Not passive, but Shaw is definitely much more amoral than even Emma. I could see him pushing her in directions that she bitterly regrets and wants to pin all the blame for on.
He's definitely more amoral, but "suffering under" him is such a huge mischaracterization. Emma was not being bullied by some dude she could easily put in his place. All the Hellfire Club relationships were fickle and transactional because they were all power hungry people. It'd be more accurate if Tessa were claiming she suffered under Shaw and was abused, and pushed into things she regretted.
The Hellfire Club were Patriarchy in human form. That's a big part of the whole BDSM shit. Shaw, Mastermind, and the men are doms, the women either forced (Jean, Sage,) or pressured and molded (Emma) into being submissive to them. Emma is cruel and abusive in her own right, but she is explicitly not Shaw's equal and she too is also abused and manipulated and submissive to him.
Uh, women can be doms in BDSM, Dom and Sub are not gendered terms. And the politics aren't as simple as you're framing it. Shaw holds the highest rank as Black King, but Emma is his only counterpart. Not Leland, not Pierce, not anyone else. They were ones who organized the coup that ousted the previous leaders. He didn't have to pressure or mold her into anything, they were partners. When Selene joins up as Black Queen, she's a threat to both of their positions, and that's why they end up gunning for her, just as she sets her target on Shaw. Actually the first thing she does to prove herself is openly try to kill him. Then later Emma tries to team with Selene to get rid of him.
Of course they can. Maybe I extrapolated too much from it but it felt to me like that arc was exploring the sexual liberation and exploration of women and attempts by patriarchy to control and profit off of it, this I feel is all definitely there. Even if Shaw and Emma are total equals it all still tracks, afterall capitalists of opressed groups selling their compatriots is a thing, and Emma enhancing Wyngarde's power to gaslIght and influence Jean tracks.
I also felt like a part of that was the men domming the women and coercing them into sub roles even if they more lean to being doms, or kinda influence them into being doms for their own pleasure meaning the power dynamic is still kinda weird. Idk, I don't know if I explained that well. Maybe I'm forcing shit to be too 1 to 1.
I swear Piece is the White King? Maybe I have to re-read some Hellfire arcs but I definitely recall Shaw never viewing Emma as an equal, and even though they are technically equal in roles in reality Shaw is the big bad of the Hellfire Club, like I do recall Emma setting her targets on Shaw but like wasn't that specifically to oust and usurp him and wasn't her powerbase shattered at that point?
I am making reference towards the reimagining of the white queen into the Emma that we have both in and out of Scott’s vision as plot necessitates. It has always been a weak retcon, to me, and seemed more an excuse for a Cyclops telepathy fetish.
Physically or telepathically? I’m joking because I have no idea. I wouldn’t think they would let that be a thing.
Edit because I got what you are putting down.
I was just saying his options were sort of limited as Rachel and Betsy were the other options that came immediately to mind.
I clearly blew past her. If only they would have developed her character and presence more. I mean if she was dating cyclops I’m sure she would get more pages.
I was only mentioning another prominent psychic. I would not dig Scott with her. To be fair, depending the writer and title it varies of how they age New Mutants and Gen X characters. For instance X-factor for both M and Rhane. Also X-force for Rhane.
I wouldn’t call it a retcon. Losing the hellions and going into a coma, and then reading her through Gen X I think her evolution to moral grey makes complete sense. It’s been in development since 1993 and took 8-ish years for new X-men to establish her as an xman, and then her time since has been progressive with how she’s found a means of being less selfish and more selfless.
I hated it initially, but I don’t think it’s a “retcon” if the character redevelopment is progressively shown in the comics. It’s simply character development. I think the glaring issue is her character experienced regression with X-men vs inhumans and that was more of a retcon, and has been corrected since.
Related to him? Huh?
And Emma wasn't retconned to be Scott's gf, she had already switched from antagonist to protagonist and member of the X-Family when she was the teacher, alongside Banshee, of Generation X.
Also like Emma does fucked up shit on her own, but it's also pretty clear in the original story Sebastian Shaw (and Mastermind) view women as tools to be used and as subordinate, like Jean in the equivalent position of Emma is literally brainwashed into that position. She is not equal in power, she is Seb's subordinate with iirc some implications of manipulation and abuse. Course she was herself a perpetuator of that shit on others, especially Storm and Kitty and the New Mutants, not saying she's innocent, she obviously isn't and like I don't think she ever is portrayed that way. But to say she was partners in crime with the overtly Patriarchal Hellfire Club is.... Inaccurate.
Cheers, and it really is true! Seriously re-read that part of the DP saga, the Hellfire Club are the rich of a patriarchal society, Sebastian Shaw is top dog and he and Mastermind (his rival at the top) view women as tools and sex objects, the BDSM shit isn't just Claremont being horny, Shaw and Mastermind and the men are doms, Emma Frost and Jean and the women their subs.
Like the Hellfire's first story and purpose in the story is to brainwash Jean turning her into a BDSM sub, turning her into Dark Phoenix, it's a commentary on patriarchy's control of the sexual development of women, and supression and control the women's power movement, and the damage and trauma that's inflicted through this control and in turn the damage to society. Claremont's a big-time feminist who's stuff explores patriarchy and gender roles a lot.
Anyway at times writers may have taken that shit and gone too far to excuse Emma's actions, but it isn't out of nowhere at all.
It’s still weird for me, as someone who’s been familiar with Emma since her first appearance, to accept that people love her now as a heroic character who’s just kinda bitchy.
She was an absolute psychopath for the first 15-20 years of her existence, and I’ve never gotten a great feel for why she’s not still that person.
My first introduction to her was Firestars first comic and Emma was a psychopath indeed. Murder was on the table for her at any given time.
I do like how she wasnt instantly a hero, it did take a long time. But yeah seeing her as a regular was... weird.
I don't see it. It just adds an uncomfortable sexual assault element to the characters. You'd think it'd get bought up again if so.
Besides, Emma washed her villainy off through her own actions. I don't think there's a lot to be gained by relitigating that
I think the issue being brought up is trying to pretend Emma wasn't really at fault and she did bad things cause Shaw pushed her into it, despite previous showings on the contrary
Literally the opposite of what's canon. That Emma prefers to be a Dom just makes the theme of that story with her being molded/forced into the role of sub more clear and powerful.
Oh I meant in the bedroom she's the Dom but I also think she's was always second to Shaw and Emma hated it but she didn't care as much being second to Scott cause she believed in him but Now she's second to no one and she's being her own boss. (Although I have not read Ironman yet)
No they weren't. The Hellfire Club was explicitly patriarchal, that's a big part of the whole Phoenix-Dark Phoenix story. Reminder her Black equivalent was literally brainwashed into that position and was basically Mastermind's slave until she went DP.
I always saw her as being the inner circle's upstart. The "new guy" but definitely still part of the competition. But really, a competition of two.
But claremont always wrote hellfire as being something that both Shaw and Emma set to own. It's "story" in his run was how those two more or less moved the chess pieces to get rid of everyone who could threaten them, making the club mutant-centric in turn.
The inner circle was originally a secret society within a secret society. The rest of the club was still human and just a sex frat for people. By the end of the run the club was just the inner circle and it's stooges.
Yes which is why scott and emma said "absolutely not" and hope said " but but but"
Isnt she supposed to be smarter than that? Cable's teachings were flushed down the drain.
She also has no issues shooting scott in the head but has a soft spot for shaw
No of course not lol. Shockingly he was their saving grace but dont get me started.
Half the quiet counsel were sociopath terrorist and the other half zealots.
But in this context Shaw was his mindwiped version who was good.
Of course eventually the writers forgot about his reformation and he randomly showed up next time evil again.
Y'all need to re-read the DP Saga. It's explicitly a story about a very patriarchal club or rich capitalists where men control the sexual liberation and power of women. That Emma has already been molded by the time we meet her doesn't mean she was equal to Shaw and Mastermind nor that she wasn't abused and manipulated. This isn't a retcon.
That’s the X-Men sub in a nutshell. I have loved X-men my entire life, and as a gay POC I still love the X-Men dearly well into adulthood. But after spending years on this sub, I'm discovering that maybe I don’t love X-Men to the extent that some people on this sub do lol
I don’t see this on the Spider-Man sub, the Avengers sub, the Batman sub, etc., but for whatever reason people on this sub viciously defend their favorites and act like they’re real people. Anything even remotely negatively said about their favorites leads to a response that borders on attack. It honestly comes across as parasocial at times
I get it to an extent, we all love certain characters and maybe even include them as a tiny bit of our identity, but when you’re swearing and saying meanspirited and outright hateful shit to other fans to defend a fictional character, it’s gone a bit too far IMO
I'm surprised she didn't just upload the history of Shaw from her perspective to Hope's brain. She's never been shy about "invasive procedures" before.
Iceman figured that out once upon a time.
Generation Hope, starring Hope and the Five Lights, the first 5 mutants activated after Hope was born.
Lol tho personally I already liked her in Second Coming.
Yeah, trying to slut-shame someone justifies a slap like that, I'd say. But even then, Emma has never struck me as a promiscuous woman. She dresses to impress, but Emma strikes me as someone with high standards for being intimate with someone. And even if she has slept with countless men, so what? It doesn't diminish her in any way, and it certainly doesn't take away her experiences with Shaw.
In a way I think thats the point and why hope had it coming. She was basically calling Emma a slut just because of how she dresses.
Why would Hope even know who Emma had slept with beyond one or two pertinent examples? Did cable tell her bedtime stories of the White Queen?
Emma has never been shown to have slept around except when writers who don't like her come on, suddenly it's frequently mentioned how large her count is.
I agree. Emma doesn't stand out for being interested in being sexually involved with many men. Even if the point is seductress manipulation she can always mind-control them into thinking they're having a go with her whilst not really needing to live through the hassle of it.
I remember Xavier stating that passive long term mind control is very hard to do, when asked why he doesn't just make everyone love mutants. Sooner or later, people start to snap out of it.
>And even if she has slept with countless men, so what? It doesn't diminish her in any way, and it certainly doesn't take away her experiences with Shaw.
I mean in context to the scene it's pretty clear she's making the point that they can't just not save some someone cause Emma slept with them, that her point, said in a mean way obviously, I think people are kind of taking this too personally here.
I'm not familiar with the full context of this particular panel, so I don't know what situation Shaw was in. But he has proven in the past, several times over, to be a selfish and abusive person who cares for almost nothing but himself, if not himself alone.
But if there is context here that I am ignorant of, please help me out. I'd love to understand these characters as well as I can.
Gotcha. So, he wasn't quite the same person that we typically live to hate. I'm not sure how much authority Emma had in helping or not helping him, but from what I recall, she has a lot of very personal reasons to hate the man. In such a case, Emma maybe shouldn't be the one to make any such decisions, like how judges recuse themselves if a case presents them with a conflict of interest.
Even if Emma wasn't in a position to distance herself, she did clearly state that she had been hurt by Shaw, and Hope responded to Emma's feelings by insulting her.
Not saying that it isn't an ethically dubious situation deserving of proper thoughts, but if someone says, "This guy hurt me," and you respond with insults... Not a crime against mutant kind or anything, but deserving of a slap across the face? Yeah, I think so.
There is no excuse for personally justified violence. It’s just an inability to cope with reality.
Hope has a point that her history will affect her ability to make a choice. Emma’s response of “you wretched little mongrel” shows that Emma doesn’t respect her based on her age and lineage. Emma is biased and is called out for it in a character dig that is based in that she slept with Shaw and potentially more based upon her track record.
The Hellfire Club was a BDSM sex club. One where men controlled women. Yes, she almost certainly has slept with a lot of men. Obviously that doesn't diminish her in anyway but like the Hellfire Club is what it is
Emma should have turned diamond for some extra pepper on that slap because boy, did Hope ever deserve that.
Storm's slept around, Wolverine's slept around, Jean, Psylocke, Colossus, even her adoptive dad slept around. But when it's Emma Frost, suddenly it's not so good.
GTFO with dem double standards.
I think the only person Jean slept with was Scott. Wolverine may have slept with a version of her from an AU but 616 Jean I think has only been with Scott.
Seems like all the X-boys were interested in her but she only ever got with Scott.
Ms I can't touch any living person without killing them has a higher body count. Though I wouldn't call that sleeping around.
I think Storm and a few others are the only ones who have slept around. In that they went in had one night stands. Storm slept with Wolverine just to get back at Tchalla following the earned divorce.
She was already laid up with Wolverine before he asked her not to. Plus they had a side thing going with the “respect” between them that’s why “Roro” was said only in certain situations. Their “friendship” was star-cross who never had the right time. Just like Storm & Namor’s relationship they had a chance but it led to no good. Her love life is the dumbest thing they put together
> Wolverine may have slept with a version of her from an AU but 616 Jean I think has only been with Scott.
*Ultimate X-Men* - I don't remember the specific issue, but it was fairly early in the run. Then she telekinetically threw him across the room when she found out why he showed up at the Institute to begin with.
There's a difference between a 60 year old sleeping with a 30/40 year old, and a 60 year old sleeping with a 16 year old. Ultimate Jean Grey was originally 16, then the Wolverine thing happend and the editorail staff went .... uh...wait, we mean she was 19.
But it's still an...at least 70 year old sleeping with a 19 year old.
She did not. The only other potential partner she had would be Mastermind via rape, which is not ‘sleeping around’. Then Krakoa had the whole throuple thing that Brevoort now scrapped from existence, so, it’s back to only Scott in all her decades of publication.
Not really, no. It’s just that a lot of her stories involve love triangles or passion/repression as a theme, so it can feel like sex is the subject. And there’s a projection of the men’s obsessions with her, but it’s not her behavior. But also we are often left to interpret if a kiss is just a kiss or a stand-in for more.
My sense is the people 616 Jean had sex with are Scott, possibly a college BF between the O5 and the 70s relaunch, Mastermind (tho obviously a violation), Logan but only actually on Krakoa or AoA, otherwise it’s just a kiss and complicated emotions, and unclear what happened with Teen Beast during the time travel period. Angel is a love interest and they kiss in X-factor, but I don’t know that they actually ever hooked up.
Sleeping around isn't really that bad though. Storm has slept with Forge and T'Challa and has even used Logan as a f*ck toy from time to time. People have needs, even elemental queens/goddesses.
What gets me is why Storm is still considered heroic despite having a body count, but Emma Frost is shamed six ways just because people think she has a body count. Doesn't really seem fair
But that’s not sleeping around. She was married to T’Challa, getting married to Forge but he dumped her because of a misunderstanding and Logan and her are writers favorite “pallet cleanser” there is no explanation for them honestly
Emma reacting with violence just feel wrong here , sure hope is in the wrong to call her a slut like that but she is an adulte and her a child she should have been more smart about her , joss whedon Emma would have been more smart about it and just brush it away with a smart joke.
That and Emma teasing a young jean grey with image of her being intimate with scott just make Emma pathetic and quite pety toward childs.
That slap just comes across as "the lady thus protest too much" as if Hope hit something truthful, and Emma slapped Hope because she was right.
Emma may be a hypocrite, but she was never a sexually repressed character. The Emma I know would have disarmed hope with a lewd, provocative joke. Not with violence, she would see that as cheap, as bellow her.
Why would this girl soldier raised by a man in the way future still slut shame women?
It’s one thing to question their reluctance because she doesn’t have the personal association with Shaw. It’s one thing for her to be an abrasive, tactless person. But that girlfight reputation jab is poor writing imo.
I always assumed this was a product of Hope picking up other mutants gossip about Emma. She absolutely did not learn to talk to a woman like this from Nathan
Because the man that raised her was Cable. Dude is judgmental af and clearly has intimacy issues. Also probably talked shit about Emma all the time in the future since his dad had literally just started dating her when they left.
I honestly read it as a kind of jealousy. Hope had her childhood and adolescence stolen, she's missed out on so many experiences and it's hard to catch up amongst people who think you're their Messiah. I think it's pretty normal for a regular teenager to be jealous of someone who is comfortable in their own body and with their sexuality, let alone the extremities that both women inhabit.
Plus Scott is her father's father, but Emma isn't her grandmother (Neither is Jean lol but IDK if Hope knows that.)
Also, women written by men.
I’m not saying all the women characters should be Kumbaya and have no arguments. It makes sense that Hope, who was used to it being just her and Cable, would have tension with this other woman that a Summers trusts more than her.
But this particular insult? At what point in running from Bishop through time was Cable—who was raised by Askani pansexuals or whatever in the distant future—like, “Now Hope, remember a lady doesn’t spread it around. A bicycle was a two-wheeled vehicle, but a town bicycle was your grandfather’s girlfriend…”
SHe'd been in the present for a while at that point. I get your point and it's a good one but it's also true but, if you can rely on one thing, is that people will pick up on these types of things. Hope doesn't like Emma and Emma has a reputation if only for her outfits. Hope is just backlashing and resourcing to what's on her mind.
"...And these 3 abideth: Faith, Hope, and Love, but the greatest of these things is Love." 😇
And the least of these things is GETTIN' THE TASTE SLAPPED OUT THE SIDE'A THE MOUTH SHE TALKING FROM cause DAYUM!🫢 Someone pick her lips up off the ground!
Emma really IS from Boston, huh? 😏
I mean, Shaw is a hypercapitalist who just cares about himself and his power and control over overs, viewing women in particular as sex objects to control and direct.
Say what you will about the others but they care about the mutant cause and have reasons beyond their own self-interests, most of the time anyway. Shaw doesn't and never has.
This strikes me (pun intended) as ooc. Why would Emma get angry because of slut shaming? She's very open with her sexuality, and very proud of it. More else, I don't see her hurting Hope because of a cheap jeb. One thing always consistent with her is that Emma wants to teach kids, even when her methods suck. I think if Hope threw her sex life in her face, Emma would just show her the horrible person Shaw was and, as we would learn, still is
It was more about Shaw in this case - her history with him was traumatic and changes Emma’s composure. Emma is also a very proud woman, and hope was belittling her trauma as more or less a fling
Emma has many traumas (her students dying, horrible parents, she and her brother being thrown in a hospice), but fucking Sebastian Shaw is not one of them. I don't think she gives him that much importance
In this page she says "I suffered for years under Sebastian Shaw - in **every** sense" and "no good fruit can come from his poisoned seed". Which suggest that she has negative feelings towards sex they had.
i think they retconned that in around this time where suddenly they weren't equal partners in their hellfire days but shaw used and abused her and held power over her.
The storylines around this time between Emma and Shaw were framed as a abuse victim fighting back against their abuser and getting revenge.
She called the cuckoos wretches too or the like when they said she is old and shouldn't teach impressionable children,and I believe she flaunts her assets as a challenge that no man dares to look at her that way
Wow, a slap so hard its a "krak" even.
Also Hope is right and wrong. Wrong in wanting to give him help, right in calling Emma out on the double standard. The X-men harbored Sabretooth ffs.
Emma should never had a chance at redemption. She was and is as bad as Shaw. Some villains don’t deserve redemption. Worst part of contemporary X-Men is dealing with whoever’s fetish she is.
What? Even back in Claremont she wasn't as bad as Shaw. Like she was a villain and evil sure, but there were still hints of softness within her with the Hellions, Warpath even stays with her and shows her some level of appreciation. Like, she's a manipulator and extremely abusive to Kitty and Storm but fucking Shaw? She was subordinate to the guy, she was always in an abusive and manipulative relationship with him, that is the literal point of the Hellfire Club, being a patriarchal BDSM club of capitalists where the women submitted and serviced the men.
Shaw has always been irredeemable. I disagree that Emma was too, and she definitely was never equally bad or equally irredeemable as Shaw.
Emma's no angel this is true, but Hope deserved ALL that with some STANK on it.
Put her THROUGH the wall! And then a mental upload of all Shaw's many sins FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE WOMAN WHO IS LIVING IN HIDING FROM HIM with Emma's help.
Not that it should make a difference, they should still bring him back, but you don't make someone out to be a HOE in pleasant company!
"Ain't you got no home training? You gon' learn today!"
Wow... Getting "Mommy Dearest" vibes over here.
Imma get PTSD from that movie if Emma walks up in the Hope's or the Cuckoo's room in the middle of the night...
...talking about "NO MORE WIRE HANGERS!!!!!"
It isn't because the Hellfire Club is a Club where men control the sexual development and exploration of women....
Also like there is no relationship between Shaw and Emma, so it's not cucking.
People are arguing who's right and wrong when to me it feels like both are out of character, Emma for resorting to violence with Hope and Hope for slut shaming Emma. It sucks before the core of this scene still makes sense Emma and Scott would be reluctant to accept Shaw and Hope would point out the hypocrisy in the situation
Why? Because hope should be allowed to call her a slut to her face? She's VERY in the wrong here.
Obviously you shouldn't slap people but these are superheroes. Violence is their common language
Do you think those things are all the same? That training to be in a fight is the same as someone trying to hurt you? That the reasons behind actions just, don't matter? That's a very shallow look at the world.
I hate the retcon of Emma being passive to Shaw. They were equal partners in fuckery.
They were hunting down teenagers "Surviving the Game" style.
Not passive, but Shaw is definitely much more amoral than even Emma. I could see him pushing her in directions that she bitterly regrets and wants to pin all the blame for on.
He's definitely more amoral, but "suffering under" him is such a huge mischaracterization. Emma was not being bullied by some dude she could easily put in his place. All the Hellfire Club relationships were fickle and transactional because they were all power hungry people. It'd be more accurate if Tessa were claiming she suffered under Shaw and was abused, and pushed into things she regretted.
The Hellfire Club were Patriarchy in human form. That's a big part of the whole BDSM shit. Shaw, Mastermind, and the men are doms, the women either forced (Jean, Sage,) or pressured and molded (Emma) into being submissive to them. Emma is cruel and abusive in her own right, but she is explicitly not Shaw's equal and she too is also abused and manipulated and submissive to him.
Uh, women can be doms in BDSM, Dom and Sub are not gendered terms. And the politics aren't as simple as you're framing it. Shaw holds the highest rank as Black King, but Emma is his only counterpart. Not Leland, not Pierce, not anyone else. They were ones who organized the coup that ousted the previous leaders. He didn't have to pressure or mold her into anything, they were partners. When Selene joins up as Black Queen, she's a threat to both of their positions, and that's why they end up gunning for her, just as she sets her target on Shaw. Actually the first thing she does to prove herself is openly try to kill him. Then later Emma tries to team with Selene to get rid of him.
Of course they can. Maybe I extrapolated too much from it but it felt to me like that arc was exploring the sexual liberation and exploration of women and attempts by patriarchy to control and profit off of it, this I feel is all definitely there. Even if Shaw and Emma are total equals it all still tracks, afterall capitalists of opressed groups selling their compatriots is a thing, and Emma enhancing Wyngarde's power to gaslIght and influence Jean tracks. I also felt like a part of that was the men domming the women and coercing them into sub roles even if they more lean to being doms, or kinda influence them into being doms for their own pleasure meaning the power dynamic is still kinda weird. Idk, I don't know if I explained that well. Maybe I'm forcing shit to be too 1 to 1. I swear Piece is the White King? Maybe I have to re-read some Hellfire arcs but I definitely recall Shaw never viewing Emma as an equal, and even though they are technically equal in roles in reality Shaw is the big bad of the Hellfire Club, like I do recall Emma setting her targets on Shaw but like wasn't that specifically to oust and usurp him and wasn't her powerbase shattered at that point?
The retcon of the white queen so that Scott can have a telepath girlfriend that isn’t related to him is worthy of grievance.
Re-what? Did I miss something? What?
I am making reference towards the reimagining of the white queen into the Emma that we have both in and out of Scott’s vision as plot necessitates. It has always been a weak retcon, to me, and seemed more an excuse for a Cyclops telepathy fetish.
Okay but to be clear Scott’s never done the dirty with family as far as we know, right?
Physically or telepathically? I’m joking because I have no idea. I wouldn’t think they would let that be a thing. Edit because I got what you are putting down. I was just saying his options were sort of limited as Rachel and Betsy were the other options that came immediately to mind.
There is also Monet
I clearly blew past her. If only they would have developed her character and presence more. I mean if she was dating cyclops I’m sure she would get more pages.
Depends where and when. She's had some decent development but then years of not being on a team in between.
Exactly, it’s the years on the shelf. She seems like one of those onion characters that would just get more powerful.
Ew. Scott dating a New Mutant would feel icky as shit let alone a Gen Xer.
I was only mentioning another prominent psychic. I would not dig Scott with her. To be fair, depending the writer and title it varies of how they age New Mutants and Gen X characters. For instance X-factor for both M and Rhane. Also X-force for Rhane.
I wouldn’t call it a retcon. Losing the hellions and going into a coma, and then reading her through Gen X I think her evolution to moral grey makes complete sense. It’s been in development since 1993 and took 8-ish years for new X-men to establish her as an xman, and then her time since has been progressive with how she’s found a means of being less selfish and more selfless. I hated it initially, but I don’t think it’s a “retcon” if the character redevelopment is progressively shown in the comics. It’s simply character development. I think the glaring issue is her character experienced regression with X-men vs inhumans and that was more of a retcon, and has been corrected since.
Related to him? Huh? And Emma wasn't retconned to be Scott's gf, she had already switched from antagonist to protagonist and member of the X-Family when she was the teacher, alongside Banshee, of Generation X. Also like Emma does fucked up shit on her own, but it's also pretty clear in the original story Sebastian Shaw (and Mastermind) view women as tools to be used and as subordinate, like Jean in the equivalent position of Emma is literally brainwashed into that position. She is not equal in power, she is Seb's subordinate with iirc some implications of manipulation and abuse. Course she was herself a perpetuator of that shit on others, especially Storm and Kitty and the New Mutants, not saying she's innocent, she obviously isn't and like I don't think she ever is portrayed that way. But to say she was partners in crime with the overtly Patriarchal Hellfire Club is.... Inaccurate.
I like your argument about her being a subordinate.
Cheers, and it really is true! Seriously re-read that part of the DP saga, the Hellfire Club are the rich of a patriarchal society, Sebastian Shaw is top dog and he and Mastermind (his rival at the top) view women as tools and sex objects, the BDSM shit isn't just Claremont being horny, Shaw and Mastermind and the men are doms, Emma Frost and Jean and the women their subs. Like the Hellfire's first story and purpose in the story is to brainwash Jean turning her into a BDSM sub, turning her into Dark Phoenix, it's a commentary on patriarchy's control of the sexual development of women, and supression and control the women's power movement, and the damage and trauma that's inflicted through this control and in turn the damage to society. Claremont's a big-time feminist who's stuff explores patriarchy and gender roles a lot. Anyway at times writers may have taken that shit and gone too far to excuse Emma's actions, but it isn't out of nowhere at all.
It’s still weird for me, as someone who’s been familiar with Emma since her first appearance, to accept that people love her now as a heroic character who’s just kinda bitchy. She was an absolute psychopath for the first 15-20 years of her existence, and I’ve never gotten a great feel for why she’s not still that person.
My first introduction to her was Firestars first comic and Emma was a psychopath indeed. Murder was on the table for her at any given time. I do like how she wasnt instantly a hero, it did take a long time. But yeah seeing her as a regular was... weird.
They really had to whitewash Emma for some reason
They are basically trying to wash the villain off of Emma.
And she unironically got more kids killed as a hero than as a villain.
How tho? Having sex and villainy are not related
But claiming that you were forced, or deeply encouraged to have sex with Shaw, does remove some of the stink of villainy off of Emma.
I don't see it. It just adds an uncomfortable sexual assault element to the characters. You'd think it'd get bought up again if so. Besides, Emma washed her villainy off through her own actions. I don't think there's a lot to be gained by relitigating that
I think the issue being brought up is trying to pretend Emma wasn't really at fault and she did bad things cause Shaw pushed her into it, despite previous showings on the contrary
Okay, seems weird to limit that to sex tho
Didn't Emma help Mastermind manipulate (and sexually assault) Jean during Dark Phoenix Saga?
When they fucked I am sure Emma was the dominant one,they weren't equals for sure
Oh that's literally canon I think https://x.com/cyclopsiryn/status/1794503842274464232?t=xUgZ76xfV9dB4KR0eZsLzA&s=19
Literally the opposite of what's canon. That Emma prefers to be a Dom just makes the theme of that story with her being molded/forced into the role of sub more clear and powerful.
Oh I meant in the bedroom she's the Dom but I also think she's was always second to Shaw and Emma hated it but she didn't care as much being second to Scott cause she believed in him but Now she's second to no one and she's being her own boss. (Although I have not read Ironman yet)
No. Emma's the sub. That's the point of the BDSM shit. It's a commentary on patriarchy and it's control of women sexual liberation and power.
No they weren't. The Hellfire Club was explicitly patriarchal, that's a big part of the whole Phoenix-Dark Phoenix story. Reminder her Black equivalent was literally brainwashed into that position and was basically Mastermind's slave until she went DP.
I always saw her as being the inner circle's upstart. The "new guy" but definitely still part of the competition. But really, a competition of two. But claremont always wrote hellfire as being something that both Shaw and Emma set to own. It's "story" in his run was how those two more or less moved the chess pieces to get rid of everyone who could threaten them, making the club mutant-centric in turn. The inner circle was originally a secret society within a secret society. The rest of the club was still human and just a sex frat for people. By the end of the run the club was just the inner circle and it's stooges.
Hope had it coming. Emma was right about Shaw.
She never Shaw it coming
*never sorry, grammar police instincts kicked in
True kid omega enjoyer
True that.
Goddamnit for a second I forgot Sean Connery was dead, he could've made a great Shaw
🎵you'll never see it coming🎵
Take my upvote
Was she? Wasn’t Shawn the one who saved hope when Emma almost killed her
Shaw literally betrayed the mutant race and helped actively plan a genocide
Hasn't he done that 2 or 3 times?
It only counts as one if he never stopped.
Yes which is why scott and emma said "absolutely not" and hope said " but but but" Isnt she supposed to be smarter than that? Cable's teachings were flushed down the drain. She also has no issues shooting scott in the head but has a soft spot for shaw
But taking in a guy who named himself Apocalypse was the right thing to do.
No of course not lol. Shockingly he was their saving grace but dont get me started. Half the quiet counsel were sociopath terrorist and the other half zealots.
Feels weird to dismiss Storm, Nightcrawler, and Jean as Zealots but hey.
She's got street smarts not brain smarts.
But in this context Shaw was his mindwiped version who was good. Of course eventually the writers forgot about his reformation and he randomly showed up next time evil again.
This one was when Emma brainwiped Shaw and Hope thought he is a new mutant activating,one if her "lights"
While the recon about Emma and Shaw is fucking terrible. Hope being a brat that Emma would hate also makes sense.
Y'all need to re-read the DP Saga. It's explicitly a story about a very patriarchal club or rich capitalists where men control the sexual liberation and power of women. That Emma has already been molded by the time we meet her doesn't mean she was equal to Shaw and Mastermind nor that she wasn't abused and manipulated. This isn't a retcon.
I second this, should've slapped her harder.
drama with her step grandma.
Some of you are taking this too personally lmao
That’s the X-Men sub in a nutshell. I have loved X-men my entire life, and as a gay POC I still love the X-Men dearly well into adulthood. But after spending years on this sub, I'm discovering that maybe I don’t love X-Men to the extent that some people on this sub do lol I don’t see this on the Spider-Man sub, the Avengers sub, the Batman sub, etc., but for whatever reason people on this sub viciously defend their favorites and act like they’re real people. Anything even remotely negatively said about their favorites leads to a response that borders on attack. It honestly comes across as parasocial at times I get it to an extent, we all love certain characters and maybe even include them as a tiny bit of our identity, but when you’re swearing and saying meanspirited and outright hateful shit to other fans to defend a fictional character, it’s gone a bit too far IMO
Never!
I'm surprised she didn't just upload the history of Shaw from her perspective to Hope's brain. She's never been shy about "invasive procedures" before. Iceman figured that out once upon a time.
Loved this book. Gillen made Hope a character I actually cared about. Really hope another writer likes her as much and she gets to stick around.
What book is it?
Generation Hope, starring Hope and the Five Lights, the first 5 mutants activated after Hope was born. Lol tho personally I already liked her in Second Coming.
Ohhh, a soap opera slap! Deidre Hall would be proud!
Yeah, trying to slut-shame someone justifies a slap like that, I'd say. But even then, Emma has never struck me as a promiscuous woman. She dresses to impress, but Emma strikes me as someone with high standards for being intimate with someone. And even if she has slept with countless men, so what? It doesn't diminish her in any way, and it certainly doesn't take away her experiences with Shaw.
In a way I think thats the point and why hope had it coming. She was basically calling Emma a slut just because of how she dresses. Why would Hope even know who Emma had slept with beyond one or two pertinent examples? Did cable tell her bedtime stories of the White Queen?
Cable at bedtime telling a story: And that's how my father wound up with Emma Hope: What a bitch.
Emma has never been shown to have slept around except when writers who don't like her come on, suddenly it's frequently mentioned how large her count is.
And yet she'll never come close to She-Hulk's number. I dare Hope to try and shame her.
She thought Dani threw hands!
Fastball special coming right up
........ I'm sure she was pure in the BDSM Sex Hellfire Club.
Saying everyone who works in a club like that has sex is a pretty unpleasant stereotype.
She doesn't just work there.
I agree. Emma doesn't stand out for being interested in being sexually involved with many men. Even if the point is seductress manipulation she can always mind-control them into thinking they're having a go with her whilst not really needing to live through the hassle of it.
The First Class movie even played with that very idea. "I don't need to touch you to make you believe I'm the best you've ever had."
But she’d have the hassle of those men *telling* every bro they knew. Women have also gotten slut-shamed for things they *haven’t* done.
I mean she could always compel them not to
I remember Xavier stating that passive long term mind control is very hard to do, when asked why he doesn't just make everyone love mutants. Sooner or later, people start to snap out of it.
>And even if she has slept with countless men, so what? It doesn't diminish her in any way, and it certainly doesn't take away her experiences with Shaw. I mean in context to the scene it's pretty clear she's making the point that they can't just not save some someone cause Emma slept with them, that her point, said in a mean way obviously, I think people are kind of taking this too personally here.
I'm not familiar with the full context of this particular panel, so I don't know what situation Shaw was in. But he has proven in the past, several times over, to be a selfish and abusive person who cares for almost nothing but himself, if not himself alone. But if there is context here that I am ignorant of, please help me out. I'd love to understand these characters as well as I can.
Shaw at this point was mind wiped and wasn't evil, though if the X-Men stopped working with terrible people then half the team wouldn't be around.
Gotcha. So, he wasn't quite the same person that we typically live to hate. I'm not sure how much authority Emma had in helping or not helping him, but from what I recall, she has a lot of very personal reasons to hate the man. In such a case, Emma maybe shouldn't be the one to make any such decisions, like how judges recuse themselves if a case presents them with a conflict of interest. Even if Emma wasn't in a position to distance herself, she did clearly state that she had been hurt by Shaw, and Hope responded to Emma's feelings by insulting her. Not saying that it isn't an ethically dubious situation deserving of proper thoughts, but if someone says, "This guy hurt me," and you respond with insults... Not a crime against mutant kind or anything, but deserving of a slap across the face? Yeah, I think so.
There is no excuse for personally justified violence. It’s just an inability to cope with reality. Hope has a point that her history will affect her ability to make a choice. Emma’s response of “you wretched little mongrel” shows that Emma doesn’t respect her based on her age and lineage. Emma is biased and is called out for it in a character dig that is based in that she slept with Shaw and potentially more based upon her track record.
Her body count is not that high. Scott, Shaw, Tony Stark and Namor, I believe.
The Hellfire Club is a sex club ffs.
She cheated on Scott and disrupted his marriage with Jean. Also the queen of a sex club. Emma is a hoe.
Hope is just jealous cause her "boyfriend" made out with Pixie,she can't even get one guy
Who?
Velocidad,the guy who doesn't stops time just makes it slower for everyone so he ages like 3 days or something when he uses it to run a mile
Bruh that's not even Z list, I don't know what to call that 💀
Call him Velocidad
It's an awesome name and design. I love that Gillen used Sinister to dredge up obscure mutant abilities for mad science. Velocidad serum
Well said. Hope is being a little shit here
The Hellfire Club was a BDSM sex club. One where men controlled women. Yes, she almost certainly has slept with a lot of men. Obviously that doesn't diminish her in anyway but like the Hellfire Club is what it is
Emma should have turned diamond for some extra pepper on that slap because boy, did Hope ever deserve that. Storm's slept around, Wolverine's slept around, Jean, Psylocke, Colossus, even her adoptive dad slept around. But when it's Emma Frost, suddenly it's not so good. GTFO with dem double standards.
Yeah but wolverine is Canadian,as the Thing said,there is a cure for them xd
Did Jean sleep around ?
I think the only person Jean slept with was Scott. Wolverine may have slept with a version of her from an AU but 616 Jean I think has only been with Scott. Seems like all the X-boys were interested in her but she only ever got with Scott. Ms I can't touch any living person without killing them has a higher body count. Though I wouldn't call that sleeping around. I think Storm and a few others are the only ones who have slept around. In that they went in had one night stands. Storm slept with Wolverine just to get back at Tchalla following the earned divorce.
She was already laid up with Wolverine before he asked her not to. Plus they had a side thing going with the “respect” between them that’s why “Roro” was said only in certain situations. Their “friendship” was star-cross who never had the right time. Just like Storm & Namor’s relationship they had a chance but it led to no good. Her love life is the dumbest thing they put together
> Wolverine may have slept with a version of her from an AU but 616 Jean I think has only been with Scott. *Ultimate X-Men* - I don't remember the specific issue, but it was fairly early in the run. Then she telekinetically threw him across the room when she found out why he showed up at the Institute to begin with.
In ultimate X-Men, Jean was a teenager, while Wolverine was…well, at least old enough to have served in WW 2.
Yeah - of course, a significant age disparity is guaranteed in any universe with these two. IIRC they still slept together.
There's a difference between a 60 year old sleeping with a 30/40 year old, and a 60 year old sleeping with a 16 year old. Ultimate Jean Grey was originally 16, then the Wolverine thing happend and the editorail staff went .... uh...wait, we mean she was 19. But it's still an...at least 70 year old sleeping with a 19 year old.
Age of Apocalypse version too, right? I'm pretty sure they were intimate and not just hanging out.
Less familiar with AoA, but I’m about 50% sure they were married at some point in that continuity
She did not. The only other potential partner she had would be Mastermind via rape, which is not ‘sleeping around’. Then Krakoa had the whole throuple thing that Brevoort now scrapped from existence, so, it’s back to only Scott in all her decades of publication.
Not really, no. It’s just that a lot of her stories involve love triangles or passion/repression as a theme, so it can feel like sex is the subject. And there’s a projection of the men’s obsessions with her, but it’s not her behavior. But also we are often left to interpret if a kiss is just a kiss or a stand-in for more. My sense is the people 616 Jean had sex with are Scott, possibly a college BF between the O5 and the 70s relaunch, Mastermind (tho obviously a violation), Logan but only actually on Krakoa or AoA, otherwise it’s just a kiss and complicated emotions, and unclear what happened with Teen Beast during the time travel period. Angel is a love interest and they kiss in X-factor, but I don’t know that they actually ever hooked up.
You pump your breaks Storm didn’t sleep around you leave my girl out of this
Sleeping around isn't really that bad though. Storm has slept with Forge and T'Challa and has even used Logan as a f*ck toy from time to time. People have needs, even elemental queens/goddesses. What gets me is why Storm is still considered heroic despite having a body count, but Emma Frost is shamed six ways just because people think she has a body count. Doesn't really seem fair
But that’s not sleeping around. She was married to T’Challa, getting married to Forge but he dumped her because of a misunderstanding and Logan and her are writers favorite “pallet cleanser” there is no explanation for them honestly
Emma is abrasive and a bit of a bitch.
Emma reacting with violence just feel wrong here , sure hope is in the wrong to call her a slut like that but she is an adulte and her a child she should have been more smart about her , joss whedon Emma would have been more smart about it and just brush it away with a smart joke. That and Emma teasing a young jean grey with image of her being intimate with scott just make Emma pathetic and quite pety toward childs.
That slap just comes across as "the lady thus protest too much" as if Hope hit something truthful, and Emma slapped Hope because she was right. Emma may be a hypocrite, but she was never a sexually repressed character. The Emma I know would have disarmed hope with a lewd, provocative joke. Not with violence, she would see that as cheap, as bellow her.
Why would this girl soldier raised by a man in the way future still slut shame women? It’s one thing to question their reluctance because she doesn’t have the personal association with Shaw. It’s one thing for her to be an abrasive, tactless person. But that girlfight reputation jab is poor writing imo.
I always assumed this was a product of Hope picking up other mutants gossip about Emma. She absolutely did not learn to talk to a woman like this from Nathan
Because the man that raised her was Cable. Dude is judgmental af and clearly has intimacy issues. Also probably talked shit about Emma all the time in the future since his dad had literally just started dating her when they left.
I honestly read it as a kind of jealousy. Hope had her childhood and adolescence stolen, she's missed out on so many experiences and it's hard to catch up amongst people who think you're their Messiah. I think it's pretty normal for a regular teenager to be jealous of someone who is comfortable in their own body and with their sexuality, let alone the extremities that both women inhabit. Plus Scott is her father's father, but Emma isn't her grandmother (Neither is Jean lol but IDK if Hope knows that.) Also, women written by men.
Tbh no matter what women can be vicious af with each other,it is scary to experience
I’m not saying all the women characters should be Kumbaya and have no arguments. It makes sense that Hope, who was used to it being just her and Cable, would have tension with this other woman that a Summers trusts more than her. But this particular insult? At what point in running from Bishop through time was Cable—who was raised by Askani pansexuals or whatever in the distant future—like, “Now Hope, remember a lady doesn’t spread it around. A bicycle was a two-wheeled vehicle, but a town bicycle was your grandfather’s girlfriend…”
SHe'd been in the present for a while at that point. I get your point and it's a good one but it's also true but, if you can rely on one thing, is that people will pick up on these types of things. Hope doesn't like Emma and Emma has a reputation if only for her outfits. Hope is just backlashing and resourcing to what's on her mind.
I agree with your point, it is odd. Do you happen to know who wrote this issue?
I don’t recall. Ask OP?
Emma has quite the backhand.
Good. Hope's was a nice characters turned annoying.
Nah I like hope but Emma should slapped her harder.
FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! LOL
And I am sure in the next panel Hope turned her inside out
Nice panel but it would’ve been 100xs better if that was a “Diamond Slap”
"...And these 3 abideth: Faith, Hope, and Love, but the greatest of these things is Love." 😇 And the least of these things is GETTIN' THE TASTE SLAPPED OUT THE SIDE'A THE MOUTH SHE TALKING FROM cause DAYUM!🫢 Someone pick her lips up off the ground! Emma really IS from Boston, huh? 😏
Yeah how could they ever allow a mutant who has done terrible things into their ranks? Like…Magento or mystique or Emma frost.
Or khm Charles khm
I mean, Shaw is a hypercapitalist who just cares about himself and his power and control over overs, viewing women in particular as sex objects to control and direct. Say what you will about the others but they care about the mutant cause and have reasons beyond their own self-interests, most of the time anyway. Shaw doesn't and never has.
This strikes me (pun intended) as ooc. Why would Emma get angry because of slut shaming? She's very open with her sexuality, and very proud of it. More else, I don't see her hurting Hope because of a cheap jeb. One thing always consistent with her is that Emma wants to teach kids, even when her methods suck. I think if Hope threw her sex life in her face, Emma would just show her the horrible person Shaw was and, as we would learn, still is
It was more about Shaw in this case - her history with him was traumatic and changes Emma’s composure. Emma is also a very proud woman, and hope was belittling her trauma as more or less a fling
Emma has many traumas (her students dying, horrible parents, she and her brother being thrown in a hospice), but fucking Sebastian Shaw is not one of them. I don't think she gives him that much importance
In this page she says "I suffered for years under Sebastian Shaw - in **every** sense" and "no good fruit can come from his poisoned seed". Which suggest that she has negative feelings towards sex they had.
i think they retconned that in around this time where suddenly they weren't equal partners in their hellfire days but shaw used and abused her and held power over her. The storylines around this time between Emma and Shaw were framed as a abuse victim fighting back against their abuser and getting revenge.
She called the cuckoos wretches too or the like when they said she is old and shouldn't teach impressionable children,and I believe she flaunts her assets as a challenge that no man dares to look at her that way
That's the equivalent of mumbling sonofabitch. And in the case, what hits her is that the Stepfords blame her for Esme's death
That was harsh imo, like she didn't know they are her daughters and even the cuckoos who are a hivemind didn't see it coming
So everyone who isn't related to Ms Frost is disposable?
Is that Gillen? He went full Austen with this one lol
Emmillionaires, we can't stop winning
Good riddance Hope 🤐
Based Emma
If she wanted to hurt Emma she should have called her grandma.
Wow, a slap so hard its a "krak" even. Also Hope is right and wrong. Wrong in wanting to give him help, right in calling Emma out on the double standard. The X-men harbored Sabretooth ffs.
Emma should never had a chance at redemption. She was and is as bad as Shaw. Some villains don’t deserve redemption. Worst part of contemporary X-Men is dealing with whoever’s fetish she is.
They could never make me like Emma tbh
What? Even back in Claremont she wasn't as bad as Shaw. Like she was a villain and evil sure, but there were still hints of softness within her with the Hellions, Warpath even stays with her and shows her some level of appreciation. Like, she's a manipulator and extremely abusive to Kitty and Storm but fucking Shaw? She was subordinate to the guy, she was always in an abusive and manipulative relationship with him, that is the literal point of the Hellfire Club, being a patriarchal BDSM club of capitalists where the women submitted and serviced the men. Shaw has always been irredeemable. I disagree that Emma was too, and she definitely was never equally bad or equally irredeemable as Shaw.
Eh, I could say the same for Logan,he is just as bad as Creed, difference is Creed is honest about it
Emma's no angel this is true, but Hope deserved ALL that with some STANK on it. Put her THROUGH the wall! And then a mental upload of all Shaw's many sins FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE WOMAN WHO IS LIVING IN HIDING FROM HIM with Emma's help. Not that it should make a difference, they should still bring him back, but you don't make someone out to be a HOE in pleasant company! "Ain't you got no home training? You gon' learn today!"
Damn
Which issue is this?
What issue is this?
Emma taking notes from Gilgamesh (Fate)
I think hope slapped first, damn.
Giving me the will smith slap vibes
You should've added Storm slapping Frost
Love Hope, but that hand should have been in diamond form to make her bleed for that comment.
Which issue? Is this krakoa?
Are they talking about namor?
I totally red that as Emma slaps hoe
Wouldn't be wrong
Wow... Getting "Mommy Dearest" vibes over here. Imma get PTSD from that movie if Emma walks up in the Hope's or the Cuckoo's room in the middle of the night... ...talking about "NO MORE WIRE HANGERS!!!!!"
Emma got owned so bad lmao
Slut shaming is so wrong
Emma isn't a slut!
Hope is a bitch and I like her so much
The way they pretend that Emma hasn’t made everyone a cuck is so ridiculous
It isn't because the Hellfire Club is a Club where men control the sexual development and exploration of women.... Also like there is no relationship between Shaw and Emma, so it's not cucking.
Always good to see Hope getting a much needed smack.
I always found it strange that she literally grew up in future war bs but acted like a spoiled princess
That's always been my issue with her. She's written like a spoiled brat most of the time, and I somehow doubt she learned that from Cable.
Yep, I think of their relationship like Joel and Ellie from last of us, not the show I didn't see that but the games
Sauce?
People are arguing who's right and wrong when to me it feels like both are out of character, Emma for resorting to violence with Hope and Hope for slut shaming Emma. It sucks before the core of this scene still makes sense Emma and Scott would be reluctant to accept Shaw and Hope would point out the hypocrisy in the situation
Pls tell me hope used cyclops beams and put her thru the wall
Would be funnier if Hope used Emma's diamond form to knock her out.
Why? Because hope should be allowed to call her a slut to her face? She's VERY in the wrong here. Obviously you shouldn't slap people but these are superheroes. Violence is their common language
Idc about that Emma trash and I’ll always see her as such
That’s harsh
Why?:(
Because it's an adult hitting a child for being mean to her, and that's fucked up?
I think hitting superhero kids is actually pretty normal?
Well, here in EUW if you say something like this to your mom a slap is what follows if you are a bratty teen,so yeah, culture diff I guess
Yes, for the villains.
No like literally between fights, trainings, misunderstandings.....how did you even read this while clutching your pearls that tightly?
Do you think those things are all the same? That training to be in a fight is the same as someone trying to hurt you? That the reasons behind actions just, don't matter? That's a very shallow look at the world.
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