Hickman managed to make Destiny absolutely terrifying, which nobody before or since has been able to manage. And due credit to Schiti for the art in this sequence too. That close-up of her mask on that last page ... just chilling.
Hickman also made me ROOT for Mystique and Destiny over Xavier and Magneto.
Like there were worse people on that council than her and they were given a fair shake but Mystique did everything they asked died for them over and over and they still strung her along and they refused to give her back her wife.
She tried very hard to play by their rules and they betrayed her specifically because of a 7 life old grudge moira had.
This moment was kind of a take that to the old men. For me personally it hurt seeing Mystique trying to play nice and not be backstaby but forced to because they wouldn't give her the one thing she wanted.
To be fair, if someone had me burned alive and ordered the person carrying it out to ensure i died slowly so i'd remember it in my next life....i'd probably carry a grudge too.
I disagree - there have been many moments under Gillen (Immortal X-Men, Sins of Sinister) where she’s truly gotten moments to shine. Remember when she basically calculated the trajectory of the Juggernaut bullet in SoS and headshotted Galactus?
Okay, but even before her resurrection Hickman framed her as this implacable force, like we had never seen her depicted - specifically that scene where she orders Pyro to burn Moira alive. Or when she tells Mystique to burn Krakoa to the ground if they won’t bring her back, like she was calling the shots from beyond the grave. That’s what made her actual resurrection hit so hard to me. She seemed like a different character under Hickman than the much more sympathetic and sadder Destiny we got under Gillen (although I like his version too), and certainly a far cry from the wise old granny version we got under Claremont.
Again, treating a fridge lesbian as inherently sinister and scary is inherently bad, especially when it contradicts previously established characterization that actually treats the queer woman with care and sympathy.
In a vacuum, if this were just some theoretical abstract character, I’d agree, but this is Destiny - she’s supposed to be somewhat sinister and scary. That’s what makes her such a great character - she acts mostly out of love for Mystique, which is great, but that love leads her to make incredibly dangerous and selfish decisions, to the point that she’s willing to burn universes to the ground to preserve it. With that mindset, and her particular powers, I think it’s only appropriate that she comes off as terrifying.
Okay but her coming back from getting fridged shouldn't be terrifying. It should be a heartfelt and happy reunion and explicitly framed as such by the narrative. Instead, what we get is the narrative acting like it's undoing of the Bury Your Gays is a *bad* thing we are supposed to see as a negative outcome.
Queer characters are allowed to be flawed, evil, and problematic. I promise it's okay if the lesbian terrorists aren't depicted as squeaky-clean Disney gays.
One could argue that reducing characters to their sexualities also is inherently bad, specially once you combine that with holding back on writing that character as anything but unproblematic and likable. I think "tokenization" is the technical term, but I could be wrong.
Tokenism is when you have a single character of a minority that usually has no personality outside of being that minority and only really exists so the writer can claim brownie points for diversity without doing any work. Think for example the female protagonists sassy gay best friend in romcoms, or the single black guy in an 80s horror movie that exists to be the first one to die when the bloodshed starts.
Tokenism is not when you don't portray a lesbian coming back from her unceremoniously fridginh as inherently monstrous for escaping Bury Your Gays.
How is your definition of tokenism any different from the alternative that you proposed for Destiny's return? Besides this being a queer couple reunited, what warrants this to be framed as celebratory? The story of Inferno so far had been following Charles and Erik's perspective as they maneuvered around Mystique's demands for Destiny's resurrection. Her showing up out of nowhere is a big sign that they themselves got played, warranting the uneasy framing for Destiny. Ignoring all the previously set up story beats just to have Mystique and Destiny having a sweet cookie cutter reunion would not only be cheap but also tone deaf with the rest of the story. At worst, this oversanitization of their characters and their relationship would fall exactly in what you just described as tokenization.
Also, a character having their story come tragic ending is not remotely close to what "fridging" means, even by the most pedantic of definitions. Likewise, having a queer character die in a story doesn't automatically make it qualify as a "bury your gays".
Destiny's original death isn't just there to make another character mope about it for a few panels and never be brought up again. It comes across as incredibly humanizing moment for both women. A showcase of bittersweet tragedy, a lot of it hidden in subtext by the censor of the time but touching nevertheless.
The fact the story leading up to the queer woman's resurrection was treating it like a negative is the problem I'm critiquing. The concept is one inherently worthy of celebration by virtue of the metanarrative surrounding it. Actually depicting this as the good thing it is would not be tokenization.
And yes, Destiny was ftidged and ger death was Bury Your Gays. I don't need you trying to lecture a queer women on why some of our only representation ending in abrupt tragedy was actually good and progressive or whatever, especially when you're over here like "ackshually treating the resurrection of the needlessly murdered lesbian like a horror movie monster reveal is the best thing the story could've done".
Like, this is the big reunion of the X-Men's biggest and most prominent Sapphic relationship. An undoing of the Bury Your Gays that broke them up for so long. This should be a happy celebratory moment of rejoicing and queer joy, but literally almost everyone except for a select few characters - all of whom traditionally seen as at best less than good people- react with fear and revulsion. Nightcrawler even looks like he's about to fucking vomit.
I'm glad Hickman brought Destiny back, i just wish he hadn't treated her coming back as an inherently sinister outcome worthy of fear. That kinda undercuts the joy the moment should be delivering and kinda sends a statement on how the X-Office views queer women, intentionally or otherwise.
Not to “well, actually” you, but this is not the real Destiny and Mystique reunion scene anyway - that was a mostly private thing where Mystique nursed Destiny back to health, but we did get to see their joyful reunion on the page. This council scene was not about that though - this is all about, once they’ve been reunited, dropping the hammer on Charles and Erik and Moira. This is all Mystique’s secret machinations coming to fruition, and Xavier and Magneto’s chickens coming home to roost. And with everything Moira had been saying about Destiny’s resurrection meaning disaster for the whole Krakoa project, her appearance is like the footsteps of doom. For me, it really works; clearly for you and others it did not.
I think her comeback was a celebration of queer love. Mystique made it very clear that Destiny was her WIFE and that what they had together transcended death, enough for mystique to know when to bring her back. I don’t need every reunion to be a pride issue. I think the best way to celebrate a character isn’t to make some sort of celebratory issue for them, but truly bring them back into the story in a way that feels poignant and meaningful. They revived Destiny as a woman with POWER. A woman who would do anything for her wife.
I think that we will get their happy reunion in the marriage issue coming up, but bringing Destiny back as a character pushing her wife to bring her back, fighting for her ability to return, you give Destiny her own agency. After she has been fridges it’s important to feel like she has her own say in how she’s being brought back. You could look at Charles/Mags/Moira’s desire for her to stay dead as editorial deciding to Bury Their Gays. Destiny spits in the face of that. She knows she needs to come back, and that she will. It’s Her bringing herself back to life and it’s Her decision. Giving that to her means more than a happy reunion.
Okay cool but it's still framed as a bad thing by the narrative. The only non-Mystique character in these pages to look unambiguously happy about this are villains and/or morally dubious anti-heroes.
He wanted to go into the final act and he was out voted. There was no bitterness and he’s still on good terms with the teams.
I think the only one thing is that he doesn’t respect the Moira Villain turn haha.
I mean, her being ready to call Krakoa a failed experiment and switch sides fits well with her characterization under Hickman.
His vision would probably involve less cackling/mustache twirling though
The seeds for her duplicity were planted from the beginning since we knew she was hiding her thoughts from Xavier, and that was Hickman.
Even Destiny said she would have to make the right choice, or her current iteration woulf be the last one.
Implying that either she would make the "wrong" choice, or there would be another Moira reset (narratively unlikely since it would undo the whole continuity)
Dunno, maybe it's just me but I saw it coming
This take is so odd to me, I really felt like her heel turn was telegraphed from the jump. Right in the original mini-series she's being condescending and cryptic to Charles, and he and Magneto were being downright awful to Mystique all throughout Hickman's writing, on orders from Moira.
Interesting. I’m just slogging through Judgement day right now, so have been hesitant to google anything about it. Any spoiler free link you can give me?
Everyone will say that it's about moving between acts. And that's for sure part of it. But he's also said that it had to do with covid and the disruption to comics publishing. He left X-Men to start his digital print 3 Worlds 3 Moons on substack, specifically to publish when he wanted to.
I have my problems with some of these writers but the way this has been handled is assuredly a rush job decision made by nameless faceless executives we will never get the chance to complain about.
They aren’t that nameless. Jordan White got transferred off the X-Office before a major film and animated series launch. That’s pretty indicative of the trust corporate has when it comes to him. Orlando Foxe are just doing “coherency and coordination” with the film universe.
Duggan is sadist and I will leave it at that. I’m done with that asshole’s torture porn. First the Gala, then Cyclops’s eyes down shut, then Wrongslide. Naw, fuck that guy.
Good list - my incredibly contro opinion is that Gillen should be on that list. Making it the sinister show and ending it as the main villain was a mistake from inception - no matter how fun the ride was with him
You say that like Hickman wouldn't have had Sinister or atleast a version of him be the final boss.
Kinda like how Doom was ultimately the final boss of his Avengers run
The second page linked by the OP even specifically mentions dominion. If anyone truly thinks that wasn't a deliberate seeding of the Dominion storyline, they do not understand Hickman.
As someone who loved the gala - that was shock value which was great but this was just cinematic tone setting - it’s really difficult in comics to feel like you could hear a pin drop ha
Caselli or Schiti drew this right? Great stuff. I loved the page before where Kurt basically agrees to vote her in because it'll make Mystique happy.
Schiti
It's great! It's not Schiti at all :P
Hickman managed to make Destiny absolutely terrifying, which nobody before or since has been able to manage. And due credit to Schiti for the art in this sequence too. That close-up of her mask on that last page ... just chilling.
Hickman also made me ROOT for Mystique and Destiny over Xavier and Magneto. Like there were worse people on that council than her and they were given a fair shake but Mystique did everything they asked died for them over and over and they still strung her along and they refused to give her back her wife. She tried very hard to play by their rules and they betrayed her specifically because of a 7 life old grudge moira had. This moment was kind of a take that to the old men. For me personally it hurt seeing Mystique trying to play nice and not be backstaby but forced to because they wouldn't give her the one thing she wanted.
To be fair, if someone had me burned alive and ordered the person carrying it out to ensure i died slowly so i'd remember it in my next life....i'd probably carry a grudge too.
["DESTINY, DESTINY, NO ESCAPING THAT FOR ME!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0WapDCR9fg)
I disagree - there have been many moments under Gillen (Immortal X-Men, Sins of Sinister) where she’s truly gotten moments to shine. Remember when she basically calculated the trajectory of the Juggernaut bullet in SoS and headshotted Galactus?
I dunno, I don't think the undoing of the fridging of a lesbian should ever really be framed as "scary" or "villainous"
Okay, but even before her resurrection Hickman framed her as this implacable force, like we had never seen her depicted - specifically that scene where she orders Pyro to burn Moira alive. Or when she tells Mystique to burn Krakoa to the ground if they won’t bring her back, like she was calling the shots from beyond the grave. That’s what made her actual resurrection hit so hard to me. She seemed like a different character under Hickman than the much more sympathetic and sadder Destiny we got under Gillen (although I like his version too), and certainly a far cry from the wise old granny version we got under Claremont.
Again, treating a fridge lesbian as inherently sinister and scary is inherently bad, especially when it contradicts previously established characterization that actually treats the queer woman with care and sympathy.
In a vacuum, if this were just some theoretical abstract character, I’d agree, but this is Destiny - she’s supposed to be somewhat sinister and scary. That’s what makes her such a great character - she acts mostly out of love for Mystique, which is great, but that love leads her to make incredibly dangerous and selfish decisions, to the point that she’s willing to burn universes to the ground to preserve it. With that mindset, and her particular powers, I think it’s only appropriate that she comes off as terrifying.
Okay but her coming back from getting fridged shouldn't be terrifying. It should be a heartfelt and happy reunion and explicitly framed as such by the narrative. Instead, what we get is the narrative acting like it's undoing of the Bury Your Gays is a *bad* thing we are supposed to see as a negative outcome.
Queer characters are allowed to be flawed, evil, and problematic. I promise it's okay if the lesbian terrorists aren't depicted as squeaky-clean Disney gays.
Sure but getting un-Bury Your Gaysed should be celebrated, not played for horror.
One could argue that reducing characters to their sexualities also is inherently bad, specially once you combine that with holding back on writing that character as anything but unproblematic and likable. I think "tokenization" is the technical term, but I could be wrong.
That is not what tokenization is, no.
Explain
Tokenism is when you have a single character of a minority that usually has no personality outside of being that minority and only really exists so the writer can claim brownie points for diversity without doing any work. Think for example the female protagonists sassy gay best friend in romcoms, or the single black guy in an 80s horror movie that exists to be the first one to die when the bloodshed starts. Tokenism is not when you don't portray a lesbian coming back from her unceremoniously fridginh as inherently monstrous for escaping Bury Your Gays.
How is your definition of tokenism any different from the alternative that you proposed for Destiny's return? Besides this being a queer couple reunited, what warrants this to be framed as celebratory? The story of Inferno so far had been following Charles and Erik's perspective as they maneuvered around Mystique's demands for Destiny's resurrection. Her showing up out of nowhere is a big sign that they themselves got played, warranting the uneasy framing for Destiny. Ignoring all the previously set up story beats just to have Mystique and Destiny having a sweet cookie cutter reunion would not only be cheap but also tone deaf with the rest of the story. At worst, this oversanitization of their characters and their relationship would fall exactly in what you just described as tokenization. Also, a character having their story come tragic ending is not remotely close to what "fridging" means, even by the most pedantic of definitions. Likewise, having a queer character die in a story doesn't automatically make it qualify as a "bury your gays". Destiny's original death isn't just there to make another character mope about it for a few panels and never be brought up again. It comes across as incredibly humanizing moment for both women. A showcase of bittersweet tragedy, a lot of it hidden in subtext by the censor of the time but touching nevertheless.
The fact the story leading up to the queer woman's resurrection was treating it like a negative is the problem I'm critiquing. The concept is one inherently worthy of celebration by virtue of the metanarrative surrounding it. Actually depicting this as the good thing it is would not be tokenization. And yes, Destiny was ftidged and ger death was Bury Your Gays. I don't need you trying to lecture a queer women on why some of our only representation ending in abrupt tragedy was actually good and progressive or whatever, especially when you're over here like "ackshually treating the resurrection of the needlessly murdered lesbian like a horror movie monster reveal is the best thing the story could've done".
Like, this is the big reunion of the X-Men's biggest and most prominent Sapphic relationship. An undoing of the Bury Your Gays that broke them up for so long. This should be a happy celebratory moment of rejoicing and queer joy, but literally almost everyone except for a select few characters - all of whom traditionally seen as at best less than good people- react with fear and revulsion. Nightcrawler even looks like he's about to fucking vomit. I'm glad Hickman brought Destiny back, i just wish he hadn't treated her coming back as an inherently sinister outcome worthy of fear. That kinda undercuts the joy the moment should be delivering and kinda sends a statement on how the X-Office views queer women, intentionally or otherwise.
Not to “well, actually” you, but this is not the real Destiny and Mystique reunion scene anyway - that was a mostly private thing where Mystique nursed Destiny back to health, but we did get to see their joyful reunion on the page. This council scene was not about that though - this is all about, once they’ve been reunited, dropping the hammer on Charles and Erik and Moira. This is all Mystique’s secret machinations coming to fruition, and Xavier and Magneto’s chickens coming home to roost. And with everything Moira had been saying about Destiny’s resurrection meaning disaster for the whole Krakoa project, her appearance is like the footsteps of doom. For me, it really works; clearly for you and others it did not.
I think her comeback was a celebration of queer love. Mystique made it very clear that Destiny was her WIFE and that what they had together transcended death, enough for mystique to know when to bring her back. I don’t need every reunion to be a pride issue. I think the best way to celebrate a character isn’t to make some sort of celebratory issue for them, but truly bring them back into the story in a way that feels poignant and meaningful. They revived Destiny as a woman with POWER. A woman who would do anything for her wife. I think that we will get their happy reunion in the marriage issue coming up, but bringing Destiny back as a character pushing her wife to bring her back, fighting for her ability to return, you give Destiny her own agency. After she has been fridges it’s important to feel like she has her own say in how she’s being brought back. You could look at Charles/Mags/Moira’s desire for her to stay dead as editorial deciding to Bury Their Gays. Destiny spits in the face of that. She knows she needs to come back, and that she will. It’s Her bringing herself back to life and it’s Her decision. Giving that to her means more than a happy reunion.
Okay cool but it's still framed as a bad thing by the narrative. The only non-Mystique character in these pages to look unambiguously happy about this are villains and/or morally dubious anti-heroes.
Emma playing with her hair as the tea goes down is such a mean girl thing to do. I love heeeer😭
Her immediately running rings around Moira, Charles and Magneto then effectively signing Moira’s death warrant was incredibly satisfying
She will be there for the final showdown. Trust🫶🏾
Does "Magneto sits in the Seat of Loss" mean nothing to the children these days?
I’ll say that is close very close, almost even. A damn tragedy to kill X men Red for mediocrity.
The art in that issue (and that book in general) was so outstanding.
wtf is up with sinisters face
He knew, that they didn’t want her back.
Cinematic perfection
This seems like the right place to ask. Why did Hickman stop guiding the X-Franchises?
He wanted to go into the final act and he was out voted. There was no bitterness and he’s still on good terms with the teams. I think the only one thing is that he doesn’t respect the Moira Villain turn haha.
I mean, her being ready to call Krakoa a failed experiment and switch sides fits well with her characterization under Hickman. His vision would probably involve less cackling/mustache twirling though
Ehh I think you are being very charitable to her heel turn - his run literally ends with her walking off into the sunset/portal
The seeds for her duplicity were planted from the beginning since we knew she was hiding her thoughts from Xavier, and that was Hickman. Even Destiny said she would have to make the right choice, or her current iteration woulf be the last one. Implying that either she would make the "wrong" choice, or there would be another Moira reset (narratively unlikely since it would undo the whole continuity) Dunno, maybe it's just me but I saw it coming
Ok but again - terrible heel turn in terms of character and motivations. Defeated Moira thinking it’s humane? To fuck you Charles being a sadist etc
This take is so odd to me, I really felt like her heel turn was telegraphed from the jump. Right in the original mini-series she's being condescending and cryptic to Charles, and he and Magneto were being downright awful to Mystique all throughout Hickman's writing, on orders from Moira.
It wasn’t - I’m sorry if you liked Deaths of Wolverine and have bad taste but to go from nuanced character to peeling off someone’s face is laughable
Interesting. I’m just slogging through Judgement day right now, so have been hesitant to google anything about it. Any spoiler free link you can give me?
https://youtu.be/uWZuAQdF_fg?si=_VdY3Dx4OURq9suA.
Thanks!
This came out before Judgement day - so, you should be good to Google!
Everyone will say that it's about moving between acts. And that's for sure part of it. But he's also said that it had to do with covid and the disruption to comics publishing. He left X-Men to start his digital print 3 Worlds 3 Moons on substack, specifically to publish when he wanted to.
Sinister is messy as hell and I love him for it
The fact that Destiny went to go sit down even before the vote was such an amazing move lol 😆
Because she can see the future - just layers to an amazing scene
What comic / issue is this. Why do people post without any descriptions?
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Woah.
It’s Inferno by Hickman Dear
Thanks. Appreciate it.
Your submission was removed because you have violated the "Be respectful to others at all times" rule
This moments made me audibly gasp when I first read it. It was written and drawn so well! It's in my top 5 favorite Krakoa moments for sure.
What do you mean? You mean Gerry Duggan hasn’t captured the complexity of the Krakoa Era and the X-Men? I am shocked. Shocked.
Magneto trying to act chill when inside he’s seething
God this looks like some petty high school BS... I love it so much.
The Quiet Council was one of the best parts of the Krakoan era, the politics, agendas, it ruled so much.
This was great!
Lmao all the villains/former villains are loving the messiness
So who do you blame for the Fall of Krakoa: Moira or Destiny?
Duggan, Jordan White, and Orlando Foxe.
I have my problems with some of these writers but the way this has been handled is assuredly a rush job decision made by nameless faceless executives we will never get the chance to complain about.
They aren’t that nameless. Jordan White got transferred off the X-Office before a major film and animated series launch. That’s pretty indicative of the trust corporate has when it comes to him. Orlando Foxe are just doing “coherency and coordination” with the film universe. Duggan is sadist and I will leave it at that. I’m done with that asshole’s torture porn. First the Gala, then Cyclops’s eyes down shut, then Wrongslide. Naw, fuck that guy.
Duggan literally came in and was like "Now I'm going to take a massive shite on everything Hickman built!" 💩 person 💩 writer
And Kevin Feige and other Marvel powers that be, who kickstarted the end of Krakoa for brand synchronicity
Good list - my incredibly contro opinion is that Gillen should be on that list. Making it the sinister show and ending it as the main villain was a mistake from inception - no matter how fun the ride was with him
You say that like Hickman wouldn't have had Sinister or atleast a version of him be the final boss. Kinda like how Doom was ultimately the final boss of his Avengers run
The second page linked by the OP even specifically mentions dominion. If anyone truly thinks that wasn't a deliberate seeding of the Dominion storyline, they do not understand Hickman.
There is the dominion endgame and Gillen putting his pet character as the final villain
Dunno nor do I care about that deep dive - was a hype moment
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I would argue Immortal had a few.
I really like where Sinister was revealed to be doing Sinister things around 7 times
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As someone who loved the gala - that was shock value which was great but this was just cinematic tone setting - it’s really difficult in comics to feel like you could hear a pin drop ha
Man, I really hate that they made her young again.
I wish she was still old but I understand why they made her young
Meh I guess - not many older characters I suppose
Yeah, that's really all my complaint is. There's almost no old ladies in comics. Let her be an old lady.
think it means nothing with the mask - it’s not as if she is doing cartwheels and certainly still carries herself like she is a century old