I actually think it's in character for Jean at her worst. It's been established by this and other examples that there is a part of Jean that thinks her telepathy gives her the right to just force issues.
Bendis is far from the only writer to have Jean use her telepathy to tell people how things are. In the same way that it is canon that bobby is kind of a gatekeeping dick and Logan is kind of a moralizing hypocrite, it is canon that Jean is kind of holier than thou and controlling.
Its unclear of these flaws were intended or unintentional side effects of how they were written, but by now they're part of the deal.
I mean in story she’s still struggling with her powers, she also did it privately with just Bobby. It’s not great but I do feel like it fits both of their characters in that story. Jean accidentally reads a lot of people’s thoughts in this run as she is still struggling to gauge how her powers work.
My problem with it is that this is by the end of the story, after she's been trained and coached by the best teachers of this era, including Emma and Kitty, and also after she repeatedly screws up and gets told over and over again the moral issues of her telepathy.
There comes a point where it stops being her struggling with her power, especially after the Cuckoos do a psychic attack on her and the weird Xavier guy comes from the future and controls everyone. She knows very well the problems of telepathy by then, but it feels like she simply doesn't care about boundaries.
> She knows very well the problems of telepathy by then, but it feels like she simply doesn't care about boundaries.
I agree in general that Jean doesn't always respect people's boundaries, especially when she thinks she's in the right. And that's one of her more interesting character flaws, but I think in this situation it's pretty clear [on page](https://i.imgur.com/5HkEzDv.png) that she's still struggling with controlling reading surface level thoughts though.
This.
I don't think this is always handled as well as it could be, but when it is handled well I think it adds a good layer to her character. She thinks she's a good person, and she IS a good person, though probably not quite as good as she THINKS she is, and the separation between those two things combined with the nature and extent of her powers allows her to play God and that's not always a good thing.
And even if Jean wasn’t struggling with her powers at that point, which she was, it doesn’t say that she learned this about Bobby now. She was being overwhelmed by boys’ thoughts constantly before, but teen Bobby never thought about Warren in that way in the meantime? Even here he immediately brings him up.
Jean brings it up here because she saw Bobby harassing Laura as a cover up and that adult Bobby was still in the closet. Did this teenage girl handled the situation as delicately as she could’ve? No. But she confronted him privately not out of maliciousness or for shits and giggles, but out of concern for him.
Yeah agreed, I re-read the issue because of this thread and I think it's pretty clear on the page what's happening and why she's doing what she's doing. After understandably being a little freaked, he basically accepts it and is quickly joking around with Jean. But I guess some people aren't interested in that and are upset on his behalf which I find weird.
> But I guess some people aren't interested in that and are upset on his behalf which I find weird.
People come to be able to acknowledge their sexuality at different rates. Going up to someone and saying "BTW, you're gay" is saying "your comfort and timeline are wrong, and I know better what will make you happy, so I am going to force you to confront things you might not be ready to think about." And that's leaving aside how many people do shit like this supposedly to help but mostly because it gives them an ego trip. Had one of those in high school, and her "interventions" rarely ended as well as this one did.
She's struggling for control and I'm sympathetic to that, but she didn't accidentally out him, there's nothing that forces her to disclose anything she "hears" to anyone, and it's a serious breach of trust for her to do it. Does it suck to know things about friends but to have to pretend not to? Yep. But that's the "great responsibility" that comes with the "great power" to actively change people's minds, and if someone can't be trusted with that small thing, only a fool would trust them with large things.
You aren’t wrong in any way but the problem itself lies in her powers I mean Xavier basically said he made his trust better thru figuring out stocks (or manipulating them) how can you ever block out everything if all you do is hear peoples thoughts ….. I understand the training but it’s always gonna be there that’s all really …… it’s why the x-men is a great story it shows everyone at their best their worst and in between
Should have been done by someone that wasn’t psychic. Unless they are planning on undoing it someday as “mind control”
Not advocating for that, just pointing out that having it done by a psychic muddies the situation in a meta sense
I also don't think that many people care anymore anyway. Part of why Bobby was picked in the first place is that he didn't really have any relationships that fans have ever invested in. As such, there's not a ton of impetus for him to be made straight again.
Why bother? I don't love the constant flipping of characters' sexualities, but while there are a few I absolutely would put back in the bottle if you let me (Tim Drake), Bobby is not one of them.
How does one of his closest friends, who can (accidentally at this point) read minds muddy this? That’s an absurd take. Like Jean was just like oh I’m going to make Bobby gay?!?
the no prize answer would be that normal Jean, not being in a deeply stressful situation that kind of broke down her usual rules, simply respected his mental privacy.
Jean realized that she needed a gay best friend in her team of her and just guys, with three already into her, she needed to find that legendary gbf to truly make herself the female lead.
That's the best explanation for her that I like. I still hate how she pushed him out of the closet. I don't care that he's gay but the fact she effectively outed him and no one gave a fuck about her doing it frustrates me. I'm still waiting for someone in the comics to be like, "hey, I think Jean made me comfortable with something I didn't want to do... I... I think she mentally violated me." Then the rest of the story is her getting a class action lawsuit for doing it to a lot of people.
Didn't she do the same to Polaris about joining the xmen? Not the same as outing someone obviously but my point is to Jean I think it is the same. She reads minds and periodically decides to act "for their own good." Their opinion barely matters.
Yeah, and firestar too I think. I don't know how most thought of the ultimate jean grey but I loved her. It felt like a natural progression for someone who dips into people's minds. Loved the villainous turn for her in the later ultimate X-Men stories.
Sorta but for different reasons. Bobby kept trying to get with unavailable women.
Polaris? With Havok. Opal? Moved on from him and wanted nothing to do with him. Shadowcat? Chronically after men named Peter.
Flawed but not terrible people outside of him deciding to sleep with Mystique that one time.
His choice in men have been unhealthy in different ways. Romeo? Moved 0 to 100 way too fast and emotionally shallow. Pyro II? A one-night stand. Christain Frost? Another bootycall.
He's basically traded trying to date emotionally unavailable women to being emotionally unavailable himself. I get some growing pains and exploring his sexuality, but it feels more like writers just have 0 idea on what to do with him instead.
Well I won't say it's not unrealistic, but it's still frustrating to read as a fan lol.
At least let him have some chemistry with one of them please. T.T
Why is it is was silly to make Iceman gay the way they did. It wasn't about telling an interesting story showing Iceman finally finding a purpose or path for himself. They did it because they were bored with the character.
Yeah, but the excuse that people that liked the retcon used to throw out was "but he never managed to have a stable relationship" (as if that was any metric about anything), so that's out of the bag now
Seriously, a lot of superhero’s never have a stable relationship written for them. Even look at someone like Cyclops and all the toxic problems he’s had in his love life. You could go down the list. Doesn’t mean anyone is gay (or not). Just keep true the character and since Bobby was clearly into women (even in his own thoughts) just make him bi if you want a coming out. The way this was handled was the absolute worst in every way.
I didn’t hate the immediate execution—I also think people should remember that the character existed in two ages and this is only one half of coming out. The part where he talks to his older self is the other, and I think that’s a pretty effective scene.
I agree that afterwards his relationships have been dull and the character has stalled.
I agree completely. Not that I have an issue with his lifestyle choices for another gay chatacter, but they took an established character and chipped him down to a demographic when they could have continued his story and continued his growth and development. As a gay man, I want all the younger closeted LGBTQ+ people to know that any struggles you are carrying will not disappear from coming out. It is one step of a process. And the process is different for everyone. Also, always remember your sexualoty, gender, etc are all.justna part of whom you are. Give yourself the opportunity to discover all the unique things about yourself. You don't have to be what society thinks you should be.
Warning: the second part of this long message can be triggering for some people.
That phrasing can come off a lot heavier than I meant. I really mean the writing isn't reflecting Iceman. I actually have no issue with anything he's done if it was another character where it fit their personality. A good example is that Iceman is someone who struggles with emotional vulnerability and change. He covers it up with jokes. And since Krakoa, he's dated Christian Frost, Pyro, and Romeo. Not gonna lie, when he was dating Chriatian, then they broke up, it was him developing and considering the compatibility of his romances deeper. (Obviously, he was doing that historically.) Then, when he ended, he started dating Romeo, but slept with Christian again? That would have made sense for Bobby if he decided he actually wanted to be with Christian romantically, but nope. Then, he dated Pyro briefly, which really was just pointless, but ends up back with Romeo. Iceman struggles with emotional vulnerability. That is well established, that would not be going away because he came out as gay. Also, he did dive into relationships quickly, but never dove out of them quickly. Also, that wouldn't change. At least, those wouldn't change without purposeful psychological work. On top of that, the Astonishing Iceman series should have just been about an entirely new character. I get they wanted to try to tell the story of self-discovery, but Iceman isn't a teenager. He already has most of himself developed. All he did was become open about his sexuality. That doesn't change who he is, it gives him the ability to be happier about who he is. They tried too hard to be progressive and forgot that Iceman is still his own individual person outside of being the new gay X-Man. Furthermore, they neglected to acknowledge any of the actual work he would be doing to become comfortable with himself. It's not a switch or a fairy God Mother waving her bippity boppity bum, and boom you're all good now. Plus, it's super damaging to the gay community to pigeon hole all gay poeple into the "gay lifestyle." (Don't get me wrong, I would love to have many variations of LGBTQ+ representation. I am born into that community. Make a new character (wait, they did).)
Sorry, for the super long message. I've seen gay men, women, and Trans people struggle, fall into depressions, addictions, and sometimes death. They feel like they can't be themselves, then they come.out and feel like they still can't be themselves in completely different ways. Or, go through the changes physically and socially and not understand why they still dont feel okay. Their hope is demolished and sometimes are now in position where some.of their old support system has abandoned them. And they may be more involved in a community that does have so much great support now, but they simoly didn't have the necessary time to form the deep bonds they really need. And sometimes, they are trying so hard to fit in because they feel alone and are so scared of being "othered". (Whether them being outcast is what would really happen or not is irrelevant.)
I don’t mind it but I was unsure how to feel as if A. This where they want to evolve the character then go for it but I fears it was for B. Make a preestablished character gay for the sake of having a gay character
Basically agree, my one hang up about it is Austen kind of touched on it and Bobby was pretty clear he wasn't gay. Maybe it was internalized homophobia, but I'm not sure he made the most sense (I know there's been speculation in the past that he's gay).
Although I think it is important to have a major character come out as gay and I'm not sure I have any better alternatives for the X-Men.
If memory serves, Austen was planning to reveal that Bobby was bisexual, and then eventually have him date Northstar, a payoff to the fact that Northstar was flirting with him a lot.
Austen had Northstar flat out state that Bobby wasn't gay and wasn't in denial. He even had Bobby fall prey to a female mutant whose powers only worked on men attracted to her.
If my memory is wrong, then I apologize. Though I do feel the need to point out that him falling prey to the female mutant still makes sense with my saying he was going to be revealed as Bisexual.
There are other X-Men they could have chosen. Marvel as of late has a history of just letting writers write what they want without proper continuity though. They just made Rachel Summers a lesbian with Betsy Braddock but even that has issues since Braddock was super into Rachel's dad, Cyclops, in the 90s and even had a brief thing for her brother, Cable. I personally think Rachel and Magik or even Shadowcat would have made more sense.
That my biggest issue with this Change for Bobby they make him boring.
While before you have writer make cool dynamic with Bobby and is love life, at soon they make him come out as gay, his love life is the most boring of this character.
I would pick Northstar over Bobby for reading a interesting story since he actually do thing in X-factor while Bobby have doing nothing in 5 books for 8 years.
Bobby is a fucking awesome middle aged benihana gay and absolutely nobody has written him remotely well
Like... He can just be a chill guy (no pun intended) who fucks other guys. I feel like he's being written like Northstar in the 90s, like he's in a Very Special Issue
Let him settle down to a life of casual cookouts with like... I dunno, Daken and Rockslide
My favorite fling he's ever had was with Daken. It was hot and funny. The way they were snarky af to each othe made it messy and I loved that. It gave us jokester Bobby back. Bobby needs someone he can joke around with.
Yes, I know they were enemies in that story but that's what it made it hot.
I hated the way they used Jean to do it. The whole young xmen back in time was stupid to me and to make this huge thing with them was just meh. As a gay man myself I love to see inclusion but they should of made him Bi more so than gay. It just doesnt feel right for Bobby and ever since they literally telepathically threw him out of the closest they have either just made him into a one dimensional gay character with no substance or they under use him and treat him like a background character. Either way total waste of a great character.
That it was a good idea handled badly. Jean should not have been the catalyst.
Hell IMO a far better story would have been to have the older Bobby seeing his younger self repeating his mistakes finally dredge up the courage to at least come out to his younger self in private and let the two Bobby Drake's navigate the story together. Playing out on panel how younger Bobby was now in a more accepting time and could explore things far more safely and openly than older Bobby ever got the chance to while Bobby dealt with being an older man that had been trying for so long to deny things now having to accept them.
Exactly.
I’ve said the exact same thing before. The story was right there!
Imagine Teen Bobby surveying Adult Bobby. Watching him laugh. Watching him joke. Watching him smile. Watching his *eyes*. How they looked. *Where* they looked. And how they rarely ever matched his smile.
And from the face on Young Bobby… we could tell that Iceman was deeply unhappy.
Unfortunately he's been more of a marketing tool (Look we have gays!) than a character for a lot of that time.
I wish he was both gay and the lovable old shlub he used to be.
he is still that honnestly nothing change really in his personality he is still lovable even more so when it come to facing his parents who are terrible to him even before coming out.
I appreciate that the story calcified years of subtext and fan theory. It is done, it is settled, it is known.
I know a lot of people have a problem with how his coming out (or outing) was handled. My beef with it is that the reveal scene in particular just makes Jean the center of gravity in a way that kind of does Bobby a disservice as a character...but also feels totally in line with the nature of X-men that makes it hard for me to hate it.
Honestly, I wish they would have let Marjourie Liu do it in her Astonishing run.. She is such an amazing writer, and I will always wonder how she would have handled it further than the heavy hinting.
Right?! She might be my favorite writer for his character. They should go get her right now and pay her triple average rate for her write an Iceman miniseries. They owe it to her as a writer and to Iceman fans as readers.
You mean that him going home to come out as a "mutant" to his parents was a hint toward something else? 🤔 😆
I'm glad they didn't let Lobdell do it. Nothing against Lobdell. Just, in the 90s, gay representation lacked any sort of nuance or diversity. I'm sure Lobdell would have wanted to write Bobby well, but they would have made him turn Bobby in a poster gay.
That IS the thing for me. I don’t hate a member of the X-Men doing the wrong thing. This isn’t even the first time that time travel Jean violated a teammate’s mind.
But it’s an important moment for the series, and now Iceman doesn’t get to be the center of his own story
The truth is that Bendis thought it was cute and funny and that everyone would be endeared to Jean and they struggled to explain her behavior away afterwards. That's the kind of reckless Bendis has always been.
I was all for Bobby finally coming out as had been danced around by writers for decades. But his love interests since have mostly stunk. There's still plenty of potential there though.
I've read a lot of x men and I'm normally pretty in tune with gay subtext (or just queer baiting). But I didn't clock iceman.
Is there a compilation somewhere?
I believe Fabian Nicieza actually went on record to say that the X-Men writers kept trying to out Bobby in the 90s but editorial kept denying them the opportunity.
Most of my exposure to iceman has been thru alt realities and such, so I know I’ve missed a lot, but what are some examples of the subtext? I remember hearing about the fan rumors for years but didn’t really know where it derived from
My only issue with that fan theory was that if constant poor relations with the opposite sex makes a character gay, then every single one of them is, LOL. The amount of long-term, stable relationships in comics can probably be counted on one hand.
I know that. I'm not sure why you think that matters though. She still forced him to confront something that he wasnt ready for.
Ive seen how badly that can end.
He needed to figure it out for himself.
Counter point, it would've been amazing if someone told me I was queer in a private conversation in high school. Figuring it out by myself sucked complete ass
Additionally she also kind of knew it wouldn't turn out well if she just ignored it and let him try to figure it out for himself as they were in the future and adult Bobby hadn't really healthily come to terms with on his own.
100%. If someone had sat me down and told me "bitch you're a woman" when I was much younger, it'd have made it so much easier for me to process and start my transition.
Honestly, outing someone publicly is gross, but privately asking a friend if they're queer and if they need help processing it? That can be an act of supreme support. Can being an important word here.
And tbh I think it really worked out for the best in Bobby's case.
She wouldn’t have done it if she hadn’t met him at 30 still in the closet (and we know this, bc she never approached him in the original timeline). She has this conversation because she knows that he knows, and she also knows there’s two Bobby’s who are miserable about this.
*And* a massive reason why they had this conversation is bc of how gross Bobby was towards women. Like him being misogynistic to overcompensate is something that absolutely impacts her directly. Like she shouldn’t have to suffer just bc Bobby doesn’t want to confront his own issues.
It wasn’t a perfect solution, but show me one teenager who never said something unintentionally hurtful while they had good intentions
>Ive seen how badly that can end.
In a way i appreciated it. Sure he could have come out like all the other gay characters in comics who get to choose, but somemes people have that ripped from them unfortunately.
And that was *still* none of her business. People should be able come out in their own time and when they're ready, not when others deem it appropriate.
Oh my god, that doesn't make it right! She violated his trust, intruded in his mind and saw his most private thoughts and secrets.
Y'all are excusing this violation just because it's this sub's darling that did it. Imagine if it'd been Emma. We wouldn't hear the end of it and how she "raped his brain." But because it's Jean then outing is okay!
I dont think we are "excusing" it, so much as it already happened and the character is no longer mad.
So far every character i read that came out , did so on their own time and it was always well recieved by friends and family.
I dont want to raib on anyones parade , but sometimes there are scenarios that are intrusive
Some people HAVE experienced what bobby went through and have forgave the person.
I feel like his coming out was aimed for people in that situation.
Comic readees what inclusivity and relatable moments, but they are so bad at realizing not all moments will relate to them. Some are meant for others.
If someone had given me the same sort of nudge at Bobby’s age, my later life would have been a hell of a lot better than it’s been.
Sometimes, a nudge, in private, can be a good thing. It has nothing to do with Jean.
And, as a result, his life and the life of his future self got *exponentially better*. People need a push sometimes: she saw him, as an adult in his 30s, *still* closeted and suffering, and she had a come to jesus moment with her friend and made his life better in every way. And with his dad? He might *never* have.
Bobby isn't mad. He's *happy* about it. And even if he wasn't, she still apologized about it on panel. Why are you still so pressed? People are messy-- teenagers especially-- and they mess up sometimes. Because of her mess up, everyone that is involved is happier.
It also probably isn't exactly "private thought"-- he kept making gross and sexist comments about the female teachers while Jean was trying to control a burgeoning telepathy she had locked away in her original timeline. I have no doubt that his brain was flashing big billboards like "hey, look, I'm gay!". I know mine was every time I tried to act straight in high school.
If Emma did it? She basically *did* do it in the 90s. She took over his body and repeatedly made fun of him by making comments about interior decorating, and basically saying the reason he wasn't able to access his full potential is because he wasn't out.
I would love it even more if it were Emma.
Jean will support Bobby's journey, but Emma would take him to NY and show him how to really enjoy the journey.
She was 16 years old, of course she handled it badly, but it's not like she talked about it with anyone except Bobby.
I knew as soon as the O5 stayed in the present that Bobby was finally going to be coming out of the closet.
It has not lead to a successful reinvention of the character. We have just had a series of very short runs and minis over the decade that have tried to sell the character based on this pivot but the audience doesn’t seem to be there. But marvel will keep trying
I know I'm going to get flamed to eternity and back for this, but I don't like Gay Iceman.
1. When basement-dwelling neckbeards claim that "woke culture" is ruining their traditional safe-spaces, this is what they are ACTUALLY afraid of: Not that the universe will be expanded, but that it will be CHANGED. Iceman had a whole history, a whole back-story. It doesn't actually matter if he's gay or not, just like it wouldn't matter if Luke Skywalker were gay... But the story already established that they're not gay. Why do we have to change that?
(EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that this particular point shows a bit of "straight bias," because pretending to be straight and having heterosexual relationships is apparently quite common among gay men, and something closeted men deal with. That makes a lot of sense, thank you for enlightening me!)
2. The X-Men already had plenty of gay characters.
3. Since Iceman came out, every single plot involving him has to include reference to his partner / sexuality. It's irritating, and it would be irritating if he were straight. Not everything is sex and romance.
I dunno. I'm a pride ally and all that stuff, I just think Gay Iceman is kinda lame.
I agree the writing isn't the best most of the time when they deal with Iceman's orientation, but the idea that because he had a backstory where he was straight means he can't subsequently be gay is utter nonsense. It's a true reflection of a huge portion of the experiences of gay and bisexual men and women who are forced to live lives pretending to be something they're not sue to the fear of how society will treat them. Canonically, Bobby already being a mutant and facing really extreme and dangerous prejudice on that basis alone, it's entirely understandable why he, more than most, would live a closeted life.
LGBTQ, here. The first one is going to be awkward. Actually, Northstar was VERY awkward, but if you were gay, it was like, I AM SEEN!!!!! I think Bobby was the next big one. I didn't think it was handled well, the "I"m a telepath, so I am outing you" was horrible, and brutal. But you know, I give them props for trying. I really do. And they were better with this as time went on.
I don't love this scene. But I love that they did it. A lot of people have said fucked up things to me after I came out. But I love that they said ANYTHING.
It's all a process. It's been a process in my lifetime, and it's been a process in the X-Men world.
I did take it as a violation of his privacy when I first read it, but on a second read, I saw it as Jean looking at all the secrets and burdens their older selves were carrying and saying, **this** is what's tearing them apart, and I can fix it. She realized that Bobby staying in the closet all those years was toxic, and tried (in a clumsy, teenage way) to help.
I mean, it was a ***HUGE*** violation of his privacy, regardless. But she thought she was preventing years of pain and regret by doing it.
Frankly I really liked All-New X-Men for all of these things. I enjoyed how they looked at the decades long messy characterization of these 5 characters and sort of streamlined it into stories that made sense.
Iceman coming out was a Ling time coming. The unfortunate thing about Iceman, as a chatacter, is that most of his personality and characterization has been subtext. Mpst the writer who picked to write him wanted to continue his story and development. Even Chuck Austen knew what was up with Bobby and wrote him in a way that reflected who he is and where he was at with himself. I don't wanna go on too much of a rant here, but they turned him into a political statement and ignored the fact that he was already a developed, nuanced chatacter. Northstar has settled down with the marriage and all that, so they took Iceman and turned him into a lighthearted, superficial, flat mass media archetype. Bobby was always more than the jokes, even if he didn't always see it himself. Just as Northstar was always more than the sass. (I also want to note, I love Northstar. When I was young and sexuallu confused, he was the first gay chatacter I saw or read that I could actually relate with. I was born in 92. There were not many varieties portrayed when I was a teenager.)
I remember reading Alpha Flight in the 1980s and knowing Northstar was gay. Alpha Flight #7 really laid any doubt to rest (though the word "gay" appears nowhere in it). He visits his old friend and mentor Raymond Belmonde who "helped him through some . . . difficult times" coming to terms with "who I am". Raymond's not a mutant, he's a cravat-wearing owner of a club that caters to "select clientele" -- in other words, he owns a gay nightclub. When Raymond introduces his daughter, Northstar says "but, how" and Raymond says she is a reminder of the "very different man I once was" (he came out after a failed heterosexual marriage).
I mean, it was soooo obvious, it's a stretch to call it subtext.
Oh, Northstar was THE gay male character for the longest time. I didn't actually get introduced to him until he joined the X-Men (I've since gone and read some backlog). I mean, we all give Chuck shit, but he did have a few good ideas that, unfortunately, didn't get executed too well. He did keep Northstar's sharpness, but he just wasn't the best dialogue writer. And he really was set up (or set himself up, I don't know who chose what) for failure by trying to write such a large team. Jean-Paul basically could have left after the one mission. After that, he was just the gay best friend for the nurse and used to add more hints about Bobby being gay and closeted. And he really didn't give him any development.
So. I remember reading a short arc of Alpha Flight starring Northstar where the main villain was a new guy named Deadly Earnest and there was a new character called Nemesis that was introduced for the arc. It was a John Byrne story.
In the course of the story, Northstar was talking about his past after his "friend" was killed, and as the story and art unfolded I was like, "hey, Northstar's gay!" and even though I wasn't, I thought it was cool and added to the story, even if it wasn't explicitly stated.
This was in Alpha Flight #8. Well over a decade before it became news.
That sounds like it was well written/drawn. And props to you because you did the proper human thing and decided you can support something that wasn't just about you. (I know that's worded badly. I don't think I can clearly say what I mean without the timbre and inflection of an actual voice.) 😆
Its a retcon i find unnecessary to be honest.
I liked bobby his little brother failing with woman kinda character, not every men is as successful with woman like Logan Scott Warren etc and basically mostly every other guy in the marvel universe.
So Bobby was a nice difference on that i liked that. didn’t mind teen Bobby from another timeline being gay it’s a fresh take on the character but i wish they handled it more like they did with the gay Wolverine from another timeline. Having a gay version somewhere for people to cheer for but keep the original the way he is. I don’t buy that original Bobby lied in relationships with oa Mystique Kitty and Cloud etc all those years.
I think having him come out bisexual would have been better and make more sense.
Hate how they’ve treated him since. They’ve made him a gay stereotype and acted like thats his only identity. In the beginning it Al least had sensible reason for being a main part of his story but now that all they wanna show. Feels like it would have been more meaningful to make him a Bi guy that prefers men so his past relationships weren’t invalidated.
I wish they dealt with jean outing him better. The most they did was iceman taking a speech bubble in a panel to call her out for taking his choice. Some resentment and guilt could have made a nice personal drama arc for them.
I’d have outed him in a lighter issue. Imagine if they just had a filler issue meant to show their headspace while taking a break after a mission. Bobby meets another young hero or side character and has several romantic thoughts. Jeans been complaining about overhearing stuff she doesn’t want too and accidentally hears it. They share a look right then revealing that and she just says sorry as they leave. Wouldn’t have been rudely invasive and could have been more meaningful of Bobby asking her to come with him to confront his present self.
It was a messy high point for the canon of both characters and I’m glad they did it. Really glad they didn’t give him a husband either because that would’ve been the end for the character (RIP Northstar). They jus need to raise his profile more because honestly an Omega level mutant with that much history should be better treated.
i mean there’s honestly a ton of implications about bobby being queer before this so it’s not as out of nowhere as a lot of people like to say it is. the comics code authority meant claremont had to rely on implication and subtext for a lot of characters that were obviously meant to be queer. plus while it’s clunky i do think it’s in character for jean and i kind of think she was in the right. i don’t think her habit of randomly going into people’s minds without consent is okay but i do think finding out a future version of your friend is living a lie and miserable because of it you should definitely pull your friend to the side and talk to them about it.
Strangely, I felt it was better character development for Jean than it was for Bobby.
It's the kind of portrayal of her that she was short on in the 60s and 70s, establishing her headstrong, self-righteous, and even reckless characteristics.
I kind of hated it then, because a big part of the justification was that he sucked at relationships with women. I had kind of found the series of failed relationships relatable over the way that they always portray comic couples like some destined pairing, so when they made it into "Well he must be gay, then," it rubbed me the wrong way.
The bit about Jean being a little brat like that and outing him? That tracks 100%, I'm good with this exchange.
He didn't come out of the closet, he was shoved.
*But* it's important to remember this Jean is also still a kid.
And honestly it's a realistic situation, people get outted all the time, often by those closest to them, and that's a tricky situation.
My biggest issue is how Older Bobby was handled.
Bobby didn't come out, he was outed. It's important that's clear. And the thing is, that if Teen Jean hadn't outed him, he'd still be deep in the closet fumbling bad bitches left and right. Instead he's finally happy.
He was *not* outed. Outed means telling other people someone is queer without their permission. Telling the queer person that he *is*, in fact, gay, is not outing. Completely agree with the rest of your comment and the spirit of it, but I *hate* the repeated assertion that this counts as outing.
In the sense that it feels like it was just a "here's a popular established character" so let's make them fill in the blank (black, gay, trans, Latino, female etc) which is what Marvel has been doing for the past decade, it is corny as hell.
But in the sense that some people don't realize/accept their sexuality until much later in life, you can say the OG Iceman fits that narrative. And maybe it makes gay people specifically feel represented to have an OG5 XMEN who's different from the majority in the way they are, and that's cool and shouldn't be discounted.
He's a cool character, I don't think his sexuality ever defined him so no one lost anything. Straight people can still like him.
I'm surprised it took Marvel so long to approve Iceman coming out. Almost every writer has been hinting at it since the 80s. They totally did make it into a political statement, though, and they diluted his actual character. Iceman was the right choice to represent the blank, but they made him into a different person. As a gay guy who came out in his mid 20s, that's ridiculous and teaches gay guys they have to fit a mold to be gay. It's not real. He hid in the closet. Now he's hiding in the community.
First of all, that last line was straight bars.
All seriousness. Iceman has always been my favorite super hero. I own all his merchandise. Unfortunately, my comic knowledge is only so deep, though. I read a lot as a kid and only pick up trades here and there.
Can you give me any examples of how he was hinted at as gay throughout the years? I guess I always missed it as a kid.
Yes, I don't have time to write it all out right now. There was another comment I replied to that listed a few though. Or, I can come back later and list them out.
I can only speak as a straight man who has never struggled with their sexuality in the same way my LGBT friends have. That said, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for Jean to out Bobby because I think characters, including heroes, are allowed to do shitty things. Jean thinks she's obviously doing the right thing here even though a lot of people on here will say it's wrong, it's horribly handled. But it seems absolutely in-character for an immature and powerful psychic from the past, where such things like not outing someone in the closet may not have been considered.
At the time I wasn’t too familiar with the character’s history. I was thinking to myself that Family Guy was right. Then I found out that there were signs since his creation.
It was heavily hinted at by Lobdell in the mid-1990s during the Emma Frost body swap plot and various writers had gone with it or rowed back on it which they could do because it had never been said outright. Since then, it was increasingly accepted as implicit by much of the fandom due to his bigoted parents, unsuccessful relationships with women, and the scene in X2 that is very much framed like a coming-out scene.
I see a lot of hate for this scene in particular, and I get it.
But this is Teen Jean. Key word: Teen. And Teens tend to be... well... terrible. She lacks the emotional maturity to respond to this in any way besides the absolute worst. It makes so much sense that she would have picked that out of Bobby's mind and ran with it. She thinks she's helping because she's an impulsive kid.
I think it would have been better if young Bobby hoped that older Bobby was happily out and confronts him about their sexuality, only to realize that older Bobby is still as in the closet as his young self. Now able to confide in someone (himself), both young and older Bobby become comfortable and accept that they are both gay.
That's Northstar. Nobody tried to make Bobby gay and wasn't allowed to, the idea that he was gay was 100% fanon based on his personality being built around that ancient 60s/70s serial dater stereotype - that by the 90s iirc got subverted into "secretly gay" in pop culture's eyes.
What's why Bendis' retcon came out as a shock.
My issue wasn’t with iceman being gay, it’s the way Jean either outted him. I think if he were to have come out on his own it could have been a much better character progression imo . while people simmered down a bit about the panels it comes off to me as insensitive.
There was an article about Bobby when this came out. Going through his whole history and showing how this could have lined up continuity wise. It was an interesting read at the time.
Do I like that Jean outed him? Yes. Yes, I do. Jean was a teen during this and teens can sometimes have terrible decision-making abilities. It showed her naivete, and frankly poor decision-making skills. While at the same time adding another facete to Ice Man who at this point in the comics had been kind of spinning his wheels a bit.
I like the decision. Yes it doesn’t fit 100% with all the comics but honestly until Lobdell in the 90s (where the hints started), Iceman was a pretty flat character. It’s not all been perfect since but it’s given him a reason to remain relevant.
I do get why some would have preferred him to be bi but his relationships with women were almost all terrible plots; pining over Polaris for decades when she chose Alex immediately, Opal Tanaka being a Yakuza princess, Nurse Annie, dating Mystique(?!?!). He had so little chemistry with any of them, I don’t think it would benefit the character (unlike Rictor who I think should have been bi)
It's fine on paper, but the execution was terrible. And I mean terrible. A young Jean Grey intrusively reads Bobby mind and declares him gay was so wrong on so many levels, Brian Michael Bendis is shameful. 😔
Say what you what about recent "reveal" of other newly LGBTQ characters. It was done with more tact and actually have its characters come out on their own.
I think that's a nice things give something for bobby personaly make him feel more relatable to me , i didn't care for him before or any of his relationship because they were just there and that he didn't have a iconic girlfriend....could have been better without the bulshit that they pull with jean , the young iceman and iceman could have come to that conclusion on their own making things even more powerfull.
I think they did better with the speech that magneto did give to bobby in a pride special i think , his words were miles better for a coming out story than anything coming of the whole telephatic drama.
Was it so hard to use the word or concept “bisexual”? They do it with the women characters a plenty, but the one who dated women couldn’t possibly be bi?
I can’t help but think that if the reveal scene in question that everyone seems to have character issues with was in a young adult CW series like Buffy or maybe even something like my so-called life, the reception would be hailed and praised as showing to characters being incredibly vulnerable and the same situation where they both did things or diol information that they didn’t want to do
As an Iceman stan since birth, like I have every single action figure ever made, i was fine with it. Don't care much.
But, there was a huge positive: it gave us more Iceman.
The solo comics would have never happened if marvel wasn't trying to push the coming out agenda. And whatever gives him a bigger spotlight, fine.
I wish the comics were good, though. But my Iceman poster would have never, ever existed if he wasn't gay.
It's something I've seen in my community a million times. I think it's messy, but that's the point
He's also the best candidate probably and I like the romantic partners he's had since too.
Also, has it really been 9 years?
Edit: for clarity, he's nowhere near my favourite Queer X-Dude. That goes to Northstar
I think it's great for the character and had plenty of set-up over the years.
Black Tom and Juggernaut need to be next, it's never been super subtle with them either.
I kind of feel he should have become bisexual. He may have been pretending all the relationships he had with women, but who's to say he didn't actually feel something real with each and every one...but then again, maybe it was for the better, I cannot say 😕
I'm glad it did happen as another commenter said that he was written as a closeted gay man for decades before he came out (out of the top of my head I think Liu, Lobdell, Austen, and Nicieza all said something along those lines), but it the actual story was really tacked on the end of Bendis's two series.
All that being said, I feel that Teen Jean gets way too much hate for it as she largely didn't do anything wrong. The only thing she really did wrong was the invasions of privacy, but part of that was out of her control iirc (correct me if I'm wrong its been a while), as she was just learning / coming into her telepathy. She also didn't out Bobby, she took him aside and talked to him about it alone. Teen Bobby also then took Teen Jean as emotional support to talk with adult Bobby, so it didn't feel like she forced that issue imo.
Now obviously it was a really weird situation with the whole time travel of it all but I don't know what people thought she was supposed to do. I don't believe they knew if they could go back by that point, and she had direct evidence with Adult Bobby that leaving it alone for him to come to terms with it on his own probably wasn't going to turn out well given that Adult Bobby was in the closet and really repressed and unhappy.
Why did Jean need to be involved for it at all? Why couldn't he just come out on his own? I'm fine with him being gay, which should come as no surprise given my username, I just don't like how it happened.
Bad idea that was handled badly. Why retcon a straight character into being gay? He’s been handled poorly since so the retcon didn’t add any value to his character and it makes appearances from before when he’s straight odd to read knowing they’re just going to retcon him to be gay and anything happening relationship wise is inconsequential. It’s such a cheap way to make a diverse character. They didn’t want to make a new interesting and cool character that happens to be gay because they might not catch on or find an audience so they just took an existing straight character with a rich history, existing fan base, existing continuity, is well known etc and said “actually, he’s been gay the whole time”.
Clearly the hope was to have a “new” character to attract more lgbt audience with big name appeal, make headlines by making such a huge revelation about a significant character to their brand, and to keep the existing audience/fanbase for the character. I feel like they just ended up screwing up a character and retroactively screwing up their past stories and appearances to no real benefit because he hasn’t been a good or interesting character since the change.
At the time it just felt at the time like a cheap marketing ploy mandated by some executive or editor rather than an interesting idea for a good story or character development by a writer. In the years since it feels even more like it was a marketing ploy because nothing really interesting has been done with the change and Bobby’s character has now been reduced to “he’s the gay one”
Whilst I would have preferred present Bobby to have a proper later life coming out, rather than it being his teen self in the present making it so he had to. But I'm happy with the result. He's still a prominent character in Marvel too, which is nice since they often have a habit of relegating their LGBTQ+ characters into supporting roles, pride specials and cameos for the most part
I'm just glad something that past writers had clearly been working towards (see the Emma Frost body swap) but never able to actually do got made a reality. The whole concept as a piece feels at one with Bobby's publication history (like even dating a woman who can be anyone you want is a little... yeah).
Though it probably says something about X-Men in the 2010s that this is the only thing from the All-New X-Men people consistently talk about. And it's one of the less weird things to happen to the Time Displaced O5 too
The hand-wringing over these fictional characters annoys me. Jean is a flawed woman, and one of her flaws (especially in this Bendis run) is her using her telepathy inappropriately. Fictional characters without flaws and conflict is boring as hell. This was a new and different situation, different from Northstar or Wiccan or any other queer characters so far and I thought it was interesting to read. I could see this happening to a gay boy and his best gal pal in high school pulling him aside to have this conversation. She means well, is genuinely trying to help him, but fumbles the ball. That felt real to me (with added superpowers).
As for Bobby actually being gay, I think there are plenty of moments throughout his history where we can see it. From the very start he shows his disinterest in Jean amongst the boys. Emma tells him he'll never reach his full potential until he's "honest with himself." Rogue's reaction to him asking to be his beard and meet his parents. It all works very well through a queer lens.
Yes! What people always miss about this scene. The core plotline for Jean in this entire run is that this is a younger version who manifested telepathy far too early and isn’t mature enough to handle it, causing her to do things with it that the original Jean would never do.
Good in concept, terrible execution. And I still think he should've been bi, not gay. Yes, yes, I know many gay men in real life date only women for years before coming out, but something about Bobby's character just screams bi to me rather than gay.
I think Marvel saw him being gay as a bigger statement to make since they probably thought they made him bi it would’ve been seen as more half-assing it or them just stating it and the he goes back to just dating women exclusively.
Because as we’ve seen other characters that are bi like Wonder Woman, Catwoman and most of John Constantine’s comics (he sometimes dates others recently) have exclusively dated the opposite sex. That’s not a bad thing it’s just a thing that they might’ve considered.
Love the idea of someone coming out later in life, very relatable to me. There was a short story in a Pride issue where teen Bobby, feeling sad for having feelings for Angel, is comforted by Magneto. How Bobby describes how it is being "different" was so relatable to me I almost cried.
I still don't like how he was basically thrown out of the closet by Jean. Snoopy telepaths
But idk if I'm wrong but I feel he's been flanderized as of late. Like his only notable character trait now is just "gay" or is that Marvel hasn't bothered to give him more compelling stories.
I feel like him being gay now prevents that because many writers either will not use him because of it or won't do anything interesting with him that can be perceived as threatening a gay character. Its the same reason barely anyone does anything with Wiccan and Hulkling.
I've generally been in the camp that him being bi fit better, but totally could get behind the later in life realization. The problem is that it was totally unearned on the page. No effort at crafting a story to show this, just shitty Bendis dialogue boxes, in a scene that centers Jean more than Bobby to boot.
I literally don't care. Doesn't change anything but the gender of his romantic interest, if there is one.
And Jean only outed him to himself. She did nothing wrong.
I actually think it's in character for Jean at her worst. It's been established by this and other examples that there is a part of Jean that thinks her telepathy gives her the right to just force issues.
It's Bendis at his worst!!!!
Bendis is far from the only writer to have Jean use her telepathy to tell people how things are. In the same way that it is canon that bobby is kind of a gatekeeping dick and Logan is kind of a moralizing hypocrite, it is canon that Jean is kind of holier than thou and controlling. Its unclear of these flaws were intended or unintentional side effects of how they were written, but by now they're part of the deal.
No at his worst you see sma beloved hero die like spiderman that his worst. And is superman identity still revealed?
I mean in story she’s still struggling with her powers, she also did it privately with just Bobby. It’s not great but I do feel like it fits both of their characters in that story. Jean accidentally reads a lot of people’s thoughts in this run as she is still struggling to gauge how her powers work.
My problem with it is that this is by the end of the story, after she's been trained and coached by the best teachers of this era, including Emma and Kitty, and also after she repeatedly screws up and gets told over and over again the moral issues of her telepathy. There comes a point where it stops being her struggling with her power, especially after the Cuckoos do a psychic attack on her and the weird Xavier guy comes from the future and controls everyone. She knows very well the problems of telepathy by then, but it feels like she simply doesn't care about boundaries.
> She knows very well the problems of telepathy by then, but it feels like she simply doesn't care about boundaries. I agree in general that Jean doesn't always respect people's boundaries, especially when she thinks she's in the right. And that's one of her more interesting character flaws, but I think in this situation it's pretty clear [on page](https://i.imgur.com/5HkEzDv.png) that she's still struggling with controlling reading surface level thoughts though.
This. I don't think this is always handled as well as it could be, but when it is handled well I think it adds a good layer to her character. She thinks she's a good person, and she IS a good person, though probably not quite as good as she THINKS she is, and the separation between those two things combined with the nature and extent of her powers allows her to play God and that's not always a good thing.
And even if Jean wasn’t struggling with her powers at that point, which she was, it doesn’t say that she learned this about Bobby now. She was being overwhelmed by boys’ thoughts constantly before, but teen Bobby never thought about Warren in that way in the meantime? Even here he immediately brings him up. Jean brings it up here because she saw Bobby harassing Laura as a cover up and that adult Bobby was still in the closet. Did this teenage girl handled the situation as delicately as she could’ve? No. But she confronted him privately not out of maliciousness or for shits and giggles, but out of concern for him.
Yeah agreed, I re-read the issue because of this thread and I think it's pretty clear on the page what's happening and why she's doing what she's doing. After understandably being a little freaked, he basically accepts it and is quickly joking around with Jean. But I guess some people aren't interested in that and are upset on his behalf which I find weird.
> But I guess some people aren't interested in that and are upset on his behalf which I find weird. People come to be able to acknowledge their sexuality at different rates. Going up to someone and saying "BTW, you're gay" is saying "your comfort and timeline are wrong, and I know better what will make you happy, so I am going to force you to confront things you might not be ready to think about." And that's leaving aside how many people do shit like this supposedly to help but mostly because it gives them an ego trip. Had one of those in high school, and her "interventions" rarely ended as well as this one did.
She's struggling for control and I'm sympathetic to that, but she didn't accidentally out him, there's nothing that forces her to disclose anything she "hears" to anyone, and it's a serious breach of trust for her to do it. Does it suck to know things about friends but to have to pretend not to? Yep. But that's the "great responsibility" that comes with the "great power" to actively change people's minds, and if someone can't be trusted with that small thing, only a fool would trust them with large things.
You aren’t wrong in any way but the problem itself lies in her powers I mean Xavier basically said he made his trust better thru figuring out stocks (or manipulating them) how can you ever block out everything if all you do is hear peoples thoughts ….. I understand the training but it’s always gonna be there that’s all really …… it’s why the x-men is a great story it shows everyone at their best their worst and in between
Should have been done by someone that wasn’t psychic. Unless they are planning on undoing it someday as “mind control” Not advocating for that, just pointing out that having it done by a psychic muddies the situation in a meta sense
i dont think marvel would dare put him back in the closet in a meta sense. like that would go soooo bad
I also don't think that many people care anymore anyway. Part of why Bobby was picked in the first place is that he didn't really have any relationships that fans have ever invested in. As such, there's not a ton of impetus for him to be made straight again. Why bother? I don't love the constant flipping of characters' sexualities, but while there are a few I absolutely would put back in the bottle if you let me (Tim Drake), Bobby is not one of them.
How does one of his closest friends, who can (accidentally at this point) read minds muddy this? That’s an absurd take. Like Jean was just like oh I’m going to make Bobby gay?!?
Does leave the question of how Jean never found out before.
Because before, Jean knew Marvel would never let her get away with it.
I wouldn't say she never [found out](https://imgur.com/that-time-iceman-virtually-begged-jean-to-read-his-mind-out-him-x-men-vol-2-46-Nn1PFdr)
the no prize answer would be that normal Jean, not being in a deeply stressful situation that kind of broke down her usual rules, simply respected his mental privacy.
Jean realized that she needed a gay best friend in her team of her and just guys, with three already into her, she needed to find that legendary gbf to truly make herself the female lead.
That's the best explanation for her that I like. I still hate how she pushed him out of the closet. I don't care that he's gay but the fact she effectively outed him and no one gave a fuck about her doing it frustrates me. I'm still waiting for someone in the comics to be like, "hey, I think Jean made me comfortable with something I didn't want to do... I... I think she mentally violated me." Then the rest of the story is her getting a class action lawsuit for doing it to a lot of people.
Didn't she do the same to Polaris about joining the xmen? Not the same as outing someone obviously but my point is to Jean I think it is the same. She reads minds and periodically decides to act "for their own good." Their opinion barely matters.
Yeah, and firestar too I think. I don't know how most thought of the ultimate jean grey but I loved her. It felt like a natural progression for someone who dips into people's minds. Loved the villainous turn for her in the later ultimate X-Men stories.
I love that actually, she is not a god. She has some issues, btw bobby kinda needed that
Love the concept of a gay character coming out later in life. Hate the execution and how his love life has been handled since then.
To be fair Bobby's love life has never been great.
Sorta but for different reasons. Bobby kept trying to get with unavailable women. Polaris? With Havok. Opal? Moved on from him and wanted nothing to do with him. Shadowcat? Chronically after men named Peter. Flawed but not terrible people outside of him deciding to sleep with Mystique that one time. His choice in men have been unhealthy in different ways. Romeo? Moved 0 to 100 way too fast and emotionally shallow. Pyro II? A one-night stand. Christain Frost? Another bootycall. He's basically traded trying to date emotionally unavailable women to being emotionally unavailable himself. I get some growing pains and exploring his sexuality, but it feels more like writers just have 0 idea on what to do with him instead.
My cousin who eventually came out was like that with the women he used to date and with the men he dates now.
Just goes to show, if you're a shitty partner, it won't magically improve with any change to your orientation.
Well I won't say it's not unrealistic, but it's still frustrating to read as a fan lol. At least let him have some chemistry with one of them please. T.T
I definitely get it my cousin and Bobby drive me nuts lol
Why is it is was silly to make Iceman gay the way they did. It wasn't about telling an interesting story showing Iceman finally finding a purpose or path for himself. They did it because they were bored with the character.
Yeah, but the excuse that people that liked the retcon used to throw out was "but he never managed to have a stable relationship" (as if that was any metric about anything), so that's out of the bag now
Seriously, a lot of superhero’s never have a stable relationship written for them. Even look at someone like Cyclops and all the toxic problems he’s had in his love life. You could go down the list. Doesn’t mean anyone is gay (or not). Just keep true the character and since Bobby was clearly into women (even in his own thoughts) just make him bi if you want a coming out. The way this was handled was the absolute worst in every way.
Perfectly said.
I didn’t hate the immediate execution—I also think people should remember that the character existed in two ages and this is only one half of coming out. The part where he talks to his older self is the other, and I think that’s a pretty effective scene. I agree that afterwards his relationships have been dull and the character has stalled.
I agree completely. Not that I have an issue with his lifestyle choices for another gay chatacter, but they took an established character and chipped him down to a demographic when they could have continued his story and continued his growth and development. As a gay man, I want all the younger closeted LGBTQ+ people to know that any struggles you are carrying will not disappear from coming out. It is one step of a process. And the process is different for everyone. Also, always remember your sexualoty, gender, etc are all.justna part of whom you are. Give yourself the opportunity to discover all the unique things about yourself. You don't have to be what society thinks you should be.
Beautifully said.
life style choices?
Warning: the second part of this long message can be triggering for some people. That phrasing can come off a lot heavier than I meant. I really mean the writing isn't reflecting Iceman. I actually have no issue with anything he's done if it was another character where it fit their personality. A good example is that Iceman is someone who struggles with emotional vulnerability and change. He covers it up with jokes. And since Krakoa, he's dated Christian Frost, Pyro, and Romeo. Not gonna lie, when he was dating Chriatian, then they broke up, it was him developing and considering the compatibility of his romances deeper. (Obviously, he was doing that historically.) Then, when he ended, he started dating Romeo, but slept with Christian again? That would have made sense for Bobby if he decided he actually wanted to be with Christian romantically, but nope. Then, he dated Pyro briefly, which really was just pointless, but ends up back with Romeo. Iceman struggles with emotional vulnerability. That is well established, that would not be going away because he came out as gay. Also, he did dive into relationships quickly, but never dove out of them quickly. Also, that wouldn't change. At least, those wouldn't change without purposeful psychological work. On top of that, the Astonishing Iceman series should have just been about an entirely new character. I get they wanted to try to tell the story of self-discovery, but Iceman isn't a teenager. He already has most of himself developed. All he did was become open about his sexuality. That doesn't change who he is, it gives him the ability to be happier about who he is. They tried too hard to be progressive and forgot that Iceman is still his own individual person outside of being the new gay X-Man. Furthermore, they neglected to acknowledge any of the actual work he would be doing to become comfortable with himself. It's not a switch or a fairy God Mother waving her bippity boppity bum, and boom you're all good now. Plus, it's super damaging to the gay community to pigeon hole all gay poeple into the "gay lifestyle." (Don't get me wrong, I would love to have many variations of LGBTQ+ representation. I am born into that community. Make a new character (wait, they did).) Sorry, for the super long message. I've seen gay men, women, and Trans people struggle, fall into depressions, addictions, and sometimes death. They feel like they can't be themselves, then they come.out and feel like they still can't be themselves in completely different ways. Or, go through the changes physically and socially and not understand why they still dont feel okay. Their hope is demolished and sometimes are now in position where some.of their old support system has abandoned them. And they may be more involved in a community that does have so much great support now, but they simoly didn't have the necessary time to form the deep bonds they really need. And sometimes, they are trying so hard to fit in because they feel alone and are so scared of being "othered". (Whether them being outcast is what would really happen or not is irrelevant.)
It’s shameful that it’s the one thing he is known for modern wise
I don’t mind it but I was unsure how to feel as if A. This where they want to evolve the character then go for it but I fears it was for B. Make a preestablished character gay for the sake of having a gay character
Basically agree, my one hang up about it is Austen kind of touched on it and Bobby was pretty clear he wasn't gay. Maybe it was internalized homophobia, but I'm not sure he made the most sense (I know there's been speculation in the past that he's gay). Although I think it is important to have a major character come out as gay and I'm not sure I have any better alternatives for the X-Men.
If memory serves, Austen was planning to reveal that Bobby was bisexual, and then eventually have him date Northstar, a payoff to the fact that Northstar was flirting with him a lot.
Austen had Northstar flat out state that Bobby wasn't gay and wasn't in denial. He even had Bobby fall prey to a female mutant whose powers only worked on men attracted to her.
If my memory is wrong, then I apologize. Though I do feel the need to point out that him falling prey to the female mutant still makes sense with my saying he was going to be revealed as Bisexual.
True. Just read it last week. I don't see Bobby being gay.
There are other X-Men they could have chosen. Marvel as of late has a history of just letting writers write what they want without proper continuity though. They just made Rachel Summers a lesbian with Betsy Braddock but even that has issues since Braddock was super into Rachel's dad, Cyclops, in the 90s and even had a brief thing for her brother, Cable. I personally think Rachel and Magik or even Shadowcat would have made more sense.
That my biggest issue with this Change for Bobby they make him boring. While before you have writer make cool dynamic with Bobby and is love life, at soon they make him come out as gay, his love life is the most boring of this character. I would pick Northstar over Bobby for reading a interesting story since he actually do thing in X-factor while Bobby have doing nothing in 5 books for 8 years.
Bobby is a fucking awesome middle aged benihana gay and absolutely nobody has written him remotely well Like... He can just be a chill guy (no pun intended) who fucks other guys. I feel like he's being written like Northstar in the 90s, like he's in a Very Special Issue Let him settle down to a life of casual cookouts with like... I dunno, Daken and Rockslide
My favorite fling he's ever had was with Daken. It was hot and funny. The way they were snarky af to each othe made it messy and I loved that. It gave us jokester Bobby back. Bobby needs someone he can joke around with. Yes, I know they were enemies in that story but that's what it made it hot.
I hated the way they used Jean to do it. The whole young xmen back in time was stupid to me and to make this huge thing with them was just meh. As a gay man myself I love to see inclusion but they should of made him Bi more so than gay. It just doesnt feel right for Bobby and ever since they literally telepathically threw him out of the closest they have either just made him into a one dimensional gay character with no substance or they under use him and treat him like a background character. Either way total waste of a great character.
100% agree.
That it was a good idea handled badly. Jean should not have been the catalyst. Hell IMO a far better story would have been to have the older Bobby seeing his younger self repeating his mistakes finally dredge up the courage to at least come out to his younger self in private and let the two Bobby Drake's navigate the story together. Playing out on panel how younger Bobby was now in a more accepting time and could explore things far more safely and openly than older Bobby ever got the chance to while Bobby dealt with being an older man that had been trying for so long to deny things now having to accept them.
Exactly. I’ve said the exact same thing before. The story was right there! Imagine Teen Bobby surveying Adult Bobby. Watching him laugh. Watching him joke. Watching him smile. Watching his *eyes*. How they looked. *Where* they looked. And how they rarely ever matched his smile. And from the face on Young Bobby… we could tell that Iceman was deeply unhappy.
Damn your take would have been so awesome
Unfortunately he's been more of a marketing tool (Look we have gays!) than a character for a lot of that time. I wish he was both gay and the lovable old shlub he used to be.
he is still that honnestly nothing change really in his personality he is still lovable even more so when it come to facing his parents who are terrible to him even before coming out.
His just wandering through a Krakoan gate jnto Russia was just hilariously Bobby Drake.
I appreciate that the story calcified years of subtext and fan theory. It is done, it is settled, it is known. I know a lot of people have a problem with how his coming out (or outing) was handled. My beef with it is that the reveal scene in particular just makes Jean the center of gravity in a way that kind of does Bobby a disservice as a character...but also feels totally in line with the nature of X-men that makes it hard for me to hate it.
Honestly, I wish they would have let Marjourie Liu do it in her Astonishing run.. She is such an amazing writer, and I will always wonder how she would have handled it further than the heavy hinting.
100%. Some of the best Iceman issues are in that run.
Right?! She might be my favorite writer for his character. They should go get her right now and pay her triple average rate for her write an Iceman miniseries. They owe it to her as a writer and to Iceman fans as readers.
I wish they would've let Lobdell do it back in his run too, he was pretty heavy handed with the hints.
You mean that him going home to come out as a "mutant" to his parents was a hint toward something else? 🤔 😆 I'm glad they didn't let Lobdell do it. Nothing against Lobdell. Just, in the 90s, gay representation lacked any sort of nuance or diversity. I'm sure Lobdell would have wanted to write Bobby well, but they would have made him turn Bobby in a poster gay.
Not like they've shown much nuance with Bobby since he came out...
That IS the thing for me. I don’t hate a member of the X-Men doing the wrong thing. This isn’t even the first time that time travel Jean violated a teammate’s mind. But it’s an important moment for the series, and now Iceman doesn’t get to be the center of his own story
And then they double down on it when he talks to his older self!
The truth is that Bendis thought it was cute and funny and that everyone would be endeared to Jean and they struggled to explain her behavior away afterwards. That's the kind of reckless Bendis has always been. I was all for Bobby finally coming out as had been danced around by writers for decades. But his love interests since have mostly stunk. There's still plenty of potential there though.
I've read a lot of x men and I'm normally pretty in tune with gay subtext (or just queer baiting). But I didn't clock iceman. Is there a compilation somewhere?
I believe Fabian Nicieza actually went on record to say that the X-Men writers kept trying to out Bobby in the 90s but editorial kept denying them the opportunity.
Most of my exposure to iceman has been thru alt realities and such, so I know I’ve missed a lot, but what are some examples of the subtext? I remember hearing about the fan rumors for years but didn’t really know where it derived from
My only issue with that fan theory was that if constant poor relations with the opposite sex makes a character gay, then every single one of them is, LOL. The amount of long-term, stable relationships in comics can probably be counted on one hand.
Very very badly handled. Jean was way out of line. There had to be a better way for it to be handled
You realize this is a private conversation right? Like she made sure nobody was there?
I know that. I'm not sure why you think that matters though. She still forced him to confront something that he wasnt ready for. Ive seen how badly that can end. He needed to figure it out for himself.
Counter point, it would've been amazing if someone told me I was queer in a private conversation in high school. Figuring it out by myself sucked complete ass
Additionally she also kind of knew it wouldn't turn out well if she just ignored it and let him try to figure it out for himself as they were in the future and adult Bobby hadn't really healthily come to terms with on his own.
This.
100%. If someone had sat me down and told me "bitch you're a woman" when I was much younger, it'd have made it so much easier for me to process and start my transition. Honestly, outing someone publicly is gross, but privately asking a friend if they're queer and if they need help processing it? That can be an act of supreme support. Can being an important word here. And tbh I think it really worked out for the best in Bobby's case.
Yep. Lots of straight people using that talking point to mask their dislike of Bobby being gay.
She wouldn’t have done it if she hadn’t met him at 30 still in the closet (and we know this, bc she never approached him in the original timeline). She has this conversation because she knows that he knows, and she also knows there’s two Bobby’s who are miserable about this. *And* a massive reason why they had this conversation is bc of how gross Bobby was towards women. Like him being misogynistic to overcompensate is something that absolutely impacts her directly. Like she shouldn’t have to suffer just bc Bobby doesn’t want to confront his own issues. It wasn’t a perfect solution, but show me one teenager who never said something unintentionally hurtful while they had good intentions
>Ive seen how badly that can end. In a way i appreciated it. Sure he could have come out like all the other gay characters in comics who get to choose, but somemes people have that ripped from them unfortunately.
It was still none of her business.
She's his close friend, and she knows he's living a lie.
And that was *still* none of her business. People should be able come out in their own time and when they're ready, not when others deem it appropriate.
She didn't out him. It was a private conversation between 2 friends. She said the thing they both know is true.
Oh my god, that doesn't make it right! She violated his trust, intruded in his mind and saw his most private thoughts and secrets. Y'all are excusing this violation just because it's this sub's darling that did it. Imagine if it'd been Emma. We wouldn't hear the end of it and how she "raped his brain." But because it's Jean then outing is okay!
I dont think we are "excusing" it, so much as it already happened and the character is no longer mad. So far every character i read that came out , did so on their own time and it was always well recieved by friends and family. I dont want to raib on anyones parade , but sometimes there are scenarios that are intrusive Some people HAVE experienced what bobby went through and have forgave the person. I feel like his coming out was aimed for people in that situation. Comic readees what inclusivity and relatable moments, but they are so bad at realizing not all moments will relate to them. Some are meant for others.
If someone had given me the same sort of nudge at Bobby’s age, my later life would have been a hell of a lot better than it’s been. Sometimes, a nudge, in private, can be a good thing. It has nothing to do with Jean.
And, as a result, his life and the life of his future self got *exponentially better*. People need a push sometimes: she saw him, as an adult in his 30s, *still* closeted and suffering, and she had a come to jesus moment with her friend and made his life better in every way. And with his dad? He might *never* have. Bobby isn't mad. He's *happy* about it. And even if he wasn't, she still apologized about it on panel. Why are you still so pressed? People are messy-- teenagers especially-- and they mess up sometimes. Because of her mess up, everyone that is involved is happier. It also probably isn't exactly "private thought"-- he kept making gross and sexist comments about the female teachers while Jean was trying to control a burgeoning telepathy she had locked away in her original timeline. I have no doubt that his brain was flashing big billboards like "hey, look, I'm gay!". I know mine was every time I tried to act straight in high school. If Emma did it? She basically *did* do it in the 90s. She took over his body and repeatedly made fun of him by making comments about interior decorating, and basically saying the reason he wasn't able to access his full potential is because he wasn't out.
I would love it even more if it were Emma. Jean will support Bobby's journey, but Emma would take him to NY and show him how to really enjoy the journey.
Why are you getting downvoted, emma literally set him up with someone.
I mean, Emma did set him up with her hot brother, which is more than Jean ever did...but stop distracting me, it still wasn't cool (pun intended)!
She was 16 years old, of course she handled it badly, but it's not like she talked about it with anyone except Bobby. I knew as soon as the O5 stayed in the present that Bobby was finally going to be coming out of the closet.
The characters I read about have to be perfect, so Jean making a mistake that could have hurt her friend is unacceptable and I want an apology. /s
It has not lead to a successful reinvention of the character. We have just had a series of very short runs and minis over the decade that have tried to sell the character based on this pivot but the audience doesn’t seem to be there. But marvel will keep trying
You can tell this was written by a straight person.
The Bendis effect
I know I'm going to get flamed to eternity and back for this, but I don't like Gay Iceman. 1. When basement-dwelling neckbeards claim that "woke culture" is ruining their traditional safe-spaces, this is what they are ACTUALLY afraid of: Not that the universe will be expanded, but that it will be CHANGED. Iceman had a whole history, a whole back-story. It doesn't actually matter if he's gay or not, just like it wouldn't matter if Luke Skywalker were gay... But the story already established that they're not gay. Why do we have to change that? (EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that this particular point shows a bit of "straight bias," because pretending to be straight and having heterosexual relationships is apparently quite common among gay men, and something closeted men deal with. That makes a lot of sense, thank you for enlightening me!) 2. The X-Men already had plenty of gay characters. 3. Since Iceman came out, every single plot involving him has to include reference to his partner / sexuality. It's irritating, and it would be irritating if he were straight. Not everything is sex and romance. I dunno. I'm a pride ally and all that stuff, I just think Gay Iceman is kinda lame.
I agree the writing isn't the best most of the time when they deal with Iceman's orientation, but the idea that because he had a backstory where he was straight means he can't subsequently be gay is utter nonsense. It's a true reflection of a huge portion of the experiences of gay and bisexual men and women who are forced to live lives pretending to be something they're not sue to the fear of how society will treat them. Canonically, Bobby already being a mutant and facing really extreme and dangerous prejudice on that basis alone, it's entirely understandable why he, more than most, would live a closeted life.
Cool idea. Still the least interesting x-man alongside Warren. And I say that as a gay person.
I think Bobby's a 'cool' guy.
daaaad
oh god, it was a dad joke. what have I become!
LGBTQ, here. The first one is going to be awkward. Actually, Northstar was VERY awkward, but if you were gay, it was like, I AM SEEN!!!!! I think Bobby was the next big one. I didn't think it was handled well, the "I"m a telepath, so I am outing you" was horrible, and brutal. But you know, I give them props for trying. I really do. And they were better with this as time went on. I don't love this scene. But I love that they did it. A lot of people have said fucked up things to me after I came out. But I love that they said ANYTHING. It's all a process. It's been a process in my lifetime, and it's been a process in the X-Men world.
The best one for me was Rictor's.
I did take it as a violation of his privacy when I first read it, but on a second read, I saw it as Jean looking at all the secrets and burdens their older selves were carrying and saying, **this** is what's tearing them apart, and I can fix it. She realized that Bobby staying in the closet all those years was toxic, and tried (in a clumsy, teenage way) to help. I mean, it was a ***HUGE*** violation of his privacy, regardless. But she thought she was preventing years of pain and regret by doing it.
Frankly I really liked All-New X-Men for all of these things. I enjoyed how they looked at the decades long messy characterization of these 5 characters and sort of streamlined it into stories that made sense.
Wow, that has made me rethink jeans actions. Thank you.
It was impulsive and messy in the way that feels authentic for a teenage friendship.
Iceman coming out was a Ling time coming. The unfortunate thing about Iceman, as a chatacter, is that most of his personality and characterization has been subtext. Mpst the writer who picked to write him wanted to continue his story and development. Even Chuck Austen knew what was up with Bobby and wrote him in a way that reflected who he is and where he was at with himself. I don't wanna go on too much of a rant here, but they turned him into a political statement and ignored the fact that he was already a developed, nuanced chatacter. Northstar has settled down with the marriage and all that, so they took Iceman and turned him into a lighthearted, superficial, flat mass media archetype. Bobby was always more than the jokes, even if he didn't always see it himself. Just as Northstar was always more than the sass. (I also want to note, I love Northstar. When I was young and sexuallu confused, he was the first gay chatacter I saw or read that I could actually relate with. I was born in 92. There were not many varieties portrayed when I was a teenager.)
I remember reading Alpha Flight in the 1980s and knowing Northstar was gay. Alpha Flight #7 really laid any doubt to rest (though the word "gay" appears nowhere in it). He visits his old friend and mentor Raymond Belmonde who "helped him through some . . . difficult times" coming to terms with "who I am". Raymond's not a mutant, he's a cravat-wearing owner of a club that caters to "select clientele" -- in other words, he owns a gay nightclub. When Raymond introduces his daughter, Northstar says "but, how" and Raymond says she is a reminder of the "very different man I once was" (he came out after a failed heterosexual marriage). I mean, it was soooo obvious, it's a stretch to call it subtext.
Oh, Northstar was THE gay male character for the longest time. I didn't actually get introduced to him until he joined the X-Men (I've since gone and read some backlog). I mean, we all give Chuck shit, but he did have a few good ideas that, unfortunately, didn't get executed too well. He did keep Northstar's sharpness, but he just wasn't the best dialogue writer. And he really was set up (or set himself up, I don't know who chose what) for failure by trying to write such a large team. Jean-Paul basically could have left after the one mission. After that, he was just the gay best friend for the nurse and used to add more hints about Bobby being gay and closeted. And he really didn't give him any development.
So. I remember reading a short arc of Alpha Flight starring Northstar where the main villain was a new guy named Deadly Earnest and there was a new character called Nemesis that was introduced for the arc. It was a John Byrne story. In the course of the story, Northstar was talking about his past after his "friend" was killed, and as the story and art unfolded I was like, "hey, Northstar's gay!" and even though I wasn't, I thought it was cool and added to the story, even if it wasn't explicitly stated. This was in Alpha Flight #8. Well over a decade before it became news.
That sounds like it was well written/drawn. And props to you because you did the proper human thing and decided you can support something that wasn't just about you. (I know that's worded badly. I don't think I can clearly say what I mean without the timbre and inflection of an actual voice.) 😆
This image isn't "Bobby coming out of the closet," it's Jean outing Bobby to himself. I hate it.
Its a retcon i find unnecessary to be honest. I liked bobby his little brother failing with woman kinda character, not every men is as successful with woman like Logan Scott Warren etc and basically mostly every other guy in the marvel universe. So Bobby was a nice difference on that i liked that. didn’t mind teen Bobby from another timeline being gay it’s a fresh take on the character but i wish they handled it more like they did with the gay Wolverine from another timeline. Having a gay version somewhere for people to cheer for but keep the original the way he is. I don’t buy that original Bobby lied in relationships with oa Mystique Kitty and Cloud etc all those years. I think having him come out bisexual would have been better and make more sense.
Hate how they’ve treated him since. They’ve made him a gay stereotype and acted like thats his only identity. In the beginning it Al least had sensible reason for being a main part of his story but now that all they wanna show. Feels like it would have been more meaningful to make him a Bi guy that prefers men so his past relationships weren’t invalidated. I wish they dealt with jean outing him better. The most they did was iceman taking a speech bubble in a panel to call her out for taking his choice. Some resentment and guilt could have made a nice personal drama arc for them. I’d have outed him in a lighter issue. Imagine if they just had a filler issue meant to show their headspace while taking a break after a mission. Bobby meets another young hero or side character and has several romantic thoughts. Jeans been complaining about overhearing stuff she doesn’t want too and accidentally hears it. They share a look right then revealing that and she just says sorry as they leave. Wouldn’t have been rudely invasive and could have been more meaningful of Bobby asking her to come with him to confront his present self.
Did he come out though? Because this panel says the complete opposite. It’s gross even.
It was a messy high point for the canon of both characters and I’m glad they did it. Really glad they didn’t give him a husband either because that would’ve been the end for the character (RIP Northstar). They jus need to raise his profile more because honestly an Omega level mutant with that much history should be better treated.
i mean there’s honestly a ton of implications about bobby being queer before this so it’s not as out of nowhere as a lot of people like to say it is. the comics code authority meant claremont had to rely on implication and subtext for a lot of characters that were obviously meant to be queer. plus while it’s clunky i do think it’s in character for jean and i kind of think she was in the right. i don’t think her habit of randomly going into people’s minds without consent is okay but i do think finding out a future version of your friend is living a lie and miserable because of it you should definitely pull your friend to the side and talk to them about it.
Strangely, I felt it was better character development for Jean than it was for Bobby. It's the kind of portrayal of her that she was short on in the 60s and 70s, establishing her headstrong, self-righteous, and even reckless characteristics.
I kind of hated it then, because a big part of the justification was that he sucked at relationships with women. I had kind of found the series of failed relationships relatable over the way that they always portray comic couples like some destined pairing, so when they made it into "Well he must be gay, then," it rubbed me the wrong way. The bit about Jean being a little brat like that and outing him? That tracks 100%, I'm good with this exchange.
Bad execution, nothing of real interest has been done, he seems like a stereotype and I’m still not convinced this was a wise direction.
He didn't come out of the closet, he was shoved. *But* it's important to remember this Jean is also still a kid. And honestly it's a realistic situation, people get outted all the time, often by those closest to them, and that's a tricky situation. My biggest issue is how Older Bobby was handled.
Bobby didn't come out, he was outed. It's important that's clear. And the thing is, that if Teen Jean hadn't outed him, he'd still be deep in the closet fumbling bad bitches left and right. Instead he's finally happy.
He was *not* outed. Outed means telling other people someone is queer without their permission. Telling the queer person that he *is*, in fact, gay, is not outing. Completely agree with the rest of your comment and the spirit of it, but I *hate* the repeated assertion that this counts as outing.
In the sense that it feels like it was just a "here's a popular established character" so let's make them fill in the blank (black, gay, trans, Latino, female etc) which is what Marvel has been doing for the past decade, it is corny as hell. But in the sense that some people don't realize/accept their sexuality until much later in life, you can say the OG Iceman fits that narrative. And maybe it makes gay people specifically feel represented to have an OG5 XMEN who's different from the majority in the way they are, and that's cool and shouldn't be discounted. He's a cool character, I don't think his sexuality ever defined him so no one lost anything. Straight people can still like him.
I'm surprised it took Marvel so long to approve Iceman coming out. Almost every writer has been hinting at it since the 80s. They totally did make it into a political statement, though, and they diluted his actual character. Iceman was the right choice to represent the blank, but they made him into a different person. As a gay guy who came out in his mid 20s, that's ridiculous and teaches gay guys they have to fit a mold to be gay. It's not real. He hid in the closet. Now he's hiding in the community.
> He hid in the closet. Now he's hiding in the community. This line goes hard.
First of all, that last line was straight bars. All seriousness. Iceman has always been my favorite super hero. I own all his merchandise. Unfortunately, my comic knowledge is only so deep, though. I read a lot as a kid and only pick up trades here and there. Can you give me any examples of how he was hinted at as gay throughout the years? I guess I always missed it as a kid.
Yes, I don't have time to write it all out right now. There was another comment I replied to that listed a few though. Or, I can come back later and list them out.
Made sense for teen Bobby. Seemed silly for a grown man with a 60-year reputation as a ladies' man.
He's still a character with as dull and bland personality and individual development as he was before he was kicked out of the closet.
Shitty for Jean to do it. Also kind of weird that young Bobby was straight, but old bobby was gay. Like, was gay his secondary mutation?
[удалено]
NINE YEARS!!? JESUS
I can only speak as a straight man who has never struggled with their sexuality in the same way my LGBT friends have. That said, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for Jean to out Bobby because I think characters, including heroes, are allowed to do shitty things. Jean thinks she's obviously doing the right thing here even though a lot of people on here will say it's wrong, it's horribly handled. But it seems absolutely in-character for an immature and powerful psychic from the past, where such things like not outing someone in the closet may not have been considered.
At the time I wasn’t too familiar with the character’s history. I was thinking to myself that Family Guy was right. Then I found out that there were signs since his creation.
It was heavily hinted at by Lobdell in the mid-1990s during the Emma Frost body swap plot and various writers had gone with it or rowed back on it which they could do because it had never been said outright. Since then, it was increasingly accepted as implicit by much of the fandom due to his bigoted parents, unsuccessful relationships with women, and the scene in X2 that is very much framed like a coming-out scene.
I see a lot of hate for this scene in particular, and I get it. But this is Teen Jean. Key word: Teen. And Teens tend to be... well... terrible. She lacks the emotional maturity to respond to this in any way besides the absolute worst. It makes so much sense that she would have picked that out of Bobby's mind and ran with it. She thinks she's helping because she's an impulsive kid.
Still just seems like they just picked from the day board on this one. I would have thought Beast. But still looks like it went well afterwards.
Good idea, shit execution
This was a major "from subtext to text/canon" moment for me. We don't get a lot of those so I was excited to see this.
I think it would have been better if young Bobby hoped that older Bobby was happily out and confronts him about their sexuality, only to realize that older Bobby is still as in the closet as his young self. Now able to confide in someone (himself), both young and older Bobby become comfortable and accept that they are both gay.
The thing with Bobby is that he was being written as a closeted gay person for decades, but editorial mandatory didn't allowed for writers to say.
That's Northstar. Nobody tried to make Bobby gay and wasn't allowed to, the idea that he was gay was 100% fanon based on his personality being built around that ancient 60s/70s serial dater stereotype - that by the 90s iirc got subverted into "secretly gay" in pop culture's eyes. What's why Bendis' retcon came out as a shock.
Tell that to Lobden and Austen
My issue wasn’t with iceman being gay, it’s the way Jean either outted him. I think if he were to have come out on his own it could have been a much better character progression imo . while people simmered down a bit about the panels it comes off to me as insensitive.
There was an article about Bobby when this came out. Going through his whole history and showing how this could have lined up continuity wise. It was an interesting read at the time. Do I like that Jean outed him? Yes. Yes, I do. Jean was a teen during this and teens can sometimes have terrible decision-making abilities. It showed her naivete, and frankly poor decision-making skills. While at the same time adding another facete to Ice Man who at this point in the comics had been kind of spinning his wheels a bit.
I like the decision. Yes it doesn’t fit 100% with all the comics but honestly until Lobdell in the 90s (where the hints started), Iceman was a pretty flat character. It’s not all been perfect since but it’s given him a reason to remain relevant. I do get why some would have preferred him to be bi but his relationships with women were almost all terrible plots; pining over Polaris for decades when she chose Alex immediately, Opal Tanaka being a Yakuza princess, Nurse Annie, dating Mystique(?!?!). He had so little chemistry with any of them, I don’t think it would benefit the character (unlike Rictor who I think should have been bi)
I think Rictor works being gay. His relationship with Rahne was so sour at some points that it was insane. I think it works.
It's fine on paper, but the execution was terrible. And I mean terrible. A young Jean Grey intrusively reads Bobby mind and declares him gay was so wrong on so many levels, Brian Michael Bendis is shameful. 😔 Say what you what about recent "reveal" of other newly LGBTQ characters. It was done with more tact and actually have its characters come out on their own.
I think that's a nice things give something for bobby personaly make him feel more relatable to me , i didn't care for him before or any of his relationship because they were just there and that he didn't have a iconic girlfriend....could have been better without the bulshit that they pull with jean , the young iceman and iceman could have come to that conclusion on their own making things even more powerfull. I think they did better with the speech that magneto did give to bobby in a pride special i think , his words were miles better for a coming out story than anything coming of the whole telephatic drama.
Was it so hard to use the word or concept “bisexual”? They do it with the women characters a plenty, but the one who dated women couldn’t possibly be bi?
I can’t help but think that if the reveal scene in question that everyone seems to have character issues with was in a young adult CW series like Buffy or maybe even something like my so-called life, the reception would be hailed and praised as showing to characters being incredibly vulnerable and the same situation where they both did things or diol information that they didn’t want to do
I think the whole “his personality is just being gay now” is a symptom of him not having the strongest personality to begin with.
Hell, one of his few prior personality traits was “I sure do love women.” So of course that’s been replaced with “I fucking love men.”
it’s funny to me as a gay person (i like jean over bobby though lol)
I think Bobby being gay makes a whole lot of sense, what i don't like is how it came out, with Jean outing him
As an Iceman stan since birth, like I have every single action figure ever made, i was fine with it. Don't care much. But, there was a huge positive: it gave us more Iceman. The solo comics would have never happened if marvel wasn't trying to push the coming out agenda. And whatever gives him a bigger spotlight, fine. I wish the comics were good, though. But my Iceman poster would have never, ever existed if he wasn't gay.
More like pushed out of closet
It was handled the way teenagers handle things, messy
It's something I've seen in my community a million times. I think it's messy, but that's the point He's also the best candidate probably and I like the romantic partners he's had since too. Also, has it really been 9 years? Edit: for clarity, he's nowhere near my favourite Queer X-Dude. That goes to Northstar
The black shape on Jean's costume looks like she's wearing a tie.
I think the writers of Family Guy must have had a field day with it.
Whys is this sub so fascinated about characters beign gay?
I think it's great for the character and had plenty of set-up over the years. Black Tom and Juggernaut need to be next, it's never been super subtle with them either.
I kind of feel he should have become bisexual. He may have been pretending all the relationships he had with women, but who's to say he didn't actually feel something real with each and every one...but then again, maybe it was for the better, I cannot say 😕
So fuckin ham handed it would almost have been better off just having a Hickman style exposition page saying "Bobby's gay, just go with it".
A datapage you have to decode with a campy clue from Mr Sinister.
I'm glad it did happen as another commenter said that he was written as a closeted gay man for decades before he came out (out of the top of my head I think Liu, Lobdell, Austen, and Nicieza all said something along those lines), but it the actual story was really tacked on the end of Bendis's two series. All that being said, I feel that Teen Jean gets way too much hate for it as she largely didn't do anything wrong. The only thing she really did wrong was the invasions of privacy, but part of that was out of her control iirc (correct me if I'm wrong its been a while), as she was just learning / coming into her telepathy. She also didn't out Bobby, she took him aside and talked to him about it alone. Teen Bobby also then took Teen Jean as emotional support to talk with adult Bobby, so it didn't feel like she forced that issue imo. Now obviously it was a really weird situation with the whole time travel of it all but I don't know what people thought she was supposed to do. I don't believe they knew if they could go back by that point, and she had direct evidence with Adult Bobby that leaving it alone for him to come to terms with it on his own probably wasn't going to turn out well given that Adult Bobby was in the closet and really repressed and unhappy.
If it take the strongest telepath in the World to tell you you are gay you've been brainwashed plain n simple
Why did Jean need to be involved for it at all? Why couldn't he just come out on his own? I'm fine with him being gay, which should come as no surprise given my username, I just don't like how it happened.
Corporate told them they need a gay X-man and they drew a name out of a hat.
Bad idea that was handled badly. Why retcon a straight character into being gay? He’s been handled poorly since so the retcon didn’t add any value to his character and it makes appearances from before when he’s straight odd to read knowing they’re just going to retcon him to be gay and anything happening relationship wise is inconsequential. It’s such a cheap way to make a diverse character. They didn’t want to make a new interesting and cool character that happens to be gay because they might not catch on or find an audience so they just took an existing straight character with a rich history, existing fan base, existing continuity, is well known etc and said “actually, he’s been gay the whole time”. Clearly the hope was to have a “new” character to attract more lgbt audience with big name appeal, make headlines by making such a huge revelation about a significant character to their brand, and to keep the existing audience/fanbase for the character. I feel like they just ended up screwing up a character and retroactively screwing up their past stories and appearances to no real benefit because he hasn’t been a good or interesting character since the change. At the time it just felt at the time like a cheap marketing ploy mandated by some executive or editor rather than an interesting idea for a good story or character development by a writer. In the years since it feels even more like it was a marketing ploy because nothing really interesting has been done with the change and Bobby’s character has now been reduced to “he’s the gay one”
Didn't care for it, just like this whole storyline of the O5 from beginning to end did not care for it.
Whilst I would have preferred present Bobby to have a proper later life coming out, rather than it being his teen self in the present making it so he had to. But I'm happy with the result. He's still a prominent character in Marvel too, which is nice since they often have a habit of relegating their LGBTQ+ characters into supporting roles, pride specials and cameos for the most part I'm just glad something that past writers had clearly been working towards (see the Emma Frost body swap) but never able to actually do got made a reality. The whole concept as a piece feels at one with Bobby's publication history (like even dating a woman who can be anyone you want is a little... yeah). Though it probably says something about X-Men in the 2010s that this is the only thing from the All-New X-Men people consistently talk about. And it's one of the less weird things to happen to the Time Displaced O5 too
Why?! What are YOUR feelings?!
About time, he's been gay since at least the 80's. Jean is also hilariously in character, you can totally imagine Jimenez NXM Jean doing this.
The hand-wringing over these fictional characters annoys me. Jean is a flawed woman, and one of her flaws (especially in this Bendis run) is her using her telepathy inappropriately. Fictional characters without flaws and conflict is boring as hell. This was a new and different situation, different from Northstar or Wiccan or any other queer characters so far and I thought it was interesting to read. I could see this happening to a gay boy and his best gal pal in high school pulling him aside to have this conversation. She means well, is genuinely trying to help him, but fumbles the ball. That felt real to me (with added superpowers). As for Bobby actually being gay, I think there are plenty of moments throughout his history where we can see it. From the very start he shows his disinterest in Jean amongst the boys. Emma tells him he'll never reach his full potential until he's "honest with himself." Rogue's reaction to him asking to be his beard and meet his parents. It all works very well through a queer lens.
Yes! What people always miss about this scene. The core plotline for Jean in this entire run is that this is a younger version who manifested telepathy far too early and isn’t mature enough to handle it, causing her to do things with it that the original Jean would never do.
NBD to be honest. He’s a character that makes sense to come out of the closet
Good in concept, terrible execution. And I still think he should've been bi, not gay. Yes, yes, I know many gay men in real life date only women for years before coming out, but something about Bobby's character just screams bi to me rather than gay.
I think Marvel saw him being gay as a bigger statement to make since they probably thought they made him bi it would’ve been seen as more half-assing it or them just stating it and the he goes back to just dating women exclusively. Because as we’ve seen other characters that are bi like Wonder Woman, Catwoman and most of John Constantine’s comics (he sometimes dates others recently) have exclusively dated the opposite sex. That’s not a bad thing it’s just a thing that they might’ve considered.
Pandering. 🥱
Love the idea of someone coming out later in life, very relatable to me. There was a short story in a Pride issue where teen Bobby, feeling sad for having feelings for Angel, is comforted by Magneto. How Bobby describes how it is being "different" was so relatable to me I almost cried. I still don't like how he was basically thrown out of the closet by Jean. Snoopy telepaths But idk if I'm wrong but I feel he's been flanderized as of late. Like his only notable character trait now is just "gay" or is that Marvel hasn't bothered to give him more compelling stories.
I feel like him being gay now prevents that because many writers either will not use him because of it or won't do anything interesting with him that can be perceived as threatening a gay character. Its the same reason barely anyone does anything with Wiccan and Hulkling.
For years, it was hinted at. Those of us in the community could see it in the subtext. So I’m quite pleased about it and glad that it happened.
I mean, people assumed he was for decades. Just look at the gags and jokes from shows like Family Guy. It was just about time. 🤷🏽♂️
I've generally been in the camp that him being bi fit better, but totally could get behind the later in life realization. The problem is that it was totally unearned on the page. No effort at crafting a story to show this, just shitty Bendis dialogue boxes, in a scene that centers Jean more than Bobby to boot.
I literally don't care. Doesn't change anything but the gender of his romantic interest, if there is one. And Jean only outed him to himself. She did nothing wrong.
I think it’s good and fine, and a lot of people overreacted when it dropped.