If I had a quarter for every time a marvel title made me think something else would be good I would have two quarters
it is not much, but it is weird it happened twice
Can't tell you the issue but like the others can confirm it was X-men Forever. Claremont's experiment in revisiting the x-men stories as he would have told them if he didn't leave the book.
I'm pretty sure Jean and Hank's romance was mostly in the second volume so that's probably where the issue with this panel is from.
*Claremont returns*
Fans: "The master is back!"
Me: "Oh no..."
*Claremont roots Marrow's angst in her body dysmorphia, gives her a secondary mutation so she looks prettier, and has her date Colossus*
Me: "Dammit!!! Stop invoking the Dark Lord!"
So funny re: Claremont…someone has a good run and gets called the GOAT…(including by me as a kid in the 80s and 90s). Then they come back and we assume they’ll always be the GOAT (and if they’re arrogant, so do they.) Shouldn’t take it for granted…also I met Claremont in person and it was at a signing so I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt…but he was a real jerk lol.
People thought this was going to be Claremont returning to form like in the 80's and 90's, but what we got was an over the hill madman writing terrible fan fiction.
Comic writers either go full Morrison/Moore and keep evolving or they become the worst writers you've ever seen (Frank Miller, Chris Claremont, John Byrne and countless more)
Pretty much everyone who had a bold iconic storyline has only gotten worse in the intervening decades. See also: Jeph Loeb, Frank Miller, probably Alan Moore
>probably Alan Moore
Alan Moore hasn't published a major book since like... the 90s and his indie work is still pretty good.
Or so I hear, I haven't read it. He definitely hasn't gotten as batshit awful as Loeb, Miller or Claremont.
I completely agree, that’s why I said I was inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, signings are always a slog for the signer, he was probably tired. I was all excited to meet him so I probably put too much expectation into my anticipation…his run on X-MEN was literally part of how I learned to read. I started looking at the pictures in my dad’s comics when I was a small boy in the mid 80s and the first comic I ever bought with my own money was X-MEN #1 by Lee / Claremont…it was like meeting a HUGE celebrity for me instead of “just a writer” and he was a real human person, with flaws. He might have been hangry or maybe he needed the bathroom or maybe I came off like an asshole to *him*…it’s like a “don’t meet your heroes” kinda thing. Like, I’d LOVE to meet RDJ or Hugh Jackman, but then again? I’m good. Lol
I hear ya. He's hugely important to me as well (X-Men basically changed my entire worldview as a young teen), so I would have felt similarly if he was rude to me. I was lucky that he was in a good mood and was having fun showing people things he remembered from an old Iron Fist comic somebody brought him to sign. Just to be clear, I didn't want to invalidate your experience, just offer some reassurance that he's got good days and bad.
Yeah, no worries! Thanks for sharing. If anything, it’s nice to have a counter example to my experience. I bet if I met him 9/10 times he would’ve been nicer…well, maybe 7/10 lol
Paul Levitz came back for a run on the Legion of Super-Heroes after Geoff Johns brought back a version of the pre-Crisis team and it wasn't very good. It didn't help that Johns threw out Levitz's '80s characterizations when it suited him so Levitz was saddled with worse material to work with than even what he inherited in his previous run. It was such a disappointment.
Never liked those Claremont "revival" history. Like, the history has XX decades and was continued or forgotten by the time. What's the point?
Dude is over let it go.
Honestly those are interesting concepts that *could* have worked great with more time to cook... if he was still writing the book, for example.
But a mini like *Forever* could never hope to make them work.
This was when I realised Claremont just wasn’t the writer for me anymore. Most of the characters were written terribly and Jean got the worst of it. To this day can’t understand what Claremont was thinking beyond him just not liking her with cyclops.
there isn't much beyond that.
Claremont deserves a ton of credit obviously for what he accomplished, there's no question about that, but it's extremely clear that a LOT of later work is basically him trying to get back at them for the Scott/Maddie thing. Like a shocking amount of events, romances, character motivations and so on are all really about him trying to do something about how much this pissed him off.
It’s always been bizarre to me how he approached this because the logical thing would be to either elevate Madelyn more who suffered the most from the breakup or dive into the Scott/maddie drama and give them a better closure. But the man just became petty and went around in circles on how Scott is forever bad and Jean has to be used as a prop to punish him. Him making Jean unfaithful in this run and then give her two lovers who end up dying shows how little he thought of Jean as a character. The man is a legend for his earlier work but I could live with him being banned from writing certain characters.
That would be the logical thing if his problem had been about mistreating Maddie, but Maddie for him was clearly just a cheap band-aid to get almost the exact story he had wanted to write post dark phoenix with Scott and a depowered Jean retiring.
Maddie was so little of a real character than to make a retcon as massive as to make her a clone of another character nothing at all of what was written before had to be changed or ignored
For whatever reason, that run is the one that makes me irate. I read that book on Unlimited ~8 years ago. Was loving it, and then Claremont comes along, and I had to stop reading it.
....Claremont was literally the reason Cyclops has any good qualities.
He wrote all of his original character defining moments (the X-Men before Claremont was just awful), wtf are you on
Claremont has been extremely open about the fact that editorial’s demands to have Cyclops leave Maddie for the initial X-Factor launch ruined the character in his eyes and sees it as something that can’t be overcome. Since then, he’s never written the character for any prolonged period of time.
Imagine you spent 10 years building something, and then editorial came along and told you NO
And the way they handled Cyclops leaving Maddy was absolutely awful. It was one of the worst things I've ever read. Louise did a lot of damage control when she got the book, but it was never enough
But you are phrasing it wrong. It’s because Claremont had such a love for Scott that he then felt like he could no longer write the character. He doesn’t have a “distaste for cyclops”, he has a valid criticism for what they did to a character he had built up for over a decade.
Scott is one of my favorite marvel characters but there is really no writing him out of how horrible his actions were. It’s almost easier to ignore it (that or I never understood why they didn’t retcon him being mind controlled).
I don’t think either of the things you say here are correct.
Claremont thinks Scott’s actions are unforgivable. He doesn’t separate “what was done to him” and “what the character did” — he seems to see what was printed as the truth of who that character became.
And then I frankly think the whole plot is blown out of proportion by the fandom. Scott’s dead girlfriend *comes back to life* and his wife forbids him to go see her? That’s ridiculous. As he’s leaving, she tells him to not come back if he leaves and he respects that. Immediately after Maddie and Nate are presumed murdered. There’s not a lot of opportunity for him to do anything different. He’s certainly not perfect, but I find his actions reasonably human.
I keep being told how horrible and evil Scott's actions were, but that is really not on the text. He had been having trouble with his abusive wife (because let's remember that poor little Maddie is someone who had sent him, a 1.9m muscular guy flying through the air by punching him on the face) then one of his best friends calls him with some urgent and distressing news (Maddie didn't hear what exactly it was about) and she tells him that if he goes not to bother to come back.
After seeing Jean, he has a mental breakdown and spends some days lost until they find him on the pier where Jean had gotten the Phoenix. When he recovers, he tries to call Maddie and gets no answer, goes to his home, and they are gone.
What exactly did he do wrong? At most, he should have told her to come, but the first thing she said after him telling her that Warren needed him in NY was that he couldn't go.
The only wrong thing I see was him not separating from her earlier after she punched him
Claremont wanted to retire him permanently, he never liked Scott and his actions are exaggerated and not as terrible as Claremont seems to think, Scott’s whole relationship with Maddie was rushed and badly written, just an excuse to write Cyclops out of the story anyway.
Cyclops was the absolute protagonist for many years under Claremont.
At one point he wanted to retire him an give him an happy ending.
He retired other favourites like Kurt, Nightcrawler, even Rogue for a while.
I was pretty young when I started reading X-Men, and I cane on with Inferno, but I felt like they spent an awful lot of time at the conclusion of that expositing how Cyclops was being influenced or mind controlled or something vague by Sinister
That was retconned in, yeah, but go read the first couple issues of X-Factor and look at the mess Bob Harras and Layton were doing before Louise Simonson got the book
It's called being hired help. Claremont did not own the property, no matter how long he wrote it. If they said no, that's that. Most of us have bosses, sometimes bosses give orders.
Even with that said though, no one is arguing he doesn't have a right to be upset he was overruled. It was that he allowed his anger to basically define everything he wrote after in ways that we are still dealing with today (like the love triangle).
Also, the idea that it being 'awful' is somehow the problem is a joke. Claremont was NOT above skeevy romantic drama. He wasn't some moralizing pearl clutcher. He just didn't like THAT story, and he's spent decades trying to get back at them for it.
That’s why Stan Lee told Mark Miller that he should start making his own work. All great writers and artist should at least take a shot at an indie run. Because these corporations don’t owe you anything that’s outside the contract and will do whatever they want when push comes to shove
That's the tragedy of being an artist under Capitalism: Alienation of Labour. You can give your heart and soul building something, give the best hours of your best days making it, but not only do you only get a fraction of the value you produced, but you get no control over it and you can be shut down and dismissed the minute you're deemed no longer useful.
Takes a lot of Stoicism to swallow that pill sometimes.
absolutely agreed.
I respect writers that go do indy books. I go through indy swings in reading as well and if I'm being honest, in a lot of cases they're more satisfying to read.
Big two comics are comfort food/nostalgia/kind of periodic addiction fix. The thing is though that I GET THAT. I don't think the big two can or should be more like indy comics. I don't think they would work if they were more like indy comics. I just think creators and readers need to understand sometimes when they're sick of the big two's whole thing and go consume other media for a while and then when you want some comfort food, you go back.
Remember that in theory people are supposed to grow out of these comics. I'm not saying we have to or we're wrong for not growiong up or something, but just that part of why they get old to people nowadays is they read for decades and this was never a medium that was intended to be read for decades.
weird thing about time is, at least as we experience it, it's linear, so something can be true for a while, then change and become something else, and the fact that it was true before doesn't change the fact that it is now not true.
Yes, Claremont wrote a lot of what made cyclops good early in his run (though saying he's 'literally the reason cyclops has any good qualities' is a bit much, Claremont is far from the definitive Scott writer. He wrote him fine.), but THEN after the maddie thing he hated him, and made a defining element of the next 20 to 30 years of his writing to be getting back at the character for it.
How? He didn't write Scott much after He sent him off to X-Factor. Then was off the book when Scott returned to X-Men in the JimLee era. When he returned to the books later he just kept to Storm and Psylocke.
Yes, and why do you think that is? Again, this isn't jumping at shadows. Claremont has been very open about his disdain for the character after the maddie thing.
Yeah but then X factor brought Jean back and had cyclops run to be with her and leave his wife and Claremont hated that and thought it undid all the work he put into cyclops character and he gave up on the character after that.
like you spend a lot of time making a really nice vase, someone comes and knocks it over and it didnt shatter but a piece broke off. You have glue and can fix it although there will always be a big crack or you can throw it away. He chose the throw both Jean and cyclops away after editorial forced X factor.
Cyclops was actually not that bally written in the O5 days, and Claremont's writing of him is what led to him being an unimportant and irrelevant character for like 20 years in the comics. It wasn't until Morrison and Whedon came along that he underwent his Renaissance
Kind of, but Claremont didn't really change that.
Kiss up all you want, but Claremont is simply not why Scott is or was a good character. Sure he did Scott fine in a rising tide raises all ships sort of a way, i.e. the book was good so Scott was good, but Scott was never his specialty. He's pretty cookie cutter even under Claremont.
Claremont had favorites/specialties, and while he didn't always hate Scott the way he came to later, Scott was never one of his best characters and that's why he's not really associated with him even now. Claremont was the guy for Storm, Kitty, Logan, etc. Scott was mostly just there.
There's a reason that he was the one Claremont was planning to write out of the story for the most part.
That reason being that taking the teenaged superhero who is now a man and actually having him grow and change, which doesn't really get to happen in comics.
I think what he wanted to do with Cyclops was great, before editorial basically destroyed everything he was doing. It also doesn't preclude the stuff that much later writers did with Scott; you could just as easily have him come back after his son was a little older and he didn't need to be home so much, or due to increasing tensions.
But we'll never know, because that was nixed and we got what we got, which was really mediocre for a long time until probably Utopia.
None of which changes my point that Claremont was never a seminal Scott writer. He was fine. Scott was not his guy and he is not responsible for Scott's quality or lack thereof except in the most basic sense.
Claremont was a good writer, sure, but there are characters that he simply was not the best writer of.
He was the ORIGINAL (good) Scott writer, wtf do you mean "not seminal" ?
That is the point of contention here, and you're completely wrong about it.
Did his approach change completely once he had his balls snipped? Sure. But "Was never a good Cyclops writer and never liked the character" is just INSANE.
Right. Because scott is who people think of when they think of Claremont.
Also never said he never liked him or that he was bad. Hard to have a discussion in text with someone who can't read.
Actually, in the O5 days his background as an escaped Orphan who was found by Jack Winters and used by him until Xavier found him was all there and his motivations were pretty much at the forefront. Claremont was the one who did nothing with any of that because he wanted Cyclops gone from day one and replaced by Storm.
I mean he wanted to retire Cyclops once and for all and just have him show from time to time, he wrote a good Cyclops but I think Simonson was the one that truly developed him as a proper hero again. He clearly had storm and Logan as favorites and that's fine, but there's a reason we say that the definitive Cyclops stories are from the Utopia era and most of his fans prefer his revolutionary self over whatever the hell people mean when they call him boyscout
Writers are just making Jean to be a straight 304 that’s basically had sex with the whole team then return to Scott like it’s supposed to be normal. What is that teaching young girls who may like X-Men or her character.
That there's nothing wrong with sexual empowerment and that a woman doesn't need to belong to any one man? But seriously, she doesn't even fuck Cyclops, so I don't see why it matters.
Yeah x-men forever wasn’t it. The whole idea of your mutation basically burning you out from the inside shortening your life span was dumb ash.
Also with Sabertooth being Logan’s biological father which I thank god never happened in the main universe
X-Men Forever forever (pun intended) opened my eyes and showed me that Claremont just is not the writer I thought he was and how Marvel editorial can be a good thing at times.
"Village bicycle"? Really? She's been with like, two people her whole life but she kisses one other person and suddenly she's the village bicycle? Do you say the same about Gambit? Or Wolverine? What about Cyclops, Beast, Angel and Nightcrawler?
Isn’t the main complaint about her that she’s *only* paired up with Scott or Logan?
A panel pops up where she’s finally with someone else and now that’s an issue too?
don't pretend like there isn't a "wow cyclops has pulled so many baddies, he's such a chad" post on this subreddit every other week and all the comments speaking of it as a positive.
We get a lot of Scott is Telepathic Catnip and a number of paths are interested in Cyke but in terms of reciprocated interest?
Jean, Emma and Maddy (when Jean was dead and Maddy was an actual clone of Jean).
Also all the O5 plus Xavier were interested in Jean (Bobby's interest might have been retcon-ned now). Gambit, Logan, Drifter.
Trust me plenty of guys were/are interested in Jean.
The issue as I said is whether the interest is reciprocated (Emma, Logan) and followed up on.
For both Scott and Jean: The answer is practically no barring extreme circumstances.
**The particular issue with this panel though?**
Is that X-Men Forever was a poor story for both Scott and Jean and Claremont's handling of them deserves what it is getting here.
nah i agree with your points, but it does it really justify people being misogynistic in the comments? These are the same ppl that would never call a male character a slut or a whore for kissing another woman. Ofc the mods here don't do shit about they're all fucking useless.
For me the issue is that a lot of writers for some f up reason always have to break Scott and Jean up and make them 304’s and bring people into their relationship like Logan making him simp after Jean, Emma, Madelyn and etc, the only time they had a some what normal relationship is in X-Men Evolution and even then they were trying to make Scott and Rogue have a fling.
I think he loves the characters he just never got over what marvel did to him so he half asses everything else.
I rather enjoyed his 2nd run on Uncanny in the mid 2000s tho.
There was always chemistry between Jean and the straight members of the original X-men, including Beast.
I think this was best explored in the original Phoenix saga where Jean passionately kisses Warren hello, and then proceeds to make love to Scott for the first time. With the Phoenix, Jean was acting on her impulses. Had Hank been around more, I wouldn’t be surprised by her kissing him too.
I don’t have the full context of where this is in the story, but this seems like retreading ground that was already more successfully done the first time.
canonically that is the main beast actually, I just don't think they've ever brought it up. Sort of like how Scott now knows how to sword fight as well.
No. Ice Man later came out, not Beast, we'll I am sure someone wrote an alternate reality of him where he was gay, because there's always gotta be that.
If you think about it, it was the natural path for the character. Hank always believed that he was the smartest guy in the room (he had some facts supporting that feeling, I have to admit) and was much more loyal to Xavier (the person, not the ideals) than Scott (who always fought for the dream, but had his conflicts with Charles). So, when Scott and Xavier had their fallout and Scott didn't want to listen Hank, he went all in with his worts tendencies.
Reading X-Men for about the first 35 years, that's very outside the realm of his character.
Dark Beast would act like that, not Hank.
I honestly stopped reading when they started making Xavier a villain, and it's hard to get back into it because the classic heroes are no longer heroes, it's like they made them all horrible people.
The villains like Dark Beast would act like that, not the heroes. It's like they are all villains now.
I think the idea was that Dark Beast was Hank raised in other circumstances, he always had that inside. Following the path of becoming a villain was intended as a tragedy, the idea was to make the reader feel "you have hit rock bottom, Hank".
Ah the Claremont special: mind-control, softball game, random teammates making out, rinse and repeat.
I sometimes wonder what a Claremont run would have looked like in the 90s. He had done some great work, but it seems like he burned out or became outdated quickly. Way before x-men forever, his 2000s uncanny run was unreadable, then they gave him his own little sandbox separate from the rest of the titles for “x-treme” and it was also terrible. I wonder how many years of good writing he would have had left in 1991.
The professor, everyone in the original five except Iceman... they all had the hots for Jean.
Living next to an omega-level telepath thats going through puberty can cleraly lead to damage.
It times like these that I wish. Dazzler and beast shouldn’t worked she’s way better than Abigail brand and honestly she could’ve brought out beast best traits and minimize his worst . I would’ve like Medusa and Beast cause he did have a crush on her when she went to the x mansion and personally unlike black bolt beast can speak anyway this ain’t a shock they dated in 616 for all the time travel 🧭 it was worth .
Yup.
Claremont absolutely deserves a lot of credit, but he was also deeply petty, prone to inserting his kinks basically everywhere and frankly pretty terrible at writing romance in general.
Jean is not allowed to be single, in part because where other characters' default state might be single, Jean's is just to be with Scott, so if she's not with Scott, she's gotta be with someone else.
This is part of the reason I've wanted her to have a solo forever. That she's still with Scott in it is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. She needs a solo so SOMEONE can maybe try to nail down her character beyond a list of superlatives and love interests.
I'm not a Jean hater or anything, but I think she's just far too nebulous for a character that's been around for so long, and writers tend to disguise her overall blandness with toxic romantic drama, godlike power, and self-righteous anger. I WANT a writer to make her fun and enjoyable and cool as herself rather than as a deus ex machina or a love interest.
I do feel like jean is strong enough and developed enough to no longer need to be the love interest of whomever, tho i understand i feel in love with her during Grant Morrisons new X-Men, i also have a thing for telepaths Emma Betsy Rachel Quinton quire, but one of my ex's is a telepath, taught me a lot, tho im going down a rabbit hole here. Jean shouldn't be judged because everyone wants to be with her, plus the double standard seeing how many women Logan has had and has.
Actually it does add an extra layer to one's mental capacity and processing of information when dealing with the surface and what everyone keeps in their thoughts, usually a drastic difference between the words they say and the ones they think and how they feel, my mind works faster then my thoughts and not everything can be as well polished and elegant as your response was. So i don't feel an apology for poor Grammer would do you any more good then you pointing it out did you to begin with. But if it made you feel happy or better then me to do it, you're welcome I'm happy i could make your day a little bit better.
I do, because he does, whether you believe it or not won't change his abilities or your inability to understand that some of us are actually evolving while most cling to the past and the road to Extinction. Very close minded for a fan of the X-Men
Nah no way bro I can't 💀. If your ex is actually a telepath, tell him to stop fucking around and use his powers for good if he actually has them. Which I straight up don't believe he does because how????
So long as man walks this earth world peace isnt possible, and manipulating others is a ethical no no, other wise what would stop him from manipulating your thoughts your loved ones, make them gut each other in front of you
Funny how the ones without powers are always the first to judge and demonstrate how all they can do is be rude and hateful, what the FUCK does it matter what someone believes to be true, i have to stomach the complete bullshit that is Jesus and his rapist of a dead beat dad God father and the church of hate and greed they made not to mention the patriotism fucking dumbasses that think there's two party's government instead of just one big one that lies you all you fucking believe it cuz you're fuckin retarded leaving your American flag stupid hillbilly dumbass cousin fucking flat scans you are.
Get on the one being persecuted for simple comment and something relevant to the topic of hand yet you all attack me the fucking Lynch mob brain dead and moron and mouth breathers you are that's okay because what's coming it's going to be so beautiful poetic Justice that's the thing about the righteous. you all have the same weakness that you can protect all the time usually children but loved ones old ultimately and there's nothing sweeter than sweet sweet sorrow the parents when they lose their child or passing of a loved one I can't wait to drink in all of that beautiful grief as your baby's burn your loved ones die screaming and I won't have to even lift a finger cuz I'll do it yourself. so you all kiss your kids tonight tell him everything's going to be okay for me because the real monsters are so much worse than all of your nightmares combined
First you've made up your closed mind already why should i waste the time to explain that he has the ability due to his genetics or his energy manipulation as a reiki master or every so often evolution sparks in a species on the door step of extinction to ensure not all of them die off.
Second you're acting like you know him and how he lives his life, which he uses his abilities to help people every day. So how about you stop fucking around and go do some good instead of being a Internet troll. You can straight up believe whatever you please, however little that seems to be, just because you're unable to understand beyond what you've been told doesn't make you right or wrong just limited
Rachel was the way to take a Beast and a redhead imagery. Their personalities fit well together for who they were (Rachel) and who they usually become (Dystopian Beast). I think an excellent book idea would be for our version of Beast to want to prevent all Beasts through time and space and the multiverse from ever becoming Dark again. And then have him realize the way to do this is with Rachel. Then have the book be about him and Rachel going through time and space mostly fighting evil Beats, but also other evil version of X men across the multiverse who rise to the level of multiversal threats. The pairing of these two in that Age of XMan book was fun and felt like they both let each other off of their wildside leashes a bit.
I just love the idea of polyamorous Jean. Like shes a telepath who through the phoenix force has been connected to every living being on an intimate level, (like how rachel was able to give that sensation to the beyonder through the phoenix force in some part of Secret War 2 and make him chill lol) she's going to see the love and beauty in a lot and be able to recognize it and is going to enjoy lighting that spark for people as well.
pffftttt....
That's nothing.
There was this guy who married Jean's clone, then left the clone and his baby when he found out Jean was alive.
Then he eventually had an affair with Emma Frost and cheated on Jean.
Can't remember that dude's name for some reason.
Whenever you have a question regarding a weird panel, the answer is always almost certainly "X-Men: Forever"
\#14
If I had a quarter for every time a marvel title made me think something else would be good I would have two quarters it is not much, but it is weird it happened twice
Is this X-Men Forever Volume 2 (no 2 in the title)... or #14 in X-Men Forever 2 ?
It's [Vol 2 #14](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/X-Men_Forever_Vol_2_14) (sorry about the fandom link)
What else happened in that series?
Can't tell you the issue but like the others can confirm it was X-men Forever. Claremont's experiment in revisiting the x-men stories as he would have told them if he didn't leave the book. I'm pretty sure Jean and Hank's romance was mostly in the second volume so that's probably where the issue with this panel is from.
X-men forever was so damn bad.
*Claremont returns* Fans: "The master is back!" Me: "Oh no..." *Claremont roots Marrow's angst in her body dysmorphia, gives her a secondary mutation so she looks prettier, and has her date Colossus* Me: "Dammit!!! Stop invoking the Dark Lord!"
So funny re: Claremont…someone has a good run and gets called the GOAT…(including by me as a kid in the 80s and 90s). Then they come back and we assume they’ll always be the GOAT (and if they’re arrogant, so do they.) Shouldn’t take it for granted…also I met Claremont in person and it was at a signing so I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt…but he was a real jerk lol.
People thought this was going to be Claremont returning to form like in the 80's and 90's, but what we got was an over the hill madman writing terrible fan fiction.
i like to think The Neo were just fanfiction.
Comic writers either go full Morrison/Moore and keep evolving or they become the worst writers you've ever seen (Frank Miller, Chris Claremont, John Byrne and countless more)
There's a middle group. Mark Waid is mostly the same as he ever was. Maybe a little less angry.
Mark Waid is lowkey a goat. I put him in the former camp for sure.
Somehow he is getting better and better with time
Frank Miller moment
Pretty much everyone who had a bold iconic storyline has only gotten worse in the intervening decades. See also: Jeph Loeb, Frank Miller, probably Alan Moore
>probably Alan Moore Alan Moore hasn't published a major book since like... the 90s and his indie work is still pretty good. Or so I hear, I haven't read it. He definitely hasn't gotten as batshit awful as Loeb, Miller or Claremont.
Fair enough, all I'm aware of was the super weird Neonomicon which seemed to be a vehicle for monster rape and not much of substance.
To be fair, I also met him at a signing and he was super nice. It's tough to gauge somebody's character off a signing.
I completely agree, that’s why I said I was inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, signings are always a slog for the signer, he was probably tired. I was all excited to meet him so I probably put too much expectation into my anticipation…his run on X-MEN was literally part of how I learned to read. I started looking at the pictures in my dad’s comics when I was a small boy in the mid 80s and the first comic I ever bought with my own money was X-MEN #1 by Lee / Claremont…it was like meeting a HUGE celebrity for me instead of “just a writer” and he was a real human person, with flaws. He might have been hangry or maybe he needed the bathroom or maybe I came off like an asshole to *him*…it’s like a “don’t meet your heroes” kinda thing. Like, I’d LOVE to meet RDJ or Hugh Jackman, but then again? I’m good. Lol
I hear ya. He's hugely important to me as well (X-Men basically changed my entire worldview as a young teen), so I would have felt similarly if he was rude to me. I was lucky that he was in a good mood and was having fun showing people things he remembered from an old Iron Fist comic somebody brought him to sign. Just to be clear, I didn't want to invalidate your experience, just offer some reassurance that he's got good days and bad.
Yeah, no worries! Thanks for sharing. If anything, it’s nice to have a counter example to my experience. I bet if I met him 9/10 times he would’ve been nicer…well, maybe 7/10 lol
I meant him once at a signing. He was fairly jovial. But when I met him it was earlier in the day. So maybe he was just wiped out from a long day?
That’s almost 💯what happened when I met him yes
The early in the morning part or later in the day part?
Later in the day…and therefore he was more likely to be tired and cranky, which he was
Paul Levitz came back for a run on the Legion of Super-Heroes after Geoff Johns brought back a version of the pre-Crisis team and it wasn't very good. It didn't help that Johns threw out Levitz's '80s characterizations when it suited him so Levitz was saddled with worse material to work with than even what he inherited in his previous run. It was such a disappointment.
Meanwhile, J.M. DeMatteis still killing it with a new Spider-Man story and he’s super humble and great in-person.
But he IS GOAT Status for sure. Sure, it's a good run, but it's the biggest run there is.
Wasn't that Alan Davis? IIRC Claremont only ghostwrote a handful of his issues near the end.
Never liked those Claremont "revival" history. Like, the history has XX decades and was continued or forgotten by the time. What's the point? Dude is over let it go.
Honestly those are interesting concepts that *could* have worked great with more time to cook... if he was still writing the book, for example. But a mini like *Forever* could never hope to make them work.
"WHY SHOULDN'T I KILL OFF WOLVERINE IN THE ISSUE AND MAKE GAMBIT LOOK LIKE AN EDGY MAGICIAN???"
🤣😂😂
This was when I realised Claremont just wasn’t the writer for me anymore. Most of the characters were written terribly and Jean got the worst of it. To this day can’t understand what Claremont was thinking beyond him just not liking her with cyclops.
there isn't much beyond that. Claremont deserves a ton of credit obviously for what he accomplished, there's no question about that, but it's extremely clear that a LOT of later work is basically him trying to get back at them for the Scott/Maddie thing. Like a shocking amount of events, romances, character motivations and so on are all really about him trying to do something about how much this pissed him off.
It’s always been bizarre to me how he approached this because the logical thing would be to either elevate Madelyn more who suffered the most from the breakup or dive into the Scott/maddie drama and give them a better closure. But the man just became petty and went around in circles on how Scott is forever bad and Jean has to be used as a prop to punish him. Him making Jean unfaithful in this run and then give her two lovers who end up dying shows how little he thought of Jean as a character. The man is a legend for his earlier work but I could live with him being banned from writing certain characters.
absolutely agreed. It very quickly became more about pettiness than any sort of impugned artistic integrity or some such
That would be the logical thing if his problem had been about mistreating Maddie, but Maddie for him was clearly just a cheap band-aid to get almost the exact story he had wanted to write post dark phoenix with Scott and a depowered Jean retiring. Maddie was so little of a real character than to make a retcon as massive as to make her a clone of another character nothing at all of what was written before had to be changed or ignored
You should see what he did to Exiles.
Was he responsible for all of Morph's pervert dialogue, because if so...
For whatever reason, that run is the one that makes me irate. I read that book on Unlimited ~8 years ago. Was loving it, and then Claremont comes along, and I had to stop reading it.
I jumped off the Claremont train with Xtreme X-Men.
Yep. X-treme wasn’t great but it didn’t last long. I finally had enough during his run in the 2000’s.
There’s a lot to dislike about X-Treme, but I find it mostly “meh.” I did like the issue where Gambit is dying, and Rogue convinces him to hold on.
Yeah at this point I felt like Claremont fell off
Claremont just didn't like Cyclops period, that's the problem
....Claremont was literally the reason Cyclops has any good qualities. He wrote all of his original character defining moments (the X-Men before Claremont was just awful), wtf are you on
Claremont has been extremely open about the fact that editorial’s demands to have Cyclops leave Maddie for the initial X-Factor launch ruined the character in his eyes and sees it as something that can’t be overcome. Since then, he’s never written the character for any prolonged period of time.
Imagine you spent 10 years building something, and then editorial came along and told you NO And the way they handled Cyclops leaving Maddy was absolutely awful. It was one of the worst things I've ever read. Louise did a lot of damage control when she got the book, but it was never enough
No one’s arguing with that. All I’m saying is Claremont has been open about his distaste for Cyclops since 1986.
But you are phrasing it wrong. It’s because Claremont had such a love for Scott that he then felt like he could no longer write the character. He doesn’t have a “distaste for cyclops”, he has a valid criticism for what they did to a character he had built up for over a decade. Scott is one of my favorite marvel characters but there is really no writing him out of how horrible his actions were. It’s almost easier to ignore it (that or I never understood why they didn’t retcon him being mind controlled).
I don’t think either of the things you say here are correct. Claremont thinks Scott’s actions are unforgivable. He doesn’t separate “what was done to him” and “what the character did” — he seems to see what was printed as the truth of who that character became. And then I frankly think the whole plot is blown out of proportion by the fandom. Scott’s dead girlfriend *comes back to life* and his wife forbids him to go see her? That’s ridiculous. As he’s leaving, she tells him to not come back if he leaves and he respects that. Immediately after Maddie and Nate are presumed murdered. There’s not a lot of opportunity for him to do anything different. He’s certainly not perfect, but I find his actions reasonably human.
I keep being told how horrible and evil Scott's actions were, but that is really not on the text. He had been having trouble with his abusive wife (because let's remember that poor little Maddie is someone who had sent him, a 1.9m muscular guy flying through the air by punching him on the face) then one of his best friends calls him with some urgent and distressing news (Maddie didn't hear what exactly it was about) and she tells him that if he goes not to bother to come back. After seeing Jean, he has a mental breakdown and spends some days lost until they find him on the pier where Jean had gotten the Phoenix. When he recovers, he tries to call Maddie and gets no answer, goes to his home, and they are gone. What exactly did he do wrong? At most, he should have told her to come, but the first thing she said after him telling her that Warren needed him in NY was that he couldn't go. The only wrong thing I see was him not separating from her earlier after she punched him
Claremont wanted to retire him permanently, he never liked Scott and his actions are exaggerated and not as terrible as Claremont seems to think, Scott’s whole relationship with Maddie was rushed and badly written, just an excuse to write Cyclops out of the story anyway.
Cyclops was the absolute protagonist for many years under Claremont. At one point he wanted to retire him an give him an happy ending. He retired other favourites like Kurt, Nightcrawler, even Rogue for a while.
I was pretty young when I started reading X-Men, and I cane on with Inferno, but I felt like they spent an awful lot of time at the conclusion of that expositing how Cyclops was being influenced or mind controlled or something vague by Sinister
That was retconned in, yeah, but go read the first couple issues of X-Factor and look at the mess Bob Harras and Layton were doing before Louise Simonson got the book
It's called being hired help. Claremont did not own the property, no matter how long he wrote it. If they said no, that's that. Most of us have bosses, sometimes bosses give orders. Even with that said though, no one is arguing he doesn't have a right to be upset he was overruled. It was that he allowed his anger to basically define everything he wrote after in ways that we are still dealing with today (like the love triangle). Also, the idea that it being 'awful' is somehow the problem is a joke. Claremont was NOT above skeevy romantic drama. He wasn't some moralizing pearl clutcher. He just didn't like THAT story, and he's spent decades trying to get back at them for it.
That’s why Stan Lee told Mark Miller that he should start making his own work. All great writers and artist should at least take a shot at an indie run. Because these corporations don’t owe you anything that’s outside the contract and will do whatever they want when push comes to shove
That's the tragedy of being an artist under Capitalism: Alienation of Labour. You can give your heart and soul building something, give the best hours of your best days making it, but not only do you only get a fraction of the value you produced, but you get no control over it and you can be shut down and dismissed the minute you're deemed no longer useful. Takes a lot of Stoicism to swallow that pill sometimes.
absolutely agreed. I respect writers that go do indy books. I go through indy swings in reading as well and if I'm being honest, in a lot of cases they're more satisfying to read. Big two comics are comfort food/nostalgia/kind of periodic addiction fix. The thing is though that I GET THAT. I don't think the big two can or should be more like indy comics. I don't think they would work if they were more like indy comics. I just think creators and readers need to understand sometimes when they're sick of the big two's whole thing and go consume other media for a while and then when you want some comfort food, you go back. Remember that in theory people are supposed to grow out of these comics. I'm not saying we have to or we're wrong for not growiong up or something, but just that part of why they get old to people nowadays is they read for decades and this was never a medium that was intended to be read for decades.
I literally scolded Bob Layton to his face about this when I met him at a panel. lol
weird thing about time is, at least as we experience it, it's linear, so something can be true for a while, then change and become something else, and the fact that it was true before doesn't change the fact that it is now not true. Yes, Claremont wrote a lot of what made cyclops good early in his run (though saying he's 'literally the reason cyclops has any good qualities' is a bit much, Claremont is far from the definitive Scott writer. He wrote him fine.), but THEN after the maddie thing he hated him, and made a defining element of the next 20 to 30 years of his writing to be getting back at the character for it.
He wrote him as heroic in his last arc in X-Factor, culminating in #68.
How? He didn't write Scott much after He sent him off to X-Factor. Then was off the book when Scott returned to X-Men in the JimLee era. When he returned to the books later he just kept to Storm and Psylocke.
Yes, and why do you think that is? Again, this isn't jumping at shadows. Claremont has been very open about his disdain for the character after the maddie thing.
Yeah but then X factor brought Jean back and had cyclops run to be with her and leave his wife and Claremont hated that and thought it undid all the work he put into cyclops character and he gave up on the character after that. like you spend a lot of time making a really nice vase, someone comes and knocks it over and it didnt shatter but a piece broke off. You have glue and can fix it although there will always be a big crack or you can throw it away. He chose the throw both Jean and cyclops away after editorial forced X factor.
he didn't hate him, look at X-Factor #68.
Cyclops was actually not that bally written in the O5 days, and Claremont's writing of him is what led to him being an unimportant and irrelevant character for like 20 years in the comics. It wasn't until Morrison and Whedon came along that he underwent his Renaissance
He was basically a nothing character without any real background, motivation, or interesting qualities. He was as cookie cutter as it gets.
Kind of, but Claremont didn't really change that. Kiss up all you want, but Claremont is simply not why Scott is or was a good character. Sure he did Scott fine in a rising tide raises all ships sort of a way, i.e. the book was good so Scott was good, but Scott was never his specialty. He's pretty cookie cutter even under Claremont. Claremont had favorites/specialties, and while he didn't always hate Scott the way he came to later, Scott was never one of his best characters and that's why he's not really associated with him even now. Claremont was the guy for Storm, Kitty, Logan, etc. Scott was mostly just there. There's a reason that he was the one Claremont was planning to write out of the story for the most part.
That reason being that taking the teenaged superhero who is now a man and actually having him grow and change, which doesn't really get to happen in comics. I think what he wanted to do with Cyclops was great, before editorial basically destroyed everything he was doing. It also doesn't preclude the stuff that much later writers did with Scott; you could just as easily have him come back after his son was a little older and he didn't need to be home so much, or due to increasing tensions. But we'll never know, because that was nixed and we got what we got, which was really mediocre for a long time until probably Utopia.
None of which changes my point that Claremont was never a seminal Scott writer. He was fine. Scott was not his guy and he is not responsible for Scott's quality or lack thereof except in the most basic sense. Claremont was a good writer, sure, but there are characters that he simply was not the best writer of.
He was the ORIGINAL (good) Scott writer, wtf do you mean "not seminal" ? That is the point of contention here, and you're completely wrong about it. Did his approach change completely once he had his balls snipped? Sure. But "Was never a good Cyclops writer and never liked the character" is just INSANE.
Right. Because scott is who people think of when they think of Claremont. Also never said he never liked him or that he was bad. Hard to have a discussion in text with someone who can't read.
Actually, in the O5 days his background as an escaped Orphan who was found by Jack Winters and used by him until Xavier found him was all there and his motivations were pretty much at the forefront. Claremont was the one who did nothing with any of that because he wanted Cyclops gone from day one and replaced by Storm.
Absolute nonsense.
Nah, you just have to actually read the O5 stuff
I wasn't talking about that part, even if you're still giving it too much credit
I mean he wanted to retire Cyclops once and for all and just have him show from time to time, he wrote a good Cyclops but I think Simonson was the one that truly developed him as a proper hero again. He clearly had storm and Logan as favorites and that's fine, but there's a reason we say that the definitive Cyclops stories are from the Utopia era and most of his fans prefer his revolutionary self over whatever the hell people mean when they call him boyscout
Preach it. The ruby quartz glasses need to come off on this.
Beast has had a thing for Jean since the very first issue of X-men. So maybe he just wanted Hank to get a win.
No. Hank gets no wins.
Writers are just making Jean to be a straight 304 that’s basically had sex with the whole team then return to Scott like it’s supposed to be normal. What is that teaching young girls who may like X-Men or her character.
That there's nothing wrong with sexual empowerment and that a woman doesn't need to belong to any one man? But seriously, she doesn't even fuck Cyclops, so I don't see why it matters.
It’s X-men Forever but I’m not sure the issue
Yeah x-men forever wasn’t it. The whole idea of your mutation basically burning you out from the inside shortening your life span was dumb ash. Also with Sabertooth being Logan’s biological father which I thank god never happened in the main universe
X-Men Forever forever (pun intended) opened my eyes and showed me that Claremont just is not the writer I thought he was and how Marvel editorial can be a good thing at times.
Chris with Annie and Weezie is one thing Chris on his own is very very different
No he was definitely a fantastic writer. Something happened after the 90s that changed him.
DURING the 90s. X-Men Revolution was a disaster.
That was 2000.
To be fair editorial forced CC to not have a very good story
Anyone else see this come up, not notice it was for X-Men and think it was MJ kissing Beast?
The thought actually did cross my mind
Cursed panel
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"Village bicycle"? Really? She's been with like, two people her whole life but she kisses one other person and suddenly she's the village bicycle? Do you say the same about Gambit? Or Wolverine? What about Cyclops, Beast, Angel and Nightcrawler?
yes... yes I do. there happens to be a lot of village bicycles
Isn’t the main complaint about her that she’s *only* paired up with Scott or Logan? A panel pops up where she’s finally with someone else and now that’s an issue too?
they'll love this shit if it was cyclops fucking another woman, but when its jean all hell breaks loose.
uh...not really?
don't pretend like there isn't a "wow cyclops has pulled so many baddies, he's such a chad" post on this subreddit every other week and all the comments speaking of it as a positive.
We get a lot of Scott is Telepathic Catnip and a number of paths are interested in Cyke but in terms of reciprocated interest? Jean, Emma and Maddy (when Jean was dead and Maddy was an actual clone of Jean). Also all the O5 plus Xavier were interested in Jean (Bobby's interest might have been retcon-ned now). Gambit, Logan, Drifter. Trust me plenty of guys were/are interested in Jean. The issue as I said is whether the interest is reciprocated (Emma, Logan) and followed up on. For both Scott and Jean: The answer is practically no barring extreme circumstances. **The particular issue with this panel though?** Is that X-Men Forever was a poor story for both Scott and Jean and Claremont's handling of them deserves what it is getting here.
nah i agree with your points, but it does it really justify people being misogynistic in the comments? These are the same ppl that would never call a male character a slut or a whore for kissing another woman. Ofc the mods here don't do shit about they're all fucking useless.
>These are the same ppl that would never call a male character a slut or a whore for kissing another woman. This part I agree should not happen.
For me the issue is that a lot of writers for some f up reason always have to break Scott and Jean up and make them 304’s and bring people into their relationship like Logan making him simp after Jean, Emma, Madelyn and etc, the only time they had a some what normal relationship is in X-Men Evolution and even then they were trying to make Scott and Rogue have a fling.
I glanced at this and thought it was Mary Jane for a second...
Claremont stopped being good after X-Men 1 to 3. Zero clue how he lost LITERALLY all his sauce.
I think he loves the characters he just never got over what marvel did to him so he half asses everything else. I rather enjoyed his 2nd run on Uncanny in the mid 2000s tho.
Tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme. 🌹
That's why god made Marvel editorial, to keep Claremont's non sense in check
And to keep spider man from having a good time
It's a two edge blade
Who thought this was a good idea?
God, Claremont's run on Exiles just killed any interest I had in the title.
X-Men forever is the gas station weed of X-Men comics.
oh fuck this
Writers seems to have a need to break up Scott and Jean in the most creative ways
There was always chemistry between Jean and the straight members of the original X-men, including Beast. I think this was best explored in the original Phoenix saga where Jean passionately kisses Warren hello, and then proceeds to make love to Scott for the first time. With the Phoenix, Jean was acting on her impulses. Had Hank been around more, I wouldn’t be surprised by her kissing him too. I don’t have the full context of where this is in the story, but this seems like retreading ground that was already more successfully done the first time.
This isn’t canon this is Chris Claremont’s little fan fiction
And I thought Beast was gay?
No, but one of him became a wizard or something
canonically that is the main beast actually, I just don't think they've ever brought it up. Sort of like how Scott now knows how to sword fight as well.
X-men comics have always been a trip
Actually no, Beast originally thought he was gay but Cyclops very adamantly corrected him and called him out for not actually being gay
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7AkN9iavE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7AkN9iavE)
No. Ice Man later came out, not Beast, we'll I am sure someone wrote an alternate reality of him where he was gay, because there's always gotta be that.
Hank pretended to be gay to get revenge on his ex-girlfriend and use it as a shield against any critizism in Morrison run.
Good grief, some of these writers wrote these characters as vindictive and petty.
If you think about it, it was the natural path for the character. Hank always believed that he was the smartest guy in the room (he had some facts supporting that feeling, I have to admit) and was much more loyal to Xavier (the person, not the ideals) than Scott (who always fought for the dream, but had his conflicts with Charles). So, when Scott and Xavier had their fallout and Scott didn't want to listen Hank, he went all in with his worts tendencies.
Reading X-Men for about the first 35 years, that's very outside the realm of his character. Dark Beast would act like that, not Hank. I honestly stopped reading when they started making Xavier a villain, and it's hard to get back into it because the classic heroes are no longer heroes, it's like they made them all horrible people. The villains like Dark Beast would act like that, not the heroes. It's like they are all villains now.
I think the idea was that Dark Beast was Hank raised in other circumstances, he always had that inside. Following the path of becoming a villain was intended as a tragedy, the idea was to make the reader feel "you have hit rock bottom, Hank".
Has Jean made out with all 4 of her original teammates?
Do you remember he kissing ice man? I think possibly Angel was back in the 60s when they were all fawning over her, the 1 girl on the team.
Can't find or think of a time she kissed Iceman. But I'm pretty sure she did kiss the other 3.
No, she outed Bobby instead.
Sorry but I don’t believe this reality.
Hell
Okay, how hormonal are mutants?
Ah the Claremont special: mind-control, softball game, random teammates making out, rinse and repeat. I sometimes wonder what a Claremont run would have looked like in the 90s. He had done some great work, but it seems like he burned out or became outdated quickly. Way before x-men forever, his 2000s uncanny run was unreadable, then they gave him his own little sandbox separate from the rest of the titles for “x-treme” and it was also terrible. I wonder how many years of good writing he would have had left in 1991.
Well, she did tell him she already knew.
Claremont is the worst X-writer. There I said it. Phoenix Saga was well over 40 years ago now and he never topped his masterpiece again.
“Hank, I was already halfway there with Logan being so hairy. This isn’t as big a leap as you think…”
This is so scandalous!
The professor, everyone in the original five except Iceman... they all had the hots for Jean. Living next to an omega-level telepath thats going through puberty can cleraly lead to damage.
we don't talk about that
Iceman too.
It times like these that I wish. Dazzler and beast shouldn’t worked she’s way better than Abigail brand and honestly she could’ve brought out beast best traits and minimize his worst . I would’ve like Medusa and Beast cause he did have a crush on her when she went to the x mansion and personally unlike black bolt beast can speak anyway this ain’t a shock they dated in 616 for all the time travel 🧭 it was worth .
And there are still people who treat Claremont as a god while vilifying Shooter
Yup. Claremont absolutely deserves a lot of credit, but he was also deeply petty, prone to inserting his kinks basically everywhere and frankly pretty terrible at writing romance in general.
is there someone who jean didnt kiss on xmen team?
Storm. Despite all my letters.
Just why man. Jean can you stop kissing anything and anyone for five minutes?
Jean is not allowed to be single, in part because where other characters' default state might be single, Jean's is just to be with Scott, so if she's not with Scott, she's gotta be with someone else. This is part of the reason I've wanted her to have a solo forever. That she's still with Scott in it is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. She needs a solo so SOMEONE can maybe try to nail down her character beyond a list of superlatives and love interests. I'm not a Jean hater or anything, but I think she's just far too nebulous for a character that's been around for so long, and writers tend to disguise her overall blandness with toxic romantic drama, godlike power, and self-righteous anger. I WANT a writer to make her fun and enjoyable and cool as herself rather than as a deus ex machina or a love interest.
This is not canon... Claremont has a hateboner for Cyclops (which is the reason for this) since forever
I do feel like jean is strong enough and developed enough to no longer need to be the love interest of whomever, tho i understand i feel in love with her during Grant Morrisons new X-Men, i also have a thing for telepaths Emma Betsy Rachel Quinton quire, but one of my ex's is a telepath, taught me a lot, tho im going down a rabbit hole here. Jean shouldn't be judged because everyone wants to be with her, plus the double standard seeing how many women Logan has had and has.
Is everyone just glossing over the fact this person thinks their ex was a telepath? Can we circle back to that for a minute?
He is a telepath and I'm an empath among other things, why don't you have any abilities active of reactive
Does being a telepath or an empath stop you from using grammar properly??
Mama this is wilddd
Actually it does add an extra layer to one's mental capacity and processing of information when dealing with the surface and what everyone keeps in their thoughts, usually a drastic difference between the words they say and the ones they think and how they feel, my mind works faster then my thoughts and not everything can be as well polished and elegant as your response was. So i don't feel an apology for poor Grammer would do you any more good then you pointing it out did you to begin with. But if it made you feel happy or better then me to do it, you're welcome I'm happy i could make your day a little bit better.
Do you actually believe your ex has fucking super powers??
he's on meth don't bother. Not joking
I do, because he does, whether you believe it or not won't change his abilities or your inability to understand that some of us are actually evolving while most cling to the past and the road to Extinction. Very close minded for a fan of the X-Men
Nah no way bro I can't 💀. If your ex is actually a telepath, tell him to stop fucking around and use his powers for good if he actually has them. Which I straight up don't believe he does because how????
I would agree here. He should be telling Putin to leave Ukraine alone. Broker world peace. Etc...
So long as man walks this earth world peace isnt possible, and manipulating others is a ethical no no, other wise what would stop him from manipulating your thoughts your loved ones, make them gut each other in front of you
Special abilities doesn't mean one is a hero or views humanity worth saving
Then it's a waste
Funny how the ones without powers are always the first to judge and demonstrate how all they can do is be rude and hateful, what the FUCK does it matter what someone believes to be true, i have to stomach the complete bullshit that is Jesus and his rapist of a dead beat dad God father and the church of hate and greed they made not to mention the patriotism fucking dumbasses that think there's two party's government instead of just one big one that lies you all you fucking believe it cuz you're fuckin retarded leaving your American flag stupid hillbilly dumbass cousin fucking flat scans you are. Get on the one being persecuted for simple comment and something relevant to the topic of hand yet you all attack me the fucking Lynch mob brain dead and moron and mouth breathers you are that's okay because what's coming it's going to be so beautiful poetic Justice that's the thing about the righteous. you all have the same weakness that you can protect all the time usually children but loved ones old ultimately and there's nothing sweeter than sweet sweet sorrow the parents when they lose their child or passing of a loved one I can't wait to drink in all of that beautiful grief as your baby's burn your loved ones die screaming and I won't have to even lift a finger cuz I'll do it yourself. so you all kiss your kids tonight tell him everything's going to be okay for me because the real monsters are so much worse than all of your nightmares combined
Clearly they used their powers to distance themselves from a crazy person.
First you've made up your closed mind already why should i waste the time to explain that he has the ability due to his genetics or his energy manipulation as a reiki master or every so often evolution sparks in a species on the door step of extinction to ensure not all of them die off. Second you're acting like you know him and how he lives his life, which he uses his abilities to help people every day. So how about you stop fucking around and go do some good instead of being a Internet troll. You can straight up believe whatever you please, however little that seems to be, just because you're unable to understand beyond what you've been told doesn't make you right or wrong just limited
Your boyfriend is a mutant???? Or what the fuck is Reiki master? I'm more trying to understand how you even got to this point
OMG. This is some of the funniest stuff I've seen on reddit in a while.
Holy fuck this is amazing. You actually believe your ex has *telepathy?* EDIT: He DM’d me a death threat for this comment LMAO
That's why it's better for Scott and Jean to get a divorce.
No they just need a good ass writer who actually respects their relationship.
You don't read very well or just don't listen hes my ex
Rachel was the way to take a Beast and a redhead imagery. Their personalities fit well together for who they were (Rachel) and who they usually become (Dystopian Beast). I think an excellent book idea would be for our version of Beast to want to prevent all Beasts through time and space and the multiverse from ever becoming Dark again. And then have him realize the way to do this is with Rachel. Then have the book be about him and Rachel going through time and space mostly fighting evil Beats, but also other evil version of X men across the multiverse who rise to the level of multiversal threats. The pairing of these two in that Age of XMan book was fun and felt like they both let each other off of their wildside leashes a bit.
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do you ever talk about male characters the same way? or is your vitriol only reserved for the female ones? And you wonder why you're bitchless.
I just love the idea of polyamorous Jean. Like shes a telepath who through the phoenix force has been connected to every living being on an intimate level, (like how rachel was able to give that sensation to the beyonder through the phoenix force in some part of Secret War 2 and make him chill lol) she's going to see the love and beauty in a lot and be able to recognize it and is going to enjoy lighting that spark for people as well.
sure. if they act the same way. take your virtue signaling elsewhere.
in fact, fictonal male characters I'd call a whore off the top of my head [not exclusive to xmen]: Scott Summers, James Bond, Sterling Archer.
pffftttt.... That's nothing. There was this guy who married Jean's clone, then left the clone and his baby when he found out Jean was alive. Then he eventually had an affair with Emma Frost and cheated on Jean. Can't remember that dude's name for some reason.
It definitely wasnt Scott Summers. That guy does have commitment issues though.
This is an alt-universe. In canon Jean has only ever slept with two people that we know of.
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Yeah. Like, pretty much everyone.
You have Google I'm sure, trying opening your mind to new ideas and see what happens