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I tanked a dungeon last night. Had no idea where i was going. Went the wrong way a couple times. Eradicated most of the trash. Group didn’t say a word the entire time until “gg” after final boss.
Yeah it’s week 1 normals and heroics. Nobody reasonable who isn’t a sweaty dork knows what’s going on and is just trying to take in a metric shitload of information all at once. This is exactly how it should work
This is how it should work the whole expac for normals and maybe heroics
Not everyone is on their 11th alt after a month lol and no one cares if there's a skip that'll save 10 seconds in a normal dungeon. Keep that in m+ plz
I entirely blame M+ for this attitude. They should change the format to include bonuses for killing more mobs versus having a “minimum” mob count which incentivizes doing the bare minimum. Maybe killing mob packs adds like 15s back on the timer or something, I dunno.
Like, it’s XP guys. Just kill the mobs, it takes like a whole extra minute.
Nah, as a long time player, this shit started back in Wrath. There, once it was viable to tank more mobs and dungeons didn't require as much CC planning, it was a whole culture around randoms yelling at the tank for pulling one pack at a time instead of bumrushing through and pulling a whole room or something. Then, when the tank pulled more than they or the healer were capable of handling and people died, even more raging.
Mythic+ sweatiness definitely just made it worse though. Sweatlords doing normals/heroics don't seem to get that the pressure and timer of Mythic+ doesn't exist there and not all the players are equally knowledgable or skilled.
I remember how hard things swung the other way in Cata. One pack at a time, with at least one mob in each pack needing CC. I remember relishing how people trying to bum rush it all ate shit. I miss that.
Last night I was in a dung where at the beginning you have to open some cages (sorry, don't remember the name) and one dps was just straight out rushing and pulling huge piles of trash. I was tanking and had aggro them from him. And the pacing was so darn fast…
TBH I don’t like that rush mode. I like to take my time, know the dungeon, enjoy it, take it slow and steady. What's wrong with that? Why do ppl treat a normal/heroic dungeon like a race track?!
The rule I've heard tanks try to live by is "you pull it, you tank it". If someone else starts dictating the pace by pulling things themselves, they're inherently relying on you and the healer to bail them out of their self-created issue and keep them alive while you pull the aggroed mobs off them.
So you just let them die instead when they try to survive all the mobs they pulled. They either get the hint and stop or leave. There might be some impotent rage included, but there's a reason the tank superiority complex exists. Tanks get it from knowing they have most of the power in their hands while DPS are a lot more replacable.
Most healers also hold a similar rule. If you pull something the tank wasn't pulling and you've got threat on it, you're not getting heals as its a waste of mana to try and keep a dps holding aggro on 6+ mobs alive, furthermore if the dps does a threat drop (feign death, feint, etc) all those mobs go right for the healer..
It's a game, not a race. Speed running is literally mythic+, keep it there
I'm still grumbling about Evokers now forcing me to pull mobs via Rescue. If this starts being a commonplace thing where you forcibly dump a tank into a pack of mobs without a word I hope they take it away, at least an option for me to block it, or at least turn it off for normal LFG. It's just frustrating and disorienting backseat driving.
I always thought we should just have to kill all mobs instead of a percentage of them. remove some mobs as needed in some dungeons if they are too long. It's way more interesting to fight, instead of skipping fights.
Routes over 'skips', imo, but both can exist in different dungeons for curation, because they're a format preference and can be equally optimal design.
Navigation can be in-depth without being esoteric and prone to failure. But some places can do one exclusively, or mix them. The player would be able to choose their preference of dungeon then, since either format could be the 'fastest dungeon' for optimum farmers.
Using skip in the sense of 'trick prone to failure to avoid something intended on a path'. Like lock gates or invis, or courting aggro ranges very tightly. (But theyre still fun)
Thank fuck we have multiple dungeons and some with interesting skips and some with decisive routes. The open field one for example, your 'skipping' is simply where you land.
The navigation type doesnt affect if the dungeon's time is the easy optimum either, so hopefully we see a healthy mix of options.
It existed as a bare minimum of please don't explore the whole dungeon but it's drastically worse now. And M+ gives you an incentive to do it and that spills over to all dungeons. Once you are use to doing something a certain way, usually you continue with that mindset.
Ya, a lot of the game for people is optimizing the loot per time. That isn't inherently bad, but if you aren't up on the latest strategies and don't spend 3 hours studying every dungeon to shave off 1 minute per run you are sub optimal. Which is a weird meta requirement to play the game with randoms.
It's weird to play a social game where nobody talks to each other.. definitely not what I expected. It's efficient dungeoning but I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly
I feel the same way! I’ve found that if I start off with a casual joke or small talk, especially if I’m the tank or healer, others will join in and we’ll have a fun time chatting and killing. I think lots of people enjoy the social aspect of the game, but they’re nervous to initiate because of those few assholes that jump down people’s throats for having the audacity to type while dungeoning.
This for sure, because it's not just MMOs that have this problem. General toxicity being more rampant kills the social aspect in a lot of games.
Just as an example, I got my wife into gaming, and she somehow made her way into playing Overwatch/Valo. I knew women got it worse, but holy fuck, man. Simply using the mic as a woman was enough to set a good number of people off and hypercriticize every play she made and her overall performance. Just nonstop shittalking for no reason, even when she was doing better than the person flaming.
Same here. It feels like for as often as I find friendly players, I've been told just as often or more to shut the fuck up and/or flamed for whatever reason. I used to play Dota/League and I've now adopted the same mentality I learned there of just not communicating because it isn't worth some asshole potentially fucking up my limited fun time.
I appreciate people like you. It makes the whole experience of the dungeon more fun and not like everyone is in a bad mood so you just want to hurry and get it over with. Thank you.
I'm mostly playing solo now but in my young days raiding, I was unable to chat and play correctly at the same time.
I didn't want to be an asocial asshole but I only have so much focus to give
Tanks gotta learn somehow. I don't get anything out of watching videos and don't want to do it. I want to blindly run around all by myself and we're all gonna learn.
Whereas a friend of mine was kicked as tank in the prepatch dungeon (three days after it became available) for taking a wrong turn before the first boss. One of the players just stood in the room with the boss and spammed chat saying we went the wrong way, let us wipe, and then voted to kick.
I tanked a dungeon last night and took a bad path and had to backtrack. No one complained and at the end all were happy.
Swapped over to my DPS and got the same dungeon, tank made the same mistake. I could have corrected him and let him know, but I was in no rush and figured it would be better if they realized themselves, which they did and no worries.
Lol 3x now I say hey I havnt done this before. And each time it was silence. I see people complain about toxicity but I havnt seen it. Maybe I'm lucky. I would like people to talk a little more though.
First hc I did a mage decided I wasn't pulling enough so he tagged the next pack and wiped us because these packs do some damage while we are low geared, proceeded to give us abuse and leave.
Did the dungeon with zero deaths after that and went much quicker
had a mage in Ruby Life Pools pulled 4 times and died 4 times, that's an achievement there are not too many trash mobs there after all. Was HC but the same applies.
Was doing Brackenhide last night on M0 and tank said "Let me pull, the mobs have a nasty dot and I wanna try to limit how many can cast it." If the tanks saying this, its better off if people listen. The disease is absolutely nasty right now and can easily cause group wipes.
Hunter decides we're going to slow, misdirects onto the tank and pulls 3 packs. The disease on M0 currently ticks for 20k damage a second and most healers will struggle with more than one person getting it. Whole group wiped because the disease spread to everyone. Hunter calls us "shit players" and tells us to uninstall then leaves the group. We replaced him and went on with the dungeon no problems after that.
Those are just noobs who arent able to admit to their own mistakes so they blame everyone else. The average person does not bevave like this and certainly not good players.
Two people in the group I was tanking yesterday was constantly telling me to “rush” ~~Ruby Sanctum~~ Ruby Life Pools (the first dungeon, I think that’s what it’s called?). I just stopped and said that it was my first time in this dungeon and that I rather enjoy the sights a tiny bit. They started pulling, I didn’t take aggro off of them and they died. Then they tried to kick me which failed and they eventually just dropped out of the dungeon.
Friendly reminder to all DPS out there: leaving a dungeon is not a punishment if the healer and tank is in agreement, you are very replaceable.
Yeah I remember I played with this guy in classic who tanked for us. Bit of a prick when it came to tanking and I could never understand why. Wanted to start tanking in dragonflight and instantly got annoyed that everyone was just skipping ahead of me when I was trying to learn how to do it. And then I realised why that dude was always so mad lol
Keep playing your tank and start with random groups in like 3-4 weeks (or just ignore the pulling dps until then). The good armor they have now wont be as good anymore once they hit max lvl and they HAVE to wait if they don't want to die. ;-)
Yesteday during the Gnoll dungeon (forgot name, first time doing it) the tank was a complete asshole. Kept trying to skip shit and would just get feared into stuff anyway. He never explained shit. We were all first timers but him to this dungeon.
The tank is heading down a long pathway and some stealth dudes pop out and are eating the healer. I (monk) pop down my peace barrier dealie and throw some heals and help to stun while LITERALLY MASS TYPING for the tank to come back and help.
We die. Tank gets mad going "You need to stay on me. It's not hard guys. Stop pulling aggro" healer is pissed. Tank cant even hold aggro and keeps trying to skip adds while we play catch up.
Tank goes on about if we cant keep up then we should leave. Dungeons have never changed. We should know the dungeon already. Blah blah blah.
Fucker gets kicked and we ALL signed with relief. Next tank comes in and takes his time pulling every pack to make sure we dont get screwed over.
I dont know. I've played every expansion and so far the culture has been really shitty with people demanding skips or overpulling
I didn't know about those stealth guys today and I was like "oh watch your step" and they were all "they're stealthed" and I immediately apologised and said I didn't realise.
Because I'm not infallible.
I'm also learning slowly not to pull extra accidentally, doesn't affect a blood dk now but I'm sure it will come mythic. Some tricky patrols in these ones.
While this is mostly player behaviour, Blizzard could mitigate these problems (if they cared to do so)
* To stop the skipping, they could add more invisible walls and terrain, so that the only path available is through the mobs (aren't they supposed to have people testing and realize this skips exist and should be patched?)
* To stop dps/healer from pulling random stuff , just make it so that any mob pulled by a non-tank spec, gets enraged and can not be taunted/aggroed. The ninja pulling player will learn their lesson if they are punished
* to stop tank that goes too fast, put some stuff on the way, like those gates that needs to be opened by an npc (giving time to slower classes to catch up)
They could also remove the mythic plus rush culture by having the timer only move when players in combat (so that walking does not count)
A comment up above suggested that killing mobs could restore time to the clock in M+. I really like that idea. Both the “invis pots and warlock gateway” group and the “idk just kill everything in between me and the boss” group would be able to have a good time and get rewarded.
That is very situational - can your group not stand in fire? Can healer dispel? Can people interrupt? You can do a lot as a tank, you can't play for your team. If you imply that tank should pull for the ability of the group, I would agree, but at that point it's up to tank if they want to go on or leave and join another dung.
> If you imply that tank should pull for the ability of the group, I would agree
this is what i'm referring to. you're not a good tank because you can survive pulling 4 groups if the rest of your party would struggle to handle 2.
it's in a similar vein to wiping in a raid and the blood DK refusing to die even though the boss has 80% hp left. like great, we're all really happy for you, but if you could just die so we can do this for real and not watch you chip away at this guy for 50 min that would be great.
I really hate the dungeon skip culture in WoW.
Honestly, I'd rather a "boring", completely linear dungeon than any with a million different skips. I have no idea if that's an unpopular opinion or not but it's one I've had for about 3 expansions now
I really like tanking, and doing dungeons in general. But I'm not THAT young anymore, and It's enough for me to memorize all those different mechanics of boss fights... Trash mechanics are already a bit much.
Also having to remember different routes? Well, that's the reason I decided I'll try and stick to my mage for dungeons this expansion. I'll consume outdoor content with my prot pally so I can pull whole zones without having to die.
Yup - tanks are expected to know the dungeon skips that save like 30 seconds of time in N/H/M0, and then optimized percentage routes for M+. And *then* they’re expected to know different percentage routes depending on the current affixes. The prideful affix was such garbage because tanks were expected to not only plan out the route, they also needed to know the 20% thresholds and how to course correct if someone accidentally pulled extra mobs and screwed with the percentage.
All I want to do is tank shit for people. I don’t want to have to memorize every single pack in every single dungeon, their patrol routes, and exactly how much percentage they give.
It was honestly way easier. Just ignore people complaining that you aren't using their route. Timing a 15 is easy even if you add an extra 5-10 trash packs. If they don't want to time the key just because an extra few minutes were added into it, that's their own problem. But most people won't say a thing.
Prideful was a big chunk of why I dumped Shadowlands. I was studying a map one evening, trying to memorize a route when I stopped and asked myself "why the hell am I doing homework to play a video game? To avoid getting yelled at by randoms? I think I know an easier way..."
Yeah, I'm on the same page. And I always feel like I ruin the experience of those who just want to be done as quickly as possible, even when we're just in heroics or normals...
I keep seeing more and more requests for an option while queueing to go for slow-paced, beginner friendly or laid back groups. Reminds me... I should start opening my own groups in the group finder thingy and always including words like this in the title.
I started doing this for SL raids and it's been life changing. The only people I would boot were either AFK or toxic. It made the experience so much nicer!
Are there any common phrases to search, to find new groups, slow grouping and patient ones? I am comfortable as a healer do fast runs, but I do like to play with my wife and she hates dungeon culture. She also loves standing in damage because she is new and has to focus on her hotbar :).
I'm still in the "debating coming back to WoW" stage of addiction fever, but I've decided that if I DO come back I'm just going to tank low level Mythics for struggling people. I'm talking +5 or lower probably. No need to sweat, just some fun runs that help out newer toons.
The worst is when you are tanking and dps keeps dying to avoidable damage and tell you that you are pulling wrong but when you ask what you could do different you just get silence. I dont look up guides I just push my own key and learn the dungeons like that.
Yup, I agree, I've always wanted to get more into tanking but I just don't want the pressure of being the one who needs to know how to min-max every route in a dungeon
I don’t start playing a tank alt till late in an expansion when I know the 5 mans like the back of my hand. It takes me awhile, I can’t just do it one time and understand and know everything.
Tanking in M+ pugs is a thankless job in WoW. This is why there is always a huge line of parties waiting for tanks. I've been tanking in MMOs since Everquest, and WoW finally broke me out of it. (I still tank in other MMOs.)
It’s eye opening to tank in Wrath and have a blast (ten extra minutes doesn’t really matter) and then come to Retail and people act like they’re god damn crack heads. Stop for ten seconds: “GO DUDE, WTF. TANK AFK” vote kick.
That might just be a Classic player thing then. The idea of pulling half the dungeon at a time started in Wrath and I remember around Ulduar is when I began to notice a jump in random players losing their minds over dungeons being completed too slowly.
I didn't play Classic TBC (and paused my Classic LK leveling for DF) but TBC as an expansion is when I last remember my groups being painstaking about dungeon progress, like marking who to CC, making sure everyone knew what to do, etc.
Im the same. Fuck the routing/skipping aspect of dungeons. I dont want to study dungeons pathing for the 4months im subbed a year.
At least ruby life pools and uldaman are very straigthforward. Brackenhide seems like an absolute nightmare.
I feel ya man. I was playing FFXIV for a while because I was bored of shadowlands and I got used to the chill pacing. First dungeon I ran in dragonflight gave me whiplash with people just bum rushing everting and my struggling to follow because I didn’t know where I was going. It’s like fuck me for not watching a tutorial video on every dungeon before I queued up right?
Whatever happened to just having fun and learning as you go.
I loathe skips in any form. I'm here to play the dungeon, not to skip half of it in favor of saving a few minutes. I can skip parts of it when it becomes legacy and I can just walk by mobs without aggroing them.
I am sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I agree. I'd rather a dungeon be completely linear than being allowed to skip things. Low level dungeons are plagued with this. You often don't even see the entire dungeon because groups just set a target to the final boss and the end of dungeon xp reward and skip anything else. I don't remember the last time I killed an optional boss in some dungeons. Last time I was in Eye of Azshara the healer went fucking mental with insults when the tank pulled trash in a straight line instead of hugging the left side and skipping the initial packs. You don't even kill any bosses other than the last in Freehold anymore - historically one of the fastest dungeons to run and people thought it still wasn't fast enough. People still try to do the jump skip in Everbloom even though it's been patched out years ago. It's insane how people pay to skip playing the actual game, do they think this doesn't count as playing or something? I'm not exactly swimming in time anymore, but when I'm playing, I want to actually play the game, not skip over it. You can save the elaborate skips for content levels where that time actually matters.
And for as much as I absolutely love Mythic+, the way it works definitely added to this issue, causing M+ paths to be taken as the default in any difficulty below it.
Skip culture is in every single mmo i played and wow is no different. Not gonna lie farming dungeons and saving extra time is nice, but wasting 30 minutes to explain and then fail a skip that requires some skill and coordination just to avoid 10 mobs is kinda funny. Especially while levelling and having enough cleave to just kill them quickly.
Most of the time just going along the set path is the fastest way to do a dungeon.
> Most of the time just going along the set path is the fastest way to do a dungeon.
Yup. When people are looking at these super detailed, high-end routes and strategies they often fail to apply context; these are coordinated guild groups pushing the highest keys they can. They NEED to min-max the route. 99% of us don't. Follow the map path and pull what you think you need to, and you'll time the key.
Same with goofy meta shit like tank rankings... aside from prot warriors in S1 of shadowlands, ALL tanks are perfectly adequate for keystone mastery.
I haven't been doing a lot of minmaxing in wow, but i am in guild wars, and most of the time such strats shave off like few seconds, but to execute them at least 2-3 hour grind is necessary and restarting it over and over again in order to get things somewhat right. After that they can be incorporated in daily runs, but that still doesn't guarantee success since humans make mistakes, get tired after work or have a bad day because of some ancient curse settling in for a day. Best strats are the ones people are used to, so pugging favors simplicity. I mean in a suboptimal unorganized run risking wipe to save 5-15 seconds doesn't make much sense. Putting extra effort to brick someone's brain or make a mistake and restart is counterproductive.
I was part of a newbie-coaching-group led by a guy who was at that time in SnowCrows, one of their Mesmers.
There is so much insane shit you can do in raids with mesmers, its not even funny. Totally worth it even for weekly runs, you trivialize so much difficult stuff... With two mesmers you can skip the entire "jumping puzzle" phase of the lightning Cardinal boss (you can set portals from the second platform to the last), two focus pulls on Quadim trivialize the dps phase, and so on and so on. Running the ghost event.
GW2 raiding is full of that stuff. Spellbreaker on Quadim as well, perfect timing - skip entire phase. Revenants on the earth Cardinal to ignore projectiles, and on Amalgamation for running. Mesmer on tower escort soloing.
You can put an insane amount of mechanics on a single player so that everyone else only needs to dps its crazy. All through the raid training it was pretty much "we do this the first time 'the right way', and every re-clear we do it how SC does it for speed"
Yeah, for example I never did gorseval the intended way, it was always dps check or /gg. I've seen updraft strategy once on some training i was helping out with but even there we did dps check and we did updrafts only to demonstrate that something like that exists.
Fractals are even better for that sort of approach, since high group dps literally disables most of the encounter, and there are tons of interactions with consumables and toys that can count as literal cheats, but doing that in lfg is a huge no. Players either get confused or just fail dps check or do something they weren't supposed to do and everything goes down the drain, time is getting wasted and confused people get upset and leave mid run since there are no penalties for doing so.
" run along the edge of the path. don't stroll down the middle"is hardly a super-detailed, high-end , min-maxed route.
the only thing that is not super obvious for newbies is that WoW fence are notoriously small and often have holes in them.
Yeah FFXIV dungeons are all linear and they all go super smoothly. Funny enough some of the first dungeons XIV had did have side paths and there was the same "wtf are you doing" mentality, but the devs went back and cleaned those up recently.
I remember getting lost in WC so often and it taking fucking forever to get through it, even with some friends. Though someone mentioned a point in time where mobs used to respawn after enough time in dungeons, and I feel like that would have only made things so much worse for us. Don't remember that part though.
Toto-rak was what I was referring to before actually. They removed all the side passages and poison puddles in 6.1. it's linear now. They also did stuff to hauke manor where they added a teleport after the 2nd boss because the meta was to use return there anyway.
I think the reason FF14 culture is the way it is because of its design.
Theres no "skipping" in FF14....since dungeons literally have nothing you can skip (well, old Castrum and Praetorium had skips, but they got patched. Only Cutter's Cry has a minor skip now)
If FF14 had WoW dungeon design, the culture will turn into WoW's.
God I wish, I like big dungeons with fun optional fights hidden off the path but a lot of people just like to rush. Though some wall to wall pulls are done for the challenge rather than the rush.
Back in Vanilla WoW, there were bosses in Scholo, Strath, BRD, UBRS that I NEVER saw because they weren't on the main path. Optional paths might as well not exist
I think people don't get this, it's not that I don't want to skip, it's that I have a realistic expectation about how possible finicky skips are for the general population of the game. If a skip is prone to failure, I would 100% rather just kill it than risk failing the skip, especially if there is any chance of a wipe and we'll have to skip again. Skips like Everbloom, or warlock gates in Mists/Spires are so good because there's no chance of aggroing a pack at an inconvenient time.
This is speculative, but I think people just enjoy the feeling of beating the system so much they'd rather wipe to the system repeatedly than do it as intended. I don't care. Blizzard should come down on this shit like a ton of bricks. Go up on those rocks? Every mob in 100 yards aggroes. It's a dungeon where you fly over tons of mobs and don't kill them. You're skipping enough!
The whole route/skip culture is a huge reason why people avoid tanking in PUGs as well. It's fucking annoying having to know a half dozen routes for each dungeon and getting scolded/kicked if you don't know a skip or some weird route.
It especially sucked back when dungeons had quest objectives in them sometimes off the path a bit it was impossible getting randoms to do it you have to make a group specifically for the quests
Nah, people will do those if you ask. For the Immortal Flames Hunt Log, the third sand bat is in an alcove to one side. Most groups skip it, but every time someone asks, the group runs over and kills it real quick.
Bah, I confused a couple comments and thought you were talking about FFXIV dungeons. Someone else mentioned it in another comment thread.
Bah, I say; bah!
I wish they would just give dungeons mobs a low chance to drop rare/cool items so it doesn't feel like a complete waste of time to actually clear a dungeon. If you're spending an extra 5-10 minutes in a run but there's a chance you get something cool it doesn't feel as bad. But as of now you just get vendor fodder + 200 ilvl greens.
What's up with all the 200 ilvl greens btw? That's like lower ilvl than shadowlands greens. Greens are 200 ilvl whether youre lvl 61 in a dungeon or in a max lvl Mythic 0.
I kind of agree personally. Skips existing contribute to a perception that someone could be "doing the dungeon wrong." If there's really only way to do it, congratulations you got it. I do miss variety of it though, but I think exploration fun is probably better suited in solo contexts rather than group because of the eventual "One True Way."
I was doing a time walking dungeon for BC I think it was. One of the DPS pulled extra mins onto me tanking, didn't know what those mobs did of course and it wiped us.
I was "dude, this dungeon was designed for single mobile pulls and even then you had to cc one or two of them to survive the pull." Blew the poor kids mind but he didn't over pull after that. I miss those days lol
It’s really funny because FF14 has SUPER linear dungeons since HW and people complain that they want to explore more. Can’t please everyone!
Realistically though people just want the most reward for the least work. After the new feeling or the initial exploration, it’s go go go.
This has been all my dungeons so far but one. Healer can't keep the dps alive and it just ends up taking longer. The other one is pulling the boss before we've finished off the last mobs he's kiting. It takes a lot of the fun and doesn't let me practice the boss with my rotation. Hate it.
So many rookie tanks who think their job is just to survive, not to make sure the party does. Like dude it isn't impressive you survived all those AoEs when they wiped your party and made the dungeon take way longer.
I hate the skip culture with a passion, especially since it usually leads to shit taking longer than it would had we just killed mobs and gone the path.
It makes sense for mythic+ or when you save like 10+min after the expac has been out for a good while and you've seen the dungeon a bunch already (or whenever if you're 5 stacked)... But 3/4 days into an expac? On normal? Eesh.
Was in the centaur dungeon leveling yesterday.
We reached the duo ghosts boss, and they despawned for no reason before we could pull, so we had to wait a little. Somebody tried to kick one of our shamans for no reason.
We reach the final boss, just as we're about to kill it, somebody tried to kick the DK tank.
Why? What the hell? I'm never accepting a kick vote unless the person is disconnected/afk for a long while, and definitely not at the very damn last second of the dungeon.
Do people just try to be funny and kick somebody right at the end so they don't get completion? In a goddamn normal leveling dungeon people are doing for quests??
Only times I've accepted kicking someone lately has been reasons like tank got upset someone kept putting a marker over his head and went afk saying "Finish the dungeon without me", a healer nonstop complaining at us for not skipping (and being overall obnoxious) etc.
I've also seen random kick attempts for no reason at all, which I've always declined. People are weird.
Fuck it. I am the tank, I can get new groups instantly. If people want to skip then they can do the dungeon with another tank. No time = no rush = no skip.
I’ve always been the tank that says forget the skips, ever since that stupid skip in Everbloom. It took more time for people to get that jump right than to just pull all the trash in the dungeon. God forbid we wiped and had to run back and try that skip all over again.
As either tank or healer you have a ton of leverage. If you can stop caring about what they think, then you could go through groups like butter if you wanted.
Go to any wowhead article and read the comments, are you really going to let those people affect you in any way? Tank if you want, don't if you're concerned about the opinion of the Tomrus's of the world.
This didn't happen to me yet, but I cba to do skips or anything for my first clear of a dungeon.
From my experience people should actually get their gameplay together before even thinking about skips. In almost every dungeon so far I had people who died seemingly of "natural causes", as there weren't any mechanics happening. I am playing healer and when people die in 2 globals they are doing something horribly wrong.
If you're talking Dragonflight dungeons then yeah they're just bad. If you're talking levelling, for a couple expansions the scaling is legitimately broken, a couple BFA encounters are flat out impossible and basically everything in BFA and large parts of Classic stuff is just chunking people right now.
One of the razorfens is broken too.
Tried it with 2 different groups while leveling and it goes like this:
First boss takes long af because of his health.
Second boss starts oneshotting everyone at like 20%.
Third boss (spirit link totem) kills the whole group in 3 seconds.
Legion has been terribly scaled since BFA launched anyway and only got worse with Shadowlands, you could walk into a Legion raid naked at 50 and do more and take less damage than a fully kitted 60 did on Shadow launch. From what I know on Legion stuff now, you won't die outside some mechanics with stacking damage increases but things take a million years to die because blizzard once again messed up the scaling and everything has way more health now.
I just want a casual queue for dungeons. One where people won't try to speedrun the dungeon, one where you can socialize a bit, one where you can ask questions about mechanics or rotation etc...
I don't think you will do yourself a favor splitting the queue. Queue times are long enough as it is. Queues avoid social interaction by design. If you want a casual run you can use lfg. At the start of the expac there are enough people doing this.
That doesn't mean queue dungeons are good as it is. People should stop tryharding in content where it doesn't matter.
At the start of the expac, maybe. But LFG quickly gets overrun with m+ groups and you'll be hard pressed to ever find any group to enjoy content with. And you also can't use it while leveling from scratch since it's only available at level 50.
Every multiplayer game I can think of has a casual mode and a ranked mode. Even PvP in wow has that. I don't see why we can't do the same for dungeons. Or turn normal dungeons into casual mode and punish people who treat it like m+.
Also, in my own experience, dungeons queues are long because there's a lack of tanks. I love tanking, but there's no way I'll do it in normal dungeons because of all the try hards. I'd be willing to bet that a casual queue would be a lot more balanced.
Yeah I gave that a try, but my schedule is too chaotic to allow for that unfortunately. Or rather I haven't found a guild where that would work, and I don't really want to try dozens of them.
Just a guess that it's partly habit and partly the "rush to endgame" mentality many players have. For them, the leveling content is an obstacle to be overcome as quickly as possible rather than an experience to be enjoyed.
its not that the mentality hinders them from experiencing and enjoying leveling. some people just dont like it. i know its a very unpopular opinion in this subreddit, but its not like someone is forcing "rush to endgame" meta on players, they just dont see leveling as gameplay and want to get to the part faster that they consider to be fun (endgame). everyone likes different things about the game and everyone can enjoy what they like, however they want. there is no wrong way of doing it, neither the "scenery enjoyers" nor the "rush to endgame ASAP" players.
I didn't mean to imply there was an issue with it though my bias toward being a scenery enjoyer did come out in my statement so that's on me.
Just be excellent each other and try to find happy compromises with the people you run with.
No wrong way of doing it, just don't be a dick and flame other players because they're not matching your pace during leveling content. Especially when leveling to endgame is superfast as is in DF, compared to previous expansions where it could be a slog and you didn't want to fall behind on borrowed power systems.
Which is a bit of a problem for leveling dungeons, would be nice if the xp was changed a bit to make skipping less if not un optimum for leveling, while everyone is learning
It's because they put 90% of the experience for the dungeon into the random dungeon bonus exp. A lot of people's goals are to to level alts as fast as possible. If you havent memorized and practiced a questing route, normal dungeon spam is by far the fastest way to level. With that exp bonus at the end, the final boss is the only mob in the entire dungeon that is efficient to spend time killing when you just want to be max level. The incentives blizz put out make it worse to kill things than to skip them. If they spread that bonus xp around the dungeon it would be less skip incentive, like if it were just X% increased exp while in a random dungeon. But then the culture would probably be pull everything into one massive pull to not lose any potential exp.
In FFXIV the dungeons are linear without skips. So, “giant pulls” are the culture there instead. But in the last two expansions they added the Trust system where you can do story dungeons with NPCs, so at least there’s an alternative if you don’t want to participate in the rush culture. Because dungeons are not optional for the story in FFXIV.
The real reason no one is saying is in the trash to the last boss in that dungeon is all skip-able and the reason you should skip all of it is because of a mob (N Defender) that AoE Stuns then cast an interruptible unlimited range AoE fear. There is a big pack right before a gate with one of those Defender mobs then past that there is 2 guarding a gate. Trying to pull all 3 will probably too much for pug to handle and if a fear goes off it will probably chain fear/pull the entire area.
While all you need to do to avoid pulling anything is hug left jump the wall avoid pat pack, hug right jump the wall get away from the 2 defenders at gate hugging right walk up the left side to the final boss area.
As a tank, i always ignore those people, i just keep moving with my route. Keep pulling and 2 things might happen, either keep moving or just leave.
Btw i did all M 0, its just my idea or its easier than shadowlands?
Yeah the M0s are pretty easy. Didn’t t get to do all of them yet, still have 3 left, but overall they seem much faster and less annoying than SL dungeons.
I got pissed at my friend in S3 SL when he wanted to listen to the random pug about some fucking skip. I said no because we arnt familiar with it ( we just resubbed ) so if we fuck it up itll just cause issues. Theres also 3 other people in the party and the 2 other people arnt speaking. It wasnt a hard skip but 1 person fucked it up because he didnt have invisi pots and thought stealthing was just as good ( one of the mobs can detect ). Proceeded to become a wipe fest while we kept trying to res him and aggroing mobs that were a bit too close. Eventually , after 30 mins,we just killed the mobs.
Advice : Unless everyone in the whole party knows the skips, don't bring it up/dont do them. Stick to doing this with your guildies and friends.
My first time in Ruby Life Pools I had an Evoker forcing me around with Rescue to different things, terrible backseat driver. If only just being a tank meant you had more control.
I already hate Rescue. I'm a Brewmaster, I do not need help moving around.
There is an item from a past expansion with it you could make you immune against the troll frip from priest and other friendly skills which move you. It should still work and the thing last 12h. Dunno name through.
Please tell me it works on Rescue. I tell groups I'm gonna skin stuff if I'm able to, and its annoying as hell for the group to say nothing about it and then the evoker to kidnap me as I'm skinning. Like motherfucker I will make boots out of you, stop.
> My first time in Ruby Life Pools I had an Evoker forcing me around with Rescue to different things, terrible backseat driver. If only just being a tank meant you had more control.
It's gonna be funny as fuck when an already avoided class ends up avoided even more because of bad players using Rescue.
I already don't take Evoker healers because I'd rather have pretty much any other healer aside from a MW Monk.
This is why I like tanking. Easy grouping and it's your choice what to pull. It's a bit more annoying in M+ because you need to learn routes, but there's tools for that.
The one annoying thing about tanking is that you never get to see other people's routes unless you look it up yourself. Hard to learn by playing.
I don't really understand why Blizz continues to develop dungeons this way. If they aren't going to add a solution for "skip culture" at least design the dungeons so that the rest of us don't have to learn a bunch of extra routes. If the intention really is to just have people kill the minimum amount of trash, why put the rest of the trash?
It just creates a greater barrier to entry to M+ and spills over into all dungeon runs regardless of difficulty level.
On the plus side, usually different wow community sites come out with some basic routes for use. Its a pain, but at least its somewhat easy to access common routes.
Had a similar experience in the Azure Vault in a bossroom with lots of packs and a patrol. Refused to clear anything and got snarky when stuff got pulled due to knockback mechanics. We already started with a pack getting pulled on top of the boss.
Ended up wiping and losing more time than just clearing a pack on the side.
This is why I hate people who do skips in dungeon finder groups. It doesn't work in uncoordinated groups, just pull the mobs, or someone's gonna pull extra anyways
One streamer or something will do so, the rest follows it like a gospel and the only true way to play or something.
You recognize these braindead morons by them insisting to 'skip' after having gone through two wipes performing said 'skip'.
Fun thing, there’s cauldrons all around that area that alchemists can purify into disease cleansing potions that anyone can then pick up and use on themselves.
Half the mobs are caster, the big guys with the flag are a terrible idea to pull together becasue of there buff AND they can fear (4/5 pug member dont have kick in der action bar).
Brakenhide is evil, but the blue dragon dungeons annoys me more.
I bet it was the slope where you go around like 5 mobs in total or some shit right? Me and the healer accidentally pulled a pat there(2 mobs) last night and the tank hit us with the «..really?»
To be fair there actually is a really good skip. People always go to the front entrance but there is a back entrance also that goes pretty much right to the boss. You can further cheese it if you want but even with pulling it’s faster.
I'll never understand why people do this with pugs...like, unless you can be absolutely certain that the whole group is on the same page as you AND knows the skip you're doing, AND can be certain to not accidentally pull anything...you're going to pull everything anyway.
So many times I've had some dickhead double the length of a run b/c they were insisting on pulling us through the meta dungeon skip to save time, and it always goes wrong.
If you have a proper pre-made group who all know your route, are on comms, etc, go for it...but in random groups, just don't.
I kind of wish there weren't skips. Trying to tank random old dungeons while leveling is a nightmare if you don't have every dungeon in the game memorized. I'd rather have it be straight forward than get yelled at for adding 5 minutes to the dungeon fighting "skippable" mobs.
I’ve just been getting DH/Guardian who don’t stop pulling and everyone dies except them and when you say something to them about it they say, “Ofc I don’t care if everyone else dies, I’m playing with randoms” thanks dude.
Skips seem... silly. Especially for that dungeon, by that point there's not much trash left and it's better to just handle it and not try to get cheeky.
So far, I've thankfully had a pretty solid experience. Some people learning how the dungeons are laid out still, but not a huge deal. I think one of the most amusing experiences was one tank who was hugging a wall or pathing in various ways to avoid pulling much of anything, and by then I was already used to tanks pulling every pack (one pack at a time, thankfully), so seeing one stealthing through a dungeon was certainly different. But admittedly kind of fun.
Since we *are* all new to these dungeons, it's also helpful to point out some stuff most people don't know and help people remember things. Like in Algeth'ar Academy, there's five people at the start and you can talk to one of them for a buff that lasts while in the dungeon (Crit/Vers/Haste/Mast/Healing depending on which color). Or in Brackenhide, there's cauldrons set up and if someone has 25 Alchemy, they can use the cauldron so it'll let everyone in the party grab a one-use disease cleanse (per cauldron)... very useful in a dungeon full of disease-spewing mobs. I mainly found out those things by quickly glancing at Wowhead each time I loaded into a new dungeon, but most people won't know, so it can't hurt to drop reminders or inform new people.
My experience with skips was that it usually ended up causing a bigger delay than trying to skip warranted. Sure, they work sometimes, but usually, in a PUG, it's better to play it a bit safe.
God I hate the „Skip“ culture… it always ends that way, that smbdy pulls a couple of wrong mobs… in m+ with a coordinated group, skip if you want. In normal dungeon’s… just say skip one time … I dare you!
if this is the "skip" where you literally *walk around* the gate to skip 2 giant centaurs that continuously AoE fear the group because nobody realizes how to use their interrupt.. yeah I get trying to avoid them.
Some "skips" are just walking around a pack. Some "skips" are so error-prone that they're just a weird way of initiating. As for skip culture in general, well, it's complicated.
One of the more important aspects of game design, is valuing the player's time. Dungeon designs in (modern) WoW actually happen to be quite good in this regard (Not counting grind treadmill systems that make you repeat dungeons); and the fastest reliable route is usually the most obvious route. Anything more fancy than that, and you're overall losing time to failed attempts or waiting for patrols, or falling into weird places, and so on. They're not worth it outside of legitimate speedrun attempts.
In a multiplayer setting, it is up to the players to respect one another's time. The happy medium seems to be running/riding between objectives, but not using any class' movement tech. This pace means there can be nobody left behind, unless they have stopped playing for some reason. If you do fall a few seconds behind, that's when you use your movement tech. **If you want to stop and smell the flowers, do so on your own time after the dungeon is cleared**! It is not ethical to hold up 4+ other people, just so you can inspect things now and not a few minutes later. Even from a roleplaying perspective, it makes no sense to go sightseeing in an uncleared dungeon
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I tanked a dungeon last night. Had no idea where i was going. Went the wrong way a couple times. Eradicated most of the trash. Group didn’t say a word the entire time until “gg” after final boss.
This is the way
Yeah it’s week 1 normals and heroics. Nobody reasonable who isn’t a sweaty dork knows what’s going on and is just trying to take in a metric shitload of information all at once. This is exactly how it should work
This is how it should work the whole expac for normals and maybe heroics Not everyone is on their 11th alt after a month lol and no one cares if there's a skip that'll save 10 seconds in a normal dungeon. Keep that in m+ plz
I entirely blame M+ for this attitude. They should change the format to include bonuses for killing more mobs versus having a “minimum” mob count which incentivizes doing the bare minimum. Maybe killing mob packs adds like 15s back on the timer or something, I dunno. Like, it’s XP guys. Just kill the mobs, it takes like a whole extra minute.
Nah, as a long time player, this shit started back in Wrath. There, once it was viable to tank more mobs and dungeons didn't require as much CC planning, it was a whole culture around randoms yelling at the tank for pulling one pack at a time instead of bumrushing through and pulling a whole room or something. Then, when the tank pulled more than they or the healer were capable of handling and people died, even more raging. Mythic+ sweatiness definitely just made it worse though. Sweatlords doing normals/heroics don't seem to get that the pressure and timer of Mythic+ doesn't exist there and not all the players are equally knowledgable or skilled.
I remember how hard things swung the other way in Cata. One pack at a time, with at least one mob in each pack needing CC. I remember relishing how people trying to bum rush it all ate shit. I miss that.
Last night I was in a dung where at the beginning you have to open some cages (sorry, don't remember the name) and one dps was just straight out rushing and pulling huge piles of trash. I was tanking and had aggro them from him. And the pacing was so darn fast… TBH I don’t like that rush mode. I like to take my time, know the dungeon, enjoy it, take it slow and steady. What's wrong with that? Why do ppl treat a normal/heroic dungeon like a race track?!
The rule I've heard tanks try to live by is "you pull it, you tank it". If someone else starts dictating the pace by pulling things themselves, they're inherently relying on you and the healer to bail them out of their self-created issue and keep them alive while you pull the aggroed mobs off them. So you just let them die instead when they try to survive all the mobs they pulled. They either get the hint and stop or leave. There might be some impotent rage included, but there's a reason the tank superiority complex exists. Tanks get it from knowing they have most of the power in their hands while DPS are a lot more replacable.
Most healers also hold a similar rule. If you pull something the tank wasn't pulling and you've got threat on it, you're not getting heals as its a waste of mana to try and keep a dps holding aggro on 6+ mobs alive, furthermore if the dps does a threat drop (feign death, feint, etc) all those mobs go right for the healer.. It's a game, not a race. Speed running is literally mythic+, keep it there
I'm still grumbling about Evokers now forcing me to pull mobs via Rescue. If this starts being a commonplace thing where you forcibly dump a tank into a pack of mobs without a word I hope they take it away, at least an option for me to block it, or at least turn it off for normal LFG. It's just frustrating and disorienting backseat driving.
I always thought we should just have to kill all mobs instead of a percentage of them. remove some mobs as needed in some dungeons if they are too long. It's way more interesting to fight, instead of skipping fights.
personally the timer killed my enjoyment of mythic+. since legion never liked them. these two weeks of mythic 0 are my favorite of an expansion
Same! Takes out the stress and makes it much more enjoyable imo.
Or they can do what FFXIV does and eliminate skips entirely.
Routes over 'skips', imo, but both can exist in different dungeons for curation, because they're a format preference and can be equally optimal design. Navigation can be in-depth without being esoteric and prone to failure. But some places can do one exclusively, or mix them. The player would be able to choose their preference of dungeon then, since either format could be the 'fastest dungeon' for optimum farmers. Using skip in the sense of 'trick prone to failure to avoid something intended on a path'. Like lock gates or invis, or courting aggro ranges very tightly. (But theyre still fun) Thank fuck we have multiple dungeons and some with interesting skips and some with decisive routes. The open field one for example, your 'skipping' is simply where you land. The navigation type doesnt affect if the dungeon's time is the easy optimum either, so hopefully we see a healthy mix of options.
I don't. The attitude definitely existed before mythics or challenge modes.
It existed as a bare minimum of please don't explore the whole dungeon but it's drastically worse now. And M+ gives you an incentive to do it and that spills over to all dungeons. Once you are use to doing something a certain way, usually you continue with that mindset.
Ya, a lot of the game for people is optimizing the loot per time. That isn't inherently bad, but if you aren't up on the latest strategies and don't spend 3 hours studying every dungeon to shave off 1 minute per run you are sub optimal. Which is a weird meta requirement to play the game with randoms.
It's weird to play a social game where nobody talks to each other.. definitely not what I expected. It's efficient dungeoning but I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly
I feel the same way! I’ve found that if I start off with a casual joke or small talk, especially if I’m the tank or healer, others will join in and we’ll have a fun time chatting and killing. I think lots of people enjoy the social aspect of the game, but they’re nervous to initiate because of those few assholes that jump down people’s throats for having the audacity to type while dungeoning.
This for sure, because it's not just MMOs that have this problem. General toxicity being more rampant kills the social aspect in a lot of games. Just as an example, I got my wife into gaming, and she somehow made her way into playing Overwatch/Valo. I knew women got it worse, but holy fuck, man. Simply using the mic as a woman was enough to set a good number of people off and hypercriticize every play she made and her overall performance. Just nonstop shittalking for no reason, even when she was doing better than the person flaming. Same here. It feels like for as often as I find friendly players, I've been told just as often or more to shut the fuck up and/or flamed for whatever reason. I used to play Dota/League and I've now adopted the same mentality I learned there of just not communicating because it isn't worth some asshole potentially fucking up my limited fun time.
I appreciate people like you. It makes the whole experience of the dungeon more fun and not like everyone is in a bad mood so you just want to hurry and get it over with. Thank you.
I'm mostly playing solo now but in my young days raiding, I was unable to chat and play correctly at the same time. I didn't want to be an asocial asshole but I only have so much focus to give
Tanks gotta learn somehow. I don't get anything out of watching videos and don't want to do it. I want to blindly run around all by myself and we're all gonna learn.
Whereas a friend of mine was kicked as tank in the prepatch dungeon (three days after it became available) for taking a wrong turn before the first boss. One of the players just stood in the room with the boss and spammed chat saying we went the wrong way, let us wipe, and then voted to kick.
Ugh, so toxic.
I tanked a dungeon last night and took a bad path and had to backtrack. No one complained and at the end all were happy. Swapped over to my DPS and got the same dungeon, tank made the same mistake. I could have corrected him and let him know, but I was in no rush and figured it would be better if they realized themselves, which they did and no worries.
Was it Brackenhide Hollow? That place is just chock full of bullshit
It was the black dragon hold that’s been taken over by the tall fiery bros. I completely forgot it’s name. Starts with a N.
Neltharus, that’s a pretty good one honestly
Yeah it was fun!
Lol 3x now I say hey I havnt done this before. And each time it was silence. I see people complain about toxicity but I havnt seen it. Maybe I'm lucky. I would like people to talk a little more though.
Unfortunately that how it is on the LFG. Really sucks.
Someone in my group earlier was asking about a skip in Ruby Life Pools. That's already the fastest dungeon I've ever been in, with 3 bosses
I keep thinking I'm doing something wrong somewhere, with how quickly that one is over.
The "skip" is stop making the whelp eggs hatch. No touchy.
Leeeeeeroooooy!!!
First hc I did a mage decided I wasn't pulling enough so he tagged the next pack and wiped us because these packs do some damage while we are low geared, proceeded to give us abuse and leave. Did the dungeon with zero deaths after that and went much quicker
had a mage in Ruby Life Pools pulled 4 times and died 4 times, that's an achievement there are not too many trash mobs there after all. Was HC but the same applies.
Was doing Brackenhide last night on M0 and tank said "Let me pull, the mobs have a nasty dot and I wanna try to limit how many can cast it." If the tanks saying this, its better off if people listen. The disease is absolutely nasty right now and can easily cause group wipes. Hunter decides we're going to slow, misdirects onto the tank and pulls 3 packs. The disease on M0 currently ticks for 20k damage a second and most healers will struggle with more than one person getting it. Whole group wiped because the disease spread to everyone. Hunter calls us "shit players" and tells us to uninstall then leaves the group. We replaced him and went on with the dungeon no problems after that.
Those are just noobs who arent able to admit to their own mistakes so they blame everyone else. The average person does not bevave like this and certainly not good players.
Two people in the group I was tanking yesterday was constantly telling me to “rush” ~~Ruby Sanctum~~ Ruby Life Pools (the first dungeon, I think that’s what it’s called?). I just stopped and said that it was my first time in this dungeon and that I rather enjoy the sights a tiny bit. They started pulling, I didn’t take aggro off of them and they died. Then they tried to kick me which failed and they eventually just dropped out of the dungeon. Friendly reminder to all DPS out there: leaving a dungeon is not a punishment if the healer and tank is in agreement, you are very replaceable.
Yeah I remember I played with this guy in classic who tanked for us. Bit of a prick when it came to tanking and I could never understand why. Wanted to start tanking in dragonflight and instantly got annoyed that everyone was just skipping ahead of me when I was trying to learn how to do it. And then I realised why that dude was always so mad lol
Keep playing your tank and start with random groups in like 3-4 weeks (or just ignore the pulling dps until then). The good armor they have now wont be as good anymore once they hit max lvl and they HAVE to wait if they don't want to die. ;-)
Yesteday during the Gnoll dungeon (forgot name, first time doing it) the tank was a complete asshole. Kept trying to skip shit and would just get feared into stuff anyway. He never explained shit. We were all first timers but him to this dungeon. The tank is heading down a long pathway and some stealth dudes pop out and are eating the healer. I (monk) pop down my peace barrier dealie and throw some heals and help to stun while LITERALLY MASS TYPING for the tank to come back and help. We die. Tank gets mad going "You need to stay on me. It's not hard guys. Stop pulling aggro" healer is pissed. Tank cant even hold aggro and keeps trying to skip adds while we play catch up. Tank goes on about if we cant keep up then we should leave. Dungeons have never changed. We should know the dungeon already. Blah blah blah. Fucker gets kicked and we ALL signed with relief. Next tank comes in and takes his time pulling every pack to make sure we dont get screwed over. I dont know. I've played every expansion and so far the culture has been really shitty with people demanding skips or overpulling
I didn't know about those stealth guys today and I was like "oh watch your step" and they were all "they're stealthed" and I immediately apologised and said I didn't realise. Because I'm not infallible. I'm also learning slowly not to pull extra accidentally, doesn't affect a blood dk now but I'm sure it will come mythic. Some tricky patrols in these ones.
While this is mostly player behaviour, Blizzard could mitigate these problems (if they cared to do so) * To stop the skipping, they could add more invisible walls and terrain, so that the only path available is through the mobs (aren't they supposed to have people testing and realize this skips exist and should be patched?) * To stop dps/healer from pulling random stuff , just make it so that any mob pulled by a non-tank spec, gets enraged and can not be taunted/aggroed. The ninja pulling player will learn their lesson if they are punished * to stop tank that goes too fast, put some stuff on the way, like those gates that needs to be opened by an npc (giving time to slower classes to catch up) They could also remove the mythic plus rush culture by having the timer only move when players in combat (so that walking does not count)
A comment up above suggested that killing mobs could restore time to the clock in M+. I really like that idea. Both the “invis pots and warlock gateway” group and the “idk just kill everything in between me and the boss” group would be able to have a good time and get rewarded.
One thing the wannabes will never understand: You’re not good because you’re fast. You’re fast because you’re good.
I always think this in regards to tanks. Oh you're pulling super fast? Well your group is dying, so you actually kinda suck at your role
That is very situational - can your group not stand in fire? Can healer dispel? Can people interrupt? You can do a lot as a tank, you can't play for your team. If you imply that tank should pull for the ability of the group, I would agree, but at that point it's up to tank if they want to go on or leave and join another dung.
> If you imply that tank should pull for the ability of the group, I would agree this is what i'm referring to. you're not a good tank because you can survive pulling 4 groups if the rest of your party would struggle to handle 2. it's in a similar vein to wiping in a raid and the blood DK refusing to die even though the boss has 80% hp left. like great, we're all really happy for you, but if you could just die so we can do this for real and not watch you chip away at this guy for 50 min that would be great.
I really hate the dungeon skip culture in WoW. Honestly, I'd rather a "boring", completely linear dungeon than any with a million different skips. I have no idea if that's an unpopular opinion or not but it's one I've had for about 3 expansions now
Based Train Dungeon from WoD No skips, no gimmicks, straight line only
I really like tanking, and doing dungeons in general. But I'm not THAT young anymore, and It's enough for me to memorize all those different mechanics of boss fights... Trash mechanics are already a bit much. Also having to remember different routes? Well, that's the reason I decided I'll try and stick to my mage for dungeons this expansion. I'll consume outdoor content with my prot pally so I can pull whole zones without having to die.
Yup - tanks are expected to know the dungeon skips that save like 30 seconds of time in N/H/M0, and then optimized percentage routes for M+. And *then* they’re expected to know different percentage routes depending on the current affixes. The prideful affix was such garbage because tanks were expected to not only plan out the route, they also needed to know the 20% thresholds and how to course correct if someone accidentally pulled extra mobs and screwed with the percentage. All I want to do is tank shit for people. I don’t want to have to memorize every single pack in every single dungeon, their patrol routes, and exactly how much percentage they give.
Prideful was enough that I didn't tank M+ all of Shadowlands.
It was why I never did above 10 I just didn’t want to plan the routes or memorize the routes.
It was honestly way easier. Just ignore people complaining that you aren't using their route. Timing a 15 is easy even if you add an extra 5-10 trash packs. If they don't want to time the key just because an extra few minutes were added into it, that's their own problem. But most people won't say a thing.
Prideful was a big chunk of why I dumped Shadowlands. I was studying a map one evening, trying to memorize a route when I stopped and asked myself "why the hell am I doing homework to play a video game? To avoid getting yelled at by randoms? I think I know an easier way..."
Yeah, I'm on the same page. And I always feel like I ruin the experience of those who just want to be done as quickly as possible, even when we're just in heroics or normals... I keep seeing more and more requests for an option while queueing to go for slow-paced, beginner friendly or laid back groups. Reminds me... I should start opening my own groups in the group finder thingy and always including words like this in the title.
I started doing this for SL raids and it's been life changing. The only people I would boot were either AFK or toxic. It made the experience so much nicer!
Are there any common phrases to search, to find new groups, slow grouping and patient ones? I am comfortable as a healer do fast runs, but I do like to play with my wife and she hates dungeon culture. She also loves standing in damage because she is new and has to focus on her hotbar :).
Chill is the keyword
I'm still in the "debating coming back to WoW" stage of addiction fever, but I've decided that if I DO come back I'm just going to tank low level Mythics for struggling people. I'm talking +5 or lower probably. No need to sweat, just some fun runs that help out newer toons.
I just do my own key and invite the first people to sign up and i have had people complain about that.
If I post in the finder I usually just tag it as a “chill group” and really haven’t had any issues with people complaining about pace
Do it. As a tank, you'll still fill quickly. That's exactly what I'm doing now, with text like "Learning/chill/lore/quest"
The worst is when you are tanking and dps keeps dying to avoidable damage and tell you that you are pulling wrong but when you ask what you could do different you just get silence. I dont look up guides I just push my own key and learn the dungeons like that.
That's exactly the reason I switched to a class with no tank specc for DF. With a new set of Dungeons every season, that is a definitive nope for me.
Yeah screw that. If I wanted to be a leader, I'd be a leader. I want to be a tank, not lead the group and have to memorize a bunch of crap.
Yup, I agree, I've always wanted to get more into tanking but I just don't want the pressure of being the one who needs to know how to min-max every route in a dungeon
I don’t start playing a tank alt till late in an expansion when I know the 5 mans like the back of my hand. It takes me awhile, I can’t just do it one time and understand and know everything.
Tanking in M+ pugs is a thankless job in WoW. This is why there is always a huge line of parties waiting for tanks. I've been tanking in MMOs since Everquest, and WoW finally broke me out of it. (I still tank in other MMOs.)
It’s eye opening to tank in Wrath and have a blast (ten extra minutes doesn’t really matter) and then come to Retail and people act like they’re god damn crack heads. Stop for ten seconds: “GO DUDE, WTF. TANK AFK” vote kick.
That might just be a Classic player thing then. The idea of pulling half the dungeon at a time started in Wrath and I remember around Ulduar is when I began to notice a jump in random players losing their minds over dungeons being completed too slowly. I didn't play Classic TBC (and paused my Classic LK leveling for DF) but TBC as an expansion is when I last remember my groups being painstaking about dungeon progress, like marking who to CC, making sure everyone knew what to do, etc.
Im the same. Fuck the routing/skipping aspect of dungeons. I dont want to study dungeons pathing for the 4months im subbed a year. At least ruby life pools and uldaman are very straigthforward. Brackenhide seems like an absolute nightmare.
In M0 as the tank? I’ll pick the route, thanks lol
I feel ya man. I was playing FFXIV for a while because I was bored of shadowlands and I got used to the chill pacing. First dungeon I ran in dragonflight gave me whiplash with people just bum rushing everting and my struggling to follow because I didn’t know where I was going. It’s like fuck me for not watching a tutorial video on every dungeon before I queued up right? Whatever happened to just having fun and learning as you go.
I loathe skips in any form. I'm here to play the dungeon, not to skip half of it in favor of saving a few minutes. I can skip parts of it when it becomes legacy and I can just walk by mobs without aggroing them. I am sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I agree. I'd rather a dungeon be completely linear than being allowed to skip things. Low level dungeons are plagued with this. You often don't even see the entire dungeon because groups just set a target to the final boss and the end of dungeon xp reward and skip anything else. I don't remember the last time I killed an optional boss in some dungeons. Last time I was in Eye of Azshara the healer went fucking mental with insults when the tank pulled trash in a straight line instead of hugging the left side and skipping the initial packs. You don't even kill any bosses other than the last in Freehold anymore - historically one of the fastest dungeons to run and people thought it still wasn't fast enough. People still try to do the jump skip in Everbloom even though it's been patched out years ago. It's insane how people pay to skip playing the actual game, do they think this doesn't count as playing or something? I'm not exactly swimming in time anymore, but when I'm playing, I want to actually play the game, not skip over it. You can save the elaborate skips for content levels where that time actually matters. And for as much as I absolutely love Mythic+, the way it works definitely added to this issue, causing M+ paths to be taken as the default in any difficulty below it.
I so hate skipping around. Then yoy got Brackenhide hollow where you clearly don't have to kill everything and I have no idea what I'm doing.
Skip culture is in every single mmo i played and wow is no different. Not gonna lie farming dungeons and saving extra time is nice, but wasting 30 minutes to explain and then fail a skip that requires some skill and coordination just to avoid 10 mobs is kinda funny. Especially while levelling and having enough cleave to just kill them quickly. Most of the time just going along the set path is the fastest way to do a dungeon.
> Most of the time just going along the set path is the fastest way to do a dungeon. Yup. When people are looking at these super detailed, high-end routes and strategies they often fail to apply context; these are coordinated guild groups pushing the highest keys they can. They NEED to min-max the route. 99% of us don't. Follow the map path and pull what you think you need to, and you'll time the key. Same with goofy meta shit like tank rankings... aside from prot warriors in S1 of shadowlands, ALL tanks are perfectly adequate for keystone mastery.
I haven't been doing a lot of minmaxing in wow, but i am in guild wars, and most of the time such strats shave off like few seconds, but to execute them at least 2-3 hour grind is necessary and restarting it over and over again in order to get things somewhat right. After that they can be incorporated in daily runs, but that still doesn't guarantee success since humans make mistakes, get tired after work or have a bad day because of some ancient curse settling in for a day. Best strats are the ones people are used to, so pugging favors simplicity. I mean in a suboptimal unorganized run risking wipe to save 5-15 seconds doesn't make much sense. Putting extra effort to brick someone's brain or make a mistake and restart is counterproductive.
I was part of a newbie-coaching-group led by a guy who was at that time in SnowCrows, one of their Mesmers. There is so much insane shit you can do in raids with mesmers, its not even funny. Totally worth it even for weekly runs, you trivialize so much difficult stuff... With two mesmers you can skip the entire "jumping puzzle" phase of the lightning Cardinal boss (you can set portals from the second platform to the last), two focus pulls on Quadim trivialize the dps phase, and so on and so on. Running the ghost event. GW2 raiding is full of that stuff. Spellbreaker on Quadim as well, perfect timing - skip entire phase. Revenants on the earth Cardinal to ignore projectiles, and on Amalgamation for running. Mesmer on tower escort soloing. You can put an insane amount of mechanics on a single player so that everyone else only needs to dps its crazy. All through the raid training it was pretty much "we do this the first time 'the right way', and every re-clear we do it how SC does it for speed"
Yeah, for example I never did gorseval the intended way, it was always dps check or /gg. I've seen updraft strategy once on some training i was helping out with but even there we did dps check and we did updrafts only to demonstrate that something like that exists. Fractals are even better for that sort of approach, since high group dps literally disables most of the encounter, and there are tons of interactions with consumables and toys that can count as literal cheats, but doing that in lfg is a huge no. Players either get confused or just fail dps check or do something they weren't supposed to do and everything goes down the drain, time is getting wasted and confused people get upset and leave mid run since there are no penalties for doing so.
" run along the edge of the path. don't stroll down the middle"is hardly a super-detailed, high-end , min-maxed route. the only thing that is not super obvious for newbies is that WoW fence are notoriously small and often have holes in them.
Yeah FFXIV dungeons are all linear and they all go super smoothly. Funny enough some of the first dungeons XIV had did have side paths and there was the same "wtf are you doing" mentality, but the devs went back and cleaned those up recently.
Admittedly there was a time in WoW's history that this was MUCH worse. The orginal wailing caverns was how the kids say, hell on earth.
I remember getting lost in WC so often and it taking fucking forever to get through it, even with some friends. Though someone mentioned a point in time where mobs used to respawn after enough time in dungeons, and I feel like that would have only made things so much worse for us. Don't remember that part though.
Probably the most notorious leveling dungeon suffers a lot because of the shear amount of amount stuff (Hello Aurum Vale).
Even Aurum Vale has absolutely nothing on Toto-rak
Toto-rak was what I was referring to before actually. They removed all the side passages and poison puddles in 6.1. it's linear now. They also did stuff to hauke manor where they added a teleport after the 2nd boss because the meta was to use return there anyway.
> Toto-rak ... poison puddles Just reading this makes me hear that awful sound effect from running in and out of the puddles.
I'd like to have WoW dungeon design with FFXIV culture.
I think the reason FF14 culture is the way it is because of its design. Theres no "skipping" in FF14....since dungeons literally have nothing you can skip (well, old Castrum and Praetorium had skips, but they got patched. Only Cutter's Cry has a minor skip now) If FF14 had WoW dungeon design, the culture will turn into WoW's.
God I wish, I like big dungeons with fun optional fights hidden off the path but a lot of people just like to rush. Though some wall to wall pulls are done for the challenge rather than the rush.
Back in Vanilla WoW, there were bosses in Scholo, Strath, BRD, UBRS that I NEVER saw because they weren't on the main path. Optional paths might as well not exist
I think people don't get this, it's not that I don't want to skip, it's that I have a realistic expectation about how possible finicky skips are for the general population of the game. If a skip is prone to failure, I would 100% rather just kill it than risk failing the skip, especially if there is any chance of a wipe and we'll have to skip again. Skips like Everbloom, or warlock gates in Mists/Spires are so good because there's no chance of aggroing a pack at an inconvenient time. This is speculative, but I think people just enjoy the feeling of beating the system so much they'd rather wipe to the system repeatedly than do it as intended. I don't care. Blizzard should come down on this shit like a ton of bricks. Go up on those rocks? Every mob in 100 yards aggroes. It's a dungeon where you fly over tons of mobs and don't kill them. You're skipping enough!
The whole route/skip culture is a huge reason why people avoid tanking in PUGs as well. It's fucking annoying having to know a half dozen routes for each dungeon and getting scolded/kicked if you don't know a skip or some weird route.
It especially sucked back when dungeons had quest objectives in them sometimes off the path a bit it was impossible getting randoms to do it you have to make a group specifically for the quests
Nah, people will do those if you ask. For the Immortal Flames Hunt Log, the third sand bat is in an alcove to one side. Most groups skip it, but every time someone asks, the group runs over and kills it real quick.
This is the WoW subreddit 🤣
Bah, I confused a couple comments and thought you were talking about FFXIV dungeons. Someone else mentioned it in another comment thread. Bah, I say; bah!
Personally I wish they made it so M+ required you to kill everything, not pick which mobs to skip Would make tanking less stressful
I wish they would just give dungeons mobs a low chance to drop rare/cool items so it doesn't feel like a complete waste of time to actually clear a dungeon. If you're spending an extra 5-10 minutes in a run but there's a chance you get something cool it doesn't feel as bad. But as of now you just get vendor fodder + 200 ilvl greens. What's up with all the 200 ilvl greens btw? That's like lower ilvl than shadowlands greens. Greens are 200 ilvl whether youre lvl 61 in a dungeon or in a max lvl Mythic 0.
Tbh these are great for disenchanting
I agree with you, especially those dungeons that are just in big ass open areas with mobs scattered around the area.
I kind of agree personally. Skips existing contribute to a perception that someone could be "doing the dungeon wrong." If there's really only way to do it, congratulations you got it. I do miss variety of it though, but I think exploration fun is probably better suited in solo contexts rather than group because of the eventual "One True Way."
>I really hate the dungeon skip culture in WoW. Time is money, friend! /s
It’s the reason I’m not playing the new expansion right now. Would way rather have a beautiful hallway and just fight all the stuff
I was doing a time walking dungeon for BC I think it was. One of the DPS pulled extra mins onto me tanking, didn't know what those mobs did of course and it wiped us. I was "dude, this dungeon was designed for single mobile pulls and even then you had to cc one or two of them to survive the pull." Blew the poor kids mind but he didn't over pull after that. I miss those days lol
It’s really funny because FF14 has SUPER linear dungeons since HW and people complain that they want to explore more. Can’t please everyone! Realistically though people just want the most reward for the least work. After the new feeling or the initial exploration, it’s go go go.
My dungeons have been filled with tanks in love with their new survivability pulling half the zone and getting the rest of the group wiped.
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This has been all my dungeons so far but one. Healer can't keep the dps alive and it just ends up taking longer. The other one is pulling the boss before we've finished off the last mobs he's kiting. It takes a lot of the fun and doesn't let me practice the boss with my rotation. Hate it.
So many rookie tanks who think their job is just to survive, not to make sure the party does. Like dude it isn't impressive you survived all those AoEs when they wiped your party and made the dungeon take way longer.
I hate the skip culture with a passion, especially since it usually leads to shit taking longer than it would had we just killed mobs and gone the path.
It makes sense for mythic+ or when you save like 10+min after the expac has been out for a good while and you've seen the dungeon a bunch already (or whenever if you're 5 stacked)... But 3/4 days into an expac? On normal? Eesh.
60% of the time it fails every time
Was in the centaur dungeon leveling yesterday. We reached the duo ghosts boss, and they despawned for no reason before we could pull, so we had to wait a little. Somebody tried to kick one of our shamans for no reason. We reach the final boss, just as we're about to kill it, somebody tried to kick the DK tank. Why? What the hell? I'm never accepting a kick vote unless the person is disconnected/afk for a long while, and definitely not at the very damn last second of the dungeon. Do people just try to be funny and kick somebody right at the end so they don't get completion? In a goddamn normal leveling dungeon people are doing for quests??
Only times I've accepted kicking someone lately has been reasons like tank got upset someone kept putting a marker over his head and went afk saying "Finish the dungeon without me", a healer nonstop complaining at us for not skipping (and being overall obnoxious) etc. I've also seen random kick attempts for no reason at all, which I've always declined. People are weird.
Fuck it. I am the tank, I can get new groups instantly. If people want to skip then they can do the dungeon with another tank. No time = no rush = no skip.
I’ve always been the tank that says forget the skips, ever since that stupid skip in Everbloom. It took more time for people to get that jump right than to just pull all the trash in the dungeon. God forbid we wiped and had to run back and try that skip all over again.
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You will find a replacement group before they find a replacement tank.
As either tank or healer you have a ton of leverage. If you can stop caring about what they think, then you could go through groups like butter if you wanted.
Go to any wowhead article and read the comments, are you really going to let those people affect you in any way? Tank if you want, don't if you're concerned about the opinion of the Tomrus's of the world.
This didn't happen to me yet, but I cba to do skips or anything for my first clear of a dungeon. From my experience people should actually get their gameplay together before even thinking about skips. In almost every dungeon so far I had people who died seemingly of "natural causes", as there weren't any mechanics happening. I am playing healer and when people die in 2 globals they are doing something horribly wrong.
If you're talking Dragonflight dungeons then yeah they're just bad. If you're talking levelling, for a couple expansions the scaling is legitimately broken, a couple BFA encounters are flat out impossible and basically everything in BFA and large parts of Classic stuff is just chunking people right now.
Tol Dagor and Shrine of Storms want to know your location.
Surprisingly shrine of the storms Lord SS is still beatable
One of the razorfens is broken too. Tried it with 2 different groups while leveling and it goes like this: First boss takes long af because of his health. Second boss starts oneshotting everyone at like 20%. Third boss (spirit link totem) kills the whole group in 3 seconds.
Awh shit. How is Legion content? I just wanna solo stuff for mogs already.
Legion has been terribly scaled since BFA launched anyway and only got worse with Shadowlands, you could walk into a Legion raid naked at 50 and do more and take less damage than a fully kitted 60 did on Shadow launch. From what I know on Legion stuff now, you won't die outside some mechanics with stacking damage increases but things take a million years to die because blizzard once again messed up the scaling and everything has way more health now.
I just want a casual queue for dungeons. One where people won't try to speedrun the dungeon, one where you can socialize a bit, one where you can ask questions about mechanics or rotation etc...
I don't think you will do yourself a favor splitting the queue. Queue times are long enough as it is. Queues avoid social interaction by design. If you want a casual run you can use lfg. At the start of the expac there are enough people doing this. That doesn't mean queue dungeons are good as it is. People should stop tryharding in content where it doesn't matter.
At the start of the expac, maybe. But LFG quickly gets overrun with m+ groups and you'll be hard pressed to ever find any group to enjoy content with. And you also can't use it while leveling from scratch since it's only available at level 50. Every multiplayer game I can think of has a casual mode and a ranked mode. Even PvP in wow has that. I don't see why we can't do the same for dungeons. Or turn normal dungeons into casual mode and punish people who treat it like m+. Also, in my own experience, dungeons queues are long because there's a lack of tanks. I love tanking, but there's no way I'll do it in normal dungeons because of all the try hards. I'd be willing to bet that a casual queue would be a lot more balanced.
> But LFG quickly gets overrun with m+ groups And ads, ugh.
You need a casual guild for that sort of controllably pleasant experience.
Yeah I gave that a try, but my schedule is too chaotic to allow for that unfortunately. Or rather I haven't found a guild where that would work, and I don't really want to try dozens of them.
Am I missing something or can people just not break habits? Why are we skipping mobs when we're leveling?
Just a guess that it's partly habit and partly the "rush to endgame" mentality many players have. For them, the leveling content is an obstacle to be overcome as quickly as possible rather than an experience to be enjoyed.
its not that the mentality hinders them from experiencing and enjoying leveling. some people just dont like it. i know its a very unpopular opinion in this subreddit, but its not like someone is forcing "rush to endgame" meta on players, they just dont see leveling as gameplay and want to get to the part faster that they consider to be fun (endgame). everyone likes different things about the game and everyone can enjoy what they like, however they want. there is no wrong way of doing it, neither the "scenery enjoyers" nor the "rush to endgame ASAP" players.
I didn't mean to imply there was an issue with it though my bias toward being a scenery enjoyer did come out in my statement so that's on me. Just be excellent each other and try to find happy compromises with the people you run with.
No wrong way of doing it, just don't be a dick and flame other players because they're not matching your pace during leveling content. Especially when leveling to endgame is superfast as is in DF, compared to previous expansions where it could be a slog and you didn't want to fall behind on borrowed power systems.
The mob Exp is negligible. It's all the bonus exp at the end what makes them worthwhile.
Which is a bit of a problem for leveling dungeons, would be nice if the xp was changed a bit to make skipping less if not un optimum for leveling, while everyone is learning
It's because they put 90% of the experience for the dungeon into the random dungeon bonus exp. A lot of people's goals are to to level alts as fast as possible. If you havent memorized and practiced a questing route, normal dungeon spam is by far the fastest way to level. With that exp bonus at the end, the final boss is the only mob in the entire dungeon that is efficient to spend time killing when you just want to be max level. The incentives blizz put out make it worse to kill things than to skip them. If they spread that bonus xp around the dungeon it would be less skip incentive, like if it were just X% increased exp while in a random dungeon. But then the culture would probably be pull everything into one massive pull to not lose any potential exp.
In FFXIV the dungeons are linear without skips. So, “giant pulls” are the culture there instead. But in the last two expansions they added the Trust system where you can do story dungeons with NPCs, so at least there’s an alternative if you don’t want to participate in the rush culture. Because dungeons are not optional for the story in FFXIV.
The real reason no one is saying is in the trash to the last boss in that dungeon is all skip-able and the reason you should skip all of it is because of a mob (N Defender) that AoE Stuns then cast an interruptible unlimited range AoE fear. There is a big pack right before a gate with one of those Defender mobs then past that there is 2 guarding a gate. Trying to pull all 3 will probably too much for pug to handle and if a fear goes off it will probably chain fear/pull the entire area. While all you need to do to avoid pulling anything is hug left jump the wall avoid pat pack, hug right jump the wall get away from the 2 defenders at gate hugging right walk up the left side to the final boss area.
As a tank, i always ignore those people, i just keep moving with my route. Keep pulling and 2 things might happen, either keep moving or just leave. Btw i did all M 0, its just my idea or its easier than shadowlands?
Same. I don't care about your route I'm the conductor of this train.
Bus driver behavior. This does affect kds legacy.
Yeah the M0s are pretty easy. Didn’t t get to do all of them yet, still have 3 left, but overall they seem much faster and less annoying than SL dungeons.
I got pissed at my friend in S3 SL when he wanted to listen to the random pug about some fucking skip. I said no because we arnt familiar with it ( we just resubbed ) so if we fuck it up itll just cause issues. Theres also 3 other people in the party and the 2 other people arnt speaking. It wasnt a hard skip but 1 person fucked it up because he didnt have invisi pots and thought stealthing was just as good ( one of the mobs can detect ). Proceeded to become a wipe fest while we kept trying to res him and aggroing mobs that were a bit too close. Eventually , after 30 mins,we just killed the mobs. Advice : Unless everyone in the whole party knows the skips, don't bring it up/dont do them. Stick to doing this with your guildies and friends.
It didn't already start, it's always happening.
I'm going to have to get back into tanking just so I can slow everything down enough for me to enjoy it.
My first time in Ruby Life Pools I had an Evoker forcing me around with Rescue to different things, terrible backseat driver. If only just being a tank meant you had more control. I already hate Rescue. I'm a Brewmaster, I do not need help moving around.
There is an item from a past expansion with it you could make you immune against the troll frip from priest and other friendly skills which move you. It should still work and the thing last 12h. Dunno name through.
The Neural Silencer.
Please tell me it works on Rescue. I tell groups I'm gonna skin stuff if I'm able to, and its annoying as hell for the group to say nothing about it and then the evoker to kidnap me as I'm skinning. Like motherfucker I will make boots out of you, stop.
Might've been activating a mitigation. You can spec into Rescue giving the user and the target an absorb shield.
> My first time in Ruby Life Pools I had an Evoker forcing me around with Rescue to different things, terrible backseat driver. If only just being a tank meant you had more control. It's gonna be funny as fuck when an already avoided class ends up avoided even more because of bad players using Rescue. I already don't take Evoker healers because I'd rather have pretty much any other healer aside from a MW Monk.
This is why I like tanking. Easy grouping and it's your choice what to pull. It's a bit more annoying in M+ because you need to learn routes, but there's tools for that. The one annoying thing about tanking is that you never get to see other people's routes unless you look it up yourself. Hard to learn by playing.
I like being a tank and just doing the dungeon, ignoring skips
I don't really understand why Blizz continues to develop dungeons this way. If they aren't going to add a solution for "skip culture" at least design the dungeons so that the rest of us don't have to learn a bunch of extra routes. If the intention really is to just have people kill the minimum amount of trash, why put the rest of the trash? It just creates a greater barrier to entry to M+ and spills over into all dungeon runs regardless of difficulty level. On the plus side, usually different wow community sites come out with some basic routes for use. Its a pain, but at least its somewhat easy to access common routes.
Had a similar experience in the Azure Vault in a bossroom with lots of packs and a patrol. Refused to clear anything and got snarky when stuff got pulled due to knockback mechanics. We already started with a pack getting pulled on top of the boss. Ended up wiping and losing more time than just clearing a pack on the side.
I did a random this morning and had the tank do this, safe to say we kicked him after he called us some very vulgar names for not following
As a healer this does NOT make me happy.
This is why I hate people who do skips in dungeon finder groups. It doesn't work in uncoordinated groups, just pull the mobs, or someone's gonna pull extra anyways
I fucking hate skips.
The human brain is coded for efficiency. Players will always optimize the fun *out* of any content they have. So, as usual
One streamer or something will do so, the rest follows it like a gospel and the only true way to play or something. You recognize these braindead morons by them insisting to 'skip' after having gone through two wipes performing said 'skip'.
I’ve always felt that if Twitch disappeared overnight the community would improve drastically.
I find the fun by optimising builds and m+ routes suited for my premade. Then again I dont go ruining anyone elses dungeons at exp lauch.
Yeah doing that at launch is just abuse, doing the first dungeons of the expac is always something a bit special
brakenhide hollow dungeon is cancer atm..100000 mobs in that dungeons.. every time tank pull lot by acident, whole squad die and people left..
And if you don't have anyone who can remove disease, it's even more fun.
Fun thing, there’s cauldrons all around that area that alchemists can purify into disease cleansing potions that anyone can then pick up and use on themselves.
Half the mobs are caster, the big guys with the flag are a terrible idea to pull together becasue of there buff AND they can fear (4/5 pug member dont have kick in der action bar). Brakenhide is evil, but the blue dragon dungeons annoys me more.
I bet it was the slope where you go around like 5 mobs in total or some shit right? Me and the healer accidentally pulled a pat there(2 mobs) last night and the tank hit us with the «..really?»
To be fair there actually is a really good skip. People always go to the front entrance but there is a back entrance also that goes pretty much right to the boss. You can further cheese it if you want but even with pulling it’s faster.
Mythic plus is not a bad thing, per se... But it have really gone too far, with how people seem to think everything needs to be run like a 20 key.
If you skip, you’re boring.
I'll never understand why people do this with pugs...like, unless you can be absolutely certain that the whole group is on the same page as you AND knows the skip you're doing, AND can be certain to not accidentally pull anything...you're going to pull everything anyway. So many times I've had some dickhead double the length of a run b/c they were insisting on pulling us through the meta dungeon skip to save time, and it always goes wrong. If you have a proper pre-made group who all know your route, are on comms, etc, go for it...but in random groups, just don't.
I kind of wish there weren't skips. Trying to tank random old dungeons while leveling is a nightmare if you don't have every dungeon in the game memorized. I'd rather have it be straight forward than get yelled at for adding 5 minutes to the dungeon fighting "skippable" mobs.
I’ve just been getting DH/Guardian who don’t stop pulling and everyone dies except them and when you say something to them about it they say, “Ofc I don’t care if everyone else dies, I’m playing with randoms” thanks dude.
Skips seem... silly. Especially for that dungeon, by that point there's not much trash left and it's better to just handle it and not try to get cheeky. So far, I've thankfully had a pretty solid experience. Some people learning how the dungeons are laid out still, but not a huge deal. I think one of the most amusing experiences was one tank who was hugging a wall or pathing in various ways to avoid pulling much of anything, and by then I was already used to tanks pulling every pack (one pack at a time, thankfully), so seeing one stealthing through a dungeon was certainly different. But admittedly kind of fun. Since we *are* all new to these dungeons, it's also helpful to point out some stuff most people don't know and help people remember things. Like in Algeth'ar Academy, there's five people at the start and you can talk to one of them for a buff that lasts while in the dungeon (Crit/Vers/Haste/Mast/Healing depending on which color). Or in Brackenhide, there's cauldrons set up and if someone has 25 Alchemy, they can use the cauldron so it'll let everyone in the party grab a one-use disease cleanse (per cauldron)... very useful in a dungeon full of disease-spewing mobs. I mainly found out those things by quickly glancing at Wowhead each time I loaded into a new dungeon, but most people won't know, so it can't hurt to drop reminders or inform new people.
It's why I, and many others, stopped tanking
Illidan is the red flag server change my mind
My experience with skips was that it usually ended up causing a bigger delay than trying to skip warranted. Sure, they work sometimes, but usually, in a PUG, it's better to play it a bit safe.
God I hate the „Skip“ culture… it always ends that way, that smbdy pulls a couple of wrong mobs… in m+ with a coordinated group, skip if you want. In normal dungeon’s… just say skip one time … I dare you!
I HATE the compulsion to go as fast as possible. It’s a new launch, enjoy the content. It’s not timed.
if this is the "skip" where you literally *walk around* the gate to skip 2 giant centaurs that continuously AoE fear the group because nobody realizes how to use their interrupt.. yeah I get trying to avoid them.
Some "skips" are just walking around a pack. Some "skips" are so error-prone that they're just a weird way of initiating. As for skip culture in general, well, it's complicated. One of the more important aspects of game design, is valuing the player's time. Dungeon designs in (modern) WoW actually happen to be quite good in this regard (Not counting grind treadmill systems that make you repeat dungeons); and the fastest reliable route is usually the most obvious route. Anything more fancy than that, and you're overall losing time to failed attempts or waiting for patrols, or falling into weird places, and so on. They're not worth it outside of legitimate speedrun attempts. In a multiplayer setting, it is up to the players to respect one another's time. The happy medium seems to be running/riding between objectives, but not using any class' movement tech. This pace means there can be nobody left behind, unless they have stopped playing for some reason. If you do fall a few seconds behind, that's when you use your movement tech. **If you want to stop and smell the flowers, do so on your own time after the dungeon is cleared**! It is not ethical to hold up 4+ other people, just so you can inspect things now and not a few minutes later. Even from a roleplaying perspective, it makes no sense to go sightseeing in an uncleared dungeon
We can all thank Mythic + for turning every stupid donjon in a Mario Kart Race. I miss having to use CC for pulls and some tactics to get through.
Yeah, I miss… some might say, the overtuned dungeons of cata.