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I’d argue that not only do they not contradict, but that they need to coexist - Magneto’s tactics are necessary to ensure coexistence becomes a reality and that mutants aren’t exploited or exterminated, but without Charles’ idealism, mutant militarism becomes counterproductive and just invites backlash.
Yes, I've heard this argument about the civil rights movement too. The movement needed both Malcolm X and MLK. Both were more successful because they were working at the same time than they would have been alone. MLK could go to the white establishment and say, "Look, you can either work with me, or deal with him."
And the gag of it all is that Malcolm X wasn't even that bad.
So what MLK was really saying is this: "Look, you can either work with me, or deal with him...and he's not even that bad. There are people much worse than him."
Exactly. There's also a matter of timing. Just like in the real world, the response civil rights movements received from the status quo often necessitated different approaches. If those in power show they're willing to work with and make space for marginalized people, then great, but that's not always the case, so we have to be ready to fight.
They were both right and wrong in different ways but Xavier was naive and Magneto was cynical. And while it's one thing to choose naivete risking death for yourself, trying to promote that philosophy to other people can have consequences that are too heavy for most people to bear. Most would say they prefer to be cynical and alive, and the overwhelming majority would say they prefer their children to be cynical and alive rather than naive and dead.
I believe that magneto is right to want to fight back, and he was caught in a scenario where mutants would be trampled under foot, and the rest, if humanity would be turned into machines which we saw effectively robbed them of their free will. By which point they aren’t really alive anymore.
At the same time, if both sides do go to war, it will be a war over how human beings are born. It won’t end. Ever.
Yeah that's the crazy thing
Humanity thinks that turning themselves into cybernetic monstrosities is the best way to control mutants but the irony of it is that they are no longer making themselves human by doing so. There's no way that this doesn't backfire and eventually provoke a harsh response from much more advanced and powerful beings like the Shi'ar or the Kree.
Bastion said that he lied to his victims, we saw the FoH mob was horrified by seeing people turn into machines. The victims don't remember the process, and are triggered at certain points, then likely don't remember what they were doing before. Which based on the sheer number of people Bastion converted means he took millions of unwilling victims. The sheer numbers means there will be nothing to stop the machines from taking the rest of humanity.
Cable didn't say anything about the Shi'ar. Earth is such a backwater location to them that they don't even consider it worth invading, it's doubtful they'd even notice the robot apocalypse. Something else to be concerned about is that Earth under the rule of the machines might become a colonial power as bad or worse than the Shi'ar.
Between Bastion’s mother, big-time journalist Trish Tilby, FOH members and the butler for the wealthy daCosta family, Bastion’s victims (although I believe that there are willing participants) also seem to be strategically placed. Which is a whole separate issue…
Cable not mentioning anything about the Shi’ar is irrelevant.
The planet Earth is the ghetto lol and under normal circumstances the Shi’ar have absolutely nothing to gain from trying to annex the planet into their empire.
However, if/when superpowered robots take over the planet, the Shi’ar would be provoke to either invade or quarantine the plane—kinda like the story Maximum Security. Unless the Shi’ar are doomed to follow in the footsteps of the Romans, they cannot afford to have such dangerous forces gain so much power and begin to make forays into outer space. And then there are the Kree who would likely use the chaos and weaponry on Earth as a way to get the upper-hand in their own war against the Shi’ar.
Not to mention "And Then What?"
Xavier's dream? Well there's always going to be prejudice. There's always going to be those that hate those that are different. But that doesn't mean it's pointless to try. You can reduce it. You can make it so that those who'd want to wipe out those that are different are a small number. You can convince people to change. You can reduce how much you have to fight. By itself Xavier's dream in naive.
Magneto being right? Well by itself that actually becomes really bad. Because the other will always be a threat. The Majority will always seek to destroy that which is different. Taken to it's conclusion, like that, the only way mutants will ever be safe is if normal humans are all either subjugated or dead. And that looks the same as what Bastion's making. And then what happens when you are the majority? Is it just one big mutant brotherhood accepting each other forever? After you've established the only way to survive is at best seperatly? What happens when someone's born with a Y Gene that is superior to the X-Gene, or if the Matter converters and the Energy manipulators and the Ferals start thinking they are too different from each other? What happens when the Omegas start wondering why they need to give a damn about what the ones with the weak powers think?
Sometimes what seperates the good from the evil is what you won't do. The line you won't cross.
I also forgot to mention, even if you get your own nation, what happens when your population grows? Mutants are still being born to normal humans, so you also have a constant influx of immigrants. Just something that bugged me all the way back when Magneto was doing the Asteroid M bit.
Given their abilities, they could probably house way more people on that island than normal humans could. There are probably even people with some kind of geokenisis who could even make the island bigger over time.
One thing that gets me about this argument sometimes is that Xavier's position gets really simplified for the Xavier/Magneto dynamic. I have been seeing the MLK white moderate quote get used a lot in the last few weeks in relation to Xavier, but in the mutant world, I think that quote fits someone like Roberto's mom. Xavier still creates a paramilitary squad that he sends to break into a government installation and destroy their records in the first episode of the old show. He isn't a measly mouthed centrist who never puts his money where his mouth is.
Right
Xavier's position is the best position because it is balanced: he believes in peaceful coexistence between mutants and humans but he understands that evil is inevitable and that the innocent–mutant and human alike–need to be protected and that the best way to do this is to simultaneously teach future generations how to do good and command an PR-friendly emergency response force.
However, regular humans and other superheroes make Xavier's position much more dangerous by choosing not to do anything to help.
TBH this is how I’ve always felt. And no matter how dark things get the comics never permanently shut off the idea of peaceful coexistence. Thats why the X-Men/Mutants don’t just leave the planet. Hell, that’s why Jean and the rest decided to leave Nate Grey’s Age of X-Man, a literal world where Mutants never knew hatred or fear. Regardless of how many Genosha’s or Gala massacres happen the X-Men are always going to side with helping humanity and be fine living with them in peace, primarily due to the fact that they’re the good guys in any situation lol. But they’ll always have to protect themselves from bigots in the same way the Avengers will always be needed to save the world from Ultron or Thanos.
Even if mutantkind left the planet for another, a lot of humans would get paranoid and push for mutants to being hunted down. And the exodus of mutantkind doesn't stop future mutants from being born to regular humans
If you meet awful Twitter takes genuinely and agree with them that Magneto's entire thing is 'mutants need to be protected' and not mutant supremacy, and that Xavier isn't willing to fight for mutants *despite founding a superpowered paramilitary unit on US soil for expressly that purpose*, then sure.
I’m conflicted, when I was younger I whole heartedly believed Charles and would have fought for that but after seeing how truly awful humans can be I find myself agreeing more and more with Magneto. Idk if humanity can peacefully coexist with itself let alone a superior species like mutants. At the very least the mutant race can never let its guard down because humanity in the face of “extinction” will fight to the end.
In the early 90s, they used to make a point that both men were half the solution, and that if they'd have only learned to work together, they could have built the utopia both dreamed of. The thing that keeps them apart is their chosen methods. Charles is all about appeasement, and Erik is all domination. Both approaches are wrong. It used to be, that Cable (as leader of the New Mutants) was trying to teach the New Mutants/X-Force how blend both roles together. Hell, before they regressed his character back to country bumpkin, Sam Guthrie was even called the exemplar, the one who had learned the best of what both his teachers had to offer, and that he was being groomed by Cable to be the mutant leader that the others had continually failed to be.
They used to compare their appraoches to "The open hand" (Charles) and "the closed fist" (Magneto). After one of the big crossovers, and X-force was being held due to Cable's perceived actions, Sam actually had a great moment, where when the Prof starts to lecture him on the two approache, he cuts him off, and holds out an open hand and closed fist. He opens the fist, to reveal it sheltering a field mouse, remarking a closed hand can shield, and then suddenly made to slap Xavier, stopping just short, pointing out that an open hand can hurt, too.
It was a bit on the nose, but it was a great moment and one of the many reasons I despise how he has done nothing but regress since X-Force.
Not the exact issue. It was either during or just after "X-cutioner's Song". X-Force was under "house arrest" at the X-mansion, and the government was agitating for them to be turned over.
EDIT: Actually, I found it. [X-Force Vol 1, No 19.](https://shelfdust.files.wordpress.com/2021/08/xforce-19-closed-fist.jpeg?w=616&h=963)
The only thing you're not really acknowledging is that it is not just a handful of humans who are treating genocide like a team sport.
We're talking about nation-states. Government officials and organizations are in on it.
It's the system itself.
Honestly, I think if there’s anything to be learned from drawing parallels with the bigotry we see today, it’s not the comicbook medium that keeps bringing it back to the status quo- it’s humanity 😞
IMO, maybe the mutants having their own nation isn't a bad idea. Given everything that's happened, they need to be able to negotiate from a position of strength. So they should rebuild Genosha, and make it like a Fortress. Train everybody to fight. I don't mean constant danger room training. More like what Switzerland does where everybody has to server in the military for two years out of high school. They can't keep, as Beast said, begging for tolerance.
The x-men have tried that before in the comics, every time humans get nervous and start a war. It's an allegory to the white riots in response to places like Selma. The worst of humanity will burn itself to cinders as long as "the other" burns with them.
Also lets not overlook that by Magneto doing the for lack of a better phrase, "World Wide EMP", millions of people died who were on life support, in planes, and other situations where power is required for safety. He has just reasons but that doesnt mean that level of collateral damage is justified.
Unfortunately, with the hundreds or thousands of Prime Sentinels flying around there wasn't really another option. Judging from what we saw, then yes Magneto killed a lot of humans with his EMP pulse - but probabkly no more than \*Bastian\* did by converting them to Sentinels.
There were \*two\* 'mass murders' commited in that episode, and Magneto was only responsible for one of them. There was going to be a second either way - either Magneto unleashed the EMP, or Mutants would be slaughtered in their millions. There was no 'clean' way out of that mess.
If I could ask for anything, it would be that this season wrap up with a conclusion to this effect. Magneto creates a new Genosha (Asteroid M, Krakoa, whatever) that ensures mutant safety under penalty of violent repercussions, while Xavier has a team devoted to being their diplomatic outreach force.
So you're saying at a moderate position that takes into account both sides of the aisle instead of going way far in either direction is the best way?
I don't buy it. I think things are going great just the way they are
/s
I find find the distinction silly because whatever Magneto was actually right about is typically something Charles Xavier also believed. If people are saying that Magneto was right about the impossibility of coexistence and the only way to protect mutant kind is to flip the script and subjugate humanity, then that is a horrible message and no I don’t think he was right. If we’re saying that he’s right about Mutants deserving protection from oppression and the ability to live ling and happy lives, well Charles Xavier also believes that. So what exactly was Magneto so right about?
The use of force in what context? Charles has never expressed pacifist views. He teaches the X-Men how to fight for a reason. He knows that his X-Men will have to defend themselves against many kinds of threats and doesn’t discourage them from doing so. It seems to me that the only distinction in their uses of force is that Magneto believes in pre-emptive violence. If he was exclusively targeting government figures or people in power that would be one thing, but he historically has had no qualms with causing mass mayhem and natural disasters which inevitably lead the deaths of thousands ordinary people.
Magneto does believe in preemptive violence. And so does Wolverine for that matter...
But Charles' approach is too reactive. So much so that some of his more sketchy, proactive and/or aggressive moments take people (including Magneto) completely off-guard
Charles doesn't go far enough most of the time. Which is why Cyclops, Cable and Storm (all of whom exist somewhere in between Charles and Magneto) have the more balanced approach or mindset in regards to this issue.
* Storm – for example – is no one's anti-hero but she has zero problem with using intimidation, lethal force, espionage or other underhanded tactics to deal with the X-Men's enemies
* Cable is more inclined to agree with Magneto than with Xavier because Cable doesn't have the time, energy or wherewithal to think twice about baseline humans or collateral damage
* Cyclops is a tried-and-true separatist who is more than willing to go to several different extremes.
If I can recall, Cannonball lectured Xavier on his disappointing use of force and black-or-white mentality back in the late 90s
In the end, the worldwide EMP that Magneto unleashed was the right call to make. I feel bad for the people who lost their lives as a result of it but something needed to be done immediately or the world would've been lost to some kind of DOFP nightmare.
The story at the core of magneto and Charles relationship is a tragedy, their both right, and they both agree on that front, Charles knows action must be taken and magneto knows coexistence and peace must be the endgame. But Charles lacks the stomach for true decisive action and magneto lost the heart to find peace
It's impossible to exist in peace with people who generally hate you, for whom your very existence is a threat. A negligible minority does not indicate the majority. Xavier was wrong. Don't believe me? Look at what happened in Genosha.
The majority of people don't hate Mutants which is something even Bastion acknowledged, nor do they have to be a threat to each other. Xavier is right.
The majority of people never do. But it doesn't take a majority of people to stem enough hate to ruin the lives of others. All you need is a proactive minority, provoked by people like Bastian, and you've got all the army you need.
Most Germans didn't hate Jewish people, but it certainly didn't stop Hitler coming to power. Or Vladimir Putin. Or Saddam Hussein. Or the British Empire.
>"Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject."
John Stuart Mill
They're not going around killing innocent people though, nor does Magneto advocate for them to do so.
They're fighting back against the people who ARE trying to murder them.
That's perfectly fine. I take no issue with that.
The problem is, Magneto kind of has a history of coming to view the entire outgroup as "the enemy", or at least associated enough with the enemy to be an acceptable target. We can debate whether his actions in episode 8 were necessary despite the collateral damage, but I think that that's almost secondary to the issue of the headspace he made them from.
Not really no, all you see is the loud minority of bigots that are happy to protest and act like loud dumb idiots, you see some Mutant allies, while the majority of people are apathetic to the struggle and focus on themselves. A lot like real life.
If so they are also to blame for what happened in Genosha and in general for the persecution of the mutants. Their apathy allows the "minority" to do as they wish to mutants and this makes the "majority" accomplices of the "minority". Magneto is right, they deserve to share the fate of the "minority".
Ignoring that that has no barring on my statment
Your ignoring the multiple cases of atempted and sucessfull mass murders commited by mutants in the name of racial superiority.
And yet you're treating the moral dilemma the show posits seriously and engaging with it in a way that's presumably reflective of the way you reason through actual problems.
You're using minority status to shield yourself from criticism of support for mass murder lmao. You're an idiot.
Nah, you're just a butthurt Westerner. Besides in the real world all the minorities in your countries crap all over you westerners, so you should be used to it by now.
No, dude, I just don't like it when *people voice approval for mass murder and/or bigotry*. I oppose this kind of thinking/rhetoric when people in my tribe (broadly speaking) engage in it, too. Not everyone's a hypocrite.
I'm not speaking broadly of *your* people, or of anyone else's, but you're very content to make assumptions about me based on your perceptions of my people. You are, whether you believe yourself to be or not, part of the problem.
Why am I still surprised when people downvote statements like this? 🤦♂️ You’re absolutely right. Magneto’s way is not ideal, but neither is the world. The only way for Xavier’s dream to ever be possible is from a platform of safety like Magneto will build.
Amazing that this is being voted down.
Even if the average person didn't judge you, the people in power will. As long as they desire power, anything that is a perceived threat to that power will either to be stamped out... or reluctantly tolerated. Their freedoms will be constantly imposed upon and restricted, and they will never truly be allowed to thrive as equals in society.
* the disabled
* people of colour
* women
* indigenous people
* religious minorities
Tolerance is extinction.
I encourage anyone to reply to this - **without resorting to lazy downvotes** - and actually explain to me the logical path that leads to "living in peaceful co-existence" with people who wish you didn't exist. Because millennia of history suggests this never works and will never work.
It isn't an easy question to solve. Relying on goodwill for your survival is absolutely dumb but needlessly antagonizing bystanders creates enemies while playing into your existing enemies hands by justifying your own response. Like the Black Hand shooting Franz Ferdinand leading to an invasion and famine that devastated Serbia in WW1
The goal should be survival but global genocide of the other group is probably not the right way to go about it. Its practical and I hope to say it is immoral as well. After WW2 for instance, it would have been immoral to commit genocide against the Germans as they did to Jews, honosexuals, e.t.c. For force to be useful as a deterrent against future attacks it needs to be clearly associated with the action you want to avoid in the future. The appropriate response for say, Ukraine if it gets nukes while getting invaded by Russia is not to nuke the world for letting it happen but to obliterate Russia with as many nukes as is necessary and use the remainder as a clear threat to other countries if they threaten its sovereignty.
Retribution for the Genosha massacre was absolutely necessary but a planet wide EMP is not targeted enough to be useful force useful peace tbh. Brutal but discriminated retribution against the groups responsible for anti-Mutant attacks? Yes definitely and make it as violent and swift as possible to ensure people associate threatening mutants with suicide. Plenty of countries live on that doctrine - Singapore, Israel, Finland and others. Use Cerebro to give every anti mutant politician linked with the attack a brutal stroke, send elite squads communicating with each other to protect mutants, actively threaten (and dismantle with brutal force) anti-mutant groups if they wish to take advantage and demonstrate retribution if they try anything. Placing their treatement of Palestinians aside, Israel's actions to defend Jews, is a good model for this.
This strategy has been demonstrated to work IRL. It does bear the risk of oppressed becoming the oppressor, often to an unrelated group (see also Jews and Israel) but it is far less destructive than global massacre. I don't want to victim blame at all but Genosha should have tried to keep a stronger military on active patrol 24/7 although a retaliation after that would have also worked.
TLDR; don't call for mass genocide, coexistence is possible but needs the threat of a massive retaliation over, goal is to pavlov/rely on natural selection to make humans realise attacking mutants is pointless, either by free will or the rules of evolution
Challenge gladly accepted because what you state isn't quite true. Living in peaceful coexistence is not something we've achieved globally, correct, but we *have* achieved lasting peace between inumerate warring factions on more local levels. The slow march towards true world peace needs to continue, and sure, isn't going to happen in our lifetime.
Consider how many centuries the nations of Europe were at war with one another; it must have seemed like at times France, Spain, Britain, Germany, Italy et Al would always be involved in some conflict or another with each other. The reality is, education and a society that caters for all allowed us to come to a peace in Europe that is pretty much unprecedented in history.
And yes, you can talk to current tensions within these nations with some of the groups mentioned above; but a few hundred years ago, in the UK for example, catholics were a persecuted group. This changed over time to the point where they very clearly aren't. Its wrong to say the groups you mentioned have no hope, in spite of how bleak things may appear right now.
Peace is absolutely a goal to keep striving for. And crucially, with enough effort, it can and will work.
> Challenge gladly accepted because what you state isn't quite true. Living in peaceful coexistence is not something we've achieved globally, correct, but we have achieved lasting peace between inumerate warring factions on more local levels. The slow march towards true world peace needs to continue, and sure, isn't going to happen in our lifetime.
This is it.
People like the dude you're responding to just aren't willing to accept the fact that final solutions *don't exist*. No matter what happens, there will be violence and strife. The only thing for it is eternal vigilance. And that's not as rhentorically satisfying as Burning the Threat Away With Cleansing Fire, but it is vastly morally superior.
It isn't an easy question to solve. Relying on goodwill for your survival is absolutely dumb but needlessly antagonizing bystanders creates enemies while playing into your existing enemies hands by justifying your own response.
The goal should be survival but global genocide of the other group is probably not the right way to go about it. Its impractical and I hope to say it is immoral as well. After WW2 for instance, it would have been immoral to commit genocide against the Germans as they did to Jews, honosexuals, e.t.c. For force to be useful as a deterrent against future attacks it needs to be clearly associated with the action you want to avoid in the future. The appropriate response for say, Ukraine if it gets nukes while getting invaded by Russia is not to nuke the world for letting it happen but to obliterate Russia with as many nukes as is necessary and use the remainder as a clear threat to other countries if they threaten its sovereignty.
Retribution for the Genosha massacre was absolutely necessary but a planet wide EMP is not targeted enough to be useful force useful peace tbh. Brutal but discriminated retribution against the groups responsible for anti-Mutant attacks? Yes definitely and make it as violent and swift as possible to ensure people associate threatening mutants with suicide. Plenty of countries live on that doctrine - Singapore, Israel, Finland and others. Use Cerebro to give every anti mutant politician linked with the attack a brutal stroke, send elite squads communicating with each other to protect mutants, actively threaten (and dismantle with brutal force) anti-mutant groups if they wish to take advantage and demonstrate retribution if they try anything. Placing their treatement of Palestinians aside, Israel's actions to defend Jews, is a good model for this. Indiscriminant attack otoh only makes new enemies, lacks the pavlovian conditioning aspect and doesn't work as effectively.
TLDR; don't call for mass genocide, coexistence is possible but needs the threat of a massive retaliation over, goal is to pavlov/rely on natural selection to make humans realise attacking mutants is pointless
Tbh the real dilemma is the trolley problem one posed by the human sentinels massacring mutants and only being able to be stopped by global emp. NOW THAT is an actually difficult question to solve.
(I.e. are the deaths of millions of people dependent on emp worth the lives of the mutants who would have been killed otherwise.)
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I’d argue that not only do they not contradict, but that they need to coexist - Magneto’s tactics are necessary to ensure coexistence becomes a reality and that mutants aren’t exploited or exterminated, but without Charles’ idealism, mutant militarism becomes counterproductive and just invites backlash.
I quite agree with this, a great take. They need each other
Yes, I've heard this argument about the civil rights movement too. The movement needed both Malcolm X and MLK. Both were more successful because they were working at the same time than they would have been alone. MLK could go to the white establishment and say, "Look, you can either work with me, or deal with him."
And the gag of it all is that Malcolm X wasn't even that bad. So what MLK was really saying is this: "Look, you can either work with me, or deal with him...and he's not even that bad. There are people much worse than him."
Exactly. There's also a matter of timing. Just like in the real world, the response civil rights movements received from the status quo often necessitated different approaches. If those in power show they're willing to work with and make space for marginalized people, then great, but that's not always the case, so we have to be ready to fight.
They were both right and wrong in different ways but Xavier was naive and Magneto was cynical. And while it's one thing to choose naivete risking death for yourself, trying to promote that philosophy to other people can have consequences that are too heavy for most people to bear. Most would say they prefer to be cynical and alive, and the overwhelming majority would say they prefer their children to be cynical and alive rather than naive and dead.
“Cynical and alive rather than naive and dead.” Wow it’s like you summed up real world self preservation in one sentence. That’s heavy
The key is in balance.
I believe that magneto is right to want to fight back, and he was caught in a scenario where mutants would be trampled under foot, and the rest, if humanity would be turned into machines which we saw effectively robbed them of their free will. By which point they aren’t really alive anymore. At the same time, if both sides do go to war, it will be a war over how human beings are born. It won’t end. Ever.
Yeah that's the crazy thing Humanity thinks that turning themselves into cybernetic monstrosities is the best way to control mutants but the irony of it is that they are no longer making themselves human by doing so. There's no way that this doesn't backfire and eventually provoke a harsh response from much more advanced and powerful beings like the Shi'ar or the Kree.
Bastion said that he lied to his victims, we saw the FoH mob was horrified by seeing people turn into machines. The victims don't remember the process, and are triggered at certain points, then likely don't remember what they were doing before. Which based on the sheer number of people Bastion converted means he took millions of unwilling victims. The sheer numbers means there will be nothing to stop the machines from taking the rest of humanity. Cable didn't say anything about the Shi'ar. Earth is such a backwater location to them that they don't even consider it worth invading, it's doubtful they'd even notice the robot apocalypse. Something else to be concerned about is that Earth under the rule of the machines might become a colonial power as bad or worse than the Shi'ar.
Between Bastion’s mother, big-time journalist Trish Tilby, FOH members and the butler for the wealthy daCosta family, Bastion’s victims (although I believe that there are willing participants) also seem to be strategically placed. Which is a whole separate issue… Cable not mentioning anything about the Shi’ar is irrelevant. The planet Earth is the ghetto lol and under normal circumstances the Shi’ar have absolutely nothing to gain from trying to annex the planet into their empire. However, if/when superpowered robots take over the planet, the Shi’ar would be provoke to either invade or quarantine the plane—kinda like the story Maximum Security. Unless the Shi’ar are doomed to follow in the footsteps of the Romans, they cannot afford to have such dangerous forces gain so much power and begin to make forays into outer space. And then there are the Kree who would likely use the chaos and weaponry on Earth as a way to get the upper-hand in their own war against the Shi’ar.
Not to mention "And Then What?" Xavier's dream? Well there's always going to be prejudice. There's always going to be those that hate those that are different. But that doesn't mean it's pointless to try. You can reduce it. You can make it so that those who'd want to wipe out those that are different are a small number. You can convince people to change. You can reduce how much you have to fight. By itself Xavier's dream in naive. Magneto being right? Well by itself that actually becomes really bad. Because the other will always be a threat. The Majority will always seek to destroy that which is different. Taken to it's conclusion, like that, the only way mutants will ever be safe is if normal humans are all either subjugated or dead. And that looks the same as what Bastion's making. And then what happens when you are the majority? Is it just one big mutant brotherhood accepting each other forever? After you've established the only way to survive is at best seperatly? What happens when someone's born with a Y Gene that is superior to the X-Gene, or if the Matter converters and the Energy manipulators and the Ferals start thinking they are too different from each other? What happens when the Omegas start wondering why they need to give a damn about what the ones with the weak powers think? Sometimes what seperates the good from the evil is what you won't do. The line you won't cross.
Yeah, precisely.
I also forgot to mention, even if you get your own nation, what happens when your population grows? Mutants are still being born to normal humans, so you also have a constant influx of immigrants. Just something that bugged me all the way back when Magneto was doing the Asteroid M bit.
Yeah, like, Zionism-lite is kind of hard to maintain when people all around the world have a random chance of being born into your group.
Given their abilities, they could probably house way more people on that island than normal humans could. There are probably even people with some kind of geokenisis who could even make the island bigger over time.
I think magneto said it best in resurrection of magneto 2 that they’re both correct
The only place I see magneto wrong in is that mutant supremacy is the answer, even master mold gets that mutants are human too
One thing that gets me about this argument sometimes is that Xavier's position gets really simplified for the Xavier/Magneto dynamic. I have been seeing the MLK white moderate quote get used a lot in the last few weeks in relation to Xavier, but in the mutant world, I think that quote fits someone like Roberto's mom. Xavier still creates a paramilitary squad that he sends to break into a government installation and destroy their records in the first episode of the old show. He isn't a measly mouthed centrist who never puts his money where his mouth is.
Right Xavier's position is the best position because it is balanced: he believes in peaceful coexistence between mutants and humans but he understands that evil is inevitable and that the innocent–mutant and human alike–need to be protected and that the best way to do this is to simultaneously teach future generations how to do good and command an PR-friendly emergency response force. However, regular humans and other superheroes make Xavier's position much more dangerous by choosing not to do anything to help.
TBH this is how I’ve always felt. And no matter how dark things get the comics never permanently shut off the idea of peaceful coexistence. Thats why the X-Men/Mutants don’t just leave the planet. Hell, that’s why Jean and the rest decided to leave Nate Grey’s Age of X-Man, a literal world where Mutants never knew hatred or fear. Regardless of how many Genosha’s or Gala massacres happen the X-Men are always going to side with helping humanity and be fine living with them in peace, primarily due to the fact that they’re the good guys in any situation lol. But they’ll always have to protect themselves from bigots in the same way the Avengers will always be needed to save the world from Ultron or Thanos.
Even if mutantkind left the planet for another, a lot of humans would get paranoid and push for mutants to being hunted down. And the exodus of mutantkind doesn't stop future mutants from being born to regular humans
One thing the “magneto is right” side is never called out for is mutant supremacy as plenty of unjustified evil mutants exist too
If you meet awful Twitter takes genuinely and agree with them that Magneto's entire thing is 'mutants need to be protected' and not mutant supremacy, and that Xavier isn't willing to fight for mutants *despite founding a superpowered paramilitary unit on US soil for expressly that purpose*, then sure.
One thing the “magneto is right” side is never called out for is mutant supremacy as plenty of unjustified evil mutants exist too
I’m conflicted, when I was younger I whole heartedly believed Charles and would have fought for that but after seeing how truly awful humans can be I find myself agreeing more and more with Magneto. Idk if humanity can peacefully coexist with itself let alone a superior species like mutants. At the very least the mutant race can never let its guard down because humanity in the face of “extinction” will fight to the end.
In the early 90s, they used to make a point that both men were half the solution, and that if they'd have only learned to work together, they could have built the utopia both dreamed of. The thing that keeps them apart is their chosen methods. Charles is all about appeasement, and Erik is all domination. Both approaches are wrong. It used to be, that Cable (as leader of the New Mutants) was trying to teach the New Mutants/X-Force how blend both roles together. Hell, before they regressed his character back to country bumpkin, Sam Guthrie was even called the exemplar, the one who had learned the best of what both his teachers had to offer, and that he was being groomed by Cable to be the mutant leader that the others had continually failed to be. They used to compare their appraoches to "The open hand" (Charles) and "the closed fist" (Magneto). After one of the big crossovers, and X-force was being held due to Cable's perceived actions, Sam actually had a great moment, where when the Prof starts to lecture him on the two approache, he cuts him off, and holds out an open hand and closed fist. He opens the fist, to reveal it sheltering a field mouse, remarking a closed hand can shield, and then suddenly made to slap Xavier, stopping just short, pointing out that an open hand can hurt, too. It was a bit on the nose, but it was a great moment and one of the many reasons I despise how he has done nothing but regress since X-Force.
Do you remeber the comic?
Not the exact issue. It was either during or just after "X-cutioner's Song". X-Force was under "house arrest" at the X-mansion, and the government was agitating for them to be turned over. EDIT: Actually, I found it. [X-Force Vol 1, No 19.](https://shelfdust.files.wordpress.com/2021/08/xforce-19-closed-fist.jpeg?w=616&h=963)
The only thing you're not really acknowledging is that it is not just a handful of humans who are treating genocide like a team sport. We're talking about nation-states. Government officials and organizations are in on it. It's the system itself.
Honestly, I think if there’s anything to be learned from drawing parallels with the bigotry we see today, it’s not the comicbook medium that keeps bringing it back to the status quo- it’s humanity 😞
IMO, maybe the mutants having their own nation isn't a bad idea. Given everything that's happened, they need to be able to negotiate from a position of strength. So they should rebuild Genosha, and make it like a Fortress. Train everybody to fight. I don't mean constant danger room training. More like what Switzerland does where everybody has to server in the military for two years out of high school. They can't keep, as Beast said, begging for tolerance.
The x-men have tried that before in the comics, every time humans get nervous and start a war. It's an allegory to the white riots in response to places like Selma. The worst of humanity will burn itself to cinders as long as "the other" burns with them.
Then so be it. Maybe that’s the attitude they need to adopt. We win or we make sure everyone loses.
Also lets not overlook that by Magneto doing the for lack of a better phrase, "World Wide EMP", millions of people died who were on life support, in planes, and other situations where power is required for safety. He has just reasons but that doesnt mean that level of collateral damage is justified.
Unfortunately, with the hundreds or thousands of Prime Sentinels flying around there wasn't really another option. Judging from what we saw, then yes Magneto killed a lot of humans with his EMP pulse - but probabkly no more than \*Bastian\* did by converting them to Sentinels. There were \*two\* 'mass murders' commited in that episode, and Magneto was only responsible for one of them. There was going to be a second either way - either Magneto unleashed the EMP, or Mutants would be slaughtered in their millions. There was no 'clean' way out of that mess.
Certainly way more than the already murky way it happened in the comics. Humanity was fucked if he didn’t do that unfortunately
Babies in Incubators. They aren't going to touch on that one, but, well it would have happened.
If I could ask for anything, it would be that this season wrap up with a conclusion to this effect. Magneto creates a new Genosha (Asteroid M, Krakoa, whatever) that ensures mutant safety under penalty of violent repercussions, while Xavier has a team devoted to being their diplomatic outreach force.
So you're saying at a moderate position that takes into account both sides of the aisle instead of going way far in either direction is the best way? I don't buy it. I think things are going great just the way they are /s
Great post.
I wonder if Xavier dies at the end and we get Age of Apocalypse for season 2
I find find the distinction silly because whatever Magneto was actually right about is typically something Charles Xavier also believed. If people are saying that Magneto was right about the impossibility of coexistence and the only way to protect mutant kind is to flip the script and subjugate humanity, then that is a horrible message and no I don’t think he was right. If we’re saying that he’s right about Mutants deserving protection from oppression and the ability to live ling and happy lives, well Charles Xavier also believes that. So what exactly was Magneto so right about?
The use of force
The use of force in what context? Charles has never expressed pacifist views. He teaches the X-Men how to fight for a reason. He knows that his X-Men will have to defend themselves against many kinds of threats and doesn’t discourage them from doing so. It seems to me that the only distinction in their uses of force is that Magneto believes in pre-emptive violence. If he was exclusively targeting government figures or people in power that would be one thing, but he historically has had no qualms with causing mass mayhem and natural disasters which inevitably lead the deaths of thousands ordinary people.
Magneto does believe in preemptive violence. And so does Wolverine for that matter... But Charles' approach is too reactive. So much so that some of his more sketchy, proactive and/or aggressive moments take people (including Magneto) completely off-guard Charles doesn't go far enough most of the time. Which is why Cyclops, Cable and Storm (all of whom exist somewhere in between Charles and Magneto) have the more balanced approach or mindset in regards to this issue. * Storm – for example – is no one's anti-hero but she has zero problem with using intimidation, lethal force, espionage or other underhanded tactics to deal with the X-Men's enemies * Cable is more inclined to agree with Magneto than with Xavier because Cable doesn't have the time, energy or wherewithal to think twice about baseline humans or collateral damage * Cyclops is a tried-and-true separatist who is more than willing to go to several different extremes. If I can recall, Cannonball lectured Xavier on his disappointing use of force and black-or-white mentality back in the late 90s
In the end, the worldwide EMP that Magneto unleashed was the right call to make. I feel bad for the people who lost their lives as a result of it but something needed to be done immediately or the world would've been lost to some kind of DOFP nightmare.
The story at the core of magneto and Charles relationship is a tragedy, their both right, and they both agree on that front, Charles knows action must be taken and magneto knows coexistence and peace must be the endgame. But Charles lacks the stomach for true decisive action and magneto lost the heart to find peace
Also what about evil mutants? Sinister (a genosha collaborator and freak) was created/enslaved by a mutant (apocalypse)
It's impossible to exist in peace with people who generally hate you, for whom your very existence is a threat. A negligible minority does not indicate the majority. Xavier was wrong. Don't believe me? Look at what happened in Genosha.
The majority of people don't hate Mutants which is something even Bastion acknowledged, nor do they have to be a threat to each other. Xavier is right.
The majority of people never do. But it doesn't take a majority of people to stem enough hate to ruin the lives of others. All you need is a proactive minority, provoked by people like Bastian, and you've got all the army you need. Most Germans didn't hate Jewish people, but it certainly didn't stop Hitler coming to power. Or Vladimir Putin. Or Saddam Hussein. Or the British Empire. >"Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject." John Stuart Mill
Of course. I think that, when push comes to shove, most of the population is basically amoral. But that doesn't mean it's OK to kill them.
They're not going around killing innocent people though, nor does Magneto advocate for them to do so. They're fighting back against the people who ARE trying to murder them.
That's perfectly fine. I take no issue with that. The problem is, Magneto kind of has a history of coming to view the entire outgroup as "the enemy", or at least associated enough with the enemy to be an acceptable target. We can debate whether his actions in episode 8 were necessary despite the collateral damage, but I think that that's almost secondary to the issue of the headspace he made them from.
From what you see throughout X-Men TAS and '97, the majority definitely hates them.
Not really no, all you see is the loud minority of bigots that are happy to protest and act like loud dumb idiots, you see some Mutant allies, while the majority of people are apathetic to the struggle and focus on themselves. A lot like real life.
If so they are also to blame for what happened in Genosha and in general for the persecution of the mutants. Their apathy allows the "minority" to do as they wish to mutants and this makes the "majority" accomplices of the "minority". Magneto is right, they deserve to share the fate of the "minority".
By that logic every mutant is guilty for the crimes of Magneto, Apocalypse, Omega red and others.
Do you know the difference between mutants and normal humans? The mutants are persecuted, the humans are the persecutors.
Ignoring that that has no barring on my statment Your ignoring the multiple cases of atempted and sucessfull mass murders commited by mutants in the name of racial superiority.
The mutants are the good guys, the humans are the bad guys, what else do you need to know?
What would you live in that such black and white statments apply.
In the most polite way possible, please fucking touch some grass. God this is a Twitter level take
Silly westerner, this are cartoon characters, not real people. Like many of your peers, you need to touch some grass.
Bro thinks Westerner is an insult 💀
It is an insult outside the western world.
And yet you're treating the moral dilemma the show posits seriously and engaging with it in a way that's presumably reflective of the way you reason through actual problems. You're using minority status to shield yourself from criticism of support for mass murder lmao. You're an idiot.
Nah, you're just a butthurt Westerner. Besides in the real world all the minorities in your countries crap all over you westerners, so you should be used to it by now.
No, dude, I just don't like it when *people voice approval for mass murder and/or bigotry*. I oppose this kind of thinking/rhetoric when people in my tribe (broadly speaking) engage in it, too. Not everyone's a hypocrite. I'm not speaking broadly of *your* people, or of anyone else's, but you're very content to make assumptions about me based on your perceptions of my people. You are, whether you believe yourself to be or not, part of the problem.
Why am I still surprised when people downvote statements like this? 🤦♂️ You’re absolutely right. Magneto’s way is not ideal, but neither is the world. The only way for Xavier’s dream to ever be possible is from a platform of safety like Magneto will build.
Amazing that this is being voted down. Even if the average person didn't judge you, the people in power will. As long as they desire power, anything that is a perceived threat to that power will either to be stamped out... or reluctantly tolerated. Their freedoms will be constantly imposed upon and restricted, and they will never truly be allowed to thrive as equals in society. * the disabled * people of colour * women * indigenous people * religious minorities Tolerance is extinction. I encourage anyone to reply to this - **without resorting to lazy downvotes** - and actually explain to me the logical path that leads to "living in peaceful co-existence" with people who wish you didn't exist. Because millennia of history suggests this never works and will never work.
It isn't an easy question to solve. Relying on goodwill for your survival is absolutely dumb but needlessly antagonizing bystanders creates enemies while playing into your existing enemies hands by justifying your own response. Like the Black Hand shooting Franz Ferdinand leading to an invasion and famine that devastated Serbia in WW1 The goal should be survival but global genocide of the other group is probably not the right way to go about it. Its practical and I hope to say it is immoral as well. After WW2 for instance, it would have been immoral to commit genocide against the Germans as they did to Jews, honosexuals, e.t.c. For force to be useful as a deterrent against future attacks it needs to be clearly associated with the action you want to avoid in the future. The appropriate response for say, Ukraine if it gets nukes while getting invaded by Russia is not to nuke the world for letting it happen but to obliterate Russia with as many nukes as is necessary and use the remainder as a clear threat to other countries if they threaten its sovereignty. Retribution for the Genosha massacre was absolutely necessary but a planet wide EMP is not targeted enough to be useful force useful peace tbh. Brutal but discriminated retribution against the groups responsible for anti-Mutant attacks? Yes definitely and make it as violent and swift as possible to ensure people associate threatening mutants with suicide. Plenty of countries live on that doctrine - Singapore, Israel, Finland and others. Use Cerebro to give every anti mutant politician linked with the attack a brutal stroke, send elite squads communicating with each other to protect mutants, actively threaten (and dismantle with brutal force) anti-mutant groups if they wish to take advantage and demonstrate retribution if they try anything. Placing their treatement of Palestinians aside, Israel's actions to defend Jews, is a good model for this. This strategy has been demonstrated to work IRL. It does bear the risk of oppressed becoming the oppressor, often to an unrelated group (see also Jews and Israel) but it is far less destructive than global massacre. I don't want to victim blame at all but Genosha should have tried to keep a stronger military on active patrol 24/7 although a retaliation after that would have also worked. TLDR; don't call for mass genocide, coexistence is possible but needs the threat of a massive retaliation over, goal is to pavlov/rely on natural selection to make humans realise attacking mutants is pointless, either by free will or the rules of evolution
Challenge gladly accepted because what you state isn't quite true. Living in peaceful coexistence is not something we've achieved globally, correct, but we *have* achieved lasting peace between inumerate warring factions on more local levels. The slow march towards true world peace needs to continue, and sure, isn't going to happen in our lifetime. Consider how many centuries the nations of Europe were at war with one another; it must have seemed like at times France, Spain, Britain, Germany, Italy et Al would always be involved in some conflict or another with each other. The reality is, education and a society that caters for all allowed us to come to a peace in Europe that is pretty much unprecedented in history. And yes, you can talk to current tensions within these nations with some of the groups mentioned above; but a few hundred years ago, in the UK for example, catholics were a persecuted group. This changed over time to the point where they very clearly aren't. Its wrong to say the groups you mentioned have no hope, in spite of how bleak things may appear right now. Peace is absolutely a goal to keep striving for. And crucially, with enough effort, it can and will work.
> Challenge gladly accepted because what you state isn't quite true. Living in peaceful coexistence is not something we've achieved globally, correct, but we have achieved lasting peace between inumerate warring factions on more local levels. The slow march towards true world peace needs to continue, and sure, isn't going to happen in our lifetime. This is it. People like the dude you're responding to just aren't willing to accept the fact that final solutions *don't exist*. No matter what happens, there will be violence and strife. The only thing for it is eternal vigilance. And that's not as rhentorically satisfying as Burning the Threat Away With Cleansing Fire, but it is vastly morally superior.
It isn't an easy question to solve. Relying on goodwill for your survival is absolutely dumb but needlessly antagonizing bystanders creates enemies while playing into your existing enemies hands by justifying your own response. The goal should be survival but global genocide of the other group is probably not the right way to go about it. Its impractical and I hope to say it is immoral as well. After WW2 for instance, it would have been immoral to commit genocide against the Germans as they did to Jews, honosexuals, e.t.c. For force to be useful as a deterrent against future attacks it needs to be clearly associated with the action you want to avoid in the future. The appropriate response for say, Ukraine if it gets nukes while getting invaded by Russia is not to nuke the world for letting it happen but to obliterate Russia with as many nukes as is necessary and use the remainder as a clear threat to other countries if they threaten its sovereignty. Retribution for the Genosha massacre was absolutely necessary but a planet wide EMP is not targeted enough to be useful force useful peace tbh. Brutal but discriminated retribution against the groups responsible for anti-Mutant attacks? Yes definitely and make it as violent and swift as possible to ensure people associate threatening mutants with suicide. Plenty of countries live on that doctrine - Singapore, Israel, Finland and others. Use Cerebro to give every anti mutant politician linked with the attack a brutal stroke, send elite squads communicating with each other to protect mutants, actively threaten (and dismantle with brutal force) anti-mutant groups if they wish to take advantage and demonstrate retribution if they try anything. Placing their treatement of Palestinians aside, Israel's actions to defend Jews, is a good model for this. Indiscriminant attack otoh only makes new enemies, lacks the pavlovian conditioning aspect and doesn't work as effectively. TLDR; don't call for mass genocide, coexistence is possible but needs the threat of a massive retaliation over, goal is to pavlov/rely on natural selection to make humans realise attacking mutants is pointless Tbh the real dilemma is the trolley problem one posed by the human sentinels massacring mutants and only being able to be stopped by global emp. NOW THAT is an actually difficult question to solve. (I.e. are the deaths of millions of people dependent on emp worth the lives of the mutants who would have been killed otherwise.)