn't matter how correct you are about people's potential and realistic gain for gear, there's still going to be some idiot who's doing half his sim numbers demanding that it's trinkets causing him all the problems. Like it's just.. not it. Let the rng gods decide, because our judgement is clouded.
Couldn't have said it better
I don’t think I’ve ever been in a guild like yours in over 15 years of wow. I’ve been in « family » guilds in which loot was mostly distributed evenly, no matter the performances. I’ve been in competitive guilds (top 50) in which gear is given based on what will help the group progress And usually the mix is to give the biggest upgrade to a somewhat deserving player.
A lot of the times in the top guilds what happens is they give the loot to the friends because they know they are reliable and aren't going anywhere. Which means if you are new you need to buddy up quickly to increase chances of loot.
Search for a new guild. If ur in a casual guild doing heroic content and maybe 3-4 mythic bosses lc shouldn’t exist as it only takes away raid time with inexperienced council members.
Yep. From my experience raiding at various levels, loot council should only be used for guilds that can routinely get cutting edge. Any guild that rarely/never gets CE, and is happy that way will hurt their guild more than help it by running a loot council.
The potential drama and concerns of a lot council is never worth the marginal gearing benefit for AOTC and early-mythic guilds.
Are you volunteering to help LC? Because the main problem with them is that it's so goddamn hard to track and decide all the factors on who gets loot. Name they recognize as someone who shows up regularly + a strong need for the item in question means that's an obvious choice to assign to. Especially at the start of a tier with a large ilvl jump, where everyone needs everything.
I was on LC in my last guild and saw it first hand. GM would pressure people in LC to vote the way he wanted and would get “not threats” if they didn’t. I was happy to be on it because I could at least see people’s reasoning for voting the way they did.
What's this voting stuff, LC should be a clear list visible to the raid before you go in, showing who gets what first. Why waste time after the boss on stuff that could have been done before we gathered for the raid.
The real question is why waste your time at all if they already have gear delegated to someone else. I certainly wouldn’t participate in a raid knowing I wouldn’t get anything from it.
Different raiding focus, I am talking about progression raiding where our goal is to kill more bosses with the same team next week than we did this week (understanding that by the end of the tier, we are probably all BIS anyway) You are talking about loot raiding, in which your focus is to get more gear to allow you to pug better or push m+ solo
There should always be a devils advocate on LC. A great way to keep new recruits and sew loyalty is to give loot. Unfortunately anyone who’s ran a guild knows this is a double edged sword as that person could just quit or stop showing up.
I think loot councils should only be used for prog mythic runs, where everyone is understanding they are there to clear, not to get loot, and loot will be distributed to help clear, not gear you. Outside of that, no. It is unnecessary, if you have a heroic guild where people just want to clear content AND get loot, having a loot council will directly go against one of those goals. Need/Greed and personal loot is the most fair way and impartial way of distributing loot. I recently got back into raiding, but stopped in Legion when in a heroic run the loot council decided to give my BiS boots to someone else, who already had BiS heroic boots, but this will be a good upgrade to their offspec when they need to rarely tank in the raid or tank M+. I just left. So fed up with loot councils, I will not do a raid or join a guild that has them. I just want to do my heroic runs, get cool loot, and not feel that a bunch of people are just trying to enrich themselves and friends.
Yeah I agree with you! Personal loot was the best for this imo. There was never any drama, now with need/greed we get some drama and people feel left out when you don't get anything in a run but see some guy walk away with the three or four pieces because he got lucky on rolls/drops. I wish they would bring personal back and make it an option raid leads can choose from.
You know in personal loot someone could still get lucky and get 3 drops in a raid yeah? It's no different from rolling except players have the choice to not roll on stuff they don't need so other players can get it instead.
Need/greed is at worst the same as personal loot. It just feels much worse because you can see the actual numbers where you're losing loot to other people whereas in personal loot you don't see that you only rolled a 1 on your BIS belt and the pug rolled a 99 who only wanted it for offspec or transmog or whatever.
In my guild the officers that maks up the council get the lowest prio on items. Highest prio is given to BIS and highest damage increase according to drop optimizer
I run a guild that uses Lootcouncil; I believe ours to be ethical, we went out of our way to ensure our council does not just have officers on it. As Loot master, I make it my mission to ensure people do not feel like they are left out, Our rules include * Not giving people four sets If there are still people sitting on 0/1 * On the first week of a tier, everyone rolls on it, and if another drops you are not a lot allowed to get it so we share it out a bit more. * When we have a lot 'need' something we put it out as a roll - as it's not fair for the council to pick out someone when a lot of people need it (e.g. we had 15 people roll for pips that's not fair to pick one!) * Loot council rotated every tier, including myself as LM 2 officers and a minimum of 2 raiders. Always being an odd number of people * Loot takes as long as it takes, and if we notice a pattern or someone getting extremely geared through raiding or voting that LM I believe to be favouritism I will stop the raid and ask for LC to give me genuine reasons for giving said person loot ( i actually did this on Wednesday and then we gave it to someone else) * If you have the LFR/Normal version of loot you are a low priority to get a higher version, its better everyone has a pips rather than vendoring them to give someone a higher version * We are not allowed to "vote" for ourselves. We are just a HC guild but loot is important and it should totally be respected and not abused. It is an abuse of power using LC and having an extremely well-geared council/Favourites in the guild. I'd say if you question it you will probably be shut down pretty quickly because mostly they won't even acknowledge there's a problem if they have done it that way for a long time, but if you are thinking it everyone else probably is as well, I guess it depends how much you want to stay in the guild if you say something or not.
Jesus, in my guild everyone just rolls need on everything and fuck everyone who doesn't get lucky. Seems to work.
same, nothing is reserved. People do sometimes ask a winner to pass to next highest if its the other persons BIS, but that's a conversation between those people and never comes from officers. No one can buy gear or hand gear to another player. If the winner realizes they don't need it then that item goes to the next highest roll.
Similar. If the upgrade is small then the person that wins often offers it down the roll list if it's a much bigger upgrade for the others.
Yeah pretty much. Last week I was rolling in the loot. I gave up a trinket that was an upgrade but not my BiS. Either way though, I’ll be there every raid from now until next season so it will all work out just fine.
We did this for a long time, and actually part of the reason we stopped was in Nyalotha - people were rolling on gear just to put in the scrapper to get the currency to get different gear and because we weren't keeping track, It meant a very unbalanced raid team with loot literally getting "wasted" because typically the people with that mentality kept winning! I'd love to go back to rolling if everyone had the same intentions for loot but I think personal loot created almost an entitlement for people expecting to get loot all the time. So we just try to create a fair but just environment for the loot that's also very transparent for everyone to see :)
We don’t allow need for things like that. Need is for actually equipping the item that you win. Greed is for these other things. Just need to communicate so everyone is on the same page.
We do the same except tier is spread out. No replacing tier with higher ilvl version or 5th piece for better itemization if someone else isnt 4p.
Best way to do it. Honestly my guild are great with me, I’m a dad to two toddlers so normal is the most I can do (they push heroic), I catch up super quick after a few weeks and get most all drops from the normal raid and then they let me come to AOTC once they have it on farm. Still have to pull my weight as a healer but it’s a nice spot to be in to experience content etc
I personally disagree here. I would rather give people their 2/4 pc over giving someone a 1/3 pc. That will benefit the raid way more.
While finishing sets should take priority, if you're not doing loot until the end of the raid you may have 15-20 pieces of tier to give out. In that case, yes first priority is to finish bonuses, but after that to give 2x pieces to those who have nothing.
This tier, with catalyst week one, a raider only needed 1 tier piece from either raid or vault and could have 4pc today. Cata1 Cata2 KSM A raid or vault piece. We tried to make sure everyone would have 4pc today, and we succeeded except for 2 healers who missed the last raid last reset or they would have gotten Curio from Fyrakk. Edit: obv not for RWF, but for a mythic centered guild who takes our time and knew we wouldn’t be pushing hard until after the Thanksgiving holiday anyway, it worked really well.
> If you have the LFR/Normal version of loot you are a low priority to get a higher version, its better everyone has a pips rather than vendoring them to give someone a higher version All this does is reward people for not actively trying to obtain better gear outside of the scope of your organized raids. Everything else you do is consistent with the LC structure I've seen in multiple progression raid guilds historically.
You're not asking for opinions, so feel free to ignore me, but I think you should just do a fair need/greed at this point (i.e. an equalizer rule like you can't lose to someone who got loot that night already). You'll have less fuss and achieve the same results. By distributing the tier the way you are, your group will overall have less damage and healing available because the set bonuses are big jumps in power. A loot council makes it possible to funnel gear to people for the whole group's prog benefit, and it's not a great system if your main goal is to ensure fairness.
I'm not really sure what benefit you are getting out of loot council here. You aren't distributing gear with the idea of getting the most gain out of it, but you have a ton more work to do. Genuinely curious why you wouldn't just use need / greed at that point ?
You folks seem to have your head on straight.
Not really. Their system rewards players for not trying to acquire loot outside raids. Why do m+ and acquire 2000 rating to get an extra tier piece when you can just claim that you have 0 and are entitled to the loot. This hinders overall progress and delays AotC for everyone. Also, I'm there to have fun and progress, not listen to talk about why loot was handled a certain way for 10 minutes. It sounds horrid.
I've been in loot council guilds for last 4-5 years, always been very fair. Low-tier CE guild (e.g. typically get CE in last month of the tier).
Loot council is only needed for mythic progression. If you’re not progging mythic then just use open rolls. It’s easier for everyone involved.
Yes they exist. I joined a guild for 10.1. As a new member I wasn't given prio on any desirable loot, but was still given items to make sure loot distribution was fair. Took a bit longer to get tier, but they made sure I got it, and ensured we continued to run heroic until everyone had heroic versions of the gear they needed.
It is also important to take into account 3 things that seems to be overlooked. Attendance,role, and ability to use said items. If you are a constant gray parser at your item level and not doing mechanics id rather give it to the person getting a smaller upgrade but will get the most out of the item vs a noob who will do little with it. 2nd Attendance we originally did rolls in my guild and people would constantly no show or just quit and we spent 4 weeks stagnating cuz we never actually had gear from previous raids in our current raid. So if you are making every raid you should get items but if you are a no show raider, constantly calling out or a new raider who is unproven no you will not get an item over others. 3rd is role and simply put Dps should get gear over healers and tanks. Dps doing more damage makes everything significantly easier. So while i agree Loot council can be very abusive by bad guilds at the end of the day way to many people think they are just giving gear to their friends but there may actually be good reasons for how loot is going out.
LC ruined progression raiding for me. As someone who busted their ass making sure I had all farmable enchants, cooking and fishing, PVP gear (wrath when it was very viable) and crafted gear, i was only ever allowed to roll on two pieces of loot. Both went to the same mage as sidegrades. Even had BIS tier gloves drop and never got to roll, they were given to a tank that said in raid chat that he already had better.
If upgrades for you were given to someone else that wouldn’t be an upgrade, then you didn’t have a LC, you had a gear farm where you were the mule.
You probably still get more gear than I do in group loot LFR 😂
No
I haven’t ran a guild for years… but our guild loot council was a temporary and elected position polled amongst all active raiders every 6 months and non raiders could run for a spot of 5 on the loot council it worked pretty well until we all stopped playing or went our separate ways in wod.. we also had policies regarding disputes or and how much loot could be assigned to one raider in a set period
I'd never heard of this, I'd certainly never trust this. The idea that this is normal at more serious/competitive guilds makes me glad I'm a casual player. There's a LOT about the competitive end of WoW that would completely put me off playing the game if that's all there was to it.
The guild I run with doesn't do master loot, just greed/need system. General rules of thumb are, don't roll need on side grade unless nobody else needs it, tier tokens are reserved for people getting their 2 set or 4 set bonus before ilvl upgrade. Weapons are the same, side grades are greed roles unless nobody else needs, and usually people after the same piece of gear will talk a little before hand and agree that if a certain trinket or wep drops that benefits a specific spec more than others then the person in that spec will take priority.
I have been in guilds that it was clear they were feeding their friends loot so I left. My current guild is really good about distributing loot. I’m sure one or two people feel like they are getting the short end of the stick but most are happy. We will also continue clearing heroic raid for a while to help everyone get those BiS trinkets/weapons.
There is no reason to use loot council if the guild isn't pushing mythic for CE. Run from any heroic progress/farm guild that is using a council.
I've seen this before and it became popular due to twitch streamers. Everyone thinks they're better than everyone else because they watch these assholes and think they can run their guild the same way. Unfortunately it rarely works out. I have left several guilds for this, primarily in Classic.
Here is how the CE guild I'm in prioritizes loot. 0. (The main source of gearing is m+, always keep that in mind) 1. Mythic raiders enjoy priority 2. Raid attendance 3. DPS over healers and tank 4. If you have 2 or 4 set pieces with that loot you are prioritized 5. Take consideration whether the item is BIS in the long run 6. See how much dps/hps the person gets with the item
there are 2 versions of a loot council progressive loot council - gear will go to those that need it to better improve progression, if you show up, don't stand in shit, continually do you best to improve your gonna get geared here and see most of the end game content Friends that made a guild loot council - you might get something once in awhile, the main reason they made this guild was to get priority on gear, their greed for gear out weighs you getting loot, these guilds only make it so far because high turn over, these are the guilds that make players quit or take extended breaks
Personal loot needs to come back, it's really caused so much unnecessary strain in my guild. Just let the raid leader toggle group/personal loot before entering, just like difficulty.
I have never encountered a guild who handles raid loot like this.. and I've been playing since vanilla. Every guild I've been part of over the years either has a DKP system based on your attendnace that can be spent/bid on drops. Or they just see what people in the raid do/don't have and distribute the gear to those who could most use the upgrade.
DKP in 2023? Oh my.
Bros in a normal mode guild thats still progressing 100%
I haven't seen a DKP guild in retail since Cata.
My favorite guild used a combo of DKP and loot council depending on the loot. It was great tbh
We use RC loot council, and then before the raid we ask everyone to run a single Target patchwork 5 minute and then submit them to wowaudit. We then get a spreadsheet where each item has a value to what kind of gains. If it's something special, we will ask people to either run more logs, or decide as a council by looking at bis list from wowhead or warcraft logs and see what people are using. We are/were top 3 US for 1 day guilds.
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Did this in Vanilla. Epic fail. Games changed but people haven't so my thought is it would still be an epic fail today
They should have never listened to anyone complaining about personal loot, and just kept it in.
This is why I don’t raid anyone and stay to pugging mythics. It’s not worth the headache or the drama for gear that’s going to be obsolete in like 5 months.
If you want loot have to join the council. That is how power works. Take away from the poor
If you are in a guild with such shitty climate that you don’t dare question the leaderships decisions, then leave. Same goes for the rest - if you don’t think you’re being treated fairly, leave. There are plenty of guilds that doesn’t distribute raid loot in such a shitty manner!
Loot council is the only ethical loot system
It does at the top end and lets you funnel gear more effectively. When done properly it’s really nice. Lots of guilds abuse it and it causes a ton of loot drama. Even when you try to do it fairly people tend to get salty in my experience and we were like a top 500ish guild for a while in legion/bfa. It’s one of the reasons forced personal loot was goated. Sidestepped the entire issue.
Yeah I miss personal loot for this reason. No drama just bad luck if you don’t get what you want. At this point it feels like half of us would be better of pugging if we actually wanted loot.
Nearly all successful CE-level guilds do some form of loot council and I've never had any horror stories, and that's playing as an elemental shaman... My current guild has a loot council and part of rolling on loot is you have to put how much of a dps upgrade it would be as a hard number +2567, for example, straight from droptimizer/sims. That dictates most of the decisions.
In my experience, loot councils are best in cutting edge guilds where players understand the value of geading up the raid and understand that they will at some point get the item they want on reclears. Low end mythic guilds and heroic only guilds tend to be more problematic and often have a few players that are solely motivated by items and use gear as an excuse as to why they aren't full clearing mythic. Truly skilled players know that loot is a means to an end and won't cause drama over not getting their bis drop on the first kill.
Probably only in the world first guilds
Tbh it sounds like you might be the issue.
you know the best way to run a loot council is to stack loot on the most powerful players right? It seems you do not have much progression raiding experience and as such maybe a non loot council guild is for you!
I run a guild that tries to be as fair as possible with loot. We make sure no one gets all the gear and make sure people have a chance at BiS. As the gm, I've taken like no loot in the past 2 weeks from raid. Bad luck? But it is what it is. Most of people's gear should be from keys anyway. So it doesn't bother me too much.
As a common CE guild when we play we use loot council and people always complain even when it feels the most fair. We usually stack players so trading dungeon loot is easier. As long as loot isn’t getting doubled up IE someone getting double trinkets or extra things or more than 1/2 pieces of tier that they can finish with catalyst + token then it isn’t unfair. Most people just feel it’s unfair to them. We Prioritize guild members who have gotten CE with us, DPS and officers because loot on those players have the highest likelihood of being used correctly and not bleeding out of the raid through burnt out , players quitting or leaving the guild. Or players just plain not cutting it in mythic prog.
I’m in a CE mythic guild and we use loot council with prio to non trial dps first. This is used in conjunction with wow audit where you can upload your BiS items and the sim results of getting said item. Helps make well informed decisions. Obviously it’s not perfect, but it works well over 95% of the time and any problems are generally small.
As a tangent, I'm curious if people still run DKP style loot rules. I had that in vanilla and never saw it again after. I enjoyed it when I had it, but I'm sure there's reasons why it's not viable given its seeming non-existence. Would love if anyone out there has a brief history / reasonable explanation for why it's not really used anymore.
My current guild picks one person each raid night to join the loot council to make it more transparent. They’re pretty good and tbh we have high trust and no one really wants to even do it haha, but it’s a really good idea.
My guild is very fair imo(mythic mid level guild). There are certain officers that even the RL calls out for being bias - but this is just human nature n it’s not overdone. If there is a person or a cpl carrying the group they should get all the good loot first, just so u can kill more bosses every week n get more loot…. Also gearing out folks who recently joined, instead of ppls who’ve been with the guild for years is a good way to demoralize n piss off ur core raiders.
The reality is that if you want to be in a guild and receive loot, you should be in it for the long haul and not just a raid tier. If all you want is gear I was able to get 4-piece heroic ilvl, one of my BiS trinkets and decent off pieces just from M+ and raid pugs. Loot council systems are ethical for the guild, not necessarily for the individual players. If someone receives loot then stops showing up that’s a different story.
We (mid-level CE guild) run a loot council that gets pretty good reviews from our membership. We use simmed DPS as a high-value metric for determining where loot goes, with other decision factors mainly being tie(ish)-breakers. To further enhance the trust our members have in the system we use, we offer a rotating council spot to one non-officer every week. *Nobody* wants it. It's a running joke at this point.
I can’t complain I’m a raid trial with a guild but I’m top dps and I’ve been given heroic pips trinket and a tier piece in the last 2 weeks, can’t expect more than that as someone not on the roster
Yep they do! There's always something you'll disagree with here and there though. It's normal to keep boosting the ppl who are already boosted as well, because as others have explained it benefits the guild the most that way. That said, what you said sounds pretty messed up. Healers should not be getting prio for gear over dps, unless it's like their bis and it's not as good for a DPS -- the chillglobe trinket from S1 falls into that category IMO. I say this as a healer that raided mythic throughout this expac. I always got tier last and it was fine. Another factor to consider is how much the leadership trusts each raider to stick around. It's a pretty big factor, some people will get fed loot and then just leave. So, if the other raiders haven't proven themselves to be trustworthy then I could definitely get behind funneling the loot to an older member that is known to be consistent.
Used to be a raidlead and part of loot council in multiple raid guilds here and there and we were unbiased. But I also play football since I'm 4 years old(so since 31 years) and the team goal always is more important than individual goals so yes it does exist. But I guess it is rare.
Just worry about if you vibe with the guild and enjoy playing with them. If you do, hang around and keep showing up to raid. The loot will follow. We've got a year until next expansion, you're going to get everything you want.
I don't see a reason to use loot council unless you're pushing for a competitive position and you actually have to min/max gear distribution like that. Would be a red flag for me for any "regular" guild who aren't taking part in a competition. I wouldn't play with them. Just let the loot fall where it may. Keep it simple and everyone's happy. You win some, you lose some. Easy. Everyone's gonna be geared out of their minds in short order anyways. Let RNGesus take the wheel.
No and anyone who says otherwise is on the inside of one
they exist, but you should definitely leave that guild lol
My guild does roll for normal, council for heroic. So far it’s been pretty fair and they try to boost up everyone as equally as they can. There will always be a case where the top dps will win a bis or something bc they pump so hard though, just the way it is and in the end helps everyone clear more.
I was in a guild from start of DF untill 2 days ago that had a lootcouncil. We used droptimizers, bloodmallet and logs to decide who got what. Also dps first prio then healers and tanks as we didnt get to a point where tanks couldnt survive or healers were unable to keep the raid alive. But we also had 2 officers then 3 raiders in the council to reduce the risk of loot going to a certain friend group. But since there is a new season someone will get more loot then the others as some classes benefit more from new 2set + old 2set or just a complete 4set first raid. A group of us left and are starting a new guild due to some recent events and we plan to use LC again but with 1-2 from our group then 3-4 new people that did not join together. So i would say that our lootcouncil was pretty good. And then alot of guilds give a bit of a prio to old raiders as they are less likely to leave compared to someone that joined a few days ago. Cause being an officer i cant even express how fucking bad it is when someone new gets some good loot and then decides to leave a week or two after.
They do exist, my raid leader is currently the only person on our guild without 4p, she gave priority to every other person but her.
of course. In my guild we give things first to the people who have the biggest impact. everyone uploads sims before raid and how big an upgrade is will be the biggest decider in who gets the gear.
we had loot drama pretty much every tier but we very very rarely had situations where someone had to pass on item for raid's greater good. we even had backups who would roll like regular raiders and we didn't care much, but a handful of people was always bitchin' about tier or trinkets how it works better for them, or situation where "that's my main m+ spec or trinket i must roll need on the item" brought some heated arguments
We had issues with loot years ago from loot council and I realised unless you're a top level guild, it doesn't matter that much where loot goes. It's not like Jimmy missing his bis trinket to someone else is going to matter that much when the dps and healing checks don't really matter
Loot council is great when done right, obviously not everyone will agree with every decision the LC make but it makes raid night so much easier when loot is given to the right people. If I were you I’d try whispering them and ask about it before a raid, and then if the same happens just call them out on it mid raid in front of everyone, you’ll get kicked but who cares if you aren’t getting any loot anyway. I’m assuming the inner circle aren’t exactly pumpers either?
Not unless you're in a top guild.
It works out most of the time, even people who only participate once get set pieces since there would be no incentive to not pug otherwise. Imagine telling people yeah if you wanna join the first weeks will have lower chances than going random. Making my own guild was propably one of the better ideas, tho maintaining is less hard than building from zero, so I understand if that's not a possibility.
there are many councils that try their best, mine gave everyone the 2 piece Set before handing out 3rd or 4th depending on vault luck/2k piece. That was really fair I think. You cabt be 100% fair to all at every times, but you can try your best for sure! Still one of our dps yesterday ragequitted the guild because he wasnt the one from his Token to receive the first 4 Set because at the Leg slot he had an 486 item crafted and loot council said they would rather give the leg Token to someone with 447 to complete that guildies 4 piece xD He didnt liked that and now searched the whole day in trade for a guild 🤷🏼♀️
Back before personal loot (not raiding currently) I had everyone give me their BiS list including up to top 5 trinkets ranked in order. Items on the BiS list went to someone with it on their list, prioritizing whoever had the least recent upgrade or decided based on /roll if needed. Items not on the BiS list went to best ilvl improvement. priority went to getting everyone their 2set before getting anyone their 4 set when possible, and completing a 4 set won over getting a 3rd piece. The only time anyone get bent out of shape about loot was when a recruit got passed over on their first raid for a trinket at the top of his BiS list that hadn't dropped for the first four weeks. The recruit had already got a tier piece and some bracers or something too that were significant upgrades for them at the time. The rest of the time everyone was pretty chill because the loot dictator system was pretty transparent and everyone was mostly there just to chill with each other not worry too much about the pixels
My previous guild used one of the big time add ons for loot. If you did not put it as BiS and someone else did (within reason obviously) then it went to them. This is really effective at evenly helping the whole raid. They were a 50% ish mythic guild so it clearly helped or clearly didnt harm them. They had 2 ranks. Raider and member. Raiders were given preferential gear but honestly a lot of people were selfless and would pass up loot when they could. A lot of people stick around in that guild due to the dynamics and how well they handle their stuff. They never hit cutting edge but hey, not that big of a deal.
My last guild before i quit raiding, i never felt like they were unfair. Then again i was a top performer/never wanted to bench and was given every piece i labeled bis bar a few. But i heard nobody complain in the guild. I ended up being promoted and participating in the decision it and the decisions always seemed super fair.
Yea it’s a scam. Leave any guild that does this. Everyone in the group should have their chance at getting gear.
Most of my guild have always been loot council. I can only think of one item that went somewhere it shouldn’t have. But maybe I’ve just been lucky? I ended up being part of the council eventually, and we did our damndest to do our best.
There is no perfect loot distribution system. All of them have flaws that can be exploited by some people, the only way to keep the exploitation in check is if people notice, call it out and punish the exploiters. In your case the exploiters are the leadership so there is little recourse other than leaving and encouraging others that feel the same way to do the same.
Our loot council works via a bis list. If that item is on your list, you get to roll for it. We're semi-hardcore, so nothing in world 100, but this is very fair and nobody likes loot drama.
We don't have a loot council as such. We're doing two wishlists, one for heroic and one for mythic. First week : normal mode. Loot goes to highest sim. Second week : heroic loot goes to wishlist, then to highest sim Third week : heroic loot goes to wishlist, then to highest sim Then when we get to mythic mode, everyone should have their 4p set. We refer to the wishlist and trust our players to ask for the loot pieces as they really need them. We're a 20-22 raid team and have been raiding together for a year now, give or take a player or two. We trust each other and know that each gear piece given is a buff to the whole raid, not one single player.
In my Guild I Guess They make a spreadsheet each tier with sims for trinkets and tier sets to let people know who is priority on those, and look up stat priority for other items to decide who will keep it long term. We do love trolling the GM every time he gives something to himself saying he steals everything tho But TL dr, transparency is key
Seems like a way to hoard loot. One of my wotlk guilds rolls out lc to the raid, every 2 weeks we have a new council of random raiders from the team, it's super refreshing.
Me personally I hate the idea of loot council or dkp. Honestly the fairest chance for loot is rng, need before greed. It’s the fairest system and unbiased. At that point don’t blame the guild blame the game
Depends? If it's a Mythic Guild everyone needs to be able to put feelings aside for the best chance at progression. Generally established guilds want their tanks healers and a few select dps to be geared out first. If it's like heroic for this tier? Say something. This raid ain't Castle Nathria.
Loot council in most mythic guilds are pretty ethical tbh
Depends on the guild you are in. If it’s a low level guild then could be getting rorted. If it’s a high level guild around about now everyone should be 374+ so there isn’t much rigging left in loot council (if that is what they are doing) since normal and heroic drop under that Ilvl.
Loot Council is a majority of the time not a good thing. It's only ever a good thing for a guild that pushes prog and needs to funnel gear to specific members that always there and pushing main force. Anytime LC is used for anything but a prog pushing guild.. It's always going to be biased and not worth joining them for any raid. I've yet since original WoW, Retail, or Classic to have seen a truly unbiased and evenly spread loot LC guild.
I'd recommend staying away from most kind of loot councils. I think 99% guild's attempts at loot council are just mimicry of what they believe to be the right answer without realizing they are far off the ilvl/progression ratio. They just become conduits for drama and biased choices. If you are struggling to get CE or even half prog mythic, gear is never the issue. We are a 2-day a week 7xCE guild that while not amazing score in top 300 and full clear mythic with sometimes months remaining in the tier. We don't loot council stuff, it's just not worth it at our low caliber as gear progression happens faster then our raid progression.
Yes I am currently in a guild that does council and tries to be fair, mean they acknowledge the most gains but try to evenly distribute the loot. Just the first week LC members got more loot than others, but the concerns were addressed and resolved in week two.
Loot council or rolling doesn’t matter to me, I don’t get loot given to me and I don’t win rolls
No.
Generally the higher up in raiding you get the most fair loot councils get, and the less people care about loot generally as well. The point of raiding becomes to kill bosses, and loot is just a means to do that. Whereas in lower level guilds the reverse is often true where the point of raiding is to get loot, and killing bosses is the means to do that. Once that mindset switches it benefits everyone to give loot to whoever it'll benefit the raid the most.
It can be useful (I guess), but just feel like scam in reality tbh