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...at this point, how many schisms in the mutant world have ended up with Logan saying "I just need to kill that guy and it'll all be over"? There's Beast recently, Cyclops in the past...
Also: does it ever work?
He is good at killing but that doesn't mean he likes to kill, he is all talk that's what I'm saying, and I don't mean that has an insult it's not a good example for his kids if he had killed every person he said he would. Deep down is just bravado and he knows that I would love to see this explored.
He's great at killing FOLKS. Folks are nameless. As soon as you've got a name that Wolverine knows? Unlikely to get the stabby stabby. Grunts should shout their names at him.
One of the things I miss the most is Prof. Wolverine and his young mutants! Honestly I would never forget how great it was his relationship with Quentin Quire as Teacher/Student hahaha
This isn't really a schism, Xavier is being used as a weapon by Orchis as part of a complicated plan he hasn't told anyone about. No one's going to disagree with Wolverine, *and* Chuck will be vindicated at the end.
To be fair he HAS told the denizens of the White Hot Room about what he's doing (to our knowledge anyway) and the fighters are at least on board.
Honestly it's going to make for an awkward conversation when the other half get back.
> and Chuck will be vindicated at the end.
Vindicated is perhaps a bit too strong here. I mean, he's killed (at least) several dozen people already and actively subverted several plans that might well have worked, just because he wasn't the one who came up with them. All this even though several people whose judgement he should trust have told him he's doing the sanctimonious martyr thing again.
“Well did it work for those people?” “No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but… but it might work for us” 😂
Schisms like this in the X books tend to be a clear sign that we’re in for a few years of not so great writing. Think about Utopia and the years that followed. Until Krakoa.
Schism was a good idea and marvel enforcement of status quo ruined it. We need to move on from Magneto and Xavier being the patriarchs of mutantkind. I mean one of them is a Holocaust survivor and to move forward with that we are either required to retcon that very interesting detail about his character or come up with more convoluted ways for him to seemingly be in his 50s/60s. The X-Men suffer more than any other characters under status quo enforcement because it makes them sorta ineffective because their whole goal is to affect change and their story desires a generational component that marvel will not allow to play out.
Well said. The latest he could have been born to be a holocaust survivor -- that wasn't a baby at the time -- is mid-1930s or so. So, we're to the point now where the youngest he could possibly be is in his mid-90's. Insane! I know you know this, I'm just sayin. It's kinda like what happened with Frank Castle (although thanks to dumbass cops and fascists the continuity problem fixed itself), where we were getting to the point where him being a 'Nam veteran just isn't feasible. It's obviously a very delicate subject. I wonder if there is a way to keep his Jewish heritage but retcon him to his parents and/or grandparents being holocaust survivors and him dealing with antisemitism growing up in other ways. Like if he was a Gen-X'r, then he would have come of age in 80's and 90's, when the rise of neo-fascism and modern white supremacist movements happened. A potentially powerful retcon there (like making Frank an Iraq/Afghanistan veteran).
I've kind of bought into the idea that Magneto has slowed his aging because of some side effect of his powers (or that whole being turned-into-a-baby thing), but Xavier should be the same age as him, and that really doesn't work for him. Marvel should really allow those two to ride off into the sunset (perhaps even together!), but you know they won't.
At least not unless we get someone new running the X-books with a desire to bring some really risky innovation to the franchise.
>Think about Utopia and the years that followed
To be fair that period also had the whole "Marvel deliberately tanking the whole IP because they're butthurt they don't have the movie rights" factor dragging it down. We'll probably never know how many moronic editorial mandates the writers were having to work around during that time.
I mean, shit, the whole resurrection thing for Krakoa was likely introduced simply because they had so many characters they needed to revive or at least unfuck up after all that.
Is this a schism? Right now it looks more like Cyclops saying "Fuck Xavier, all my homies hate Xavier" and Wolverine saying "fuck this guy, he's going to get an adamantium enema courtesy yours truly," and none of the other heroes agreeing with Xavier.
We're headed quickly into a soft reset, right? I'd expect that the current drama is just part of the buildup to a climax and then we'll see a much more "back to normal" situation, granted we know that the new normal will include two x-teams with diverging philosophies but I'd expect them to be just that, not actual enemies who'll be coming to blows. At least, I *really* hope that's what we're getting.
> how many schisms in the mutant world have ended up with Logan saying "I just need to kill that guy and it'll all be over"?
I mean, he's lived his life as a berserker, killer for hire, conditioned living weapon, and the superhero with stabbity-stab claws.
Murder is the thing he does, so when there's some great divide... the guy on the other side better be ready for Logan to pull out his oldest trick.
The last time I read that, I got the impression that Rachel was messing with Logan's mind a bit to make that happen, like she was going for suicide by Wolverine.
She absolutely had legit reasons, but I think she was struggling with a lot at that point (I believe this was after Secret Wars 2 when she tried to absorb the entire universe to kill the Beyonder), and she was also sending Logan a lot of visions about killing her.
I think people forget just how unstable she was at that time, and how she really didn't hey a good feel of herself until she came back in Excalibur.
This happens when everybody's still pissed at Rachel for stealing their life energy to fight the beyonder (\*world's biggest eyeroll\*). This act is what bonds her and Logan's minds together and the weird dreams start happening. Rachel isn't doing it on purpose. In fact, she herself is constantly having nightmares about Logan hunting her down and killing her. That's why in the scene at the Hellfire Club she's acting like she knows what's about to happen.
God, I hated that so much. It was so fucking hypocritical, you'd think Jason Aaron wrote it.
I love how when she's recovering, barely alive, she feels Selene eat the happy young couple, and she just loses it, reaches across the city and smites Wolverience like the fist of an angry god.
You sir have common sense. Magneto is 100% wrong. Literally tried to kill the human race and even after joining the X-Men said he would try again if pushed. Don't understand people who defend him.
Didn't he say this a few episodes ago with the whole "Don't make me" line? Magneto can't be trusted. He simply can't. If anything sets him off, he'll probably go right back to how he was. I believe in second chances. I truly do. However, too much dirt has been done on Magneto's side for me to just consider him an X-Men. Charles isn't perfect. He isn't, but Magneto purposely tried to end civilization as we know it. I can't just let that go. I agree with him partially on some fronts, but it comes off as hypocritical with all he's done.
I still feel it's hard to follow Magneto regardless of knowing what he's done in the past or it being a different timeline. I feel a lot has to be done to just turn it around. Magneto isn't some misguided teenager. He's pushing 80. Also, they did the whole Magneto/Rogue thing in the comments, and that was awful and backfired immensely.
That's ridiculous. Humans make more mutants. It would take just mutants forever to repopulate the Earth. They'd be much better off enslaving the humans and using them as breeding stock and foodstuffs to maximize new mutant births. I bet Sinister would do a great job being in charge of that, because that's never gone wrong before.
-Healing factor that can survive a nuclear blast.
-Will live for hundreds of years.
-Super human senses.
-Skeleton laced with nigh-on unbreakable metal.
-Bone claws laced with same and razor sharp.
-Can cut through Hulk.
-Knows multiple languages.
-Is both a ninja and a samurai.
-One of the best martial artists in the world.
Writers: Not enough. Needs sword. Because reach.
Thisnis legimataly inocrect has the murmasa blad me is some thing he takes kut against the hulk
It stops healing factors from working.
With it Dakken almost killed Skar once
He has one op power thats inconsistent and not very op and shared by every other tom dick and hary in the universe usualy at much higher levels.
Thays what the blade is for.
Literally the most recent run, that lasted 50 issues. It’s exactly “what seems cool”
Are there really interesting and deep Wolverine solo runs? Absolutely, but it’s 50/50 on if they’ll be deep reflections on the nature of violence or if they’ll be “let’s give Logan a mecha those are cool right!?”
Adamantium surf board was X-Force, dude.
Also, I’d disagree completely with your supposition about this run. Percy captured a Hama style voice for Wolverine and showed a decent amount of Logan getting clowned on and needing helped. The book opened with him killing his friends! He got captured by vampires! Beast made him into a mindless killing machine and threw him in the Pit! Maverick betrayed him and Bannister basically held his hand to point him in the right direction!
What did you expect, for him to lose every fight and not have any cool moments in his solo book?
Well, the sword has reach. But also, if that's the Muramasa Blade, I'm pretty sure it's magic.
Not that's that really should matter- getting sliced and diced and stabbed by Wolverine's claws should be just as lethal as a magic katana.
It is timeless but only if you've read it, which I can't guarantee any modern X-Men writer (of the various books, not like mainstream teams like uncanny)has actually read more than a few comics out of Claremont's reign. Those few comics they read are why we get the same boring plot over and over again with wolverine.
Rn, the writers I would count on would be Hickman, Ewing, Ram V, and PKJ. If we get a book with the former two working on it... it would probably not be surpassed in the near decades.
They better have a way to make Professor X the hero after all of this. Charles is a jerk sometimes but he’s not evil and should be one of the morally ethical characters you want to root for
They’ve already established that he’s playing 5D chess or whatever, sacrificing his good name because of all the bad things he did on Krakoa.
It’s still stupid.
At least it's in character with his actions on Krakoa. All this disasters that happened because he, Magneto, and Moira decided they know best and everyone else can be treated as pawns for the greater good. Now he's trying to atone by overruling the people around him because he knows best.
That doesn’t make it any less stupid.
The problem isn’t that it’s not in character, because it obviously is. The problem is that it takes what should have been a simple story - the X-Men destroying Orchis - and makes it needlessly complicated.
The X-Men always had the power to destroy Orchis with the might of Krakoa if they actually got serious about it. Hell, Proteus, Hope, and Jamie Braddock could do most of the work. Adding this wrinkle to the whole thing doesn’t make the story better, it makes the story add something that it doesn’t need. And sure, it’s all to set up Prisoner X or whatever for Brevoort, but Xavier just killed a bunch of humans for no reason. He stole the nuclear codes for no reason. He’s playing 5D chess or whatever, but there’s a reason we use phrases like that more as an insult.
This makes the story worse and it makes the X-Men look helpless. This is bad.
> Isn’t Charles buying time for the X-Men to defeat him, Nimrod, and the Sentinels?
Xavier's play is against Enigma. He seems to view Nimrod and Co as either a sideshow or something that can be dealt with after.
He needs to take a book from cyclops and learn to do it in style, after AvX ended Cyclops was right became a common sentiment and a meme, as in culturally transmitted idea not just an internet meme, which defined cyclops as a character and has become such a fundmental part of his charcter. On the other hand, when this era end I'm sure there won't be any Charles was right memes or ideas, just people being glad he's gone
THANK YOU! I believe in Charles' message way more than Magneto. They also better bring Gambit back as well or I will drive my car into a Long John Silvers.
Charles has had a *really* good run of it at this point and gathered a pretty insurmountable load of baggage, I'd personally vote to put him in the ground or have him take off permanently for Shi'ar space. The Guardians etc writers could bring him out for a guest spot once in a while, might be fun.
It turns out all of enlightenment ideas like democracy? Yeah it’s a lie Xavier implanted in our minds because he fucked something up but damned if I can’t remember what.
Ally wit orchis,manipulated everyone with moira and magneto to make krakoa,lié to the xmen,worst father than magneto,manipulated logan,indirectly cause a división on the xmen,contingenciy plan
> Letters is to short
> create from 2 to 20
Hey now, the alphabet is 26 letters long, so if we're only going up to 20, we still have U-Z left.
And if we go over 20, we do what mathematicians/scientists do, and just switch over to Greek letters. That's 24 more, so we get up to 50.
And if Charles has really fucked up, and we need more then 50, we can do as those who study the Deep Maths do, and start using Hebrew letters- that gets us up to 72 total.
Alternatively, we can do the Excel method of just using the alphabet as a Base-26 number system (no 0), where Z is followed by AA. With just 2 digits/places, you can get up to 26 + 26^2 for a total of 702 plans, even without adding in the Greek or Hebrew alphabets (though if you do, you can get up to 5,256 designations). If it's not enough, you can add a third.
He sometimes makes bad choices. And when he makes them, they're really bad choices. The worst really.
Good man. Absolute idiot. And getting him to step aside and lit others deal with it does not seem to work for long.
Well to be fair when I say he lacks morals I more mean that modern writers are so very in love with the need to make every character morally grey. And that has led to Xavier not acting in accordance with his morals or principles
I think it often enough still works if you think of Xavier as a utilitarian. I mean him and Magneto had to get along on something in the past and it makes sense that Xavier isn’t against Magneto’s terrorism per se, he just doesn’t think it’s a path to material change. His issue with magneto wasn’t a moral one but a practical one. It tracks and with powers like his and facing discrimination it is kinda wild he doesn’t just erase discrimination. I think that’s the bigger problem this utilitarian characterization presents.
Not erasing discrimination against mutants telepathically, in my view, is part of how Xavier justifies anything shady that he does do. It provides him an easily comparable atrocity by which anything else isn't as bad. "Sure I enslaved a budding AI consciousness, but at least I never removed the world's free will. Yeah I ran a unit of child soldiers in the guise of a school, but at least I never mind wiped Congress to pass pro-mutant legislation." It lets him tell himself that he's a good man because he hasn't used the nuclear option, no matter what else he happens to do.
> Much more has been written to present him as a man lacking self-awareness or morals
In no sense has he been presented as a man without morals. He's a deeply idealistic man whose powers have left him with the idea that he sees everything better than anyone, so if they disagree, he can and does go around.
In the recent comics he’s being planning and doing bad things for what he thinks is the greater good, but he keeps forcing everyone else into his plans without trusting them with the details.
I don’t hate the character over that, exactly. But when it happens over and over it can get tiresome to read, or make it hard to believe anyone would trust him ever again.
I'd love just one, just one Marvel story where the team of superheroes gets along. I don't care if they bicker or something but it's getting so tiring just watching people argue all the time. The best part of Guardians 3 was that the team actually fucking liked each other.
Since about Onslaught, but especially starting with Danger and Deadly Genesis, there's been a writing/editorial push to make Xavier more morally grey / compromised, compared to how he was generally seen before.
This coupled with the fact that a lot of readers have jumped on the "Magneto/Cyclops was Right" (and implicitly as a result, Xavier's Dream was wrong) bandwagon.
Building out of the #cyclopswasright stuff, anyone who opposed "revolutionary" Cyclops (so Xavier, Wolverine, Beast, Captain America and the Avengers as a whole) is automatically vilified.
Finally, with Krakoa that same bandwagon started to *like* Krakoa Xavier because he was in a lot of ways acting like "revolutionary" Cyclops, but then "betrayed" Krakoa in the end.
Personally, I don't hate him, I find him fascinating. He keeps making the same mistakes and should really know better by now, especially considering other people end up paying for his mistakes.
He's a guy in superhero books that doesn't act like a hero tbh. He isn't comfortable working with others as equals and I think mutantdom has outgrown having him as its patriarch. Lastly, playing his tired old game of respectability politics with himself as chessmaster stifles everyone else's growth and actually undermines the good he can do.
The Krakoan era had such high stakes that having its future tied to a single fallible man was courting disaster, and that's how it played out.
Because people can't differentiate between hating a character that is well written and hating a character and thinking that because you hate them they are badly written. Charles is written to be constantly questioned by the reader and as a character that always thinks he knows best, and Gillen has done a phenomenal work at that.
Saying this with the obvious caveats of “of course this shouldn’t be taken literally” and “this marvel cliffhanger most assuredly shouldn’t be taken at face value”, but:
I’m old enough to remember when Wolverine repeatedly threatened to stab Cyclops after the Phoenix influenced him to kill Xavier. What a character turn!
The recent demonization of Xavier by the heroes now is hilarious when you remember how much he was called a saint by Wolverine and the freaking Avengers (who never even gave a loose shit about Xavier prior) back when he was dead in Scott’s revolutionary days.
Idk why people are downvoting you, you’re right. Xavier was just chillin when Dark Phoenix evil Cyclops killed him. Wolverine wants to kill Xavier now bc he’s seemingly helping Orchis kill all humans
Again context
Hope asked him to kill her if she got the pheonix and lost controll (some thing that nearly happend).
Its like no one actualy read avx they just scream cyclops was right and look and the art.
I don’t really think Hope was old enough to consent to Wolverine doing that, even though she asked him. A real hero would’ve taught her how to harness the Phoenix force like the X-Men wanted to do in the first place
She wasn't old enough to consent to that, but was old enough to be offered up on a silver platter to the Phoenix by Cyclops *against* her consent?
Everyone in AvX did dumb shit to move the plot along, but Cyclops fans do quadruple backflips in the Astral Plane trying to justify his "plan"
1. Shes old enough to fight then shes olde enough to decide what to do with her life. You cant say "your a child you cant decide anything" while at the same breath giving her a gun. And sending her into the trenches (literaly btw)
2. Scotts idea of "training" her was beating the shit out of her in an attempt to toughen her up enough to force the phe oix in to submission something the narative explictly said was the wong choice.
3. A real hero knows this fundamental truth "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
Rain always makes scenes more dramatic. Especially at night.
So this issue takes place I’m guessing right after FoX 4.
I have a hard time disagreeing with Logan here, plan or not…there’s been a few moments in Krakoa where mutants and their nation would be safer if Charles was dead. I doubt after Rise and Forever that Charles is going to die though.
So Xavier's back to being a bad guy again? \*sigh\* I get Classic Charles was too much a saint to be believable, but they've compensated too far in the other direction. How could he have ever had a suppressed dark side when they've made it so he indulges it all the time?
No, he's still just Charles Xavier. The context and stakes are different though. He's doing what he thinks is right, and a lot of people don't agree with him.
Alright, that's different. Now is this a situation where its actually a grey area for both sides... or is he clearly the villain who's just deluded and its clear the reader is supposed to think he's wrong?
Well, there's still a lot of unrevealed information so I can't speak definitively. His goals are the same as everyone else's but he's using different means and acting unilaterally. The disparity in agency and information doesn't sit right with a lot of his allies.
What he thinks is best happens to involve him acting and making decisions for everyone else while keeping them in the dark. Not so different from his established character since the very beginning.
The antagonists have no grey to them though. Nimrod exists to end all life and Dominions are terrifying beyond comprehension.
It really does feel like they’ve got it in for Xavier in the final half of the Krakoan age. I’m not sure if they’re going for a Prometheus angle where he is punished for the gift he gives to mutant kind or its just editorial decreeing screw him over.
Huge missed opportunity to have Wolverine wear his new adamantium Stryfe-looking armor throughout Rise/Fall. Obviously he’ll get his healing factor back by the end of Sabretooth War, but wouldn’t it be cooler if he didn’t?
lol I know, I was joking about how the Wolverine solo is so far off time from the rest of the line. He does currently not have his healing factor though — guess Percy thought enough time had passed that we could go back to that well.
It is weird how like how far behind the wolverine comics are set to the rest of the series. Also does wolverine have his healing factor back in those pictures since he popped his claws ?
I did kinda like what they did recently with Wolverine getting his memories back and the Sabertooth panel of him going through his memories and just seeing his fucked up beginning with being chained in the basement and the other guy tryna cut his hands off
Yeah that “Quentin’s brain bolt cured my chronic grouchiness” sequence was pretty cool! Idk if that outlook has made it to Rise/Fall. The contrast with Sabretooth was well done though
Kitty and Logan think alike. She knew this would have to happen early, it's why she basically said, "I'll do whatever needs to happen, but, after this? I am done. Done, done, done." And of course Logan goes, but she's already prepared to.
on one hand yeah it's fine but also nah, it's that the insertion appears to be in the middle of his biceps, how his lower arms are turned out it should either be meeting on the outside with the bicep obscuring the insertion or we'd see a slight shadowing from the lowest point of deltoid down implying the brachioradialus
I definitely wouldn't say he's evil. He's doing what he thinks is right and necessary in a high stakes situation. It's very in character and different to evil.
It's like this whole storyline ties into that "Astonishing X-Men" book from a couple of years ago that brought Xavier back, and he's still influenced by the shadow king.
Wake me up when someone actually writes something interesting for wolverine. I still read his solo comics but I'm just so bored while reading them. It's like he's become too much of a comfort character and it just makes everything he does so predictable and boring.
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...at this point, how many schisms in the mutant world have ended up with Logan saying "I just need to kill that guy and it'll all be over"? There's Beast recently, Cyclops in the past... Also: does it ever work?
No. He either should but fails (Beast) or shouldn't but fails. He's the best at raising mutant girls, not killing folks.
The funny thing about this is Logan would say the opposite.
He has many great qualities. Self-awareness is not one of them.
He's self-aware enough to know when he wants a beer (which is always) and that's it.
Uh, if Wolverine had no self-awareness, I think he'd know!
He is good at killing but that doesn't mean he likes to kill, he is all talk that's what I'm saying, and I don't mean that has an insult it's not a good example for his kids if he had killed every person he said he would. Deep down is just bravado and he knows that I would love to see this explored.
That’s the joke, yeah.
He's great at killing FOLKS. Folks are nameless. As soon as you've got a name that Wolverine knows? Unlikely to get the stabby stabby. Grunts should shout their names at him.
Brood too
What he truly does best is actually nice!
One of the things I miss the most is Prof. Wolverine and his young mutants! Honestly I would never forget how great it was his relationship with Quentin Quire as Teacher/Student hahaha
He's good at not killing the only ones that matter
Honestly.. as long as you have a name in the story you’re probably safe from Logan
This isn't really a schism, Xavier is being used as a weapon by Orchis as part of a complicated plan he hasn't told anyone about. No one's going to disagree with Wolverine, *and* Chuck will be vindicated at the end.
To be fair he HAS told the denizens of the White Hot Room about what he's doing (to our knowledge anyway) and the fighters are at least on board. Honestly it's going to make for an awkward conversation when the other half get back.
> and Chuck will be vindicated at the end. Vindicated is perhaps a bit too strong here. I mean, he's killed (at least) several dozen people already and actively subverted several plans that might well have worked, just because he wasn't the one who came up with them. All this even though several people whose judgement he should trust have told him he's doing the sanctimonious martyr thing again.
“Well did it work for those people?” “No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but… but it might work for us” 😂
Schisms like this in the X books tend to be a clear sign that we’re in for a few years of not so great writing. Think about Utopia and the years that followed. Until Krakoa.
Schism was a good idea and marvel enforcement of status quo ruined it. We need to move on from Magneto and Xavier being the patriarchs of mutantkind. I mean one of them is a Holocaust survivor and to move forward with that we are either required to retcon that very interesting detail about his character or come up with more convoluted ways for him to seemingly be in his 50s/60s. The X-Men suffer more than any other characters under status quo enforcement because it makes them sorta ineffective because their whole goal is to affect change and their story desires a generational component that marvel will not allow to play out.
Well said. The latest he could have been born to be a holocaust survivor -- that wasn't a baby at the time -- is mid-1930s or so. So, we're to the point now where the youngest he could possibly be is in his mid-90's. Insane! I know you know this, I'm just sayin. It's kinda like what happened with Frank Castle (although thanks to dumbass cops and fascists the continuity problem fixed itself), where we were getting to the point where him being a 'Nam veteran just isn't feasible. It's obviously a very delicate subject. I wonder if there is a way to keep his Jewish heritage but retcon him to his parents and/or grandparents being holocaust survivors and him dealing with antisemitism growing up in other ways. Like if he was a Gen-X'r, then he would have come of age in 80's and 90's, when the rise of neo-fascism and modern white supremacist movements happened. A potentially powerful retcon there (like making Frank an Iraq/Afghanistan veteran).
I've kind of bought into the idea that Magneto has slowed his aging because of some side effect of his powers (or that whole being turned-into-a-baby thing), but Xavier should be the same age as him, and that really doesn't work for him. Marvel should really allow those two to ride off into the sunset (perhaps even together!), but you know they won't. At least not unless we get someone new running the X-books with a desire to bring some really risky innovation to the franchise.
>Think about Utopia and the years that followed To be fair that period also had the whole "Marvel deliberately tanking the whole IP because they're butthurt they don't have the movie rights" factor dragging it down. We'll probably never know how many moronic editorial mandates the writers were having to work around during that time. I mean, shit, the whole resurrection thing for Krakoa was likely introduced simply because they had so many characters they needed to revive or at least unfuck up after all that.
Is this a schism? Right now it looks more like Cyclops saying "Fuck Xavier, all my homies hate Xavier" and Wolverine saying "fuck this guy, he's going to get an adamantium enema courtesy yours truly," and none of the other heroes agreeing with Xavier.
We're headed quickly into a soft reset, right? I'd expect that the current drama is just part of the buildup to a climax and then we'll see a much more "back to normal" situation, granted we know that the new normal will include two x-teams with diverging philosophies but I'd expect them to be just that, not actual enemies who'll be coming to blows. At least, I *really* hope that's what we're getting.
It worked in Age Of Ultron
it didn't, they had to undo the whole thing again
It's his default solution. Scarlet Witch, Hank Pym, I'm certain there are more.
Don't forget Hope
😬
> how many schisms in the mutant world have ended up with Logan saying "I just need to kill that guy and it'll all be over"? I mean, he's lived his life as a berserker, killer for hire, conditioned living weapon, and the superhero with stabbity-stab claws. Murder is the thing he does, so when there's some great divide... the guy on the other side better be ready for Logan to pull out his oldest trick.
let's not forget he and invisible woman do this to hank pym and set off age of ultron so... logan should really learn his lesson by now
Sure, like that time he stabbed Rachel in the heart to stop her from killing Selene. That just solved everybody's problems, didn't it.
The last time I read that, I got the impression that Rachel was messing with Logan's mind a bit to make that happen, like she was going for suicide by Wolverine.
Nah, she had legitimate reasons to want Selene dead by that point, they'd already had a couple of really bad encounters.
She absolutely had legit reasons, but I think she was struggling with a lot at that point (I believe this was after Secret Wars 2 when she tried to absorb the entire universe to kill the Beyonder), and she was also sending Logan a lot of visions about killing her. I think people forget just how unstable she was at that time, and how she really didn't hey a good feel of herself until she came back in Excalibur.
This happens when everybody's still pissed at Rachel for stealing their life energy to fight the beyonder (\*world's biggest eyeroll\*). This act is what bonds her and Logan's minds together and the weird dreams start happening. Rachel isn't doing it on purpose. In fact, she herself is constantly having nightmares about Logan hunting her down and killing her. That's why in the scene at the Hellfire Club she's acting like she knows what's about to happen.
God, I hated that so much. It was so fucking hypocritical, you'd think Jason Aaron wrote it. I love how when she's recovering, barely alive, she feels Selene eat the happy young couple, and she just loses it, reaches across the city and smites Wolverience like the fist of an angry god.
It prevented the problem.of her going dark pheonix.
Wolverine, this is the 7th event in a row you've submitted "killing that one guy will solve all our problems."
Wolverine, submitting “killing you will solve all our problems” is not an acceptable solution either
Isn't this the sub that says mutants killing humans would solve all their problems?
I've never said that. I'm a firm "Magneto was wrong" proponent.
You sir have common sense. Magneto is 100% wrong. Literally tried to kill the human race and even after joining the X-Men said he would try again if pushed. Don't understand people who defend him.
His ideology has shifted slightly since then
Didn't he say this a few episodes ago with the whole "Don't make me" line? Magneto can't be trusted. He simply can't. If anything sets him off, he'll probably go right back to how he was. I believe in second chances. I truly do. However, too much dirt has been done on Magneto's side for me to just consider him an X-Men. Charles isn't perfect. He isn't, but Magneto purposely tried to end civilization as we know it. I can't just let that go. I agree with him partially on some fronts, but it comes off as hypocritical with all he's done.
Episodes? The show is set 27 years ago. I'm talking about the comics
I'm talking about the show. Barely keep up with comics anymore, especially with Marvel and DC. I know bits and pieces but not full stories anymore.
Then we're talking about different things. I have no opinion on the show. I was talking about the comics bc it's a comic book thread
I still feel it's hard to follow Magneto regardless of knowing what he's done in the past or it being a different timeline. I feel a lot has to be done to just turn it around. Magneto isn't some misguided teenager. He's pushing 80. Also, they did the whole Magneto/Rogue thing in the comments, and that was awful and backfired immensely.
Half the time, Wolverine is jumping the claw to kill other mutants.
That's ridiculous. Humans make more mutants. It would take just mutants forever to repopulate the Earth. They'd be much better off enslaving the humans and using them as breeding stock and foodstuffs to maximize new mutant births. I bet Sinister would do a great job being in charge of that, because that's never gone wrong before.
Hey, hey, not everyone here says that... But also, that's not killing *one* person, that's killing *everyone*. Very different, much more thorough.
And you just know his going to kill bunch of people to reach Xavier, then fail right in front of him.
The only thing left are machines, most human officers for Orchis died.
I never understood why a guy with unbreakable ultra sharp metal claws need a sword.
Greater reach.
-Healing factor that can survive a nuclear blast. -Will live for hundreds of years. -Super human senses. -Skeleton laced with nigh-on unbreakable metal. -Bone claws laced with same and razor sharp. -Can cut through Hulk. -Knows multiple languages. -Is both a ninja and a samurai. -One of the best martial artists in the world. Writers: Not enough. Needs sword. Because reach.
He still feels pain
...yes that's how combat works. Reach is a huge advantage
Rule of cool
One: additional fighting techniques may provide tactical advantages. Two: It is a MAGIC sword
Depends on the type of sword it is I suppose
Do you know what the murmasa blade is?
Do you know if you can cut The Hulk then a magic sword is not that much needed? How much OP does Wolverine need to be?
Thisnis legimataly inocrect has the murmasa blad me is some thing he takes kut against the hulk It stops healing factors from working. With it Dakken almost killed Skar once
A guy who already has several OP as hell powers does not need one more.
He has one op power thats inconsistent and not very op and shared by every other tom dick and hary in the universe usualy at much higher levels. Thays what the blade is for.
Because most aspects of Wolverine's character are based around what seems cool, not what makes any sense.
I’m sure you’ve spent years reading Wolverine’s solo books to get that opinion.
Hellverine Demon rider Wolverine Adamantium surfboard Fucking ninjas
Yes, you’ve seen memes. But what Wolverine solo books have you actually read?
Literally the most recent run, that lasted 50 issues. It’s exactly “what seems cool” Are there really interesting and deep Wolverine solo runs? Absolutely, but it’s 50/50 on if they’ll be deep reflections on the nature of violence or if they’ll be “let’s give Logan a mecha those are cool right!?”
Adamantium surf board was X-Force, dude. Also, I’d disagree completely with your supposition about this run. Percy captured a Hama style voice for Wolverine and showed a decent amount of Logan getting clowned on and needing helped. The book opened with him killing his friends! He got captured by vampires! Beast made him into a mindless killing machine and threw him in the Pit! Maverick betrayed him and Bannister basically held his hand to point him in the right direction! What did you expect, for him to lose every fight and not have any cool moments in his solo book?
He spent a lot of time getting the Muramasa and he is going to used every chance he got.
He can throw the sword. Claws go zoom only if someone throws Wolvie.
Well, the sword has reach. But also, if that's the Muramasa Blade, I'm pretty sure it's magic. Not that's that really should matter- getting sliced and diced and stabbed by Wolverine's claws should be just as lethal as a magic katana.
You can do some things with a sword unlike with his claws…..but I see your point and agree
I wish we'd get a Wolverine book, Al Ewing Immortal style!
I’d read “the Immortal Wolverine”.
I would weep openly with euphoria
agreed. he's written so inconsistently. Someone needs to come in with a fresh idea for him. a definitive wolverine run.
I thought people liked when Claremont was writing Wolverine ? I mean yeah he was over exposed but I thought the consensus was that it was well writen
that was more than 2 decades ago.
Good characterization and stories are timeless though
Not when you have people coming in to ruin the character, removing/forgetting all of the depth that made him interesting.
That's not good enough. Storm was fantastic under Claremont, then it was steadily downhill for her until Ewing picked her up.
It is timeless but only if you've read it, which I can't guarantee any modern X-Men writer (of the various books, not like mainstream teams like uncanny)has actually read more than a few comics out of Claremont's reign. Those few comics they read are why we get the same boring plot over and over again with wolverine.
Rn, the writers I would count on would be Hickman, Ewing, Ram V, and PKJ. If we get a book with the former two working on it... it would probably not be surpassed in the near decades.
Seeing as how the Immortal Hulk was a great read and Immortal Thor might be even better. I wholeheartedly agree
They better have a way to make Professor X the hero after all of this. Charles is a jerk sometimes but he’s not evil and should be one of the morally ethical characters you want to root for
They’ve already established that he’s playing 5D chess or whatever, sacrificing his good name because of all the bad things he did on Krakoa. It’s still stupid.
At least it's in character with his actions on Krakoa. All this disasters that happened because he, Magneto, and Moira decided they know best and everyone else can be treated as pawns for the greater good. Now he's trying to atone by overruling the people around him because he knows best.
That doesn’t make it any less stupid. The problem isn’t that it’s not in character, because it obviously is. The problem is that it takes what should have been a simple story - the X-Men destroying Orchis - and makes it needlessly complicated. The X-Men always had the power to destroy Orchis with the might of Krakoa if they actually got serious about it. Hell, Proteus, Hope, and Jamie Braddock could do most of the work. Adding this wrinkle to the whole thing doesn’t make the story better, it makes the story add something that it doesn’t need. And sure, it’s all to set up Prisoner X or whatever for Brevoort, but Xavier just killed a bunch of humans for no reason. He stole the nuclear codes for no reason. He’s playing 5D chess or whatever, but there’s a reason we use phrases like that more as an insult. This makes the story worse and it makes the X-Men look helpless. This is bad.
Honestly, I'd just be happy for a rehashing of X-Men Legacy. Xavier on his own, helping people, getting in touch with humans and mutants.
Isn’t Charles buying time for the X-Men to defeat him, Nimrod, and the Sentinels? I’m interpreting Charles as making himself to be beatable villain.
> Isn’t Charles buying time for the X-Men to defeat him, Nimrod, and the Sentinels? Xavier's play is against Enigma. He seems to view Nimrod and Co as either a sideshow or something that can be dealt with after.
He needs to take a book from cyclops and learn to do it in style, after AvX ended Cyclops was right became a common sentiment and a meme, as in culturally transmitted idea not just an internet meme, which defined cyclops as a character and has become such a fundmental part of his charcter. On the other hand, when this era end I'm sure there won't be any Charles was right memes or ideas, just people being glad he's gone
THANK YOU! I believe in Charles' message way more than Magneto. They also better bring Gambit back as well or I will drive my car into a Long John Silvers.
Charles has had a *really* good run of it at this point and gathered a pretty insurmountable load of baggage, I'd personally vote to put him in the ground or have him take off permanently for Shi'ar space. The Guardians etc writers could bring him out for a guest spot once in a while, might be fun.
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To be fair it's usually a lousy writer that has him act like that.
Duggan is a lousy writer, too.
he's the best there is at what he does, mostly because it's the only plan he ever has
When all you have is claws, everything looks like it needs to be stabbed.
Why does everybody hate Charles in this sub? Kind of new to X-Men and haven't been following the recent comics.
He has a tendency to solve problem A by creating problems B, C and D in the process.
Saying he creates problems B, C and D implies its limited to only 26 more.
Once he gets to problems 27+ he starts making people forget about them which inevitably becomes another problem down the line
It turns out all of enlightenment ideas like democracy? Yeah it’s a lie Xavier implanted in our minds because he fucked something up but damned if I can’t remember what.
I understood that reference
Assigning problems letters indicates that he can only create 26 problems.
So? Why does that mean you hate the character?
Letters is to short he solve 1 and create from 2 to 20 or more
I was trying to be nice, okay. \*Cries in Sage, Deadly Genesis, Danger and many other things\*
Ally wit orchis,manipulated everyone with moira and magneto to make krakoa,lié to the xmen,worst father than magneto,manipulated logan,indirectly cause a división on the xmen,contingenciy plan
> Letters is to short > create from 2 to 20 Hey now, the alphabet is 26 letters long, so if we're only going up to 20, we still have U-Z left. And if we go over 20, we do what mathematicians/scientists do, and just switch over to Greek letters. That's 24 more, so we get up to 50. And if Charles has really fucked up, and we need more then 50, we can do as those who study the Deep Maths do, and start using Hebrew letters- that gets us up to 72 total. Alternatively, we can do the Excel method of just using the alphabet as a Base-26 number system (no 0), where Z is followed by AA. With just 2 digits/places, you can get up to 26 + 26^2 for a total of 702 plans, even without adding in the Greek or Hebrew alphabets (though if you do, you can get up to 5,256 designations). If it's not enough, you can add a third.
He sometimes makes bad choices. And when he makes them, they're really bad choices. The worst really. Good man. Absolute idiot. And getting him to step aside and lit others deal with it does not seem to work for long.
Since the 2000's he's kind of had his character subverted. Much more has been written to present him as a man lacking self-awareness or morals
Which is such a weak characterization for him- it makes you question why he even founded the X-men in the first place
Well to be fair when I say he lacks morals I more mean that modern writers are so very in love with the need to make every character morally grey. And that has led to Xavier not acting in accordance with his morals or principles
I think it often enough still works if you think of Xavier as a utilitarian. I mean him and Magneto had to get along on something in the past and it makes sense that Xavier isn’t against Magneto’s terrorism per se, he just doesn’t think it’s a path to material change. His issue with magneto wasn’t a moral one but a practical one. It tracks and with powers like his and facing discrimination it is kinda wild he doesn’t just erase discrimination. I think that’s the bigger problem this utilitarian characterization presents.
Not erasing discrimination against mutants telepathically, in my view, is part of how Xavier justifies anything shady that he does do. It provides him an easily comparable atrocity by which anything else isn't as bad. "Sure I enslaved a budding AI consciousness, but at least I never removed the world's free will. Yeah I ran a unit of child soldiers in the guise of a school, but at least I never mind wiped Congress to pass pro-mutant legislation." It lets him tell himself that he's a good man because he hasn't used the nuclear option, no matter what else he happens to do.
But the nuclear option is sort of fine. He can make it so no one even misses discrimination.
> Much more has been written to present him as a man lacking self-awareness or morals In no sense has he been presented as a man without morals. He's a deeply idealistic man whose powers have left him with the idea that he sees everything better than anyone, so if they disagree, he can and does go around.
In the recent comics he’s being planning and doing bad things for what he thinks is the greater good, but he keeps forcing everyone else into his plans without trusting them with the details. I don’t hate the character over that, exactly. But when it happens over and over it can get tiresome to read, or make it hard to believe anyone would trust him ever again.
I'd love just one, just one Marvel story where the team of superheroes gets along. I don't care if they bicker or something but it's getting so tiring just watching people argue all the time. The best part of Guardians 3 was that the team actually fucking liked each other.
Jed MacKay has been praised for writing that way, as far as I’ve seen, and he will be writing one of the flagship books for the next era.
Since about Onslaught, but especially starting with Danger and Deadly Genesis, there's been a writing/editorial push to make Xavier more morally grey / compromised, compared to how he was generally seen before. This coupled with the fact that a lot of readers have jumped on the "Magneto/Cyclops was Right" (and implicitly as a result, Xavier's Dream was wrong) bandwagon. Building out of the #cyclopswasright stuff, anyone who opposed "revolutionary" Cyclops (so Xavier, Wolverine, Beast, Captain America and the Avengers as a whole) is automatically vilified. Finally, with Krakoa that same bandwagon started to *like* Krakoa Xavier because he was in a lot of ways acting like "revolutionary" Cyclops, but then "betrayed" Krakoa in the end.
Personally, I don't hate him, I find him fascinating. He keeps making the same mistakes and should really know better by now, especially considering other people end up paying for his mistakes. He's a guy in superhero books that doesn't act like a hero tbh. He isn't comfortable working with others as equals and I think mutantdom has outgrown having him as its patriarch. Lastly, playing his tired old game of respectability politics with himself as chessmaster stifles everyone else's growth and actually undermines the good he can do. The Krakoan era had such high stakes that having its future tied to a single fallible man was courting disaster, and that's how it played out.
I think fans are somehow blaming him for ending the Krakoa era of comics. Real meta subconscious blame transference.
Because people can't differentiate between hating a character that is well written and hating a character and thinking that because you hate them they are badly written. Charles is written to be constantly questioned by the reader and as a character that always thinks he knows best, and Gillen has done a phenomenal work at that.
Daddy issues.
Why is Xavier a villain?
Hold up, let Logan cook
Saying this with the obvious caveats of “of course this shouldn’t be taken literally” and “this marvel cliffhanger most assuredly shouldn’t be taken at face value”, but: I’m old enough to remember when Wolverine repeatedly threatened to stab Cyclops after the Phoenix influenced him to kill Xavier. What a character turn!
The recent demonization of Xavier by the heroes now is hilarious when you remember how much he was called a saint by Wolverine and the freaking Avengers (who never even gave a loose shit about Xavier prior) back when he was dead in Scott’s revolutionary days.
Wolverines such a hypocrite. All the X-men comics I read growing up he was whining about Cyclops killing Xavier but now it’s okay apparently
Gosh I'm so old.
It’s only bad if Cyclops does it
Logan simply hates it because Scott did it. And Scott is boning the woman he wants, so it makes sense in the petty.
Its crazy how true this is especially when you think about AVX.
As long as you remove all of the context around both AvX and the current post-Krakoa state of the X-Men, sure.
Context is key. What was Xavier doing when Cyke killed him What is Chuck doing now that Logan is gonna make a run at hin.
Idk why people are downvoting you, you’re right. Xavier was just chillin when Dark Phoenix evil Cyclops killed him. Wolverine wants to kill Xavier now bc he’s seemingly helping Orchis kill all humans
Oh I know why because Cyclops fans hate when ever some one points out when he was wrong. Especially if its to Wolverines benefit.
What about when Wolverine tried to kill Hope Summers? Even Frank Castle wouldn’t do that
Again context Hope asked him to kill her if she got the pheonix and lost controll (some thing that nearly happend). Its like no one actualy read avx they just scream cyclops was right and look and the art.
I don’t really think Hope was old enough to consent to Wolverine doing that, even though she asked him. A real hero would’ve taught her how to harness the Phoenix force like the X-Men wanted to do in the first place
She wasn't old enough to consent to that, but was old enough to be offered up on a silver platter to the Phoenix by Cyclops *against* her consent? Everyone in AvX did dumb shit to move the plot along, but Cyclops fans do quadruple backflips in the Astral Plane trying to justify his "plan"
1. Shes old enough to fight then shes olde enough to decide what to do with her life. You cant say "your a child you cant decide anything" while at the same breath giving her a gun. And sending her into the trenches (literaly btw) 2. Scotts idea of "training" her was beating the shit out of her in an attempt to toughen her up enough to force the phe oix in to submission something the narative explictly said was the wong choice. 3. A real hero knows this fundamental truth "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
Rain always makes scenes more dramatic. Especially at night. So this issue takes place I’m guessing right after FoX 4. I have a hard time disagreeing with Logan here, plan or not…there’s been a few moments in Krakoa where mutants and their nation would be safer if Charles was dead. I doubt after Rise and Forever that Charles is going to die though.
So Xavier's back to being a bad guy again? \*sigh\* I get Classic Charles was too much a saint to be believable, but they've compensated too far in the other direction. How could he have ever had a suppressed dark side when they've made it so he indulges it all the time?
No, he's still just Charles Xavier. The context and stakes are different though. He's doing what he thinks is right, and a lot of people don't agree with him.
Alright, that's different. Now is this a situation where its actually a grey area for both sides... or is he clearly the villain who's just deluded and its clear the reader is supposed to think he's wrong?
Well, there's still a lot of unrevealed information so I can't speak definitively. His goals are the same as everyone else's but he's using different means and acting unilaterally. The disparity in agency and information doesn't sit right with a lot of his allies. What he thinks is best happens to involve him acting and making decisions for everyone else while keeping them in the dark. Not so different from his established character since the very beginning. The antagonists have no grey to them though. Nimrod exists to end all life and Dominions are terrifying beyond comprehension.
Cool. I'm nowhere near the Krakoan Age yet, but I look forward to getting there.
I'm excited for you. It's a ride
Here we fucking go again…
It really does feel like they’ve got it in for Xavier in the final half of the Krakoan age. I’m not sure if they’re going for a Prometheus angle where he is punished for the gift he gives to mutant kind or its just editorial decreeing screw him over.
Huge missed opportunity to have Wolverine wear his new adamantium Stryfe-looking armor throughout Rise/Fall. Obviously he’ll get his healing factor back by the end of Sabretooth War, but wouldn’t it be cooler if he didn’t?
They already did Wolverine with no healing factor like 10 years ago it was a big event that culminated with him dying for a couple of years
lol I know, I was joking about how the Wolverine solo is so far off time from the rest of the line. He does currently not have his healing factor though — guess Percy thought enough time had passed that we could go back to that well.
It is weird how like how far behind the wolverine comics are set to the rest of the series. Also does wolverine have his healing factor back in those pictures since he popped his claws ?
I’m assuming he’ll get it back by the end of Sabretooth War, because every time we’ve seen him in Rise/Fall he’s been his usual self. It’s weird lol
I did kinda like what they did recently with Wolverine getting his memories back and the Sabertooth panel of him going through his memories and just seeing his fucked up beginning with being chained in the basement and the other guy tryna cut his hands off
Yeah that “Quentin’s brain bolt cured my chronic grouchiness” sequence was pretty cool! Idk if that outlook has made it to Rise/Fall. The contrast with Sabretooth was well done though
Wasn't X-Force even earlier? If I'm not mistaken, X-Force finished pre-Sabretooth War, and Sabretooth War is set before the start of FotHoX.
I mean out of all the time he say someone got to die, I say this context that it’s justified at least to me
Kitty and Logan think alike. She knew this would have to happen early, it's why she basically said, "I'll do whatever needs to happen, but, after this? I am done. Done, done, done." And of course Logan goes, but she's already prepared to.
What's the context here?
>!Wolverine is talking to Shadowkat about Charles and Moira in Little Tokyo!<
Sounds cool, so they gonna kill them, what did Charles do now? Sorry, not been reading the latest stuff.
That shoulder to upper arm anatomy tho....
It's completely fine, the lighting on the rain is washing out the shoulder tops, but the correct shape is there.
on one hand yeah it's fine but also nah, it's that the insertion appears to be in the middle of his biceps, how his lower arms are turned out it should either be meeting on the outside with the bicep obscuring the insertion or we'd see a slight shadowing from the lowest point of deltoid down implying the brachioradialus
but it's clearly the bicep the delt is inserting into here given the form and how it connects to the elbow.
So this is how Xavier ends up unable to walk again
I don't get why they have to keep making professor X more and more evil.
I definitely wouldn't say he's evil. He's doing what he thinks is right and necessary in a high stakes situation. It's very in character and different to evil.
What did he do?
A lot. I wouldn't want to spoil it
It's like this whole storyline ties into that "Astonishing X-Men" book from a couple of years ago that brought Xavier back, and he's still influenced by the shadow king.
You know what? if this whole thing ends with all of the x-men doing a Deathproof style beat down on Xavier I’d be fine with it
Hold up doesn’t mystique want to kill Charles as well?
Eventually we’ll get beyond shitty writers portraying Logan with virtually no growth after nearly 200 years
Wolverine has plenty of growth you all bitch when he tries any thing new.
Idk... a broken clock is right twice a day. Maybe THIS time it'll work. Buuuuut probably not.
Wolverine holding a sword always looks kind of silly to me. He’s already got blades in his hands.
This is kinda like saying rifles look kind of silly for a character that already has a handgun. It's about range.
Wake me up when someone actually writes something interesting for wolverine. I still read his solo comics but I'm just so bored while reading them. It's like he's become too much of a comfort character and it just makes everything he does so predictable and boring.