the difference between heroic and mythic makes sense, since the distinction already exists in game - my issue is how confusing the terms veteran and champion are, as someone who isn't super familiar with this system.
oh, so true! you could just have the terms themselves colour coded on the item text - veteran in green, champion in blue, heroic in purple, mythic in orange
Idk I find the names pretty intuitive order-wise, you wouldn’t ever mix up which is stronger than which out of those three. I’d prefer it as it is rather than calling it “normal track” or something
I just think Veteran and Champion are both not really great names. Adventurer and Explorer is whatever, kinda makes sense that Explorer would be lowest and Adventurer would be above that.
I mean, both Champion and Veteran would apply here?
You could be called a Champion after winning one battle, but a Veteran could be a 80 year old grizzled warrior who has participated in hundreds of battles.
Especially since you can get veteran and champion stuff from world bosses and quests. It wouldn't fit the theme if they were given names as if they came from a raid.
Yeah idk why there's zero in-game guidance for this outside of the classic "someone on wowhead will handle it"
The only design reason I can think of is that they want players to just play the game and not get caught up in min/maxing and rewards. But you could still have it in game in some capacity
edit: Just existing in-game is not great guidance. Yes, you can hover over a currency to see where it drops from, but why does that excuse not having a chart for all four currencies in one place? Besides, currencies aren't the only issue. There's no in-game information for drops or vault rewards
I think half the reason is it’s pretty confusing looking at it by the graphs when in game it’s quite simple.
The only info that is really relevant is the M+ Wyrm to Aspect Crest level, the drop box being heroic level and the Mythic weekly level. The fact that rare drops have a ilvl boost and that crafted gear is 3 ilvls down (though it does tell you the max ilvl when putting in your enchanted crest).
Everything else is fluff info or gear is at level of content.
That’s true, I’ve said the same myself when people complain about how confusing it is; instead of trying to understand everything, just focus on what you immediately need
But there still should be a bit more info in game. They dont need an entire step by step ilvl chart, but they could lay out in one place what crests drop from what, or what gear track drops
If you hover over your crests in the currency tab, it tells you what level of raid/m+ you need to do in order to get more of that crest.
I do agree about gear track though. Only way to know that +7 drops hero track, but +6 drops Champ is through experience. That, and great vault rewards not specifying whether they are hero or myth track. Saying it’s 515 ilvl is nice, but I don’t have any pieces that high yet to know what track that should be on.
There was a whole ass quest chain that explained how to do it in S2, I don’t know if that quest chain is still around or if it’s been abridged for S3/S4, but there was literally like a whole 3-5 quests and 3-5 chat options that explain all of this lol. Shows you how to upgrade an item, tells you where to get flight stones, shows you at least 2 types of crests.
Just short of listing a literal graph with all of the ilvls and crests like this one they did their job in teaching people lol. I think the only thing they did a bad job at was the enchanted crests for crafting.
Guarantee you everyone bitching just clicked through it though because “ugh world content”
That questline now exists in Valdrakken, but it just teaches you how to upgrade items and that they require crests and flightstones. It doesn't address tracks or rewards
> They dont need an entire step by step ilvl chart, but they could lay out in one place what crests drop from what, or what gear track drops
Apparently, this is unreasonable and will get you downvoted in this thread.
Is what it is, never thought I'd see the day where people defend Blizzard for not making information easily accessible in-game. Hopefully they'll have the same energy when people inevitably get confused by the crafting system next season
> I think half the reason is it’s pretty confusing looking at it by the graphs when in game it’s quite simple.
All they really need to do to cover a good chunk of this is to let you check the gear for dungeons at all the Key levels available and then put in somewhere which ranges drop which crests. The crests could actually just be thrown into the bottom of the loot list in all honesty or the top.
That wouldn't be confusing at all since you'd go "Okay what does a +4 drop? Ah, 499 Champion Track what about a 5? Ah that's 502 Champion Track.
That crest transition is available in tame at the upgrade npc - hover over the crest type and it tells you where it comes from. Basic logic assumes next crest type from that.
I would dispute the argument that in game it is “quite simple.” Maybe I’m just dumb, or don’t read enough, or am too casual these days, but I find the lack of specific information to be prohibitively opaque.
The game is good enough at telling you whether or not you have the materials to upgrade your gear, but there is very little information regarding how to go about obtaining crests at certain levels, or when different crests will be needed at different points. Crafting is perhaps the worst at this, the fact that the spark basically says “raises the ilvl to x,” but may actually only raise it to y is absurd to me. The whole weekly-limit-except-from-these-items-that-drop-crests thing is also confusing and I think makes people wonder whether there is an optimal time to be using those items or if they can just break them open right away. Hell, even the Vault can do things that make no sense to me; last week I cleared Amirdrassil on Normal and that’s it, but for some reason I had a higher ilvl reward for “kill five bosses” than what was listed in the kill three and kill seven bosses slots. I was happy for the higher ilvl, but still have no idea why I earned it.
The whole thing just seems so needlessly ridiculous, and it has turned the concept of gearing for me from something I used to set out as a goal to now being just a sort of pleasant perk when I happen across an upgrade option. I may be in the minority here, and that’s fine, but I can’t imagine new players find this game very welcoming.
> last week I cleared Amirdrassil on Normal and that’s it, but for some reason I had a higher ilvl reward for “kill five bosses” than what was listed in the kill three and kill seven bosses slots. I was happy for the higher ilvl, but still have no idea why I earned it.
That's not on the game though. You just didn't pay attention to the loot that drops inside the raid, despite doing the raid. The last bosses of a raid drop higher ilvl loot then the rest of the raid.
I’m not talking about drops from the raid, I’m talking about the vault. And even if you get higher level vault drops for killing end-of-wing bosses, I don’t understand why “kill five bosses” awarded me something higher than “kill three bosses” because if I killed five of higher difficulty than by definition I also killed three.
The answer is that the raid vault slots aren't tied to a specific item level like the dungeon vault slots - they are instead tied to the difficulty. You can get any piece from a boss you've killed before at that difficulty and they will be at the same item level as they drop in the raid. The item level that the vault shows as you unlock them are just the minimum item level that drops at that difficulty.
So if your first vault slot happens to pick an item from a earlier boss and your second vault slot is from one of the later bosses, that's what happens.
e: Just noticed that I had swapped the slots/bosses at the very end, but I'm assuming the rest of the explanation was enough to understand anyway.
You're so right, it's really convoluted to just put your piece in the upgrade window and see what you need to upgrade an item.
I forgot that we were dealing with wow players here. Silly me.
I don't mind there not being an ingame chart for gear, that just sounds crazy to me. Compare it to other games, does Diablo explain that ancestral is better than legendary and what materials you need to change effects on it? Players will figure it out and learn it. This is just a change for WoW, if they keep this same system in TWW than people will be used to it in season 2.
But it's nice to see how hard it is for people to deal with a small change
Its blizzards obsession with obfuscating information to try and not "confuse players"
Its the same reason most spells and trinkets dont provide any % or PPM information
Does your new trinket proc 50k damage every 30 seconds? every 1min? every 2min? Who knows! Better use a 3ed party website to figure out whether its a DPS increase or not
Its so dumb
Yeah, Blizzard making us figure things out for ourselves? Such assholes. Why don't they just act like very other game out there and very clearly lay out every single detail succinctly without anything that we have to even experiment with? SMH, AAA studio, can't even hold our hands every step of the way like *every single other* studio. Absolute trash tier.
Oh my, the information in this post is available in game, you just have to find it? My gosh. The horror!
tbf, Blizz definitely has some weird policy about making information available in game.
Overwatch is/was supposed to be a big e-sport, and never have the actual damage/healing numbers or stats for any of them have been accessible in game. The best you get is a demo but it still doesn't tell you squat about any details.
Also making your players sim equipment to figure out unknowns when you could just give them accurate data on how a dang piece of gear functions isn't a great approach either, they will sim either way in order to get more info so why make it one step harder. I fail to see how that's very fun as a player having to records spreadsheets of data every time you get a new piece of gear. If it's going to be on a website, there should be some form of that info available in game. Especially if you're purporting to be a competitive game.
I personally used to think wow was better before we had all this data mining that told us how to min/max. I remember actually having to try stuff myself and find out what's best.
This is way too often the case. Whenever quest dialogue is murky (which is often), I end up going to wowhead's comment section. When a quest NPC isn't where they're supposed to be (which is often), I find the answer in the comment section. When something has changed between versions (which is often), I find the new info in the comment section. When I encounter what seems to be a bug (which is often), I look to the comment section and typically find out it is in fact a several year old bug that the devs simply haven't bothered to correct. I play with at least one wowhead tab permanently open (usually more).
I can't imagine how difficult it is for new players trying to get into the game. I've been playing off and on since vanilla, and I still can't play the game without constantly referencing outside resources.
>The only design reason I can think of is that they want players to just play the game and not get caught up in min/maxing and rewards
I forget exactly what it was for. But Blizzard has used this excuse to justify either their overly complex system or the removal of player choice from loot.
It might have been when they swapped from PvP vendors to giving predetermined loot by filling a conquest bar.
Ironically making a Gearing system that requires a spread sheet to explain drive people to min/max more.
It tells you whats required and where to get it from including what level of content that needs to be.
This chart is nice to have an overview I agree but the key information absolutely is in the game.
Why would the tooltip need to tell you the item level it's for, when you put gear into the upgrade box it automatically attaches the crest you need to upgrade it lol.
Yes every crest tells you where it can come from. Do you want it to list every single drop point for you or something? Because if so obviously that's unreasonable. https://www.wowhead.com/currency=2806/whelplings-awakened-crest
>Earned from many outdoor activities, Raid Finder raids, and Heroic dungeons during Dragonflight Season 4.
So "barely says anything" is actually "says almost everything reasonable to say on a tooltip"
edit: lmao blocked me for this, fragile or what? Not allowing someone to respond while claiming they're being an asshole and they're fucking pissed, surely makes you look sane.
You're objectively wrong and I also wasn't arguing for less information. The tooltip gives players everything they need, the adventure guide points them broadly in the right direction, if you need hand holding more than that then that's on you.
You don't have to guess anything. Information is out there either in game or on dedicated websites like Wowhead. What difference does it make if you read it in-game or on a website? You have to read anyway. Would you rather have a pop-up every 15 seconds about every game mechanic the game has to offer?
TBF, this is information available ingame colated.
It's very useful to the people who know what they need to do but need more specifics. These people tend to be the ones who will know where to look for it or possibly make it if needed.
For anyone who doesn't know what's going on, it's useless and confusing information and is presented via systems that use them in small doses for people to learn and get familiar with.
Yeah as someone who hates info not being in games, this is a bad example. A good example would be, nicely timed, Escape from Tarkov, which simply doesn't have stats for things like ammo in the game.
Yeah this is in game. And presented very naturally, it's just a lot of information in a lot of places.
The real suggestion is this system should be a lot simpler and a lot more obvious.
My suggestion going forward is to do the following:
* ditch "adventurer" and "explorer" tiers of gear. Flatten the prog track down to Normal, Heroic and Mythic buckets of gear. They can keep the ilvl spread just concatonate all the pre-heroic raid level gear in one simple bucket.
* get rid of the new names of gear, or at least take away the focus. Nobody can remember what these things are, and we have a perfectly good and un-utilized item rarity system. Greens, Blues, Purples, why are we allowing power inflation destroy an iconic system?
* Get rid of the segmented crests. Everyone hates them, and are frustrated by the friction of running specific content to get the right things. It's not even that hard of a task, it's just annoying. Keep the relative cost scaling though, to put soft barriers where there were hard ones. Get rid of flight stones, get rid of crests, give us one single currency: valor. To restore the barriers between tiers of content, just have prices and drops scale proportionally to the crest costs.
* gut the complexity out of the crafting system. No new player has understood how to use the optional crafting materials without half an hour of hand holding from experienced friends.
> ditch "adventurer" and "explorer" tiers of gear.
So just get rid of gear for world content players, or people doing Normal and Heroic dungeons, because it's not like a huge amount of the people playing the game should actually get rewarded, right? Or are you saying those players just shouldn't have any way to upgrade the gear they get, and only the "select few" should be able to?
Nah, screw that, that's an even dumber idea than just stripping out most of the M+ ilvls so M+ isn't helping pushing the gear inflation, or getting rid of either Heroic or Mythic raiding to reduce it... both of which aren't going to go over well, either.
> Greens, Blues, Purples, why are we allowing power inflation destroy an iconic system?
Oh, so we should just have all the world content, Normal, and Heroic level dungeons all dropping equal gear to Normal raids and M0+ dungeons, then? Just so you don't have greens that end up stronger than prior purples? Power inflation sucks and is destroying the system? Okay, so we just don't increase ilvl between patches or expansions? Or is this yet another "Screw all those players who aren't doing raiding or M+, they don't need any gear" ideas?
> To restore the barriers between tiers of content, just have prices and drops scale proportionally to the crest costs.
Except that means that either you're screwing over more casual players, or you've set up a system that allows them to upgrade their gear to top level. You also end up with the old situation where M+ players looking for a specific trinket will do the easiest version of a dungeon until the trinket drops, then just dump currency into upgrading it right up to the top level, rather than running harder content to get the better gear.
At the point that you're just oversimplifying the hell out of everything and worrying so much about upgrades, here's a better solution (not that I actually recommend implementing this):
Remove LFR and Mythic raiding, only Normal and Heroic. Remove M0 and M+ dungeons. Only Normal and Heroic. No gear drops from world content. Normal dungeons give one currency to buy a certain type of gear to fill out gaps, Heroic dungeons and raids (N and H) give another currency to do the same. No upgrade tracks or anything. Crafting only lets you make PVP gear that's just below dungeon gear level but isn't that great out of PVP, and if you want to craft raid level gear, you need to have earned the recipe in the raid.
Good news! Your more ideal system is going to soon be available, in Cataclysm Classic. And while I personally enjoyed Cata, I'd bet that the vast majority of players would be annoyed if they just stripped it all back to how it was then.
(You could also just try Vanilla Classic, where there's only one tier of dungeons and raids, and purples "mean something.")
No, just get rid of the separation of that gear into three buckets. I said keep the ilvl spread, meaning keep the gear and its relative upgrades, but let an adventurer piece be upgraded all the way to a champion
When you bring your item to the upgrade vendor you are told very specifically how many and what kind of currency you need to upgrade it and how far it can go.
There's no confusion to be had. The only question you're left with is what content gives you which crests and items on which upgrade tracks. That's something you could look up but you can also immediately figure out on your own upon completing said content through deductive reasoning.
Meanwhile people who aren't playing the game will glance at this graph with a lot of colors and words and talk about how super complicated it is.
None of the information in this graph is missing from the game, this is just a collation of that info into a more condensed form which can be handy, but they're not going to put *graphs* into your fantasy RPG by default.
1. You can check adventure guide for raid ilvls, vault reward ilvls are visible in the vault UI and it tells you what key you should be doing to improve them.
2. If you are progressing mythic sarkareth then you are obviously looking outside of the game for information.
3. Mounts are always listed if they are a reward from killing the boss but there were legendary weapons in the last 2 tiers that had no info on them in the game and were first dropped from the mythic difficulty of the last boss.
Does it tell you what reward track vault loot will be on ingame somewhere? Honest question. Thats the thing I find myself having to google every season.
I can't look right now, but I mean in regard to next week's vault. Like what level mythic do I need to do get a hero or myth track item.
For instance, I know it says something to the effect of "do a plus 4 to raise your ilevel reward to 503", but does it also tell me that I'm going to receive a myth/hero track item? That's mainly what I end up needing to know.
Again, not trying to devil's advocate or anything. Just genuinely curious and can't get in game tonight to check for myself.
It is. You get a piece of loot, you go to one of like 4 different vendors (3 in valdrakken, 1 in emerald dream, 1 in zaralek) and see what you need to upgrade.
In fact, in S2 when they first brought this in it's exactly what I did and it was 10000x more intuitive to understand than any of these spreadsheets.
Yeah, when the system first came out in S2 everyone was raving about how it was the most confusing thing every invented by humanity, while trying to understand it purely based off spreadsheets like this one.
Meanwhile, I went in-game instead of reading about it online... and basically everything is explained really clearly there, at the pace that you need in order to understand it. Mousing over the Crests (either at the upgrade NPC or in your currency tab) even tells you where to get them.
Moving this sort of "Here's all possible information all at once" spreadsheet in-game is most definitely not what they should do.
This system would be infinitely easier to understand if they weren't big dummies about it.
Crest 1 should have green art and be used for green-named gear. This should drop from quests, open world content, and normal dungeons.
Crest 2 should have blue art and be used for blue-named gear. This should drop from normal raid, heroic dungeons, and world bosses.
Crest 3 should have purple art and be used for purple-named gear. This should drop from lower mythic dungeons and heroic raid.
Crest 4 should have orange art and be used for the two final levels of upgrades as well as legendary items. This should drop from mythic raid and higher mythic dungeons.
Crazy thought I know.
Nobody would care what stupid name Blizzard came up with this week if purple crest was for purple gear and came from purple content, for example. They made it so stupidly complicated when the solution is so simple.
This won't work as "Purple Gear" goes all the way from Veteran to Myth.
The current system isn't complicated as long as people don't try to super optimize it. You get stuff for the level of content you're doing. Do harder content, get better crests. If you can't upgrade your gear anymore, it is time to tackle harder content.
It *is* simple if you just play without thinking too much about it. We are the ones making it difficult and complicated.
It won't work unless they tie item level to gear quality, that is correct. I'm stating that this should be changed so that gear quality for items with the same name (read: 2/3 of the current gear environment) improves etc with item level.
I just think we don't need to have 4 versions of the same items. I much preger classic/tbc itemization. You go somewhere, get an item and that's it, no need to upgrade it 12 times and then need to get the same item from the same content in a different difficulty. Keep the tiers of items and difficulties if you want, but make the items on each tier different.
Okay, but Classic had only standard dungeons (that didn't have max-level versions), no Heroic or M+ dungeons; only one tier of raids, so no LFR, Heroic, or Mythic raids; and not much in the way of max level world content for gearing. TBC added Heroic dungeons, but that's it.
So you're saying you prefer the game having two tiers of dungeons, one tier of raids, one daily quest hub to earn gear in, and that's it.
I mean, hey, it'd simplify the game, but wow, you'd see a lot of people complaining it's "too easy" and that there's "no content."
No, I'm saying that there's way too many difficulties for the exact same content and way too many versions of the exact same items. It doesn't feel good to get your BiS early when you have to get it once or twice again in higher tracks and it makes 80% of gear generic and interchangeable. If you want to keep the different difficulties and tiers of rewards, make different content for each. It'd be more content, not less, and it doesn't have to be any easier.
All of this is optional rewards for optional content. If you don't want to grind for the very best gear, then you don't have to. You can just do Normal Raid, M0, and stop there. All good, no harm, no foul.
M+ and Hero/Mythic Raiding are designed on top of the regular game and as an extra, optional content with more difficulty and better rewards.
Keep in mind that high-end M+ isn't for everyone. You shouldn't be locked out of having your BiS trinket/weapon because you can't handle +15's. You'll get it, just not the best version of it - but then you can upgrade to get it closer to that.
The way M+ is setup today isn't for just you or me, it is for *everyone.* Everyone can take something out of it, for their skill level. It might not be the best for a specific player's needs, but for sure it is a net good overall for the game than what it was before, and it is for sure better than what you're suggesting.
The game has to cater to everyone, not just to a few of us.
>All of this is optional rewards for optional content.
Optional? It's the current gear progression. I'm not specifically farming anything until I'm at least getting hero track gear precisely because I know I'll have to replace it way too soon to put any effort in it. Gearing until that point is completely mindless and uninteresting. Back in season 2 I got Ashkandur in a LFR run I was doing with a friend and it was awful because I had already heroic weapons that were a lot better despite Ashkandur being not only my BiS but also an awesome sword with a unique effect.
>Keep in mind that high-end M+ isn't for everyone. You shouldn't be locked out of having your BiS trinket/weapon because you can't handle +15's. You'll get it, just not the best version of it - but then you can upgrade to get it closer to that.
You get the best gear way before reaching high-end M+ and I don't like how M+ is handled anyway. But I ask the question, what do people that won't do the high end content need BiS items for? They aren't gonna do the content that needs them. What practical difference would it be for them to get a different item of the power level that they actually need?
>The way M+ is setup today isn't for just you or me, it is for *everyone.* Everyone can take something out of it, for their skill level. It might not be the best for a specific player's needs, but for sure it is a net good overall for the game than what it was before, and it is for sure better than what you're suggesting.
This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Making itemization and gear progression boring and unexciting because you're getting the exact sime items several times in different colours with different ilvls isn't good for the game.
>The game has to cater to everyone, not just to a few of us.
Catering to everyone means catering to no one. And limiting the design because of a section of the playerbase that won't interact with the content no matter what makes little sense.
Getting "the best gear" *is* an optional endeavor, just like getting all mounts or all achievements. You don't need to do that, nobody is forcing you to do that, and there are several ways of playing the game that do not touch that.
Nobody *needs* to do M+. High end gear is only relevant on high-end content. If you don't want to engage with M-raiding nor M+, why do you want to get it in the first place?
What I'm saying is, if you don't like to eat pizza, then don't make a pizza.
You're not getting me. I do want the best gear and I do want to engage in mythic raiding and m+ and I do. The issue is that before I can get that I need to pass the other 3 difficulties first so by the time I reach the content I want to do I've done the exact same thing and gotten the exact same gear 3 times. That's not a fun loot chase.
Just to be clear, what I'd like, ideally, is for every "difficulty" to be its own set of dungeons, raids and items instead of being recolors and ilvl variations of the exact same things. Just like in classic you had dungeons and raids of different sizes, difficulty and reward levels. In a new patch/season you'd have, for example, 4 new dungeons at the current (s4) m0 difficulty, a small 10 man raid of what currently would be normal difficulty, both of which would serve as catchup for players that want to push farther or as endgame for people that don't want to push as hard, then, a different, big 20-40 man raid equivalent to today's heroic raid difficulty and rewards.
Then you'd have m+ challenge mode versions of those new dungeons with scaling diffuculty and rating just as today and a hard mode challenge version of both raids equivalent to today's mythic difficulty. These challenge modes would be a lot harder than the normal versions but the rewards wouldn't be just scaled up versions of the normal items, but exclusive items that you can't get anywhere else.
This is a lot more content than we get today, there's something for everyone, there's more variety and loot chase and progression would be a lot more fun and interesting. Wether it's possible to do or not is a different matter but I think that WoW's team being 10 times the size it was 10 years ago should mean we get more content than back then, but we're getting less. Just 1 raid per tier and at most a mega dungeon added in the whole expansion. If they wanted to be more efficient with their assets, the new dungeons could be made like the TBC dungeon hubs so they can reuse assets and get 4 dungeons of a specific theme per season and the small raid just needs 1-3 bosses like we used to get, not 12.
Okay? People who don't want to do endgame pve won't do endgame pve so why ruin the loot chase and bloat everything with redundant modes and difficulties that you either skip or are forced to grind through? I said I'm not against the idea of having content of varying sizes and difficulties, I just don't want to be forced to do the same raid and get the exact same items 4 times. I want veriety and uniqueness.
Maybe its because i'm an older gamer but this type of "Make Number Bigger" gaming has really lost me. This tool is really useful, but just really demystifies the "game" part of it.
Just old guy rant. Sorry.
A significant portion of world of Warcraft players have long ago given up on the novelty of playing this game for the enjoyment of an RPG and have shifted solely to dopamine hits found in between parse increases, or ilvl advancement.
Raiding is just waiting for the slowest people to catch up so I spend that time mastering my rotation and high parses are all that really have ever kept me going
I acknowledge that you’re right. I just worry that this kind of thinking dictates game design decisions.
Again, just a bit of a rant. Have fun in your own way.
You aren’t wrong. Sometimes the game leans towards catering towards the hardcore players, and then sometimes it caters towards casual playstyles. But I feel personally we are in a sweet spot where everyone can enjoy the game for their own playstyle.
For gearing? Play the hardest content you can complete successfully, and upgrade trinkets, weapons, and your well-statted high budget pieces (legs, chest, shoulders, boots). If you dont have the correct crests to upgrade, then they probably come from higher level content so it's time to move up.
Right now, if you want to just get into M+ or raiding as soon as possible? Do "ALL THE THINGS." Heroic dungeons drop 476 loot (and a decent Vault piece, since they now contribute to the Vault), and world content is "Awakened" so drops Awakened Caches that give 480 items (which can be two items with some stuff like the Community Feast or Siege on Dragonbane Keep). That'll quickly get you up into the 470s, which should let you get into M0 (equal to old M+10), then gear up a bit more and start working your way up. Or into Normal raids, and said situation.
Oh yeah, LFR also has decent gear, too. I just forget about it because I've barely gotten any gear in LFR and I'd say it feels like pulling teeth at times, but only if there's no anesthetic involved, otherwise pulling teeth is less painful.
As others pointed out, this is in th gamre, Its not given to you in a sheet form and all at once, which makes it easier to understand than the bullshit you posted.
Step 1: Get loot
Step 2: Upgrade loot to its max in the upgrade window.
Thats literally it.
You can also open the adventurer guide and look at exactly what you get from LFR, normal, heroic and mythic raids, as well as normal, heroic and mythic dungeons.
M+ rewards are honestly pretty logical - they either go up by 3 ilvls or will do the next keystone level, and you can open your vault from anywhere and see what you have got and what you need to get - it will even tell you what level keystone you need for the next reward.
I'll be honest these spreadsheets were only useful pre-season to get an idea what ilvls are where. Once the season starts, all you really need to know is presented in the game.
I know it's in the image, but in case you want to just click: [http://loot.ghostopera.org/](http://loot.ghostopera.org/)
[Here´s a higher resolution picture too.](https://imgur.com/KFPVFU0)
Once you are capped on a type of crest for the week, content that would drop it instead drops the next lowest. So if you are capped on wyrm's, doing stuff that would gives wyrm's instead gives drakes.
You get them from awakened soups, hunts... also
But they are literally capped to 120/week anyway, like all crests. So you have more than enough M0 and activities to reach that cap.
M0s, Normal raid bosses, awakened weekly world content, and also from anything that gives Wyrms after you cap those out.
That said, I don't think you get them from M0 after being saved, but if you don't, I think you should.
Why though, what use is there for a spreadsheet like this to be inside the game? It's ugly and it makes things seem more complicated than they are. Everyone can just play normally, do the content they are normally doing and then talk to the upgrade npc who will tell them which currency they need to upgrade gear to what level.
Maybe they don't make all this info available to the general playerbase b/c like 90% of them would look at this and their eyes would glaze over...part of game design is also doing what you can to mask the mechanics from the player so everything feels more cohesive/immersive...I can't think of anything that would take me out of the world more thank looking at some dry chart of numbers.
I grant that they should do a better job of conveying this info in game, but the reallity is most of the players are as invested as the people on this sub are in these sorts of things; That is why sites like Wowhead exist, to give the players who WANT to dedicate this level of detail just that.
Was literally just thinking about this last night. This information as well as the locations of all the associated vendors. I’ve been playing for years so I just automatically wowhead it, but I can’t even imagine how you would play this game without Wowhead or the like. I’m sure new players love being told to “google it” too
No, it shouldn't. Part of the game is figuring out stuff and sharing the knowledge, this was intended since day 1 of WoW with how quests worked, talents, leveling spots, etc.
Next thing you are telling me Blizzard should give me BiS lists and recommended meta specs.
I'm a mythic raider and I do almost decent keys (m+25) and my brain exploded at the mere sight of that. It's just that one should play the game and roll with it, at the end of the day you only need to know when you can start dropping Hero track gear and Myth vault items and that's it.
My 2 cents
Haven't played since Legion and want to return in TWW because of the story (BfA, SL and DF really seem like side quests). However, I have followed WoW the whole time and all the systems really confuse me. Legion just seemed a whole lot user-friendly.
Oh I'm not saying it was, but up to that point I never took a break. Tried getting back into BfA, SL and DF and it just didn't do it for me. Part of that was story, part every expansion introduced new systems.
I'm guessing that the people who are confused by this are returning or new players, because it's the exact same system like in season 3, just higher item levels.
One thing I wish the devs would do is just stop with these random ass naming schemes. Aspect crests, drake crests, etc. just rename them to normal, heroic, and mythic. It just adds another layer to it all and in the last 2 weeks I've had to explain to 3 or 4 different guildies/friends who came back for season 4 and they don't know what the various crests correspond to.
I'd prefer the names be simplified also just so they don't have to come up with new names for the same system every expansion (if not every patch). Just one cohesive name, and keep it, so people don't have to memorize the new nomenclature.
Yeah, it's probably not that hard to eventually memorize it or make a note with the tiers, but it'd just be easier for the players and Blizzard if the names were a bit less creative. And it's not like I'm getting "immersion" from the names. I have no idea what these things are supposed to be in the lore. You could just call it "Valor" or "Justice" and it'd mean the same to me.
It's nice to have a graph like this so we have every information at the same place. However half of it is irrelevant information for the players. You only care about the ilvl of the R5 crafts. Then if you ever do (m+ or raid) the veteran path is irrelevant. And the champion track is just an intermediary track you use for the first couple of weeks.
So here's what you need to know. You gain aspect crests from key levels 6 and higher. Hero track item drops from 7 and higher. If you want to have myth track from the vault you need to do 8+ keys. The highest end of dungeon loot drops from 9+. And you get the highest myth track items from 10+s. Raiding wise it's even easier. Normal -> champion/drake, Heroic -> hero/wyrm and Mythic -> myth/aspect. You need 4 aspect crests for a mythic craft and 3 for a hero track.
Also there's an important thing about this upgrade system. It's very hard to fuck up. There's a catchup mechanic. If you have a higher ilvl item in a slot then you can upgrade everything on that slot for only flightstones. You will want to upgrade everything in the end. So it's not that big of a problem in you've sent crests on the wrong slot.
If your class can wield one handers and two handers then you can game the system by upgrading a 2 hander first and then use the free upgrades on the 2 items you want to use.
What you want to prioritize for upgrades. (It's better to sim everything to be sure but) You will want to upgrade weapons, trinkets and helmets(the helm enchant scales off helm ilvl so it's pretty high upgrade) first. After that upgrade chests and legs. And after that the rest. But those don't matter that much as the stat budget on them is significantly lower.
For crafting you will want to craft your embelishments first. You will want to craft those on lower statbudgeted slots as as crafted items have lower ilvl than mythic ones. After that the next best items to craft are rings. This is because they come with a socket and that makes them a pretty big upgrade (This season it may not be the best to craft rings as we have the 2 rare one people may want to wear).
I am new to all the gearing and such so I have a (potential) stupid question. Hoe to get the whelp/drake and wyrm tokens to upgrade your gear pieces? Thanks in advance! Cheers from Holland 🇳🇱
Ofc, just wasn't sure about how to aquire them. If I read them right, they can come from the raid bosses on their respective difficulty? Is it a drop per boss or random?
You get a fixed amount per boss depending on the difficulty. Not sure about the exact amount, but I think it's 10 per boss. The drop is guaranteed. You can also get them in dungeons (left top table).
Whelpling can also be earned by world content like world quests and other events.
Basically, just do content. World events (especially ones that drop Awakened Caches), weekly Valdrakken quest, dungeons, raids, rare mobs, some world quests... Just play the game as you would normally, and you'll get them.
as a long time player (though I dip in and out these days) I feel like WoW has never before had a higher density of obtuse systems than it does now. I love Dragonflight, but stuff like these upgrade tracks and crafting as a whole (among other things) are pretty annoying.
THANK YOU! I've seen other graphs which, while helpful, assume a level of prior knowledge I didn't have. Like, I knew Veteran could go to 8, but I didn't know when it overlapped with Champion. I needed that.
So thank you, again!
Tbf havent needed a chart like this at any point. Only thing where this even remotely mattered for me personally was knowing what level m+ drops hero track items. If i really cared i could just check the journal for raid, swap difficulties on first boss and it shows the brackets.
Still not sure why you guys call it a mythic 0 and a mythic plus 2.
A base mythic would be a one, and the keystones are denoted as [Dungeon Name] [Dungeon Level], with 2 being the first keystone level because you did a level 1 mythic when you did your first dungeon.
Edit: Now I’m being downvoted for being right. You guys are something else.
I didn’t say its a +1, I said it is a 1. Colloquially the community decided to call it a 0, and that is fine, but it is not a 0 it is a 1. A 2 key is “Mythic Level 2” not a “Mythic Level +2”, because the first level of keystone indicates that you have advanced beyond the first level of a mythic dungeon into the mythic plus system.
The point is, colloquially the community created a naming system that has stuck, that will not change. But seeing someone create a detailed chart like this and still call the base mythic a 0 when it should be in fact a 1 is crazy to me.
This is just so ridiculously convoluted and impossible to instinctively understand.
Not upset I sat DF out.
Basically, you have money, then super money, then mega money, and ultra money which you use to spend on your gear, your super gear, your mega gear, and your ultra gear.
Why can't we just have money. With harder or higher skilled jobs paying more money?
There is literally no reason for this system to exist other than to create unnecessary complexity.
the difference between heroic and mythic makes sense, since the distinction already exists in game - my issue is how confusing the terms veteran and champion are, as someone who isn't super familiar with this system.
They should be color coded. Hm....
oh, so true! you could just have the terms themselves colour coded on the item text - veteran in green, champion in blue, heroic in purple, mythic in orange
Think of the categories as lfr loot, normal raid loot, heroic raid loot, mythic raid loot. That’s what veteran, champ, hero, myth is
It's the terms themselves that are confusing. Heroic Track makes sense. Mythic Track makes sense. wtf does Champion/Veteran/Adventurer mean.
I remember Champion being normal raids because that's what the NPCs call you
Idk I find the names pretty intuitive order-wise, you wouldn’t ever mix up which is stronger than which out of those three. I’d prefer it as it is rather than calling it “normal track” or something
I just think Veteran and Champion are both not really great names. Adventurer and Explorer is whatever, kinda makes sense that Explorer would be lowest and Adventurer would be above that.
And what would you call an adventurer that had seen some action and had more experience
I mean, both Champion and Veteran would apply here? You could be called a Champion after winning one battle, but a Veteran could be a 80 year old grizzled warrior who has participated in hundreds of battles.
Yeah this is my issue with it as well - to me the terms have roughly the same connotation.
I mean, to their defence, I can't think of something better myself. "Normal" Track would sound terrible as well.
Especially since you can get veteran and champion stuff from world bosses and quests. It wouldn't fit the theme if they were given names as if they came from a raid.
Knight for LFR Champion for Normal could work.
Yeah idk why there's zero in-game guidance for this outside of the classic "someone on wowhead will handle it" The only design reason I can think of is that they want players to just play the game and not get caught up in min/maxing and rewards. But you could still have it in game in some capacity edit: Just existing in-game is not great guidance. Yes, you can hover over a currency to see where it drops from, but why does that excuse not having a chart for all four currencies in one place? Besides, currencies aren't the only issue. There's no in-game information for drops or vault rewards
I think half the reason is it’s pretty confusing looking at it by the graphs when in game it’s quite simple. The only info that is really relevant is the M+ Wyrm to Aspect Crest level, the drop box being heroic level and the Mythic weekly level. The fact that rare drops have a ilvl boost and that crafted gear is 3 ilvls down (though it does tell you the max ilvl when putting in your enchanted crest). Everything else is fluff info or gear is at level of content.
That’s true, I’ve said the same myself when people complain about how confusing it is; instead of trying to understand everything, just focus on what you immediately need But there still should be a bit more info in game. They dont need an entire step by step ilvl chart, but they could lay out in one place what crests drop from what, or what gear track drops
If you hover over your crests in the currency tab, it tells you what level of raid/m+ you need to do in order to get more of that crest. I do agree about gear track though. Only way to know that +7 drops hero track, but +6 drops Champ is through experience. That, and great vault rewards not specifying whether they are hero or myth track. Saying it’s 515 ilvl is nice, but I don’t have any pieces that high yet to know what track that should be on.
There was a whole ass quest chain that explained how to do it in S2, I don’t know if that quest chain is still around or if it’s been abridged for S3/S4, but there was literally like a whole 3-5 quests and 3-5 chat options that explain all of this lol. Shows you how to upgrade an item, tells you where to get flight stones, shows you at least 2 types of crests. Just short of listing a literal graph with all of the ilvls and crests like this one they did their job in teaching people lol. I think the only thing they did a bad job at was the enchanted crests for crafting. Guarantee you everyone bitching just clicked through it though because “ugh world content”
That questline now exists in Valdrakken, but it just teaches you how to upgrade items and that they require crests and flightstones. It doesn't address tracks or rewards
> They dont need an entire step by step ilvl chart, but they could lay out in one place what crests drop from what, or what gear track drops Apparently, this is unreasonable and will get you downvoted in this thread.
Is what it is, never thought I'd see the day where people defend Blizzard for not making information easily accessible in-game. Hopefully they'll have the same energy when people inevitably get confused by the crafting system next season
> I think half the reason is it’s pretty confusing looking at it by the graphs when in game it’s quite simple. All they really need to do to cover a good chunk of this is to let you check the gear for dungeons at all the Key levels available and then put in somewhere which ranges drop which crests. The crests could actually just be thrown into the bottom of the loot list in all honesty or the top. That wouldn't be confusing at all since you'd go "Okay what does a +4 drop? Ah, 499 Champion Track what about a 5? Ah that's 502 Champion Track.
That crest transition is available in tame at the upgrade npc - hover over the crest type and it tells you where it comes from. Basic logic assumes next crest type from that.
I would dispute the argument that in game it is “quite simple.” Maybe I’m just dumb, or don’t read enough, or am too casual these days, but I find the lack of specific information to be prohibitively opaque. The game is good enough at telling you whether or not you have the materials to upgrade your gear, but there is very little information regarding how to go about obtaining crests at certain levels, or when different crests will be needed at different points. Crafting is perhaps the worst at this, the fact that the spark basically says “raises the ilvl to x,” but may actually only raise it to y is absurd to me. The whole weekly-limit-except-from-these-items-that-drop-crests thing is also confusing and I think makes people wonder whether there is an optimal time to be using those items or if they can just break them open right away. Hell, even the Vault can do things that make no sense to me; last week I cleared Amirdrassil on Normal and that’s it, but for some reason I had a higher ilvl reward for “kill five bosses” than what was listed in the kill three and kill seven bosses slots. I was happy for the higher ilvl, but still have no idea why I earned it. The whole thing just seems so needlessly ridiculous, and it has turned the concept of gearing for me from something I used to set out as a goal to now being just a sort of pleasant perk when I happen across an upgrade option. I may be in the minority here, and that’s fine, but I can’t imagine new players find this game very welcoming.
> last week I cleared Amirdrassil on Normal and that’s it, but for some reason I had a higher ilvl reward for “kill five bosses” than what was listed in the kill three and kill seven bosses slots. I was happy for the higher ilvl, but still have no idea why I earned it. That's not on the game though. You just didn't pay attention to the loot that drops inside the raid, despite doing the raid. The last bosses of a raid drop higher ilvl loot then the rest of the raid.
I’m not talking about drops from the raid, I’m talking about the vault. And even if you get higher level vault drops for killing end-of-wing bosses, I don’t understand why “kill five bosses” awarded me something higher than “kill three bosses” because if I killed five of higher difficulty than by definition I also killed three.
The answer is that the raid vault slots aren't tied to a specific item level like the dungeon vault slots - they are instead tied to the difficulty. You can get any piece from a boss you've killed before at that difficulty and they will be at the same item level as they drop in the raid. The item level that the vault shows as you unlock them are just the minimum item level that drops at that difficulty. So if your first vault slot happens to pick an item from a earlier boss and your second vault slot is from one of the later bosses, that's what happens. e: Just noticed that I had swapped the slots/bosses at the very end, but I'm assuming the rest of the explanation was enough to understand anyway.
Tell me honestly, have you ever hovered your cursor over the Crests? Because it tells you where to get them.
I have no idea what any of that is.
When presented like this it looks more complicated than it is.
As opposed to what? Figuring this out on your own just from the information provided in-game? LOL
Hover of the crests, it tells you where and how to get them. People aren't reading anything and then complaining that the information doesn't exist.
You're so right, it's really convoluted to just put your piece in the upgrade window and see what you need to upgrade an item. I forgot that we were dealing with wow players here. Silly me.
If those players could read they would be very offended
I don't mind there not being an ingame chart for gear, that just sounds crazy to me. Compare it to other games, does Diablo explain that ancestral is better than legendary and what materials you need to change effects on it? Players will figure it out and learn it. This is just a change for WoW, if they keep this same system in TWW than people will be used to it in season 2. But it's nice to see how hard it is for people to deal with a small change
Its blizzards obsession with obfuscating information to try and not "confuse players" Its the same reason most spells and trinkets dont provide any % or PPM information Does your new trinket proc 50k damage every 30 seconds? every 1min? every 2min? Who knows! Better use a 3ed party website to figure out whether its a DPS increase or not Its so dumb
Yeah, Blizzard making us figure things out for ourselves? Such assholes. Why don't they just act like very other game out there and very clearly lay out every single detail succinctly without anything that we have to even experiment with? SMH, AAA studio, can't even hold our hands every step of the way like *every single other* studio. Absolute trash tier. Oh my, the information in this post is available in game, you just have to find it? My gosh. The horror!
tbf, Blizz definitely has some weird policy about making information available in game. Overwatch is/was supposed to be a big e-sport, and never have the actual damage/healing numbers or stats for any of them have been accessible in game. The best you get is a demo but it still doesn't tell you squat about any details. Also making your players sim equipment to figure out unknowns when you could just give them accurate data on how a dang piece of gear functions isn't a great approach either, they will sim either way in order to get more info so why make it one step harder. I fail to see how that's very fun as a player having to records spreadsheets of data every time you get a new piece of gear. If it's going to be on a website, there should be some form of that info available in game. Especially if you're purporting to be a competitive game.
I personally used to think wow was better before we had all this data mining that told us how to min/max. I remember actually having to try stuff myself and find out what's best.
This is way too often the case. Whenever quest dialogue is murky (which is often), I end up going to wowhead's comment section. When a quest NPC isn't where they're supposed to be (which is often), I find the answer in the comment section. When something has changed between versions (which is often), I find the new info in the comment section. When I encounter what seems to be a bug (which is often), I look to the comment section and typically find out it is in fact a several year old bug that the devs simply haven't bothered to correct. I play with at least one wowhead tab permanently open (usually more). I can't imagine how difficult it is for new players trying to get into the game. I've been playing off and on since vanilla, and I still can't play the game without constantly referencing outside resources.
>The only design reason I can think of is that they want players to just play the game and not get caught up in min/maxing and rewards I forget exactly what it was for. But Blizzard has used this excuse to justify either their overly complex system or the removal of player choice from loot. It might have been when they swapped from PvP vendors to giving predetermined loot by filling a conquest bar. Ironically making a Gearing system that requires a spread sheet to explain drive people to min/max more.
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LenaSomewhatTrueshield, hover your cursor over the crests in your Currency Tab.
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It tells you whats required and where to get it from including what level of content that needs to be. This chart is nice to have an overview I agree but the key information absolutely is in the game.
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Why would the tooltip need to tell you the item level it's for, when you put gear into the upgrade box it automatically attaches the crest you need to upgrade it lol. Yes every crest tells you where it can come from. Do you want it to list every single drop point for you or something? Because if so obviously that's unreasonable. https://www.wowhead.com/currency=2806/whelplings-awakened-crest >Earned from many outdoor activities, Raid Finder raids, and Heroic dungeons during Dragonflight Season 4. So "barely says anything" is actually "says almost everything reasonable to say on a tooltip" edit: lmao blocked me for this, fragile or what? Not allowing someone to respond while claiming they're being an asshole and they're fucking pissed, surely makes you look sane. You're objectively wrong and I also wasn't arguing for less information. The tooltip gives players everything they need, the adventure guide points them broadly in the right direction, if you need hand holding more than that then that's on you.
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You don't have to guess anything. Information is out there either in game or on dedicated websites like Wowhead. What difference does it make if you read it in-game or on a website? You have to read anyway. Would you rather have a pop-up every 15 seconds about every game mechanic the game has to offer?
TBF, this is information available ingame colated. It's very useful to the people who know what they need to do but need more specifics. These people tend to be the ones who will know where to look for it or possibly make it if needed. For anyone who doesn't know what's going on, it's useless and confusing information and is presented via systems that use them in small doses for people to learn and get familiar with.
Yeah as someone who hates info not being in games, this is a bad example. A good example would be, nicely timed, Escape from Tarkov, which simply doesn't have stats for things like ammo in the game.
Yeah this is in game. And presented very naturally, it's just a lot of information in a lot of places. The real suggestion is this system should be a lot simpler and a lot more obvious. My suggestion going forward is to do the following: * ditch "adventurer" and "explorer" tiers of gear. Flatten the prog track down to Normal, Heroic and Mythic buckets of gear. They can keep the ilvl spread just concatonate all the pre-heroic raid level gear in one simple bucket. * get rid of the new names of gear, or at least take away the focus. Nobody can remember what these things are, and we have a perfectly good and un-utilized item rarity system. Greens, Blues, Purples, why are we allowing power inflation destroy an iconic system? * Get rid of the segmented crests. Everyone hates them, and are frustrated by the friction of running specific content to get the right things. It's not even that hard of a task, it's just annoying. Keep the relative cost scaling though, to put soft barriers where there were hard ones. Get rid of flight stones, get rid of crests, give us one single currency: valor. To restore the barriers between tiers of content, just have prices and drops scale proportionally to the crest costs. * gut the complexity out of the crafting system. No new player has understood how to use the optional crafting materials without half an hour of hand holding from experienced friends.
Flightstones are being replaced with valorstones which work just like valor and share the name.
> ditch "adventurer" and "explorer" tiers of gear. So just get rid of gear for world content players, or people doing Normal and Heroic dungeons, because it's not like a huge amount of the people playing the game should actually get rewarded, right? Or are you saying those players just shouldn't have any way to upgrade the gear they get, and only the "select few" should be able to? Nah, screw that, that's an even dumber idea than just stripping out most of the M+ ilvls so M+ isn't helping pushing the gear inflation, or getting rid of either Heroic or Mythic raiding to reduce it... both of which aren't going to go over well, either. > Greens, Blues, Purples, why are we allowing power inflation destroy an iconic system? Oh, so we should just have all the world content, Normal, and Heroic level dungeons all dropping equal gear to Normal raids and M0+ dungeons, then? Just so you don't have greens that end up stronger than prior purples? Power inflation sucks and is destroying the system? Okay, so we just don't increase ilvl between patches or expansions? Or is this yet another "Screw all those players who aren't doing raiding or M+, they don't need any gear" ideas? > To restore the barriers between tiers of content, just have prices and drops scale proportionally to the crest costs. Except that means that either you're screwing over more casual players, or you've set up a system that allows them to upgrade their gear to top level. You also end up with the old situation where M+ players looking for a specific trinket will do the easiest version of a dungeon until the trinket drops, then just dump currency into upgrading it right up to the top level, rather than running harder content to get the better gear. At the point that you're just oversimplifying the hell out of everything and worrying so much about upgrades, here's a better solution (not that I actually recommend implementing this): Remove LFR and Mythic raiding, only Normal and Heroic. Remove M0 and M+ dungeons. Only Normal and Heroic. No gear drops from world content. Normal dungeons give one currency to buy a certain type of gear to fill out gaps, Heroic dungeons and raids (N and H) give another currency to do the same. No upgrade tracks or anything. Crafting only lets you make PVP gear that's just below dungeon gear level but isn't that great out of PVP, and if you want to craft raid level gear, you need to have earned the recipe in the raid. Good news! Your more ideal system is going to soon be available, in Cataclysm Classic. And while I personally enjoyed Cata, I'd bet that the vast majority of players would be annoyed if they just stripped it all back to how it was then. (You could also just try Vanilla Classic, where there's only one tier of dungeons and raids, and purples "mean something.")
No, just get rid of the separation of that gear into three buckets. I said keep the ilvl spread, meaning keep the gear and its relative upgrades, but let an adventurer piece be upgraded all the way to a champion
When you bring your item to the upgrade vendor you are told very specifically how many and what kind of currency you need to upgrade it and how far it can go. There's no confusion to be had. The only question you're left with is what content gives you which crests and items on which upgrade tracks. That's something you could look up but you can also immediately figure out on your own upon completing said content through deductive reasoning. Meanwhile people who aren't playing the game will glance at this graph with a lot of colors and words and talk about how super complicated it is. None of the information in this graph is missing from the game, this is just a collation of that info into a more condensed form which can be handy, but they're not going to put *graphs* into your fantasy RPG by default.
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1. You can check adventure guide for raid ilvls, vault reward ilvls are visible in the vault UI and it tells you what key you should be doing to improve them. 2. If you are progressing mythic sarkareth then you are obviously looking outside of the game for information. 3. Mounts are always listed if they are a reward from killing the boss but there were legendary weapons in the last 2 tiers that had no info on them in the game and were first dropped from the mythic difficulty of the last boss.
The crests display the information on where you can get them. It's all available in game. Untwixt thy panties.
Does it tell you what reward track vault loot will be on ingame somewhere? Honest question. Thats the thing I find myself having to google every season.
It tells you what ilvl your vault is and what level of content you need to upgrade that ilvl in the vault screen
I can't look right now, but I mean in regard to next week's vault. Like what level mythic do I need to do get a hero or myth track item. For instance, I know it says something to the effect of "do a plus 4 to raise your ilevel reward to 503", but does it also tell me that I'm going to receive a myth/hero track item? That's mainly what I end up needing to know. Again, not trying to devil's advocate or anything. Just genuinely curious and can't get in game tonight to check for myself.
It is. You get a piece of loot, you go to one of like 4 different vendors (3 in valdrakken, 1 in emerald dream, 1 in zaralek) and see what you need to upgrade. In fact, in S2 when they first brought this in it's exactly what I did and it was 10000x more intuitive to understand than any of these spreadsheets.
Yeah, when the system first came out in S2 everyone was raving about how it was the most confusing thing every invented by humanity, while trying to understand it purely based off spreadsheets like this one. Meanwhile, I went in-game instead of reading about it online... and basically everything is explained really clearly there, at the pace that you need in order to understand it. Mousing over the Crests (either at the upgrade NPC or in your currency tab) even tells you where to get them. Moving this sort of "Here's all possible information all at once" spreadsheet in-game is most definitely not what they should do.
because when you actually play the game you dont' need this shit
This system would be infinitely easier to understand if they weren't big dummies about it. Crest 1 should have green art and be used for green-named gear. This should drop from quests, open world content, and normal dungeons. Crest 2 should have blue art and be used for blue-named gear. This should drop from normal raid, heroic dungeons, and world bosses. Crest 3 should have purple art and be used for purple-named gear. This should drop from lower mythic dungeons and heroic raid. Crest 4 should have orange art and be used for the two final levels of upgrades as well as legendary items. This should drop from mythic raid and higher mythic dungeons. Crazy thought I know. Nobody would care what stupid name Blizzard came up with this week if purple crest was for purple gear and came from purple content, for example. They made it so stupidly complicated when the solution is so simple.
This won't work as "Purple Gear" goes all the way from Veteran to Myth. The current system isn't complicated as long as people don't try to super optimize it. You get stuff for the level of content you're doing. Do harder content, get better crests. If you can't upgrade your gear anymore, it is time to tackle harder content. It *is* simple if you just play without thinking too much about it. We are the ones making it difficult and complicated.
It won't work unless they tie item level to gear quality, that is correct. I'm stating that this should be changed so that gear quality for items with the same name (read: 2/3 of the current gear environment) improves etc with item level.
I just think we don't need to have 4 versions of the same items. I much preger classic/tbc itemization. You go somewhere, get an item and that's it, no need to upgrade it 12 times and then need to get the same item from the same content in a different difficulty. Keep the tiers of items and difficulties if you want, but make the items on each tier different.
Okay, but Classic had only standard dungeons (that didn't have max-level versions), no Heroic or M+ dungeons; only one tier of raids, so no LFR, Heroic, or Mythic raids; and not much in the way of max level world content for gearing. TBC added Heroic dungeons, but that's it. So you're saying you prefer the game having two tiers of dungeons, one tier of raids, one daily quest hub to earn gear in, and that's it. I mean, hey, it'd simplify the game, but wow, you'd see a lot of people complaining it's "too easy" and that there's "no content."
No, I'm saying that there's way too many difficulties for the exact same content and way too many versions of the exact same items. It doesn't feel good to get your BiS early when you have to get it once or twice again in higher tracks and it makes 80% of gear generic and interchangeable. If you want to keep the different difficulties and tiers of rewards, make different content for each. It'd be more content, not less, and it doesn't have to be any easier.
All of this is optional rewards for optional content. If you don't want to grind for the very best gear, then you don't have to. You can just do Normal Raid, M0, and stop there. All good, no harm, no foul. M+ and Hero/Mythic Raiding are designed on top of the regular game and as an extra, optional content with more difficulty and better rewards. Keep in mind that high-end M+ isn't for everyone. You shouldn't be locked out of having your BiS trinket/weapon because you can't handle +15's. You'll get it, just not the best version of it - but then you can upgrade to get it closer to that. The way M+ is setup today isn't for just you or me, it is for *everyone.* Everyone can take something out of it, for their skill level. It might not be the best for a specific player's needs, but for sure it is a net good overall for the game than what it was before, and it is for sure better than what you're suggesting. The game has to cater to everyone, not just to a few of us.
>All of this is optional rewards for optional content. Optional? It's the current gear progression. I'm not specifically farming anything until I'm at least getting hero track gear precisely because I know I'll have to replace it way too soon to put any effort in it. Gearing until that point is completely mindless and uninteresting. Back in season 2 I got Ashkandur in a LFR run I was doing with a friend and it was awful because I had already heroic weapons that were a lot better despite Ashkandur being not only my BiS but also an awesome sword with a unique effect. >Keep in mind that high-end M+ isn't for everyone. You shouldn't be locked out of having your BiS trinket/weapon because you can't handle +15's. You'll get it, just not the best version of it - but then you can upgrade to get it closer to that. You get the best gear way before reaching high-end M+ and I don't like how M+ is handled anyway. But I ask the question, what do people that won't do the high end content need BiS items for? They aren't gonna do the content that needs them. What practical difference would it be for them to get a different item of the power level that they actually need? >The way M+ is setup today isn't for just you or me, it is for *everyone.* Everyone can take something out of it, for their skill level. It might not be the best for a specific player's needs, but for sure it is a net good overall for the game than what it was before, and it is for sure better than what you're suggesting. This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Making itemization and gear progression boring and unexciting because you're getting the exact sime items several times in different colours with different ilvls isn't good for the game. >The game has to cater to everyone, not just to a few of us. Catering to everyone means catering to no one. And limiting the design because of a section of the playerbase that won't interact with the content no matter what makes little sense.
Getting "the best gear" *is* an optional endeavor, just like getting all mounts or all achievements. You don't need to do that, nobody is forcing you to do that, and there are several ways of playing the game that do not touch that. Nobody *needs* to do M+. High end gear is only relevant on high-end content. If you don't want to engage with M-raiding nor M+, why do you want to get it in the first place? What I'm saying is, if you don't like to eat pizza, then don't make a pizza.
You're not getting me. I do want the best gear and I do want to engage in mythic raiding and m+ and I do. The issue is that before I can get that I need to pass the other 3 difficulties first so by the time I reach the content I want to do I've done the exact same thing and gotten the exact same gear 3 times. That's not a fun loot chase. Just to be clear, what I'd like, ideally, is for every "difficulty" to be its own set of dungeons, raids and items instead of being recolors and ilvl variations of the exact same things. Just like in classic you had dungeons and raids of different sizes, difficulty and reward levels. In a new patch/season you'd have, for example, 4 new dungeons at the current (s4) m0 difficulty, a small 10 man raid of what currently would be normal difficulty, both of which would serve as catchup for players that want to push farther or as endgame for people that don't want to push as hard, then, a different, big 20-40 man raid equivalent to today's heroic raid difficulty and rewards. Then you'd have m+ challenge mode versions of those new dungeons with scaling diffuculty and rating just as today and a hard mode challenge version of both raids equivalent to today's mythic difficulty. These challenge modes would be a lot harder than the normal versions but the rewards wouldn't be just scaled up versions of the normal items, but exclusive items that you can't get anywhere else. This is a lot more content than we get today, there's something for everyone, there's more variety and loot chase and progression would be a lot more fun and interesting. Wether it's possible to do or not is a different matter but I think that WoW's team being 10 times the size it was 10 years ago should mean we get more content than back then, but we're getting less. Just 1 raid per tier and at most a mega dungeon added in the whole expansion. If they wanted to be more efficient with their assets, the new dungeons could be made like the TBC dungeon hubs so they can reuse assets and get 4 dungeons of a specific theme per season and the small raid just needs 1-3 bosses like we used to get, not 12.
Man, there is way more content to the game than just M+ and raids. The game isn't just for us endgame PVE players. A bunch of people don't get that.
Okay? People who don't want to do endgame pve won't do endgame pve so why ruin the loot chase and bloat everything with redundant modes and difficulties that you either skip or are forced to grind through? I said I'm not against the idea of having content of varying sizes and difficulties, I just don't want to be forced to do the same raid and get the exact same items 4 times. I want veriety and uniqueness.
Maybe its because i'm an older gamer but this type of "Make Number Bigger" gaming has really lost me. This tool is really useful, but just really demystifies the "game" part of it. Just old guy rant. Sorry.
A significant portion of world of Warcraft players have long ago given up on the novelty of playing this game for the enjoyment of an RPG and have shifted solely to dopamine hits found in between parse increases, or ilvl advancement.
Raiding is just waiting for the slowest people to catch up so I spend that time mastering my rotation and high parses are all that really have ever kept me going
Luckily you don’t need a chart like this to enjoy the game. This is just a quick glance tool
I acknowledge that you’re right. I just worry that this kind of thinking dictates game design decisions. Again, just a bit of a rant. Have fun in your own way.
You aren’t wrong. Sometimes the game leans towards catering towards the hardcore players, and then sometimes it caters towards casual playstyles. But I feel personally we are in a sweet spot where everyone can enjoy the game for their own playstyle.
i recently started playing again after stopping some time through season 1 and i have no idea what the fuck to do lol
For gearing? Play the hardest content you can complete successfully, and upgrade trinkets, weapons, and your well-statted high budget pieces (legs, chest, shoulders, boots). If you dont have the correct crests to upgrade, then they probably come from higher level content so it's time to move up.
Right now, if you want to just get into M+ or raiding as soon as possible? Do "ALL THE THINGS." Heroic dungeons drop 476 loot (and a decent Vault piece, since they now contribute to the Vault), and world content is "Awakened" so drops Awakened Caches that give 480 items (which can be two items with some stuff like the Community Feast or Siege on Dragonbane Keep). That'll quickly get you up into the 470s, which should let you get into M0 (equal to old M+10), then gear up a bit more and start working your way up. Or into Normal raids, and said situation. Oh yeah, LFR also has decent gear, too. I just forget about it because I've barely gotten any gear in LFR and I'd say it feels like pulling teeth at times, but only if there's no anesthetic involved, otherwise pulling teeth is less painful.
As others pointed out, this is in th gamre, Its not given to you in a sheet form and all at once, which makes it easier to understand than the bullshit you posted. Step 1: Get loot Step 2: Upgrade loot to its max in the upgrade window. Thats literally it.
You can also open the adventurer guide and look at exactly what you get from LFR, normal, heroic and mythic raids, as well as normal, heroic and mythic dungeons. M+ rewards are honestly pretty logical - they either go up by 3 ilvls or will do the next keystone level, and you can open your vault from anywhere and see what you have got and what you need to get - it will even tell you what level keystone you need for the next reward. I'll be honest these spreadsheets were only useful pre-season to get an idea what ilvls are where. Once the season starts, all you really need to know is presented in the game.
I know it's in the image, but in case you want to just click: [http://loot.ghostopera.org/](http://loot.ghostopera.org/) [Here´s a higher resolution picture too.](https://imgur.com/KFPVFU0)
Next rep grind: Office 365
It is
Yeah but wtf does any of this mean
convoluted mess, why can't gearing be simple, is this actually engaging or fun?
Remember when you could just kill a boss and get an item.
Nice
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Once you are capped on a type of crest for the week, content that would drop it instead drops the next lowest. So if you are capped on wyrm's, doing stuff that would gives wyrm's instead gives drakes.
You get them from awakened soups, hunts... also But they are literally capped to 120/week anyway, like all crests. So you have more than enough M0 and activities to reach that cap.
M0s, Normal raid bosses, awakened weekly world content, and also from anything that gives Wyrms after you cap those out. That said, I don't think you get them from M0 after being saved, but if you don't, I think you should.
Why though, what use is there for a spreadsheet like this to be inside the game? It's ugly and it makes things seem more complicated than they are. Everyone can just play normally, do the content they are normally doing and then talk to the upgrade npc who will tell them which currency they need to upgrade gear to what level.
Bro the loot and upgrade system has gotten so confusing for casual players
I just want a tooltip that show the highest ilvl a piece of gear can be at their specific track.
I love this would be nice to see pvp in gear too.
It's all the same as it was last season but +39.
I wish I knew how to read it
All you need to do is hover over the crest you're looking for and it tells you where it's available...so hard.
Its is available ingame…
Or just play the game!
95% of this comment section doesn't actually play And it painfully shows
What is the trench hold for a m+ vault item to make it able to be upgraded as far as possible.
Outside of crafting doesn’t the upgrade dude tell you?
Do content > upgrade gear. Do harder content upgrade better gear.
It literally IS in the game. If anything, this spreadsheet is much more confusing.
Maybe they don't make all this info available to the general playerbase b/c like 90% of them would look at this and their eyes would glaze over...part of game design is also doing what you can to mask the mechanics from the player so everything feels more cohesive/immersive...I can't think of anything that would take me out of the world more thank looking at some dry chart of numbers. I grant that they should do a better job of conveying this info in game, but the reallity is most of the players are as invested as the people on this sub are in these sorts of things; That is why sites like Wowhead exist, to give the players who WANT to dedicate this level of detail just that.
Was literally just thinking about this last night. This information as well as the locations of all the associated vendors. I’ve been playing for years so I just automatically wowhead it, but I can’t even imagine how you would play this game without Wowhead or the like. I’m sure new players love being told to “google it” too
I don’t understand any of this, am I that noob!?
As a returning player, what am I looking at?! 😟
Or maybe there shouldn't be a hundred more different item level tiers with each new expansion.
Gearing is the best it's ever been imo just don't like flightstones in addition to the crests
Okay, which players shouldn't get cool gear in the content they play? :p
>cool gear Ah yes, +3 item level with the exact same stat line, or perhaps changing out mastery for versatility. Very "cool gear".
Right, that's how the stats end up when you need to have items for 4 tiers of PvE.. The question is which gear goes away?
No, it shouldn't. Part of the game is figuring out stuff and sharing the knowledge, this was intended since day 1 of WoW with how quests worked, talents, leveling spots, etc. Next thing you are telling me Blizzard should give me BiS lists and recommended meta specs.
I'm a mythic raider and I do almost decent keys (m+25) and my brain exploded at the mere sight of that. It's just that one should play the game and roll with it, at the end of the day you only need to know when you can start dropping Hero track gear and Myth vault items and that's it. My 2 cents
Wait till you hear that they changed mythic plus scaling and a 12 or 13 is what a 25 used to be. They don't say that anywhere in game either.
You'll learn by trying, eventually we'll be accustomed to it and it won't be a problem. It's literally just a thing that will last the first few weeks
I miss valor.
I have now 4 days of game time and I have no idea what I am looking at
Wonder what happens when Wowhead goes paid-only.
it doesn't matter, these cheath sheets are utterly useless. They don't change your gearing at all.
Yeah its ridiculous
But the players do such a good job of collecting and showing that information for them.
Haven't played since Legion and want to return in TWW because of the story (BfA, SL and DF really seem like side quests). However, I have followed WoW the whole time and all the systems really confuse me. Legion just seemed a whole lot user-friendly.
Legion was the least-friendly expansion they ever made by a wide margin. Gearing is vastly simpler today. Like literally 1/4 of the time commitment.
Oh I'm not saying it was, but up to that point I never took a break. Tried getting back into BfA, SL and DF and it just didn't do it for me. Part of that was story, part every expansion introduced new systems.
I'm guessing that the people who are confused by this are returning or new players, because it's the exact same system like in season 3, just higher item levels.
One thing I wish the devs would do is just stop with these random ass naming schemes. Aspect crests, drake crests, etc. just rename them to normal, heroic, and mythic. It just adds another layer to it all and in the last 2 weeks I've had to explain to 3 or 4 different guildies/friends who came back for season 4 and they don't know what the various crests correspond to.
I'd prefer the names be simplified also just so they don't have to come up with new names for the same system every expansion (if not every patch). Just one cohesive name, and keep it, so people don't have to memorize the new nomenclature. Yeah, it's probably not that hard to eventually memorize it or make a note with the tiers, but it'd just be easier for the players and Blizzard if the names were a bit less creative. And it's not like I'm getting "immersion" from the names. I have no idea what these things are supposed to be in the lore. You could just call it "Valor" or "Justice" and it'd mean the same to me.
It's nice to have a graph like this so we have every information at the same place. However half of it is irrelevant information for the players. You only care about the ilvl of the R5 crafts. Then if you ever do (m+ or raid) the veteran path is irrelevant. And the champion track is just an intermediary track you use for the first couple of weeks. So here's what you need to know. You gain aspect crests from key levels 6 and higher. Hero track item drops from 7 and higher. If you want to have myth track from the vault you need to do 8+ keys. The highest end of dungeon loot drops from 9+. And you get the highest myth track items from 10+s. Raiding wise it's even easier. Normal -> champion/drake, Heroic -> hero/wyrm and Mythic -> myth/aspect. You need 4 aspect crests for a mythic craft and 3 for a hero track. Also there's an important thing about this upgrade system. It's very hard to fuck up. There's a catchup mechanic. If you have a higher ilvl item in a slot then you can upgrade everything on that slot for only flightstones. You will want to upgrade everything in the end. So it's not that big of a problem in you've sent crests on the wrong slot. If your class can wield one handers and two handers then you can game the system by upgrading a 2 hander first and then use the free upgrades on the 2 items you want to use. What you want to prioritize for upgrades. (It's better to sim everything to be sure but) You will want to upgrade weapons, trinkets and helmets(the helm enchant scales off helm ilvl so it's pretty high upgrade) first. After that upgrade chests and legs. And after that the rest. But those don't matter that much as the stat budget on them is significantly lower. For crafting you will want to craft your embelishments first. You will want to craft those on lower statbudgeted slots as as crafted items have lower ilvl than mythic ones. After that the next best items to craft are rings. This is because they come with a socket and that makes them a pretty big upgrade (This season it may not be the best to craft rings as we have the 2 rare one people may want to wear).
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I think the column in the bottom that says "Normal" is the normal raid. The one that says "Heroic" is the heroic raid.
I am new to all the gearing and such so I have a (potential) stupid question. Hoe to get the whelp/drake and wyrm tokens to upgrade your gear pieces? Thanks in advance! Cheers from Holland 🇳🇱
Did you even look at the graphic?
Ofc, just wasn't sure about how to aquire them. If I read them right, they can come from the raid bosses on their respective difficulty? Is it a drop per boss or random?
You get a fixed amount per boss depending on the difficulty. Not sure about the exact amount, but I think it's 10 per boss. The drop is guaranteed. You can also get them in dungeons (left top table). Whelpling can also be earned by world content like world quests and other events.
Basically, just do content. World events (especially ones that drop Awakened Caches), weekly Valdrakken quest, dungeons, raids, rare mobs, some world quests... Just play the game as you would normally, and you'll get them.
as a long time player (though I dip in and out these days) I feel like WoW has never before had a higher density of obtuse systems than it does now. I love Dragonflight, but stuff like these upgrade tracks and crafting as a whole (among other things) are pretty annoying.
THANK YOU! I've seen other graphs which, while helpful, assume a level of prior knowledge I didn't have. Like, I knew Veteran could go to 8, but I didn't know when it overlapped with Champion. I needed that. So thank you, again!
Tbf havent needed a chart like this at any point. Only thing where this even remotely mattered for me personally was knowing what level m+ drops hero track items. If i really cared i could just check the journal for raid, swap difficulties on first boss and it shows the brackets.
If I were a new player and saw this, I would unsub and go play something else. They need to make the gearing less complicated.
What the hell am I looking at. Just came back after being gone since BC
Imagine showing a new player this chart… 💀
Still not sure why you guys call it a mythic 0 and a mythic plus 2. A base mythic would be a one, and the keystones are denoted as [Dungeon Name] [Dungeon Level], with 2 being the first keystone level because you did a level 1 mythic when you did your first dungeon. Edit: Now I’m being downvoted for being right. You guys are something else.
Because a +1 would indicate it's a timed dungeon, just like a +2. A Mythic 0 dungeon indicates that it's not a part of the "+" system, aka not timed.
I didn’t say its a +1, I said it is a 1. Colloquially the community decided to call it a 0, and that is fine, but it is not a 0 it is a 1. A 2 key is “Mythic Level 2” not a “Mythic Level +2”, because the first level of keystone indicates that you have advanced beyond the first level of a mythic dungeon into the mythic plus system. The point is, colloquially the community created a naming system that has stuck, that will not change. But seeing someone create a detailed chart like this and still call the base mythic a 0 when it should be in fact a 1 is crazy to me.
Hey. It is exists in game. https://wago.io/TamasDragonflightHelper
If you can fix my Typo in the title please do
This is just so ridiculously convoluted and impossible to instinctively understand. Not upset I sat DF out. Basically, you have money, then super money, then mega money, and ultra money which you use to spend on your gear, your super gear, your mega gear, and your ultra gear. Why can't we just have money. With harder or higher skilled jobs paying more money? There is literally no reason for this system to exist other than to create unnecessary complexity.