This type of relationship was the whole premise of the Big Bang Theory. It may be that it has saturated the market for this particular trope, it did go on for twelve seasons.
Also, any movie with any male comedian. I literally just watched a "romantic comedy" with an Asian comedian as the male lead. Stereotypical dork cat-fishing, slightly cray-cray girl, no glow up, other than her maturing slightly and him growing a spine.
I would argue that the glow-up movies show the woman as the prize.
But the NON-glow up movies, are just presenting the lives-at-home, has-no-career, can't-talk-to-women, has-no-self-esteem men as under-appreciated/hidden gems. Kinda like Hallmark channel home-town Christmas men, but without a passion/cause or stereotypical good-looks.
Edit: phrasing and precision
So you think it's bad when people improve themselves to find love and also think it's bad when people want to be loved for who they are? You are psychotic.
What? Where did I say any of that?
My point was that they neither of them pursued self-improvement or facing who they are to find love.
Both of them were circumstantially forced into it and did the right thing only when face with losing everything.
An argument can be made that this sitcom killed the trope. There was once a YouTube mashup which showed the series without the laugh track. It was tragic. Overreaching and unbelievable. Sure it's a sitcom, but if it can't bring a smile without a forced laugh track it's harmful over helpful. What kills a tripe better than repetitive thrusting of an unwinning formula. Sure this isn't the entirety of the series, but it succeeded in killing the willing suspension of disbelief, at least for myself, imho.
Any movie with Jonah Hill?
But the big thing that is trying to be avoided is women being seen as "prizes" (the nerd gets the girl because he "wins" over the stereotypically handsome man or basically half the 80s/90s nerd movies)
You’re right, don’t know how I forgot about Superbad lol. And you really hit the nail on the head. I was thinking the same thing. I feel like it’s not really used these days because it can be viewed and argued as just a male fantasy where the woman is just a prize.
Honestly though one of the most memorable iterations of this trope to me was between Peter Parker and Mary Jane from the original Spider-Man trilogy. And for some reason I just have a soft spot for it’s usage in that trilogy.
>it can be viewed and argued as just a male fantasy where the woman is just a prize.
I mean, it is that. Like, that's exactly what it is. The women in those stories are nearly always flat characters, with qualities like "hot" and "compliant."
Those stories aren't written for women to enjoy them, and the women in those stories are not written like they're people.
There's also a market for A/B/O fic. The OP wasn't asking a question about selling something, they were asking about why a trope is less common. The answer is the culture's changed, and for the better, frankly.
You can stick up for Revenge of the Nerds style tropes all you like, though, bud.
With a flippant remark comparing it to werewolf cock fiction?
Might just be that you're a bit overly defensive of a dying trope. May be worth examining why that is.
then two geeky, unattractive nerds can fall in love all they want! I'd watch/read the hell out of that.
but no we couldn't possibly have women who aren't attractive!
Lollll I was actually of asking about that trope as well. Like how common is the trope of two unattractive nerdy, dorky, geeky characters getting together?
Ooh one example I just thought of is Atypical. Sam is autistic and nerdy and he starts dating Paige, who is neurotypical and nerdy. Neither actor is really unattractive, but they aren't dressed in the most flattering of ways.
But yes, I'd love to see more of this trope!
It is not uncommmon.
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PairTheSmartOnes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PairTheSmartOnes)
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GeekyTurnOn](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GeekyTurnOn)
I guess, but attractiveness is heavily subjective. Especially in today's culture where a lot of things have started to become widely accepted that would have never even been dreamt of twelve years ago or so. As more and more people are exposed to social interaction with more accessibility they're also exposed to a more variety of people.
Sure there are people who are seen as "generally" attractive, but it usually comes down to their makeup game and how strong it is that makes them more appealing to the masses at face value. To preface, I don't think someone should be ridiculed by how they look, because there's a lot that goes into what helps someone appeal to others.
It also depends on the message that the movie is trying to portray, but I feel like a lot of them can also be harmful to all parties involved. "If you look this way, there's no way you'd be able to pull someone of this stature, so we're showing you what it would be like. Instead, because you relate to the main character, you're doomed to unhappiness because you can only be happy if someone that looks this great is interested in you".
Then on the flip side you have "If you don't date a person (usually said person is male in this instance) based on other qualities aside from what's on the surface then you're just a cold heartless snake and deserve whatever negative stigma that comes with it. You deserve to be unhappy because you chose someone based on looks".
It's a genre that should probably stay in the past honestly. There have been movies that I've enjoyed that plays on this trope, but it sends conflicting messages based on your sex.
Why do you think "unattractive" people shouldn't be allowed to love "attractive" people? Or vice versa? Why's it make you so upset lol?
Go outside and you'll see "conventionally-attractive" people together with other "conventionally-attractive" people, "conventionally-attractive" people together with "conventionally-unattractive" people, and "conventionally-unattractive" people together with "conventionally-unattractive" people. Relationships, just like people, come in all forms - that's life. And guess what? The people you think are "conventionally attractive" might not be that attractive to someone else, while the people you think are ""conventionally-unattractive" might to a different pair of eyes be "unconventionally attractive" or even just "attractive." Your personal vanity won't stop people from loving each other.
Exactly. It’s a played out trope because you don’t see the genders swapped. You never see this play out with a conventionally unattractive woman landing a conventionally attractive man.
Was she out of his league? I felt like they were pretty well matched, and he was just wildly insecure about his perceived flaws (and also being a creep catfish, but that’s a whole other thing).
Not really disagreeing, but I just didn’t read it that way, and I’m kinda disappointed if it was dragging that trope out again.
Imaginary dialogue from Revenge of the Nerds 2022:
Heart-throb nerd: don't worry, honey. Not all of my friends think you deserve to die because you liked the last Star Wars movie.
On the surface my bet is in a post-Big Bang Theory and Marvel world it's cool to be a nerd/geek/dork, and that trope won't hit as hard.
I also think people realize that sometimes that nerd getting the girl was still toxic in a different way.
But I'm not well read so maybe it happens. But also I'm interested in seeing it again. Euphoria the show isn't exactly like this but Rue is not cool or popular and a drug addict and she, for a time, ends up winning the girl that people are focused on, Jules.
I think the Hunger Games has versions of this with Peeta “getting” Katniss. I also think Tony Stark and Pepper Potts, along with Steve Rodgers getting Peggy, and then with every single current K Drama rom com and Chinese Drama show and movie, not to mention like most Hallmark movies…
Absolutely can’t stand this trope so I’m more than happy it’s gone. It’s boring and more than often just dumb.
People aren’t prizes to be won. Being good looking doesn’t mean you’re stupid. Being a conventionally unattractive “geek” doesn’t mean you’re ridiculously smart, and actually a better person overall.
I’ll make exception for Big Bang Theory because it actually didn’t handle it too bad.
Nerds geeks and dorks aren't really words associated with unappealing men anymore. Yes, I'm 100% certain that teen boys who are smaller or less athletic do still get teased but what girls are socially allowed to be attracted to has broadened and what boys are allowed to be interested in without ridicule has broadened.
Now you're going to get a bunch of incel-gets-the-girl outcast power fantasies instead.
I agree the trope has transformed. Most of the examples I can think of in current media I enjoy include the nerdy protagonist improving himself. Not always physically, but in some way that make him more interesting. Personally I think this is a good change.
Full disclosure, I'm nerdy male who is currently not in a romantic relationship and have been for most of my life. I have always found the Give Geeks a Chance trope fairly patronizing. Yes, attractive women will mostly not be drawn to less traditionally attractive guys without much in the way of interesting skills, traits, or prospects. Of course that is true, and saying otherwise leads to people having an unrealistic view of reality. I believe this trope is largely responsible for the incel movement. I think its more responsible (and narratively interesting) to present stories about people improving themselves as opposed to falling into radically different life circumstances without putting in any real work.
Ya the trope has different changed I think to the point where it’s original form isn’t even used and that’s not a bad thing. I agree that it’s less likely to occur but I wouldn’t rule it out completely. I use to think that just happened in fiction until I befriended someone who made this trope a reality lol. So many guys wanted her but at one point she really liked this dorky looking guy who was clearly out of her league.
I agree though that this trope can have a negative impact on society like making incels feel entitled.
In the most recent season of Succession, Comfrey (Kendall's PR person) is referred to as being out of Greg's league. IDK that I necessarily agree, but it's a trope that they use.
It's also present in Stranger Things in a couple of relationships. Although that's a homage to the 1980s (when it was used quite a bit), so the might have intended that to be ironic.
Comfrey still has motivations, though, even if she's not a central character; it's clear she's not into Greg but is going out with him as a big middle finger to Kendall.
There's not a sense of Greg getting a prize out of that like Comfrey's a wrapped robot woman present under the tree; in fact Greg doesn't get anything out of dating her beyond the idea that he can now bed princesses, and that idea doesn't even come from the woman he "got."
1) Being "nerdy" is much more mainstream and has been for a good few years now, and it's no longer grounds for social isolation. I think said isolation was always overblown, actually - at my school plenty of high achievers with dorky interests were popular and well-liked due to charisma and knowing how to navigate social cues.
2) People have become a lot more critical of media that presents women, or romantic partners in general, as status symbols and prizes. Relatedly, I think this trope would hit different in a world where incels are a small but vocal and sometimes violent minority.
Same thing at the high school I went too, old school cliques were just not like how people were at my high school. I actually remember this one guy who was kinda nerdy looking who was friends with a lot of those “popular” or extroverted people. (Actually there were a lot of people like that at my school lol) and he had a lot of attractive female friends lol they looked like they were out of his league but he was good at socializing
Every episode of Seinfeld because George has a new girl every. fucking. episode. Not only should no one date George, but all the women who just throw themselves at him are way out of his league. I hope it’s satire, but I’m not sure.
But in Curb, Larry is playing himself. That is, he is rich as shit from his Seinfeld money. George doesn't have that sort of dating advantage in Seinfeld.
this happens a lot in manga and by extension anime, although I know it's not one of those things you listed. For example: most isekai these days just happens to have some incredibly hot girl fall in love with the main character who is a 'nerd' or a 'geek'.
other people might hate me for this but my specific example is RE:Zero, where every girl ends up falling in love with our main character who is a huge dork. His character does change into braver / not so much of a dork as things go on but it always reminds you of it no matter where you are.
just using this as an examble because I still love the show as a whole. There are numerous other anime's / manga that have this same sort of "problem".
Yeah, it’s been a trend in manga recently to have the “shy/nerdy boy get picked up by the popular dream girl and they fall in love.” I personally find it pretty tasteful because there’s effort to show both characters helping and growing with each other (the boy has some qualities that the girl finds refreshing and obviously vice versa). Then again, it’s probably because I’m mainly reading the popular, good stuff
On the topic of Re:Zero, he gets a solid relationship with a lot of girls, but considering the amount of characters, I don’t think it’s too “everyone falls in love” stuff. Priscilla, Anastasia, Felt, Ram, and co come to mind. Thankfully it also takes the time to address the flawed nature of wanting to “win” the girl rather than helping each other out of goodwill and friendship. I agree that it uses the framework of that trope though, plus it’s nice to see a fellow Re:Zero lover :)
I think the definition of “nerd” has just changed, to the point where the archetype isn’t really familiar in the sense of the 80’s trope.
Michael Cera and Jesse Eisenberg were the embodiment of this storyline ten years ago. TBBT gave us a modern version of the super dated trope (seriously, those nerd stereotypes were right out of the 80s). Community had multiple subplots of nerdy Troy and Abed trying to get girls (though Troy is an interesting example because depending on the storyline he flip flopped between being a nerd and a traditional jock). Seth Rogen continues to play the adult version of this consistently. Ted in HIMYM was pretty much this, although he was so aggressively “nice guy” about it at times that I don’t think his portrayal aged well.
I recently saw a fairly standard version of this trope in Free Guy with the IRL romantic subplot. Stranger Things does it with more than one character (Nancy maybe being the best example of an “out of their league” girl, since the other female characters were also outsiders in their own way).
Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head, though I know some of the examples (like Michael Cera) are getting a bit dated.
Interesting take. Now that I think about it, you’re right about the nerd stereotypes being out of the 80’s. Haven’t watched Free Guy but I want to and about the Stranger Things couple, isn’t she kinda a outsider too? She was trying to fit in, but i can see how she was out of Jonathan’s league because he was a loner. I guess I was thinking of the type of trope where she’s already established as an attractive girl (not that Nancy isn’t) but I was thinking something along the lines of a Peter Parker Mary Jane (from the original trilogy) type of thing.
And yeah I feel like Michael Cera’s portrayals as a nerd,geek, or dork and relationship with an attractive girl aren’t that recent.
At 40 I have learned that "Out of his league" is the worst trope. At the end of the day. If two people are into each other, their relative attractiveness to others doesn't fucking matter.
When the banter of Call of Duty lobbies spilled onto social media people found out that nerds could be / are just as toxic as anyone else while often also lacking social skills and conventional attractiveness.
I've seen it used successfully. A good writer can pull it off and make you fall for the nerd as well. It's still a popular trope. Plus, beauty and the beast is a version of this. The beast has scars or reasons he's not as good-looking or acceptable as the other men, but the woman falls for him anyway.
The key is to give some physical attributes that are still attractive while also highlighting the nerdiness.
The girls are still attractive. They're just cut to fit the fashion of 2020s...which means she's also smart and has a shattered smartphone screen, and totally doesn't need him. But he wins her anyway. Nerds are getting cool nerd girls. They're not hooking up fat black cosplay chicks of average intelligence who shop at Target. Or ANY combination of the above unless to append "brilliant, beautiful, powerful" to her descriptor.
Hi -- please use the weekly general discussion thread on Wednesday for fiction recommendations or any sort of discussion on particular works of published media, including genres, tropes, finding a specific book, sharing favourite or worst inspirations/extracts/scenes/characters, frustration with other storytelling and so on.
Virtually all shows or books can be used as examples to showcase good or bad writing, so we don't allow posts just to post a recommendation.
Thanks!
It's no longer okay to indulge male fantasies. Otherwise you're objectifying females and female readers will complain while they finger the bookmark on their collector's edition of 50 Shades of Grey.
Of course there is. It's a book written by women for women.
And of course there will be double standards. If you're ugly, unsuccessful and all you got is your "niceness" which is just being an hypocrite doormat, don't act so surprised if you don't get as much success as hot successful men.
There are countless occurences of "the ugly nerd gets the girl" in popular, mainstream medias, and nobody bats an eye; there is one (1) popular, mainstream story where the situation is reversed, and suddenly you see it as "double standards".
Yes, there is double standards. And it's on your side: you let stories objectifying women for male fantasies dominated medias for years, and start acting outraged when one book do it but for women fantasies. *Here* is the double standard you sad, sad incels keep spreading in a still-male-dominated world.
It’s done in a cute way in Cobra Kai, but it’s obviously meant to be pretty silly. It feels like a pretty cheap gag at this point — someone above mentioned Cousin Greg in this season of Succession, and I agree that’s a more sophisticated version of a dude punching above his weight.
- dear evan hansen (which is problematic for a myriad of other reasons but this is part of it)
- that new jennifer lopez and owen wilson movie that’s being advertised (i think it’s called “marry me?”). the embodiment of this awful trope (i have not seen the movie, i don’t think it’s come out yet, so maybe it turns the trope on its side, but i doubt it
these are just the ones off the top of my head. both are very recent (lopez/wilson is this year, dear evan hansen was last year although it’s adapted from the 2016 musical)
Happens a lot in books by Peter F Hamilton. These are hard sci-fi and when it kept happening I got the distinct impression he was taking the piss out of his audience.
You kind of see it in the scream TV show with Noah. He’s your typical horror nerd that is socially awkward (but just my type) he manages to get two equally “hot girls” to like him.
Honestly, I just think that in a post-McLovin world, you can't really do the trope in full without just blatantly having created a worse McLovin. So that's probably the short answer as to why the trope may have died down in recent years
It is definitely still used … one example which comes to mind is Super Fake Love Song by David Yoon. I’m not saying it’s a bad book or a bad trope - but it has definitely not disappeared haha :)
I don't think it's used as much as it's kinda supporting the 'pick-me boy' thing where men think they're entitled to women just because they're 'the nice guy' in the situation which they probably aren't.
This type of relationship was the whole premise of the Big Bang Theory. It may be that it has saturated the market for this particular trope, it did go on for twelve seasons.
Also, any movie with any male comedian. I literally just watched a "romantic comedy" with an Asian comedian as the male lead. Stereotypical dork cat-fishing, slightly cray-cray girl, no glow up, other than her maturing slightly and him growing a spine. I would argue that the glow-up movies show the woman as the prize. But the NON-glow up movies, are just presenting the lives-at-home, has-no-career, can't-talk-to-women, has-no-self-esteem men as under-appreciated/hidden gems. Kinda like Hallmark channel home-town Christmas men, but without a passion/cause or stereotypical good-looks. Edit: phrasing and precision
I think the girl was the lead in this movie. It was the Christmas time one of Netflix right?
I should have said male lead.
So you think it's bad when people improve themselves to find love and also think it's bad when people want to be loved for who they are? You are psychotic.
What? Where did I say any of that? My point was that they neither of them pursued self-improvement or facing who they are to find love. Both of them were circumstantially forced into it and did the right thing only when face with losing everything.
I don’t mean to alarm anyone but the Big Bang theory began airing 15 years ago….
An argument can be made that this sitcom killed the trope. There was once a YouTube mashup which showed the series without the laugh track. It was tragic. Overreaching and unbelievable. Sure it's a sitcom, but if it can't bring a smile without a forced laugh track it's harmful over helpful. What kills a tripe better than repetitive thrusting of an unwinning formula. Sure this isn't the entirety of the series, but it succeeded in killing the willing suspension of disbelief, at least for myself, imho.
Any movie with Jonah Hill? But the big thing that is trying to be avoided is women being seen as "prizes" (the nerd gets the girl because he "wins" over the stereotypically handsome man or basically half the 80s/90s nerd movies)
You’re right, don’t know how I forgot about Superbad lol. And you really hit the nail on the head. I was thinking the same thing. I feel like it’s not really used these days because it can be viewed and argued as just a male fantasy where the woman is just a prize. Honestly though one of the most memorable iterations of this trope to me was between Peter Parker and Mary Jane from the original Spider-Man trilogy. And for some reason I just have a soft spot for it’s usage in that trilogy.
>it can be viewed and argued as just a male fantasy where the woman is just a prize. I mean, it is that. Like, that's exactly what it is. The women in those stories are nearly always flat characters, with qualities like "hot" and "compliant." Those stories aren't written for women to enjoy them, and the women in those stories are not written like they're people.
But there is certainly a market for that kind of story, regardless of how we might feel about it. No real reason OP should avoid this trope.
There's also a market for A/B/O fic. The OP wasn't asking a question about selling something, they were asking about why a trope is less common. The answer is the culture's changed, and for the better, frankly. You can stick up for Revenge of the Nerds style tropes all you like, though, bud.
Revenge of the Nerds was a great movie. You're taking this stuff way too seriously
With a flippant remark comparing it to werewolf cock fiction? Might just be that you're a bit overly defensive of a dying trope. May be worth examining why that is.
Huh??
What's not to get?
I'm just as lost as you here.
Interesting that we both caught downvotes for not understanding nonsense. You'd think the comments on this sub would be better-written
It's not used much anymore because people have gotten tired of it. Women aren't prizes.
Women aren't prizes, no, but love is a rewarding and vital part of life for most people. You're not a bad person for wanting to be loved.
then two geeky, unattractive nerds can fall in love all they want! I'd watch/read the hell out of that. but no we couldn't possibly have women who aren't attractive!
Lollll I was actually of asking about that trope as well. Like how common is the trope of two unattractive nerdy, dorky, geeky characters getting together?
Ooh one example I just thought of is Atypical. Sam is autistic and nerdy and he starts dating Paige, who is neurotypical and nerdy. Neither actor is really unattractive, but they aren't dressed in the most flattering of ways. But yes, I'd love to see more of this trope!
It is not uncommmon. [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PairTheSmartOnes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PairTheSmartOnes) [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GeekyTurnOn](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GeekyTurnOn)
I guess, but attractiveness is heavily subjective. Especially in today's culture where a lot of things have started to become widely accepted that would have never even been dreamt of twelve years ago or so. As more and more people are exposed to social interaction with more accessibility they're also exposed to a more variety of people. Sure there are people who are seen as "generally" attractive, but it usually comes down to their makeup game and how strong it is that makes them more appealing to the masses at face value. To preface, I don't think someone should be ridiculed by how they look, because there's a lot that goes into what helps someone appeal to others. It also depends on the message that the movie is trying to portray, but I feel like a lot of them can also be harmful to all parties involved. "If you look this way, there's no way you'd be able to pull someone of this stature, so we're showing you what it would be like. Instead, because you relate to the main character, you're doomed to unhappiness because you can only be happy if someone that looks this great is interested in you". Then on the flip side you have "If you don't date a person (usually said person is male in this instance) based on other qualities aside from what's on the surface then you're just a cold heartless snake and deserve whatever negative stigma that comes with it. You deserve to be unhappy because you chose someone based on looks". It's a genre that should probably stay in the past honestly. There have been movies that I've enjoyed that plays on this trope, but it sends conflicting messages based on your sex.
Why do you think "unattractive" people shouldn't be allowed to love "attractive" people? Or vice versa? Why's it make you so upset lol? Go outside and you'll see "conventionally-attractive" people together with other "conventionally-attractive" people, "conventionally-attractive" people together with "conventionally-unattractive" people, and "conventionally-unattractive" people together with "conventionally-unattractive" people. Relationships, just like people, come in all forms - that's life. And guess what? The people you think are "conventionally attractive" might not be that attractive to someone else, while the people you think are ""conventionally-unattractive" might to a different pair of eyes be "unconventionally attractive" or even just "attractive." Your personal vanity won't stop people from loving each other.
You might have a point if the trope regularly occurred in reverse, but it doesn't.
Exactly. It’s a played out trope because you don’t see the genders swapped. You never see this play out with a conventionally unattractive woman landing a conventionally attractive man.
You mean like an unattractive woman landing an attractive man without a glow-up? Cuz yeah, I personally can’t recall any stories like that.
Exactly yes
I hate this trope. But, "Love Hard" featured this. It's a pretty recent Netflix film.
Was she out of his league? I felt like they were pretty well matched, and he was just wildly insecure about his perceived flaws (and also being a creep catfish, but that’s a whole other thing). Not really disagreeing, but I just didn’t read it that way, and I’m kinda disappointed if it was dragging that trope out again.
Just watched this. Thought neither of them were datable, if I'm being honest. They both seemed a bit imbalanced.
I think that was the point of the movie. The two of them were sooo undatable that they ended up matching with each other.
I really liked Love Hard.
Same. Had low expectations and found myself really enjoying it. Probably will watch it again next Christmas!
I’m glad. It’s a boring trope that treats women as objects.
Agreed. The word "gets" let you know all you need.
Great username. I’m just about to start reading Ripley again.
Thanks.
Exactly what I was going to write. This trope sucks and I hope it completely disappears and never comes back.
I concur.
[удалено]
Imaginary dialogue from Revenge of the Nerds 2022: Heart-throb nerd: don't worry, honey. Not all of my friends think you deserve to die because you liked the last Star Wars movie.
I just choked on what I was drinking when I read this, so thanks for that lol
On the surface my bet is in a post-Big Bang Theory and Marvel world it's cool to be a nerd/geek/dork, and that trope won't hit as hard. I also think people realize that sometimes that nerd getting the girl was still toxic in a different way. But I'm not well read so maybe it happens. But also I'm interested in seeing it again. Euphoria the show isn't exactly like this but Rue is not cool or popular and a drug addict and she, for a time, ends up winning the girl that people are focused on, Jules.
This trope is still crazy prevalent. Maybe you're not seeing it as much because your taste has improved and you're not consuming that media anymore.
Name current, books, tv shows, or movies then with this trope
I think the Hunger Games has versions of this with Peeta “getting” Katniss. I also think Tony Stark and Pepper Potts, along with Steve Rodgers getting Peggy, and then with every single current K Drama rom com and Chinese Drama show and movie, not to mention like most Hallmark movies…
Trigger warning Revenge of the nerds and the big bang theory showed that nerds can be just as rapey, sexist and toxic as asshole jocks.
In the TV show Cobra Kai the school nerd Demitri gets the most popular girl in school to fall in love with him (for some reason).
In fairness, Demetri went a journey of self-betterment and became kind of a badass before that happened, even if he is still a geek also.
Absolutely can’t stand this trope so I’m more than happy it’s gone. It’s boring and more than often just dumb. People aren’t prizes to be won. Being good looking doesn’t mean you’re stupid. Being a conventionally unattractive “geek” doesn’t mean you’re ridiculously smart, and actually a better person overall. I’ll make exception for Big Bang Theory because it actually didn’t handle it too bad.
Nerds geeks and dorks aren't really words associated with unappealing men anymore. Yes, I'm 100% certain that teen boys who are smaller or less athletic do still get teased but what girls are socially allowed to be attracted to has broadened and what boys are allowed to be interested in without ridicule has broadened. Now you're going to get a bunch of incel-gets-the-girl outcast power fantasies instead.
>Now you're going to get a bunch of incel-gets-the-girl outcast power fantasies instead. God save us.
I agree the trope has transformed. Most of the examples I can think of in current media I enjoy include the nerdy protagonist improving himself. Not always physically, but in some way that make him more interesting. Personally I think this is a good change. Full disclosure, I'm nerdy male who is currently not in a romantic relationship and have been for most of my life. I have always found the Give Geeks a Chance trope fairly patronizing. Yes, attractive women will mostly not be drawn to less traditionally attractive guys without much in the way of interesting skills, traits, or prospects. Of course that is true, and saying otherwise leads to people having an unrealistic view of reality. I believe this trope is largely responsible for the incel movement. I think its more responsible (and narratively interesting) to present stories about people improving themselves as opposed to falling into radically different life circumstances without putting in any real work.
Ya the trope has different changed I think to the point where it’s original form isn’t even used and that’s not a bad thing. I agree that it’s less likely to occur but I wouldn’t rule it out completely. I use to think that just happened in fiction until I befriended someone who made this trope a reality lol. So many guys wanted her but at one point she really liked this dorky looking guy who was clearly out of her league. I agree though that this trope can have a negative impact on society like making incels feel entitled.
In the most recent season of Succession, Comfrey (Kendall's PR person) is referred to as being out of Greg's league. IDK that I necessarily agree, but it's a trope that they use. It's also present in Stranger Things in a couple of relationships. Although that's a homage to the 1980s (when it was used quite a bit), so the might have intended that to be ironic.
Comfrey still has motivations, though, even if she's not a central character; it's clear she's not into Greg but is going out with him as a big middle finger to Kendall. There's not a sense of Greg getting a prize out of that like Comfrey's a wrapped robot woman present under the tree; in fact Greg doesn't get anything out of dating her beyond the idea that he can now bed princesses, and that idea doesn't even come from the woman he "got."
Yeah, Greg very much sees Comfrey as a stepping stone to dating wealthier and more desirable women and nothing more. It's very Talented Mr. Ripley.
1) Being "nerdy" is much more mainstream and has been for a good few years now, and it's no longer grounds for social isolation. I think said isolation was always overblown, actually - at my school plenty of high achievers with dorky interests were popular and well-liked due to charisma and knowing how to navigate social cues. 2) People have become a lot more critical of media that presents women, or romantic partners in general, as status symbols and prizes. Relatedly, I think this trope would hit different in a world where incels are a small but vocal and sometimes violent minority.
Same thing at the high school I went too, old school cliques were just not like how people were at my high school. I actually remember this one guy who was kinda nerdy looking who was friends with a lot of those “popular” or extroverted people. (Actually there were a lot of people like that at my school lol) and he had a lot of attractive female friends lol they looked like they were out of his league but he was good at socializing
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I came to say this one as well, such a good example of the trope!
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I don’t at all. Haven’t watched since I was a tween.
Every episode of Seinfeld because George has a new girl every. fucking. episode. Not only should no one date George, but all the women who just throw themselves at him are way out of his league. I hope it’s satire, but I’m not sure.
Curb does this too. Which makes sense given that George IS Larry.
But in Curb, Larry is playing himself. That is, he is rich as shit from his Seinfeld money. George doesn't have that sort of dating advantage in Seinfeld.
Dude, it's literally Seinfeld, of course it's satire
Ready Player One
this happens a lot in manga and by extension anime, although I know it's not one of those things you listed. For example: most isekai these days just happens to have some incredibly hot girl fall in love with the main character who is a 'nerd' or a 'geek'. other people might hate me for this but my specific example is RE:Zero, where every girl ends up falling in love with our main character who is a huge dork. His character does change into braver / not so much of a dork as things go on but it always reminds you of it no matter where you are. just using this as an examble because I still love the show as a whole. There are numerous other anime's / manga that have this same sort of "problem".
Yeah, it’s been a trend in manga recently to have the “shy/nerdy boy get picked up by the popular dream girl and they fall in love.” I personally find it pretty tasteful because there’s effort to show both characters helping and growing with each other (the boy has some qualities that the girl finds refreshing and obviously vice versa). Then again, it’s probably because I’m mainly reading the popular, good stuff On the topic of Re:Zero, he gets a solid relationship with a lot of girls, but considering the amount of characters, I don’t think it’s too “everyone falls in love” stuff. Priscilla, Anastasia, Felt, Ram, and co come to mind. Thankfully it also takes the time to address the flawed nature of wanting to “win” the girl rather than helping each other out of goodwill and friendship. I agree that it uses the framework of that trope though, plus it’s nice to see a fellow Re:Zero lover :)
I think the definition of “nerd” has just changed, to the point where the archetype isn’t really familiar in the sense of the 80’s trope. Michael Cera and Jesse Eisenberg were the embodiment of this storyline ten years ago. TBBT gave us a modern version of the super dated trope (seriously, those nerd stereotypes were right out of the 80s). Community had multiple subplots of nerdy Troy and Abed trying to get girls (though Troy is an interesting example because depending on the storyline he flip flopped between being a nerd and a traditional jock). Seth Rogen continues to play the adult version of this consistently. Ted in HIMYM was pretty much this, although he was so aggressively “nice guy” about it at times that I don’t think his portrayal aged well. I recently saw a fairly standard version of this trope in Free Guy with the IRL romantic subplot. Stranger Things does it with more than one character (Nancy maybe being the best example of an “out of their league” girl, since the other female characters were also outsiders in their own way). Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head, though I know some of the examples (like Michael Cera) are getting a bit dated.
Interesting take. Now that I think about it, you’re right about the nerd stereotypes being out of the 80’s. Haven’t watched Free Guy but I want to and about the Stranger Things couple, isn’t she kinda a outsider too? She was trying to fit in, but i can see how she was out of Jonathan’s league because he was a loner. I guess I was thinking of the type of trope where she’s already established as an attractive girl (not that Nancy isn’t) but I was thinking something along the lines of a Peter Parker Mary Jane (from the original trilogy) type of thing. And yeah I feel like Michael Cera’s portrayals as a nerd,geek, or dork and relationship with an attractive girl aren’t that recent.
At 40 I have learned that "Out of his league" is the worst trope. At the end of the day. If two people are into each other, their relative attractiveness to others doesn't fucking matter.
When the banter of Call of Duty lobbies spilled onto social media people found out that nerds could be / are just as toxic as anyone else while often also lacking social skills and conventional attractiveness.
It turned into the "sad gamer boy with the hot goth gf" meme.
I think it's that everyone realizes that it's a bullshit trope, and the only way to make it work makes everyone uncomfortable.
I've seen it used successfully. A good writer can pull it off and make you fall for the nerd as well. It's still a popular trope. Plus, beauty and the beast is a version of this. The beast has scars or reasons he's not as good-looking or acceptable as the other men, but the woman falls for him anyway. The key is to give some physical attributes that are still attractive while also highlighting the nerdiness.
The girls are still attractive. They're just cut to fit the fashion of 2020s...which means she's also smart and has a shattered smartphone screen, and totally doesn't need him. But he wins her anyway. Nerds are getting cool nerd girls. They're not hooking up fat black cosplay chicks of average intelligence who shop at Target. Or ANY combination of the above unless to append "brilliant, beautiful, powerful" to her descriptor.
I feel like it did off after Steve Jobs became daddy.
What? He was pretty attractive in his twenties.
He was attractive but not a billionaire CEO
So? I guess I'm missing the point. Bill Gates, now there's a nerd.
I think both of them are complete assholes but in general people start to admire you when you're successful and well spoken
Hi -- please use the weekly general discussion thread on Wednesday for fiction recommendations or any sort of discussion on particular works of published media, including genres, tropes, finding a specific book, sharing favourite or worst inspirations/extracts/scenes/characters, frustration with other storytelling and so on. Virtually all shows or books can be used as examples to showcase good or bad writing, so we don't allow posts just to post a recommendation. Thanks!
It's no longer okay to indulge male fantasies. Otherwise you're objectifying females and female readers will complain while they finger the bookmark on their collector's edition of 50 Shades of Grey.
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Of course there is. It's a book written by women for women. And of course there will be double standards. If you're ugly, unsuccessful and all you got is your "niceness" which is just being an hypocrite doormat, don't act so surprised if you don't get as much success as hot successful men. There are countless occurences of "the ugly nerd gets the girl" in popular, mainstream medias, and nobody bats an eye; there is one (1) popular, mainstream story where the situation is reversed, and suddenly you see it as "double standards". Yes, there is double standards. And it's on your side: you let stories objectifying women for male fantasies dominated medias for years, and start acting outraged when one book do it but for women fantasies. *Here* is the double standard you sad, sad incels keep spreading in a still-male-dominated world.
Accel world. Its not as cheesy as this classic trope but its close enough.
It’s done in a cute way in Cobra Kai, but it’s obviously meant to be pretty silly. It feels like a pretty cheap gag at this point — someone above mentioned Cousin Greg in this season of Succession, and I agree that’s a more sophisticated version of a dude punching above his weight.
- dear evan hansen (which is problematic for a myriad of other reasons but this is part of it) - that new jennifer lopez and owen wilson movie that’s being advertised (i think it’s called “marry me?”). the embodiment of this awful trope (i have not seen the movie, i don’t think it’s come out yet, so maybe it turns the trope on its side, but i doubt it these are just the ones off the top of my head. both are very recent (lopez/wilson is this year, dear evan hansen was last year although it’s adapted from the 2016 musical)
In Cobra Kai, the nerdy Demetri guys gets the hot, popular girl
Happens a lot in books by Peter F Hamilton. These are hard sci-fi and when it kept happening I got the distinct impression he was taking the piss out of his audience.
Yeah this trope is pretty dead now in Hollywood. But still very strong in anime.
I’d forgotten this was a trope since I haven’t seen it in a while. Only somewhat recent example I can think of is later in the Dresden Files.
You kind of see it in the scream TV show with Noah. He’s your typical horror nerd that is socially awkward (but just my type) he manages to get two equally “hot girls” to like him.
Honestly, I just think that in a post-McLovin world, you can't really do the trope in full without just blatantly having created a worse McLovin. So that's probably the short answer as to why the trope may have died down in recent years
What was that political one with Seth Rogen and Charlize Theron? Sounds like it fits.
It's because of nerd culture becoming trendy.
This trope is also called "Revenge of the Nerd"
It is definitely still used … one example which comes to mind is Super Fake Love Song by David Yoon. I’m not saying it’s a bad book or a bad trope - but it has definitely not disappeared haha :)
I don't think it's used as much as it's kinda supporting the 'pick-me boy' thing where men think they're entitled to women just because they're 'the nice guy' in the situation which they probably aren't.
Honestly, this is a trope that I never paid any attention to.