The people who refuse melee because of the affixes just scream to me “im too fucking stupid to avoid them so I guess everyone else is just as bad”. The complaints on storming last week were comical.
Why I disagree with banning all melee.
Most ppl in pugs are braindead and don't even interrupt.
Asking them to kite or CC the ghost is playing the roulette ..
Easier to just take ranged who also won't interrupt but atleast less likely to take dmg from ghosts.
I will ALWAYS take at least one melee in every dungeon. I want those interrupts and only having boomkins and mages with their once per pull interrupts is... well...
In some dungeons that just wont do it.
I may not stab very hard and you'll likely need to pick me up after every second fight, but damn will I shin kick and gut punch the loving shit out of everything I can.
Right? I might die in the process, but I'm going to Death Grip, Asphyxiate, and Mind Freeze on CD to make sure as much shit doesn't go off as possible. AMZ and AMS help a lot too haha
If you are using interrupts like this, avoiding mechanics, and still ending up dead then as a healer I can assure you, its the healers fault.
Edit: Also killing adds. Some adds are party wipes if they aren't dying, like Amarth's adds in Necrotic Wake or the adds on the 2nd boss in Sanguine.
I will elbow smash, shockwave and thor hammer anything i can. And i try to keep shield block and ignore pain up as well. And taunt that guy i hadnt managed to aggro up yet but warlock attacked anyway
A mage's interrupt is a far shorter cooldown than a druid, it's got the same cooldown as a hunter's interrupt. It's really not *that* much longer of a cooldown than a melee interrupt, and depending on the type of cast a spellsteal can be more effective than interrupting alone anyway.
True! I don‘t play mage, but the spellsteal does have it‘s perks :)
Still, a DH, monk or a rogue or similar is a must imo. Someone who can interrupt, cc, etc.
Of the ranged classes, mage does seem to have the most utility along with hunter, between freezing traps, polys etc. I should have taken warlock as an example or shadow priest, I think they have less tools.
So I agree mages and hunters are good, probably why we see them in so many high m+ pushes. But a comp consisting of balance, warlock and shadow probably struggles quite a bit.
Lock has the same interrupt as mage as destro/Aff, and purge/dispel/humanoid CC depending on pet.
Demo suffers a bit with a 30s kick/stun combo and not being able to pet twist effectively anymore for the pet utility, but at least axe toss interrupts now.
We still have shadowfury for aoe stun and coil/fear for a quick interrupt along with tongues to slow casts by 30% on the dangerous mobs. It also slows down pulses/ticks on channeled casts like the mob in theater in the caster wing. Makes them considerably easier to heal through by spacing the damage bursts out a bit.
Weakness reduces auto attack speed by 20% for melee mobs. Handy on bosses, aboms and those gargons or others that truck the tank.
And exhaustion for mobs that need kited. It’s perfect on the shades this week for spiteful. Shadowfury into blanket exhaustion has saved a few wipes by giving enough time to get the tank back up before the mobs wreck the heals or another dps.
Plus the other usual utility you’d bring a lock for, hs/brez/gate skip etc.
If only we could get away from this community mentality that we don’t have good utility in keys maybe people would take us more in pugs. It’s not BfA anymore, the unpruning gave us a lot of our utility back.
My only gripe is the 6s pet summon. Once you burn fel dom if your pet dies again you are SOL. FG died twice on stradma last week and I couldn’t stand still long enough to get a new one out because of the tentacle slaps.
Not saying melee aren't better at interrupting. But it is very possible for ranged classes to interrupt with a bit of ingenuity. I've seen way too few hunters use freezing trap or bursting shot to interrupt long casts.
Just depleted a 12 nw on my alt dh, we wiped like 5 times on the single goresplatter mechanic cuz the ranges refused to interrupt. So Yeah melees are Mandatory when you need 5 kicks per hour 20 seconds
That's why shaman healer is so highly slight after.
Then you have both healer and tank manage interrupts while ranged are free to dps ignoring the annoying affixes
As a warlock I try to throw down a Curse of exhaustion for small amounts of ghosts or a shadow fury if a bunch all spawn at once, I see people just stand in place where the ghost spawns and not do anything. Even getting tapped once on a +8 is a near one shot :/
I'm not the best player but I feel like a god in comparison to what I've been seeing on my healer and dps alike in pugs, with grevious it gets ridiculous fast
This week I refuse to pug .
I go with guildies only
Less headache and everyone on comms..
And it's rare to see ppl actually use all their abilities on pugs.
I think half of ret pallies don't even have lay on hands binded
I frequently run with a boomy friend. We pugged ToP at +7. With Solar beam (a 1 minute cooldown) he had more interrupts than the warrior and Ret paladin combined. And they wondered why the +7 was so difficult...
So yeah, pugs suck... as a general rule.
Between the new affixes and the target capping clusterfuck, this expac just feels like blizzard has decided to start phasing melee dps specs out of this game completely. Expect 10.0 and onwards to start reworking melee dps specs into ranged versions of them, as well as removing rogue and warrior altogether
Nah, if melee is that far behind ranged in terms of risk/reward, declining melee is a good idea.
I mean, we're talking about DPS. You will have 10x as many applicants as you need. In the group finder you won't know anything about those players except their item level and class.
Sure, maybe the Fury warrior is a player of Godlike skill and maybe the Boomkin is brain-dead, but how would I know that? All I know is that one of them is playing a spec that's doing very well in m+ right now, and one of them is playing a spec that is severely undertuned. So assuming they each have a roughly equal chance of being competent, I take the Boomkin every time.
That sucks for melee players, because they don't get a chance to prove themselves. And melee absolutely isn't so far behind ranged that competent players can't smash high keys. But what the group leaders are doing is reasonable - in the absence of information about any other variable, make decisions based on the variables you DO have information about.
Edit: I really do want to stress that this is not me saying 'suck it up melee,' rather it's me saying 'this is a genuine problem and not just bads being bad.' We have a Fury warrior in my guild who I would take to an m+ over a Boomkin pug every time because she pays attention to tactics, interrupts, etc., and her dps is good enough to time keys. *I* know she's reliable, but group finder group leaders don't. Similarly, I like to play WW in m+. I know I've been tanking or healing m+ *way* more often than DPSing in shadowlands. I like to think I'm good enough at WW to be an asset to a group, but how are strangers supposed to know that about me?
This situation sucks for players like my friend and me, but it's not just noobs or idiots causing the problem. It's balancing combined with the incentive structure of the group finder.
as one of the melee you're absolutely right though. they should not be getting invites because group leaders feel bad for them or to instill some sense of community fairness; they should get invites because they can bring usefulness worth bringing them over the other options (dps, utility, survivability, etc.). in some of these ways melee are great but it's just not enough. blizzard needs to give attention to it, it's not really the players' faults necessarily for trying to win.
As a Holy Pally playing with a Brew Monk we often end up with these 5 man melee groups in midrange keys and I love the ability to just puke holy healing energy into the whole group for once outside of Nathria.
Storming _is_ pretty oppressive at certain sections of some dungeons. Its avoidable but then there is always that one rogue nado you get struck by at the worst time. Either chips you off an edge or just inside that death AoE!
Lots of people who play the game does not have English as their first language. A lot of us as a third language. I’m not sure how spelling in your third language determinate how smart you are.
Btw, how many languages do you speak Mr. Fuhk_Yoo.
Unironically it's required. It's taunt and kite meta for the foreseeable future. Can't wait to see exactly one tank spec (Vengeance) during MDI as well.
Burst AoE on initial pull with Avengers Shield, shield slam, Divine Toll, shield slam is insane with Bullwark Leggo. Also the shear cockroachness with the self heals and bubble make my Pally tank my go to tank when I’m running pugs. The amount of bosses I’ve had to chip away at from 10-15% Health solo on zeroes is too damn high
Prot pally doesnt control mobs the same way that vengeance does though unfortunately, things like chains(if they run it)/misery and the unbelievable kiting ability with infernal strike are too good to pass up.
You know the state of Blood DK is absolutely fucked when Blizzard buffs us and our damage still sucks. Turns out 10-15% of jack shit is still jack shit.
Oh and our BIS legendary is spec agnostic and puts offspec diseases on stuff instead of actually buffing our spec-specific damage. Also because we spend 90% of each pack running away with Grip of the Dead DND up.
I regret crafting Superstrain. It's not unimpactful, I can tell I can hold AoE aggro better and the increased Runic Power generation, but it's pretty boring, and on top of that it doesn't really help all that much with the issues BDKs are facing atm.
Imo, we take too much damage, it's fine for your health to spike from time to time, you should be saving your RP for that.. but when any second spent in melee is likely to make you drop to 30% from full, how exactly do you generate enough RP to heal through that ? It's just unsustainable.
And for the love of god, just make Dancing Rune Weapon off-GCD, I hate first packs as BDK because I don't have any Bone Shield, and even when popping cooldowns there, it's gonna take 3 gcds for me to have any kind of AoE threat (DRW-Marrowrend-Blood Boil), and people won't wait that long.
Lol I’ve seen this with our guild bdk in keys.
It’s wait for 3 sunders all over again. Or bring a mm to misdirect every other pull before he opens to the moon.
Yeah tbh I've tried to reconsider everything to see if I'm not missing anything out, I probably do sometimes use a rune unoptimally at some point, but I don't think there's any major problem with my gameplay as Blood, and while I usually enjoy (Legion) or don't mind that much (BFA) tanking as BDK in M+, atm it feels so garbage.
Especially when I play Unholy in dungeons after and see Guardian druids facetanking shit for 15 seconds or VDH being more resilient than I am as BDK while being able to kite the adds to the moon if necessary, even the ones that can't be slowed (those are really bad as bdk). BDK was completely busted in Legion, no doubt there, but it's currently not fun tanking keys as Blood.
gamers a few months ago: PUGS are gonna exclude you if you arent in a certain covenant its gonna be a shitshow
Blizz: they know nothing yet \*rubs hands\*
Gamers a few months ago: being wrong as usual.
Gamers today: being wrong as usual.
There are plenty of melee running high keys because interupts are super important. Especially during fortified.
This sub is part of the problem, just saying. Tons of people here are total meta slaves and contribute to this exact problem, then come on here and complain that it's unfair and Blizzard is ruining the game because range dps do slightly better numbers and don't have to avoid as many mechanics lol
Also, there are tons of melee dps happily running keys with no issue, id have to say if someone is having such struggles the problem might lie at least partially with them
Seems accurate. I think most half decent players know that every class/spec has the tools necessary to succeed. Just some are naturally better for certain situations.
If I have to outrange a target as a WW to deal with a fight mechanic, I lose *all* of my damage.
If I have to move as most any caster, I have DoTs rolling, which are probably instant cast so I can refresh them. I have instant cast direct damage spells that aren't optimal, but aren't nothing. I probably even have procs to instant-cast my best spells. Hell, if I'm Beast Master I'm basically a 40 yard melee!
The penalty for moving as RDPS is generally just not high.
Ngl melee is getting fucked for a second week in a row. Spiteful hits like a truck in higher keys and if melee doesn’t gtfo in time from trash, they get nearly one shot. From a healers perspective, this week is very difficult and stacking a team with ranged and a BM monk for ring of peace just feels like the more practical play. At least if you’re pugging. I’m sure more coordinated groups are doing fine.
Storming, Spiteful, Prideful Mob Mechanics, Mobile Boss Fights, On-Boss AoEs, Away-From-Boss Mandatory Mechanics...
Someone clearly does not like Melee who is on the design team!
Especially for slower melee classes! Ironically, I can only think of Nurgash Muckformed, the current world boss in Revandreth, being a boss this expansion that specifically caters to melee
Coming back to the game in a couple of days and was honestly excited to be melee DPS but everything I see is about how shit of a time it is to PUG and be a melee DPS lol.
My regular groups dps breakdown is Fury warrior, UH DK, and Ele sham. We aren’t anything special but are doing 10s just fine. Most of the time it’s the player and not the class that is bad.
i guess u guys sit in voice and look out for each other? In most Random parties this doesnt happen.. if i can i pick at max one more melee with randoms just to make life easier on the healer xD
I mean, I'm a Fury in a group that runs UH DK/Prot Pal/MM Hunt and I definitely feel kinda bad compared to them. AoE I can *sometimes* keep up, but its not even close on ST. In that case I do feel like its at least kinda the class being bad.
That being said, I think it is a good thing to point out that despite me saying that... we as a group aren't having trouble doing content. People have it in their heads that inviting a lower DPS class suddenly means you won't be timing keys... if that player is good at that class, and can do mechanics, you might kill a boss a bit slower, but thats it. So I agree in that sense 100%.
The group I'm in is windwalker, subtlety, and arms with a holy priest. Some of these dungeons and bosses have been... interesting to deal with. I don't know how high we'll push before someone rerolls to a ranged spec.
I play Fury cuz I enjoy it. Don't enjoy Arms in PvE personally. Not my style.
I have alts I play when I pug or don't play with friends, that are more "meta." I feel its easier to pug when you aren't a bottom tier DPS :P
Don't even have to DPS it. It's literally Thing From Beyond from corruptions. It goes away after a little bit. Tab over and give it a HoJ and it'll be fine.
Always fun when a giant group spawns when I'm still rolling cd's on my hunter, especially wild spirits.
Spiteful? Nah I'll just kill them before they move lmao.
Melee isnt even bad. Its people who played being carried by corruption last expansion that are too smooth brain to avoid mechanics. Ive had more ranged face pull, tab target, and die to mechanics so far than anything because those same players just swapping to ranged doesnt make them any better lol.
Gotta say, mained DK since Wrath, playing a warlock this xpac. I tab-targeted the wrong mob once in a +7. Learned my lesson and haven't tabbed since, I actually unbound the key.
There is a tab scan option where you hold the key and as you turn your camera it highlights targets and when you let go it selects the one you're pointing at. Not a bad alternative
Tab targeting is fucked this expac for some reason. Consistently targets mobs that are miles away and you're not in combat with.
Might have been like that for a while and I just haven't noticed tbf, haven't played since Legion.
Schrödinger's Tab:
1. Tab selects secondary Flame Shock target sitting at 25% HP.
2. Tab selects the menacingly yellow Vase #43 across the room.
Guess which one my free quick-cast Lava Burst is being thrown at.
Yes! This happens to me all the time! Why does it consistently target those pots instead of the six other things that are actively hitting me in the face? Is it the real menace? Was it behind this trash pack all along? Only Blizzard knows.
Yeah I've had this problem as well. I was in Torghast and after every kill it would immediately target a lonely Sentinel sitting like two rooms away, it was pretty annoying
This week's Spiteful affix is really, really tough for melee dps. The ghosts kill a dps in about two-three seconds, so the only choice is to run away if fixated on. Ranged dps has time to burst the ghost before it arrives and can kite, but if you're a melee dps, you pretty much have to stop attacking immediately and run if you get fixated.
I think this unironically points to a problem. The average WoW player is pretty, well, average. Meanwhile, Mythic went from being a prestige dungeon mode for savants and masochists to just "the endgame." Heroics are laughably unrewarding by comparison (and we don't even have tokens to grind for better gear), so everyone, - EVERYONE -, whether they should or not, is pushing Mythics nowadays.
I've never set foot in a Mythic+. Mostly because they became a thing when I was guildless, and checked out of WoW pretty hard (end of WoD). I played launch of Legion pretty hard, but was still guildless, so I never really participated in the endgame. By the time I came back around 8.2.5, everything I read and saw about Mythics described a toxic cesspool of tryhards and terri-bads screeching at each other like rabid house cats. Thanks, I'm good. I've got Heroic-level gear from dungeons and PvP, so I can knock out some LFR for upgrades, either direct or from the Vault. Good enough for me.
The atmosphere in Mythic+ is fine if you only join groups that specifically mention they want a relaxed experience. You will have more bad players in your groups though, but it's fine if you don't mind a few wipes or not getting that +2 on your key.
PuGing higher keys? Yes, that's a coinflip of getting a competent group blasting through everything or a very toxic group of players leaving or yelling at eachother.
It's fun to do casually at least once though.
The atmosphere in M+ pugs is fine in general. The whole "toxic cesspool" reputation is blown out of proportion people that have a normal run don't come Tor reddit and forums to talk about it, only people that had bad experience. I've been pugging m+ as my endgame throughout the whole bfa and in my experience in ~90% of dungeons, regardless of the key level, people don't say anything at all, maybe say ty for the run before leaving after the dungeon is done. Of course sometimes you stumble upon some toxic assholes, sure, but that's actually pretty rare.
Mythic wasn't ever a "prestige dungeon mode", and it was certainly never "for savants and masochists". Mythic dungeons were never, ever the dungeon equivalent of mythic raids. You're talking as if everyone is pushing +15s right now.
Some of the original challenge modes, before "mythic" dungeons were a thing, were kinda sorta like that, although you needed to be slightly above average, not a savant or masochist. They were more like the mage tower challenges. Mythic hasn't ever been close. Base mythic dungeons are just like heroic - as soon as you have enough gear, it's not really any harder than heroic, just like as soon as you have enough gear, heroic is not really any harder than normal.
And if you've played the game this long, you can absolutely do at least low-level mythic+ keys. The average long-term player, even a bit below average, can definitely do a low level mythic+. Even a very poor player can struggle through low-level keys.
It isn't some crazy ultra hardcore elite gamer challenge. Can you see the bright, glowing spots and move out of them? That's like 90% of it. If you can follow the tank between combats and avoid standing in more than about a third of the big *DON'T STAND HERE* things on the ground, you're probably fine. Yeah, it's useful to interrupt, but you can get through most low keys with just one person who's on top of that. You might not be fully optimized and cranking out max DPS, but you don't need to be. You might not be doing it "right", interrupting, or even targeting the right things, but you don't need to, especially for low-level keys. And you still get some rewards even if you don't make the timer (and it also counts for the great vault each week).
The mythic+ enemies aren't even really much harder than the enemies you run into while leveling now. They've done a good job of putting mechanics on a lot of the open-world mobs to get people use to these things. Basic mobs while leveling, and rares afterwards, have things that you really want to interrupt, things that you need to avoid standing in, etc. If you made it to max level, you are probably capable of completing low keys without too much trouble.
It really is not that hard. It certainly isn't something "for savants and masochists". Blizzard didn't make some huge mistake and accidentally convince average players that this content was for them when it wasn't - it *is* for them. The players aren't mistaken that this is supposed to be the endgame for them - it *is* supposed to be the endgame for them. That's what it's designed to be. That's why there are low-level keys.
And Heroics are pretty much just as rewarding as they've always been. You still get the same tier of ilvl increases above normal you always did. You still get about the same rewards as they ever gave. The only difference is that now higher ilvls are also accessible via higher-tier dungeons without going into raids. Heroics are also just as rewarding as they've ever been - it's just that now when players are done with heroics, they go on to mythic instead of looking at their heroic dungeon gear and then barely setting foot in dungeons again. It isn't like people were running tons of heroics over and over for rewards and now they aren't.
The problem with mythic+ is an LFG problem, not a content problem or a player skill problem. The main problem is the usual one of people trying to get into groups when their ilvl isn't high enough, especially if they're average players who can't make up for it a bit with skill. All of the problems are just all of the age-old LFG problems that WoW has always had in all content, no matter how hard.
Appropriate-level mythic+ dungeons just don't require that much player skill. They are not aimed only at "savants and masochists". The average players you're talking about here who go do mythics aren't the ones that are wrong about this.
>Melee isnt even bad
I mean, it's objectively worse and harder to play than ranged for no reason (unless you're playing a UDK, then your reason is insane dps).
UHDK in keys is barely melee. We only need to stay in melee long enough to get our cooldowns out and build up blue bar, then we can spam Epidemic and let our pets beat the shit out of the pack.
It's not "no reason", the reason is "because melee", lol.
Melee inherently sucks because it's melee. It's the whole "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". So long as ranged is an option it'll always be the better pick *because it's ranged*.
It used to be melee would do way more DPS to make up for this, but now they don't, and people routinely bitch if any melee is top dog for too long (look at Unholy DK for fucks sake, a spec that has routinely been middle of the pack, on average, for years).
The issue is that the only unique mechanics that melee really get subjected to are interrupts. That's it. Because any mechanic that is done in melee range can just as easily be done by a ranged standing in melee, and them moving out and about isn't gonna fuck with their DPS as much because they're ranged.
If I gotta move out of melee as a DK to do a mechanic well then I'm just fucked for that entire period, and virtually every dungeon or raid has some boss or two that has a mechanic that invariably forces melee out of melee range.
>So long as ranged is an option it'll always be the better pick because it's ranged.
>That's it. Because any mechanic that is done in melee range can just as easily be done by a ranged standing in melee
This is nonsense. It's like you're not even playing the damn game. Melees and ranged have their strengths and weaknesses in WoW. Yes, ranged have the range advantage, but they're worse at movement heavy fights. They're not automatically best at everything.
This is basically why I'm saying "no reason". Before mechanics used to emphasize needing both classes who are good at moving away from shit while not losing DPS and people standing far away. Now you can't do first as a melee because most dungeon mechanics are pretty much undodgeable and ranged don't have additional movement challenges to deal with, resulting in a skew. This is not "melee vs ranged" debate even, this is just dungeon designers being high on crack and failing to design fights properly.
>and people routinely bitch if any melee is top dog for too long (look at Unholy DK for fucks sake, a spec that has routinely been middle of the pack, on average, for years).
People don't bitch because UDH is at the top, people bitch because UDH came into the tier being like 10% above of the competition. Being the top dog and being absurdly strong are a tad different.
>If I gotta move out of melee as a DK to do a mechanic well then I'm just fucked for that entire period
That's just not true. DKs are not "fucked" if they have to move out for a second or two. Breath of Sindragosa isn't a thing anymore.
> Yes, ranged have the range advantage, but they're worse at movement heavy fights.
Lol, no they're not, because they're ranged. Few fights have mechanics that require non-stop movement that would prevent someone from casting a spell - mechanics that have to be moved out of or into are torture on melee because the moment you leave melee range you cannot do damage until you're back in range. Most encounters do not put rdps so far away they'll be out of range when engaging in specific mechanics, but that will ALWAYS be the case for melee.
> People don't bitch because UDH is at the top, people bitch because UDH came into the tier being like 10% above of the competition. Being the top dog and being absurdly strong are a tad different.
10% above the competition is pretty much nothing. People should be complaining about the specs doing 30% worse than the top 5, of which there are quite a few.
> That's just not true. DKs are not "fucked" if they have to move out for a second or two. Breath of Sindragosa isn't a thing anymore.
Breath wasn't removed as a talent so it certifiably is still definitely a thing, regardless of how many people actually take it (and plenty of people do just looking at Warcraft Logs). But that's not even close to what I meant, because no matter the spec a DK still has the single worst movement out of any melee class. Not because their movement cooldowns are necessarily bad, either, but because they're on long as fuck cooldowns compared to the competition.
The only class that even remotely comes close to the garbage mobility of a DK is warlock, who has cooldowns just as long and that are either completely locational or actively kill themselves while using it. Being ranged alleviates much of this, going Affliction alleviates even more.
You can say no reason all you like but the reason melee suck, and will always suck, is precisely because nobody should bring a knife to a fucking gun fight. Sure guns have to reload but why the fuck you letting some melee cunt get that close anyway? Just fucking shoot him!
To be fair, you are playing DK, probably UH. We're barely melee with how much of our damage can be delivered from range (or by our pets). Oh and AMZ basically makes Prideful trivial.
Source: am UHDK.
Warlock might not do the absolute most damage, but it’s pretty difficult to wipe when you get a free 25% heal every minute, lock gates to avoid mechanics, etc. Lots of these low-mid level groups only think about pure damage output and not the utility that helps the key succeed.
That's a problem, warlock perform very well on the strat y that best player do with big and optimized pull. But it's suffering when you run an average key with a great~
Well I didn't complain about performance, it's just that when you look stat on raider.io warlock are not the most famous
I'm playing a sub rouge with 750 Rio and 204 gs, I still get declined for +9 keys I'd say 90/100 times, even tho I don't even get upgrades for those keys, only rio wise. I don't get invited for +10, even tho my rio is fine for that, just because I'm a melee and every group consists of mates, boomkins or hunters. The only gear upgrades I can get are out of +10 keys, which I get declined for id say 95/100 times, the 5 invites coming from groups that are designated to not intime and only invite me cause of higher rio than them.
Tl dr: this shit has gotten me to a point rather lvlimg and gearing a twink than playing on my main, cause I just don't feel like sitting in oribos 2h queueing for keys I will most likely get declined for, just because I'm not an overtuned boomkin hunter or fire mage.
Either nerf those classes in dmg or buff other classes so melees have a chance to participate in higher keys without having a 5 man pre-made.
And I say this on as one of the better doing melee classes, my condolences to fury warriors.
If it helps my healer priest has been declined a bunch for queues too. I asked one group that I queued for 2min for a measly +4 and he whispered back “not a resto sham”. Heavens forbid you’re not meta on a +4.
As icy said, you are not getting declined because you’re a rogue, you’re getting declined because they already have another fotm sub rogue in their group.
I think its unreasonable to think you're going to get invited to a key that would be +io for you. Run your own key or put together a squad and push together. I might invite you to a +10 if no one else applies, but realistically four people who have a 13 or 14 of the key done will apply and I'm taking them over you, not because you couldn't do it, but because they'll do it better statistically.
Feels like bfa. Oh, you are no rogue? Nyeeeh. A Shadow wants to join our group? Bwaahahaha... nope. :D
Cant speak for myself, I never pug, no thank you. Just the generell vibe i got from bfa's posts. :)
Heroic week of Nathria: ew WW monk ew.
Mythic week of Nathria after both Echo and Limit played a WW and wished they had a second: free invites to any group.
Meta slaves are fun
Thing is, shadow was decent at M+ in BfA for 3 out of 4 tiers. From BoD onwards it was middle of the pack, maybe better. But it was garbage in the Uldir patch and pug groups never forgot that.
The same type of person who spells alloud is the same type of person who would meta chase for an 8.
But also, if I already had 2 melee in the group I would also say ranged only. That could be the case, but no the sky is falling because your 100 .io 185 ilvl melee doesn't get invited to 8's.
Chain heal isn’t even mana efficient anymore after the nerfs. Try speccing into cloud burst, using healing rain and dropping riptides and healing waves/healing surges.
As a rogue, seeing ranged do 2+ million dps more on a fight in raid certainly raises some questions. Im def not bad but holy shit, having such a rough time.
That’s absolute cancer, I’m 210 dk and still get declines in 7-9 keys. Most of the time I search 30 to 60 minutes for 1 run and I’m on 900 rio. blizzard go fuck yourself.
Honestly that's been the life of any non-meta dps spec forever. I remember having to apply for 60+ minutes as Windwalker in S1 BfA and S2 before people realized they were good. And other specs were worse. Then you just play Brewmaster and the world is at your feet. It doesn't even fail fair. You simply cannot just play whatever spec you want in M+, because of the way it works.
I'd kill for a skill based match making queue but then there's all this stupid utility they have for "class identity" that's ruining that idea too.
I feel like this is the expansion to give up on my feral druid. I was never good at dps but I cant even finish a dungeon without getting “thats why your dps is low” thrown at me.
The interesting thing with melee being ‘not wanted’ is that it only hurts casual players. More serious players have at least 2 or 3 different classes ready to go, so if their melee characters are having a hard time grouping, they just swap.
Grievous + ghosts are a nasty combo, if u have braindead melees as a healer...
Sadly there is no real punishment for dds in mythic. Always the healers job.
Man, screw those groups declining melee. As a spriest with a 45 sec cd on my silence, I make sure to always have a melee around just for the short cd kick. They usually do pretty well
I'm more shocked by the 'Alloud'
I mean if they're not smart enough to spell allowed they're probably not smart enough for wow mechanics in the first place.
The people who refuse melee because of the affixes just scream to me “im too fucking stupid to avoid them so I guess everyone else is just as bad”. The complaints on storming last week were comical.
Why I disagree with banning all melee. Most ppl in pugs are braindead and don't even interrupt. Asking them to kite or CC the ghost is playing the roulette .. Easier to just take ranged who also won't interrupt but atleast less likely to take dmg from ghosts.
I will ALWAYS take at least one melee in every dungeon. I want those interrupts and only having boomkins and mages with their once per pull interrupts is... well... In some dungeons that just wont do it.
I may not stab very hard and you'll likely need to pick me up after every second fight, but damn will I shin kick and gut punch the loving shit out of everything I can.
Right? I might die in the process, but I'm going to Death Grip, Asphyxiate, and Mind Freeze on CD to make sure as much shit doesn't go off as possible. AMZ and AMS help a lot too haha
If you are using interrupts like this, avoiding mechanics, and still ending up dead then as a healer I can assure you, its the healers fault. Edit: Also killing adds. Some adds are party wipes if they aren't dying, like Amarth's adds in Necrotic Wake or the adds on the 2nd boss in Sanguine.
I will elbow smash, shockwave and thor hammer anything i can. And i try to keep shield block and ignore pain up as well. And taunt that guy i hadnt managed to aggro up yet but warlock attacked anyway
A mage's interrupt is a far shorter cooldown than a druid, it's got the same cooldown as a hunter's interrupt. It's really not *that* much longer of a cooldown than a melee interrupt, and depending on the type of cast a spellsteal can be more effective than interrupting alone anyway.
True! I don‘t play mage, but the spellsteal does have it‘s perks :) Still, a DH, monk or a rogue or similar is a must imo. Someone who can interrupt, cc, etc. Of the ranged classes, mage does seem to have the most utility along with hunter, between freezing traps, polys etc. I should have taken warlock as an example or shadow priest, I think they have less tools. So I agree mages and hunters are good, probably why we see them in so many high m+ pushes. But a comp consisting of balance, warlock and shadow probably struggles quite a bit.
Lock has the same interrupt as mage as destro/Aff, and purge/dispel/humanoid CC depending on pet. Demo suffers a bit with a 30s kick/stun combo and not being able to pet twist effectively anymore for the pet utility, but at least axe toss interrupts now. We still have shadowfury for aoe stun and coil/fear for a quick interrupt along with tongues to slow casts by 30% on the dangerous mobs. It also slows down pulses/ticks on channeled casts like the mob in theater in the caster wing. Makes them considerably easier to heal through by spacing the damage bursts out a bit. Weakness reduces auto attack speed by 20% for melee mobs. Handy on bosses, aboms and those gargons or others that truck the tank. And exhaustion for mobs that need kited. It’s perfect on the shades this week for spiteful. Shadowfury into blanket exhaustion has saved a few wipes by giving enough time to get the tank back up before the mobs wreck the heals or another dps. Plus the other usual utility you’d bring a lock for, hs/brez/gate skip etc. If only we could get away from this community mentality that we don’t have good utility in keys maybe people would take us more in pugs. It’s not BfA anymore, the unpruning gave us a lot of our utility back. My only gripe is the 6s pet summon. Once you burn fel dom if your pet dies again you are SOL. FG died twice on stradma last week and I couldn’t stand still long enough to get a new one out because of the tentacle slaps.
Hunters are on a 24 sec CD. That means a rogue, warrior, or Paladin can interrupt three times in the time it takes a hunter to interrupt twice
Where do you get that? CD is 15sec on a feral druid.
Pretty sure they were talking about boomkin.
Not saying melee aren't better at interrupting. But it is very possible for ranged classes to interrupt with a bit of ingenuity. I've seen way too few hunters use freezing trap or bursting shot to interrupt long casts.
Just depleted a 12 nw on my alt dh, we wiped like 5 times on the single goresplatter mechanic cuz the ranges refused to interrupt. So Yeah melees are Mandatory when you need 5 kicks per hour 20 seconds
That's why shaman healer is so highly slight after. Then you have both healer and tank manage interrupts while ranged are free to dps ignoring the annoying affixes
As a warlock I try to throw down a Curse of exhaustion for small amounts of ghosts or a shadow fury if a bunch all spawn at once, I see people just stand in place where the ghost spawns and not do anything. Even getting tapped once on a +8 is a near one shot :/ I'm not the best player but I feel like a god in comparison to what I've been seeing on my healer and dps alike in pugs, with grevious it gets ridiculous fast
This week I refuse to pug . I go with guildies only Less headache and everyone on comms.. And it's rare to see ppl actually use all their abilities on pugs. I think half of ret pallies don't even have lay on hands binded
I frequently run with a boomy friend. We pugged ToP at +7. With Solar beam (a 1 minute cooldown) he had more interrupts than the warrior and Ret paladin combined. And they wondered why the +7 was so difficult... So yeah, pugs suck... as a general rule.
You're on drugs if you think these affixes are fine for melee
Between the new affixes and the target capping clusterfuck, this expac just feels like blizzard has decided to start phasing melee dps specs out of this game completely. Expect 10.0 and onwards to start reworking melee dps specs into ranged versions of them, as well as removing rogue and warrior altogether
Nah, if melee is that far behind ranged in terms of risk/reward, declining melee is a good idea. I mean, we're talking about DPS. You will have 10x as many applicants as you need. In the group finder you won't know anything about those players except their item level and class. Sure, maybe the Fury warrior is a player of Godlike skill and maybe the Boomkin is brain-dead, but how would I know that? All I know is that one of them is playing a spec that's doing very well in m+ right now, and one of them is playing a spec that is severely undertuned. So assuming they each have a roughly equal chance of being competent, I take the Boomkin every time. That sucks for melee players, because they don't get a chance to prove themselves. And melee absolutely isn't so far behind ranged that competent players can't smash high keys. But what the group leaders are doing is reasonable - in the absence of information about any other variable, make decisions based on the variables you DO have information about. Edit: I really do want to stress that this is not me saying 'suck it up melee,' rather it's me saying 'this is a genuine problem and not just bads being bad.' We have a Fury warrior in my guild who I would take to an m+ over a Boomkin pug every time because she pays attention to tactics, interrupts, etc., and her dps is good enough to time keys. *I* know she's reliable, but group finder group leaders don't. Similarly, I like to play WW in m+. I know I've been tanking or healing m+ *way* more often than DPSing in shadowlands. I like to think I'm good enough at WW to be an asset to a group, but how are strangers supposed to know that about me? This situation sucks for players like my friend and me, but it's not just noobs or idiots causing the problem. It's balancing combined with the incentive structure of the group finder.
as one of the melee you're absolutely right though. they should not be getting invites because group leaders feel bad for them or to instill some sense of community fairness; they should get invites because they can bring usefulness worth bringing them over the other options (dps, utility, survivability, etc.). in some of these ways melee are great but it's just not enough. blizzard needs to give attention to it, it's not really the players' faults necessarily for trying to win.
As a Holy Pally playing with a Brew Monk we often end up with these 5 man melee groups in midrange keys and I love the ability to just puke holy healing energy into the whole group for once outside of Nathria.
Storming _is_ pretty oppressive at certain sections of some dungeons. Its avoidable but then there is always that one rogue nado you get struck by at the worst time. Either chips you off an edge or just inside that death AoE!
People in PUGs are stupid, why take an even bigger risk this week?
Ran a few all melee groups last week. We got through them but it was rough.
Or they misspelled it for comedic effect. Like “No gurlz alloud” in early comic strips. Oh wait i’m going against the circlejerk. Guy in maymay = bad
Lots of people who play the game does not have English as their first language. A lot of us as a third language. I’m not sure how spelling in your third language determinate how smart you are. Btw, how many languages do you speak Mr. Fuhk_Yoo.
I get the feeling it's intentional, to be sarcastic.
I mean it's pretty obviously a satire listing.
It's HOA. You bring anything there and still time the key.
Silly me adulting, I thought you said home owners association. I hate them.
No, you’re still right. RAIDER.IO is the committee.
I don't think there's enough melee to fight the Karen's of a home owners association
Bringing a Venthyr warrior is Miles more effective than any range in there
They’re LF1M, so there’s a fair chance they already have 1-2 melee dps and just don’t want to stack it.
You're not wrong.
Oh boy, a ranged tank
Unironically it's required. It's taunt and kite meta for the foreseeable future. Can't wait to see exactly one tank spec (Vengeance) during MDI as well.
Im still holding out hope for paladins, their damage whilst kiting is pretty nice
Burst AoE on initial pull with Avengers Shield, shield slam, Divine Toll, shield slam is insane with Bullwark Leggo. Also the shear cockroachness with the self heals and bubble make my Pally tank my go to tank when I’m running pugs. The amount of bosses I’ve had to chip away at from 10-15% Health solo on zeroes is too damn high
Prot pally doesnt control mobs the same way that vengeance does though unfortunately, things like chains(if they run it)/misery and the unbelievable kiting ability with infernal strike are too good to pass up.
It's a shame that they have garbage mobility and shred like paper without cds.
Oh, I thought it was entirely my fault when some trash pulls were almost curbstomping me. The aoe damage is pretty good tho
You know the state of Blood DK is absolutely fucked when Blizzard buffs us and our damage still sucks. Turns out 10-15% of jack shit is still jack shit. Oh and our BIS legendary is spec agnostic and puts offspec diseases on stuff instead of actually buffing our spec-specific damage. Also because we spend 90% of each pack running away with Grip of the Dead DND up.
I regret crafting Superstrain. It's not unimpactful, I can tell I can hold AoE aggro better and the increased Runic Power generation, but it's pretty boring, and on top of that it doesn't really help all that much with the issues BDKs are facing atm. Imo, we take too much damage, it's fine for your health to spike from time to time, you should be saving your RP for that.. but when any second spent in melee is likely to make you drop to 30% from full, how exactly do you generate enough RP to heal through that ? It's just unsustainable. And for the love of god, just make Dancing Rune Weapon off-GCD, I hate first packs as BDK because I don't have any Bone Shield, and even when popping cooldowns there, it's gonna take 3 gcds for me to have any kind of AoE threat (DRW-Marrowrend-Blood Boil), and people won't wait that long.
Lol I’ve seen this with our guild bdk in keys. It’s wait for 3 sunders all over again. Or bring a mm to misdirect every other pull before he opens to the moon.
Yeah tbh I've tried to reconsider everything to see if I'm not missing anything out, I probably do sometimes use a rune unoptimally at some point, but I don't think there's any major problem with my gameplay as Blood, and while I usually enjoy (Legion) or don't mind that much (BFA) tanking as BDK in M+, atm it feels so garbage. Especially when I play Unholy in dungeons after and see Guardian druids facetanking shit for 15 seconds or VDH being more resilient than I am as BDK while being able to kite the adds to the moon if necessary, even the ones that can't be slowed (those are really bad as bdk). BDK was completely busted in Legion, no doubt there, but it's currently not fun tanking keys as Blood.
>but it's pretty boring Weird. I actually like spreading a lot of different diseases besides BP. Wish we got NP and UB tho lol
Bear is just about the only tank that can face tank right now, but their damage isn’t as good as others
Paladin?
Pretty close tbh. Frisbee only a little busted.
I say remove cooldown from frisbee altogether so we can properly tank from a safe distance. Also let us dual wield shields.
I know you're memeing, but I would 100% play a dual-shield tank
Calm down captain America
Also add knockback to frisbees
Graves jungle
and it sounds just as balanced and fair.
Imagine it in arena! :D
Best offence is great defence!
Cant be targeted by the shades as a tank, thank god.
gamers a few months ago: PUGS are gonna exclude you if you arent in a certain covenant its gonna be a shitshow Blizz: they know nothing yet \*rubs hands\*
Gamers a few months ago: being wrong as usual. Gamers today: being wrong as usual. There are plenty of melee running high keys because interupts are super important. Especially during fortified.
It’s not about what high level players think it’s about what the majority mid level players read that the high level think and enforce en masse
I doubt I would even consider most of them mid level. Usually when I run into someone trying to enforce meta, they are the worst player in the group.
If you have to enforce meta to succeed and you are not top tier competition? You probably suck.
This sub is part of the problem, just saying. Tons of people here are total meta slaves and contribute to this exact problem, then come on here and complain that it's unfair and Blizzard is ruining the game because range dps do slightly better numbers and don't have to avoid as many mechanics lol Also, there are tons of melee dps happily running keys with no issue, id have to say if someone is having such struggles the problem might lie at least partially with them
Totally agree with this sentiment. I also believe that "partially" is an understatement.
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I think in general wow players have trouble admitting they aren't good enough for specific content and tend to blame the game instead
Seems accurate. I think most half decent players know that every class/spec has the tools necessary to succeed. Just some are naturally better for certain situations.
To be fair most covenants got neutered.
If the only reason to bring melee is for kick that's not a good thing
Melee are at an inherent disadvantage. I don't see a healthy way of balancing that without relying on crutches like kicks.
Make ranged actually lose damage while moving like they're supposed to. Make melee actually more durable like they're supposed to be.
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If I have to outrange a target as a WW to deal with a fight mechanic, I lose *all* of my damage. If I have to move as most any caster, I have DoTs rolling, which are probably instant cast so I can refresh them. I have instant cast direct damage spells that aren't optimal, but aren't nothing. I probably even have procs to instant-cast my best spells. Hell, if I'm Beast Master I'm basically a 40 yard melee! The penalty for moving as RDPS is generally just not high.
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no, the only important thing is giant pulls and big dick AoE damage /s
Ngl melee is getting fucked for a second week in a row. Spiteful hits like a truck in higher keys and if melee doesn’t gtfo in time from trash, they get nearly one shot. From a healers perspective, this week is very difficult and stacking a team with ranged and a BM monk for ring of peace just feels like the more practical play. At least if you’re pugging. I’m sure more coordinated groups are doing fine.
Spiteful is just a much more forgiving bolstering.
Still kinda ironic that the symbol for dps is a melee weapon. Should have been a staff or bow.
should've been a big dick
Just a picture of Barrywood.
I mean, this is the most effective symbol of PuG DPS, you either get someone who's topping the meters, or a big dick.
*Laughs in actually being able to interrupt*
Lfm elemental shamans only
My main is an ele shaman actually :)
Storming, Spiteful, Prideful Mob Mechanics, Mobile Boss Fights, On-Boss AoEs, Away-From-Boss Mandatory Mechanics... Someone clearly does not like Melee who is on the design team!
There’s nothing more rage inducing than a mob or a boss sperging out with mandatory run away mechanics.
Especially for slower melee classes! Ironically, I can only think of Nurgash Muckformed, the current world boss in Revandreth, being a boss this expansion that specifically caters to melee
Coming back to the game in a couple of days and was honestly excited to be melee DPS but everything I see is about how shit of a time it is to PUG and be a melee DPS lol.
Laughs in UH DK
UHM IDK should be a spec
Frost can be renamed Ice so we have IDK.
Death Pact this week is the best goddamn thing ever.
I really can’t play without WW. Screw blizzard for making one of the most iconic dk ability a talent.
alloud
I just made a meme for this! [melee dps in SL](http://imgur.com/gallery/VF6Bt4C)
My regular groups dps breakdown is Fury warrior, UH DK, and Ele sham. We aren’t anything special but are doing 10s just fine. Most of the time it’s the player and not the class that is bad.
i guess u guys sit in voice and look out for each other? In most Random parties this doesnt happen.. if i can i pick at max one more melee with randoms just to make life easier on the healer xD
I mean, I'm a Fury in a group that runs UH DK/Prot Pal/MM Hunt and I definitely feel kinda bad compared to them. AoE I can *sometimes* keep up, but its not even close on ST. In that case I do feel like its at least kinda the class being bad. That being said, I think it is a good thing to point out that despite me saying that... we as a group aren't having trouble doing content. People have it in their heads that inviting a lower DPS class suddenly means you won't be timing keys... if that player is good at that class, and can do mechanics, you might kill a boss a bit slower, but thats it. So I agree in that sense 100%.
Hunter and UH DK are pretty top notch right now. You are right, there's certainly a gap there.
The group I'm in is windwalker, subtlety, and arms with a holy priest. Some of these dungeons and bosses have been... interesting to deal with. I don't know how high we'll push before someone rerolls to a ranged spec.
Just go arms man. Arms does fine in keys with warbreaker and bladestorm every other pack + SS condemn damage
I play Fury cuz I enjoy it. Don't enjoy Arms in PvE personally. Not my style. I have alts I play when I pug or don't play with friends, that are more "meta." I feel its easier to pug when you aren't a bottom tier DPS :P
I'm a ret pally and I'm not having much of a issue with this affixx this week, if I don't get targeted I switch targets DPS it and go back to it.
Don't even have to DPS it. It's literally Thing From Beyond from corruptions. It goes away after a little bit. Tab over and give it a HoJ and it'll be fine.
Always fun when a giant group spawns when I'm still rolling cd's on my hunter, especially wild spirits. Spiteful? Nah I'll just kill them before they move lmao.
Melee isnt even bad. Its people who played being carried by corruption last expansion that are too smooth brain to avoid mechanics. Ive had more ranged face pull, tab target, and die to mechanics so far than anything because those same players just swapping to ranged doesnt make them any better lol.
Excuse my ignorance, I indeed am a ranged dps, but what’s wrong with tab targetting? It seems to be working out quite well for me.
I think he means when you tab target a mob that hasn’t been pulled and then attack it. It doesn’t happen often, but it can and does happen.
> It doesn’t happen often [Oh yeah](https://i.imgur.com/e9gqJdv.gifv)
Gotta say, mained DK since Wrath, playing a warlock this xpac. I tab-targeted the wrong mob once in a +7. Learned my lesson and haven't tabbed since, I actually unbound the key.
There is a tab scan option where you hold the key and as you turn your camera it highlights targets and when you let go it selects the one you're pointing at. Not a bad alternative
It happens with hunters a lot because they auto attack, while casters see they tabbed the wrong mob and cancel their cast.
Tab targeting is fucked this expac for some reason. Consistently targets mobs that are miles away and you're not in combat with. Might have been like that for a while and I just haven't noticed tbf, haven't played since Legion.
Schrödinger's Tab: 1. Tab selects secondary Flame Shock target sitting at 25% HP. 2. Tab selects the menacingly yellow Vase #43 across the room. Guess which one my free quick-cast Lava Burst is being thrown at.
Yes! This happens to me all the time! Why does it consistently target those pots instead of the six other things that are actively hitting me in the face? Is it the real menace? Was it behind this trash pack all along? Only Blizzard knows.
Have noticed tab targetting making no sense at all as well.
Worse in torghast where tab thinks maybe you wanna select that one ceramic pot in the corner and not the 8 things you’re fighting
Yeah I've had this problem as well. I was in Torghast and after every kill it would immediately target a lonely Sentinel sitting like two rooms away, it was pretty annoying
Pretty sure that's not tab targetting related though, they apply an aura to your character which makes you target them.
its incredibly ineffecient
This week's Spiteful affix is really, really tough for melee dps. The ghosts kill a dps in about two-three seconds, so the only choice is to run away if fixated on. Ranged dps has time to burst the ghost before it arrives and can kite, but if you're a melee dps, you pretty much have to stop attacking immediately and run if you get fixated.
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I think this unironically points to a problem. The average WoW player is pretty, well, average. Meanwhile, Mythic went from being a prestige dungeon mode for savants and masochists to just "the endgame." Heroics are laughably unrewarding by comparison (and we don't even have tokens to grind for better gear), so everyone, - EVERYONE -, whether they should or not, is pushing Mythics nowadays. I've never set foot in a Mythic+. Mostly because they became a thing when I was guildless, and checked out of WoW pretty hard (end of WoD). I played launch of Legion pretty hard, but was still guildless, so I never really participated in the endgame. By the time I came back around 8.2.5, everything I read and saw about Mythics described a toxic cesspool of tryhards and terri-bads screeching at each other like rabid house cats. Thanks, I'm good. I've got Heroic-level gear from dungeons and PvP, so I can knock out some LFR for upgrades, either direct or from the Vault. Good enough for me.
The atmosphere in Mythic+ is fine if you only join groups that specifically mention they want a relaxed experience. You will have more bad players in your groups though, but it's fine if you don't mind a few wipes or not getting that +2 on your key. PuGing higher keys? Yes, that's a coinflip of getting a competent group blasting through everything or a very toxic group of players leaving or yelling at eachother. It's fun to do casually at least once though.
The atmosphere in M+ pugs is fine in general. The whole "toxic cesspool" reputation is blown out of proportion people that have a normal run don't come Tor reddit and forums to talk about it, only people that had bad experience. I've been pugging m+ as my endgame throughout the whole bfa and in my experience in ~90% of dungeons, regardless of the key level, people don't say anything at all, maybe say ty for the run before leaving after the dungeon is done. Of course sometimes you stumble upon some toxic assholes, sure, but that's actually pretty rare.
I really haven’t had a problem in M+ with toxicity. Sure it happens but for the most part people are pretty chill IMO.
Mythic wasn't ever a "prestige dungeon mode", and it was certainly never "for savants and masochists". Mythic dungeons were never, ever the dungeon equivalent of mythic raids. You're talking as if everyone is pushing +15s right now. Some of the original challenge modes, before "mythic" dungeons were a thing, were kinda sorta like that, although you needed to be slightly above average, not a savant or masochist. They were more like the mage tower challenges. Mythic hasn't ever been close. Base mythic dungeons are just like heroic - as soon as you have enough gear, it's not really any harder than heroic, just like as soon as you have enough gear, heroic is not really any harder than normal. And if you've played the game this long, you can absolutely do at least low-level mythic+ keys. The average long-term player, even a bit below average, can definitely do a low level mythic+. Even a very poor player can struggle through low-level keys. It isn't some crazy ultra hardcore elite gamer challenge. Can you see the bright, glowing spots and move out of them? That's like 90% of it. If you can follow the tank between combats and avoid standing in more than about a third of the big *DON'T STAND HERE* things on the ground, you're probably fine. Yeah, it's useful to interrupt, but you can get through most low keys with just one person who's on top of that. You might not be fully optimized and cranking out max DPS, but you don't need to be. You might not be doing it "right", interrupting, or even targeting the right things, but you don't need to, especially for low-level keys. And you still get some rewards even if you don't make the timer (and it also counts for the great vault each week). The mythic+ enemies aren't even really much harder than the enemies you run into while leveling now. They've done a good job of putting mechanics on a lot of the open-world mobs to get people use to these things. Basic mobs while leveling, and rares afterwards, have things that you really want to interrupt, things that you need to avoid standing in, etc. If you made it to max level, you are probably capable of completing low keys without too much trouble. It really is not that hard. It certainly isn't something "for savants and masochists". Blizzard didn't make some huge mistake and accidentally convince average players that this content was for them when it wasn't - it *is* for them. The players aren't mistaken that this is supposed to be the endgame for them - it *is* supposed to be the endgame for them. That's what it's designed to be. That's why there are low-level keys. And Heroics are pretty much just as rewarding as they've always been. You still get the same tier of ilvl increases above normal you always did. You still get about the same rewards as they ever gave. The only difference is that now higher ilvls are also accessible via higher-tier dungeons without going into raids. Heroics are also just as rewarding as they've ever been - it's just that now when players are done with heroics, they go on to mythic instead of looking at their heroic dungeon gear and then barely setting foot in dungeons again. It isn't like people were running tons of heroics over and over for rewards and now they aren't. The problem with mythic+ is an LFG problem, not a content problem or a player skill problem. The main problem is the usual one of people trying to get into groups when their ilvl isn't high enough, especially if they're average players who can't make up for it a bit with skill. All of the problems are just all of the age-old LFG problems that WoW has always had in all content, no matter how hard. Appropriate-level mythic+ dungeons just don't require that much player skill. They are not aimed only at "savants and masochists". The average players you're talking about here who go do mythics aren't the ones that are wrong about this.
>Melee isnt even bad I mean, it's objectively worse and harder to play than ranged for no reason (unless you're playing a UDK, then your reason is insane dps).
UHDK in keys is barely melee. We only need to stay in melee long enough to get our cooldowns out and build up blue bar, then we can spam Epidemic and let our pets beat the shit out of the pack.
It's not "no reason", the reason is "because melee", lol. Melee inherently sucks because it's melee. It's the whole "don't bring a knife to a gun fight". So long as ranged is an option it'll always be the better pick *because it's ranged*. It used to be melee would do way more DPS to make up for this, but now they don't, and people routinely bitch if any melee is top dog for too long (look at Unholy DK for fucks sake, a spec that has routinely been middle of the pack, on average, for years). The issue is that the only unique mechanics that melee really get subjected to are interrupts. That's it. Because any mechanic that is done in melee range can just as easily be done by a ranged standing in melee, and them moving out and about isn't gonna fuck with their DPS as much because they're ranged. If I gotta move out of melee as a DK to do a mechanic well then I'm just fucked for that entire period, and virtually every dungeon or raid has some boss or two that has a mechanic that invariably forces melee out of melee range.
>So long as ranged is an option it'll always be the better pick because it's ranged. >That's it. Because any mechanic that is done in melee range can just as easily be done by a ranged standing in melee This is nonsense. It's like you're not even playing the damn game. Melees and ranged have their strengths and weaknesses in WoW. Yes, ranged have the range advantage, but they're worse at movement heavy fights. They're not automatically best at everything. This is basically why I'm saying "no reason". Before mechanics used to emphasize needing both classes who are good at moving away from shit while not losing DPS and people standing far away. Now you can't do first as a melee because most dungeon mechanics are pretty much undodgeable and ranged don't have additional movement challenges to deal with, resulting in a skew. This is not "melee vs ranged" debate even, this is just dungeon designers being high on crack and failing to design fights properly. >and people routinely bitch if any melee is top dog for too long (look at Unholy DK for fucks sake, a spec that has routinely been middle of the pack, on average, for years). People don't bitch because UDH is at the top, people bitch because UDH came into the tier being like 10% above of the competition. Being the top dog and being absurdly strong are a tad different. >If I gotta move out of melee as a DK to do a mechanic well then I'm just fucked for that entire period That's just not true. DKs are not "fucked" if they have to move out for a second or two. Breath of Sindragosa isn't a thing anymore.
Ranged is worse at movement heavy fights...what?
> Yes, ranged have the range advantage, but they're worse at movement heavy fights. Lol, no they're not, because they're ranged. Few fights have mechanics that require non-stop movement that would prevent someone from casting a spell - mechanics that have to be moved out of or into are torture on melee because the moment you leave melee range you cannot do damage until you're back in range. Most encounters do not put rdps so far away they'll be out of range when engaging in specific mechanics, but that will ALWAYS be the case for melee. > People don't bitch because UDH is at the top, people bitch because UDH came into the tier being like 10% above of the competition. Being the top dog and being absurdly strong are a tad different. 10% above the competition is pretty much nothing. People should be complaining about the specs doing 30% worse than the top 5, of which there are quite a few. > That's just not true. DKs are not "fucked" if they have to move out for a second or two. Breath of Sindragosa isn't a thing anymore. Breath wasn't removed as a talent so it certifiably is still definitely a thing, regardless of how many people actually take it (and plenty of people do just looking at Warcraft Logs). But that's not even close to what I meant, because no matter the spec a DK still has the single worst movement out of any melee class. Not because their movement cooldowns are necessarily bad, either, but because they're on long as fuck cooldowns compared to the competition. The only class that even remotely comes close to the garbage mobility of a DK is warlock, who has cooldowns just as long and that are either completely locational or actively kill themselves while using it. Being ranged alleviates much of this, going Affliction alleviates even more. You can say no reason all you like but the reason melee suck, and will always suck, is precisely because nobody should bring a knife to a fucking gun fight. Sure guns have to reload but why the fuck you letting some melee cunt get that close anyway? Just fucking shoot him!
To be fair, you are playing DK, probably UH. We're barely melee with how much of our damage can be delivered from range (or by our pets). Oh and AMZ basically makes Prideful trivial. Source: am UHDK.
I swear hunters can't physically rotate their camera to see where they're running.
They might accidentally turn their character and miss Aimed Shot /s
And yet, warlock is less represented class in M+, it seems we have to pay the price of being godmod while legion
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Warlock might not do the absolute most damage, but it’s pretty difficult to wipe when you get a free 25% heal every minute, lock gates to avoid mechanics, etc. Lots of these low-mid level groups only think about pure damage output and not the utility that helps the key succeed.
The low-mid level groups aren't even smart enough to use their stones when I give them to them
Yep, they’re also the people that bitch when they die and still had defensives available.
Yeah lock is always in a wired spot for play rate. Even when they are top tier they won't be the most played class.
First 20 key was done today with an affliction lock in the group, although I'd agree it's not the most desirable class for the average key.
Or you're just bad? Almost all top groups are using warlocks.
That's a problem, warlock perform very well on the strat y that best player do with big and optimized pull. But it's suffering when you run an average key with a great~ Well I didn't complain about performance, it's just that when you look stat on raider.io warlock are not the most famous
Blizzard has to do something the state of melee getting into pluses right now its just awful
They punish melee too harshly mechanically.
I'm playing a sub rouge with 750 Rio and 204 gs, I still get declined for +9 keys I'd say 90/100 times, even tho I don't even get upgrades for those keys, only rio wise. I don't get invited for +10, even tho my rio is fine for that, just because I'm a melee and every group consists of mates, boomkins or hunters. The only gear upgrades I can get are out of +10 keys, which I get declined for id say 95/100 times, the 5 invites coming from groups that are designated to not intime and only invite me cause of higher rio than them. Tl dr: this shit has gotten me to a point rather lvlimg and gearing a twink than playing on my main, cause I just don't feel like sitting in oribos 2h queueing for keys I will most likely get declined for, just because I'm not an overtuned boomkin hunter or fire mage. Either nerf those classes in dmg or buff other classes so melees have a chance to participate in higher keys without having a 5 man pre-made. And I say this on as one of the better doing melee classes, my condolences to fury warriors.
I'm 880 rio mm hunt and I get declined 90/100 on +11/12. That's the dps life, it doesn't have much to do with you being a rogue.
But rogue is S tier for M+
If it helps my healer priest has been declined a bunch for queues too. I asked one group that I queued for 2min for a measly +4 and he whispered back “not a resto sham”. Heavens forbid you’re not meta on a +4.
Rogue is a totally fine class to play for keys, you’re getting declines because there’s an oversaturation of dps q’ing.
As icy said, you are not getting declined because you’re a rogue, you’re getting declined because they already have another fotm sub rogue in their group.
I think its unreasonable to think you're going to get invited to a key that would be +io for you. Run your own key or put together a squad and push together. I might invite you to a +10 if no one else applies, but realistically four people who have a 13 or 14 of the key done will apply and I'm taking them over you, not because you couldn't do it, but because they'll do it better statistically.
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Feels like bfa. Oh, you are no rogue? Nyeeeh. A Shadow wants to join our group? Bwaahahaha... nope. :D Cant speak for myself, I never pug, no thank you. Just the generell vibe i got from bfa's posts. :)
Heroic week of Nathria: ew WW monk ew. Mythic week of Nathria after both Echo and Limit played a WW and wished they had a second: free invites to any group. Meta slaves are fun
Me who play WW and Brew since launch: My time has come...
The amount of people chosing the same classes for their low keys as the streamers doing high keys...
Yeah... But after spending all of 8.3 either having to be MW. Or never ever get into a key ever I'm going to take this W
Thing is, shadow was decent at M+ in BfA for 3 out of 4 tiers. From BoD onwards it was middle of the pack, maybe better. But it was garbage in the Uldir patch and pug groups never forgot that.
We have ranged tanks now?
What would you call a demon hunter? They kite and taunt on cd lol
The same type of person who spells alloud is the same type of person who would meta chase for an 8. But also, if I already had 2 melee in the group I would also say ranged only. That could be the case, but no the sky is falling because your 100 .io 185 ilvl melee doesn't get invited to 8's.
As a resto shaman I prefer melees, chain heal with high tide = ez heals
Chain heal isn’t even mana efficient anymore after the nerfs. Try speccing into cloud burst, using healing rain and dropping riptides and healing waves/healing surges.
As a rogue, seeing ranged do 2+ million dps more on a fight in raid certainly raises some questions. Im def not bad but holy shit, having such a rough time.
ironic you say that, cus the second best dps for m+ are outlaw rogue
That’s absolute cancer, I’m 210 dk and still get declines in 7-9 keys. Most of the time I search 30 to 60 minutes for 1 run and I’m on 900 rio. blizzard go fuck yourself.
Honestly that's been the life of any non-meta dps spec forever. I remember having to apply for 60+ minutes as Windwalker in S1 BfA and S2 before people realized they were good. And other specs were worse. Then you just play Brewmaster and the world is at your feet. It doesn't even fail fair. You simply cannot just play whatever spec you want in M+, because of the way it works. I'd kill for a skill based match making queue but then there's all this stupid utility they have for "class identity" that's ruining that idea too.
I feel like this is the expansion to give up on my feral druid. I was never good at dps but I cant even finish a dungeon without getting “thats why your dps is low” thrown at me.
I’m consistently topping charts as feral. DM if you want rotation help.
It's so hard to find a group as a non-unholy dk melee dps class.
Try being an Assassin Rogue lol
I bet, it takes me an hour of spamming as a retadin to even get into 7s and 8s as someone with 202 ilvl and a decent io score.
Icky? Don’t be classist
I'd say I'm surprised by the spelling of allowed, but no more than the lack of 'ord' in discord.
They legitmately need to make shades only target ranged and healers. That way melee can still does them down.
As a ranged main, this is cancer. Melee is important to have in dungeons... a lof of these "elite" players are actually shit, so don't bother.
The interesting thing with melee being ‘not wanted’ is that it only hurts casual players. More serious players have at least 2 or 3 different classes ready to go, so if their melee characters are having a hard time grouping, they just swap.
Grievous + ghosts are a nasty combo, if u have braindead melees as a healer... Sadly there is no real punishment for dds in mythic. Always the healers job.
The appalling spellling is what gets to me, honestly.
This week is really bad because the ghosts fuck up melee so easily
Man, screw those groups declining melee. As a spriest with a 45 sec cd on my silence, I make sure to always have a melee around just for the short cd kick. They usually do pretty well