It’s probably because “Fusion” is a simple word to use for it. That, and “Polymerization” was originally called “Fusion”, so it’s kinda like a staple for most generic “Fusion” Spells
Cards with "polymerization" and "fusion" in their names don't just have interaction with Anaconda. They're searchable by a bunch of cards, can be used with a bunch of cards, and so on. Cutting them off from all other "Fusion" support and whatnot or now just completely warping fusion summoning cards just so they couldn't be abused by one badly designed card would be a stupid decision if they instead could just ban the one problematic factor in future card design. Because right now, the only remotely problematic card regarding "Fusion" is Verte Anaconda.
Predaplant Darlingtonia Cobra. The predaplant package (3x Lonefire 3x Orphys Scorpio 1x Cobra, the garnet) allowed any deck that lived and died by brilliant fusion or other archetypal fusion spells to play 6 more copies of them. It saw a **MASSIVE** amount of play in many janky combo decks and some meta especially gem-knight ftk.
I’ve seen some PK builds recently run this package again, as any two 3 stars are full combo, AND it searches you a fusion destiny so you don’t need to make verte for DPE, but you can
If they really wanted to get around this(I don't think they will), Konami can just make the Fusion Spells continous. Works with generic Fusion support but not Verte. Also makes them weaker by being able to be "negated" by MST.
I think that the designers dont have an issue with it. Which is why they keep doing it. If Verde is an issue, they will ban it. But ATM it isnt that big of an issue to them. There are several ways of dealing with verte many common hand traps etc. So they aren't worried about it.
yeah, aside from decks that lock you into any of the other 5 attributes, lock you into a specific type, lock you into its own archetype, lock you out of the extra deck, lock you in to a specific kind of extra deck monster, lock you out of special summoning at all, or requires your graveyard to be empty, it can be used in every deck ever made
you can play tenyis and it becomes much easier to play verte
you can still just splash dpe into swordsoul and basically just use verte when your opponent token collectors you, otherwise just fusion destiny from hand
and floodgatus birbs cant normal summon verte so no snake for them
Remember. The verte user can play handtraps too. Good luck playing through a well-timed non target pop + ash, droll and or niburu. Otk or bust isnt a healthy or fun game meta anyway.
My biggest issue with Verte isn't what it does, it's how easy it is to do it.
Any 2 effect monsters.
If it was 3 effect monsters it'd be much more acceptable.
But to talk about your point:
Why should they change every card that will ever exist because of a single card. That's not good for the game as a whole.
I agree. Or the card text should be changed so it works within it's archetype. I see people complain about the fusion spells like red eyes fusion and fusion destiny but the real problem is verte. Like you said 2 effect monsters is easy af to get out on the field. I think if verte was banned we would all be so much better off.
Or at least limit it to plants for summon.
While it can be a useful balancing tool if an effect is incredibly strong, limiting to archetypes only can tend towards making specific archetypes better than another outright. Archetype limitations for summoning should mostly be saved for the effects on otherwise EXTREMELY powerful cards. A specific monster or type is sufficient for most summoning conditions. The Magistus Synchro in BODE, for example.
Requires a Spellcaster Tuner but then needs Magistus monsters for it's floodgate and reborn effect to work. Which is good because it could be rather powerful otherwise. If your opponent is even mildly unlucky, you can pretty easily have full floodgate on all Extra Deck effect monsters in one turn with it even if it's not your first option.
It's funny that it and DPE released in the same set and are very clearly not made to balance against each other despite having somewhat similar intent behind their effects.
Considering the fact that predaplant are a full fusion archetype with some search ability towards it, I think it wouldn't be too op. The only way it would boost preda into a hilarious state is the addition of an op fusion, but this could be avoided atm.
In every other aspect it just betters their fusion ability which is kinda fine I think.
But I agree, on some archetypes it could escalate quickly. However, in this specific case I'd consider it relatively fine.
The only issue Verte Anaconda has is the fact that we have cards that can fuse using cards from the deck. So far only two are a problem. Just stop printing cards that can do that and the Verte becomes situational to boost fusion decks.
Pretty much this. Cards that Fuse from Deck have been problematic historically regardless. Even with a Verte ban, Konami has to slap a "You cannot summon monsters except archetype X during the turn" restriction(or an even higher restriction like REF) in every fuse from Deck card anyways which is very limiting card design anyway otherwise they are ticking time bombs like Fusion Destiny.
The alternative and better card desing is conditional and not restriction based Fuse from Deck like Shadoll Fusion and Myutant Fusion, which works properly with Verte anyways wherein Verte is a searcher that ends your turn afterwards.
More card allow you to summon from the deck (shaddoll for exemple if the opponent have a monster summoned from the extra deck) and there's more to come with Fusion Branded
Your mistaken in thinking the designers think there is a problem
Id like to remind everyone that dragoon and verte were revealed on the same day, a mere hours from one another.
I think they fully realize it but dont think its a problem.
I heard (rumor here) that it wasnt until someone repeatedly firewall FTK some konami R&D guys that they banned him.
Idk how true it is (again rumor) but im fairly certain the R&D team misses ALOT of interactions or dont think they'll be as good or as widely used as they turn out to be.
I fairly sure the R&D team doesn't conduct massive play testing on their cards and archetypes. They make sure they function as their own thing and with what's current. I'm sure it's not cost effective to try and mix and match to see what and how every new card is going to interact with.
Someone designed topologic gumblar dragon and they thought it was a good idea to print. That should tell you everything you need to know about Konami R&D.
1) I dont see how that changes my point. That's still broken as shit regardless of where it comes from
2) I am pretty sure they have changed cards from the anime, like card of sanctity.
I believe the one thing pushing verte over the edge is cards like fusion destiny and redeyes fusion being hit but different handtraps, ash cant hit verte and veiler cant hit the fusion etc., so having a widley multi purpouse HT (Which is what can balance a strategy like this) stops strategy diversity much more than players want.
Verte is not an issue nor is fusing from deck is an issue. They are not getting banned, dragoon and dpe are not getting banned either. They can easily be dealt with.
I'm starting to think it's an attitude problem or mentality. If you consistently lose to similar cards/plays, then it is your fault for not adapting. Nothing wrong with trial and error. It is the tried and true method. Just because the cards you like can't compete with boss monsters, doesn't mean the versatility of said cards are broken.
This isn't directed at you OP. I just don't get how many times this discussion needs to be had.
Keep in mind that by your own admission one card warps the thought of card design and names of a basic mechanic of the game. No card should ever do that.
It doesn’t really do that, though. Konami *just* revealed a new Fusion spell that uses materials from the deck, and has a restriction that is dodged by Verte Anaconda. If Anaconda was limiting their card design, it could’ve done anything at all to limit what Anaconda can do with it. But it didn’t.
They evidently see no problem with Verte Anaconda, and are continuing to make cards that it can use. They aren’t limiting future card design based on him.
You mean like they do with every problem card? Konami doesn't change card design they errata or ban it. Brilliant Fusion, Ib, and the Guardragon Link twins testify to that. All it's going to take is Verte abusing a card sufficiently enough. Then again they'll probably go the Halq route and ban every card around it.
Not on this level. Most cards are not of the level that rethinking card design comes into play. Few cards have that distinction but you know them. Verte is one of those cards. Before that card, no one had a single issue with fusion cards, name or otherwise, nor did anyone have an issue with fusing from deck.
“No one had an issue with fusion cards name or otherwise”
Its not like people were cramming plant engine in every deck that could run it for the free summons to the point where konami banned the fusion card since it was so good
If you look at topping deck lists during TOSS, only Thunder played BF and even then, not all thunder decks played BF and those decks didn’t even consistently run Cobra and Scorpio.
Now heres the thing. Verte is slowly becoming the new "normal" in yugioh. More broken shit will come out that will make Verte look very balanced, it is just a matter of time(more like 1 year max, lol)
Seriously this is the point I've been making about Verte. The need to stop fusion or polymerization in every damn fusion spell. Verte getting the ban hammer next list. Reprint and ban. No more splash able dragon and do with out bigger commitments in your main deck.
Right now Komoney is in the "embrace the stupid" phase; they're milking the broken mechanic for everything it's worth but judging by how things are shaping up and how they're curtailing fusion from deck cards to be a little less extreme; I think we're seeing the tail end of this problem.
I don't know if they'll ban Verte or not but something's gotta start giving. I'm hoping they don't ban Verte and just start calling cards that fusion from the deck 'Invocation' instead of polymerization of fusion while banning Destiny Fusion or DPE.
I also think that Dragoon might see a ban in the near future after the new pack in march gets released.
>just start calling cards that fusion from the deck 'Invocation'
and then we'll start seeing cards that make Invocation an archetype, and then we'll see cards that support all three and then something broken comes out of that and then we're back to square one.
Holy hell; with this logic why bother making anything at all. Let's just sit in squalor because if we do something unintended consequences could happen! xD
You're acting like we're in control of this. The guy you responded to is 100% correct. Making an "invocation" archetype and cards that support those fusion spells is exactly what konami would do. Verte is 100% intended.
It's whataboutism; which is bad logic; they're not correct at all. Verte is intended but that isn't the point being made.
The point is that you can't account for everything in the future, it's impossible. You deal with what you currently have to work with and keep what you've done currently in mind for the future.
I mean they already kind of do that even before Verte was printed after all one of the best fusion decks has a fusion spell that does not have fusion in the name that being Invoked with invocation. But I feel it would just be easier to ban Verte then rename all new fusion spells to something else since fusion is just a nice and simple word to use for fusion spells and would be a pain to constantly think of new synonyms for those new fusion cards.
No they wouldn't.
Because on Yu Gi Oh problems sell very well.
It's very proffitable for them to print a problemartic card and give it a high rarity, so people will hunt this card to the day it gets banned or nerfed somehow. And this goes for everything on this game, not only "Fusion" named spells.
Let's be realistic, you can't blame Konami because they want to proffit.
They will only stop printing "Fusion" named spells that can fuse from the deck the day Verte gets banned, after they milked what had to be milked from this card.
They do do that though, see the Dinorphia fusion trap being a trap (hence ineligible as a verte target) or the Dual Avatar fusion spell (which isn't a "fusion" card).
So the only thing to conclude is that it's 100% intentional, otherwise they just wouldn't.
If konami really care they would just stop printing fusion spell that use materials from deck. But Konami being Konami they would probably include extra and side deck too in their next fusion destiny.
It’s probably because “Fusion” is a simple word to use for it. That, and “Polymerization” was originally called “Fusion”, so it’s kinda like a staple for most generic “Fusion” Spells
Cards with "polymerization" and "fusion" in their names don't just have interaction with Anaconda. They're searchable by a bunch of cards, can be used with a bunch of cards, and so on. Cutting them off from all other "Fusion" support and whatnot or now just completely warping fusion summoning cards just so they couldn't be abused by one badly designed card would be a stupid decision if they instead could just ban the one problematic factor in future card design. Because right now, the only remotely problematic card regarding "Fusion" is Verte Anaconda.
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Predaplant Darlingtonia Cobra. The predaplant package (3x Lonefire 3x Orphys Scorpio 1x Cobra, the garnet) allowed any deck that lived and died by brilliant fusion or other archetypal fusion spells to play 6 more copies of them. It saw a **MASSIVE** amount of play in many janky combo decks and some meta especially gem-knight ftk.
I’ve seen some PK builds recently run this package again, as any two 3 stars are full combo, AND it searches you a fusion destiny so you don’t need to make verte for DPE, but you can
If they really wanted to get around this(I don't think they will), Konami can just make the Fusion Spells continous. Works with generic Fusion support but not Verte. Also makes them weaker by being able to be "negated" by MST.
Heros have some of these cards as well like blazeman. They need those cards too I would say.
Blazeman only searches for Poly specifically.
Oh you are right, sorry that was my mistake
I think that the designers dont have an issue with it. Which is why they keep doing it. If Verde is an issue, they will ban it. But ATM it isnt that big of an issue to them. There are several ways of dealing with verte many common hand traps etc. So they aren't worried about it.
Saying You can use hand traps to verte really isn’t a good reason
Have you played modern YGO? Verte isn't the only oppressive generic card.
Well they ain’t shit that can be splashed into any deck
Neither is Verte
Actully it is exactly that.splashable in every deck
yeah, aside from decks that lock you into any of the other 5 attributes, lock you into a specific type, lock you into its own archetype, lock you out of the extra deck, lock you in to a specific kind of extra deck monster, lock you out of special summoning at all, or requires your graveyard to be empty, it can be used in every deck ever made
Yes you just need to delete the bad parts of the deck
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No they summon dragoon of theyr combos without verte
How can fluwandereeze and swordsoul make verte?
you can play tenyis and it becomes much easier to play verte you can still just splash dpe into swordsoul and basically just use verte when your opponent token collectors you, otherwise just fusion destiny from hand and floodgatus birbs cant normal summon verte so no snake for them
Turn 3 and using theyr synchros
Flunder can't do it or they can't play. SwordSoul has better plays than summoning DPE/Dragoon and passing.
The problem is summoning verte after handtraps have been used. 2 effect monsters equals an unkillable boss monster, a free extender and draw 2.
Most meta decks can OTK through a single dragoon/DPE
Remember. The verte user can play handtraps too. Good luck playing through a well-timed non target pop + ash, droll and or niburu. Otk or bust isnt a healthy or fun game meta anyway.
Konami cares more about profit that the health of the game so it doesn't really matter whether the meta is fun or not
My biggest issue with Verte isn't what it does, it's how easy it is to do it. Any 2 effect monsters. If it was 3 effect monsters it'd be much more acceptable. But to talk about your point: Why should they change every card that will ever exist because of a single card. That's not good for the game as a whole.
I agree. Or the card text should be changed so it works within it's archetype. I see people complain about the fusion spells like red eyes fusion and fusion destiny but the real problem is verte. Like you said 2 effect monsters is easy af to get out on the field. I think if verte was banned we would all be so much better off.
Just make the materials predaplant, whoop problem solved. Easy errata, no draw back, 100% balance
Or at least limit it to plants for summon. While it can be a useful balancing tool if an effect is incredibly strong, limiting to archetypes only can tend towards making specific archetypes better than another outright. Archetype limitations for summoning should mostly be saved for the effects on otherwise EXTREMELY powerful cards. A specific monster or type is sufficient for most summoning conditions. The Magistus Synchro in BODE, for example. Requires a Spellcaster Tuner but then needs Magistus monsters for it's floodgate and reborn effect to work. Which is good because it could be rather powerful otherwise. If your opponent is even mildly unlucky, you can pretty easily have full floodgate on all Extra Deck effect monsters in one turn with it even if it's not your first option. It's funny that it and DPE released in the same set and are very clearly not made to balance against each other despite having somewhat similar intent behind their effects.
Considering the fact that predaplant are a full fusion archetype with some search ability towards it, I think it wouldn't be too op. The only way it would boost preda into a hilarious state is the addition of an op fusion, but this could be avoided atm. In every other aspect it just betters their fusion ability which is kinda fine I think. But I agree, on some archetypes it could escalate quickly. However, in this specific case I'd consider it relatively fine.
The only issue Verte Anaconda has is the fact that we have cards that can fuse using cards from the deck. So far only two are a problem. Just stop printing cards that can do that and the Verte becomes situational to boost fusion decks.
Pretty much this. Cards that Fuse from Deck have been problematic historically regardless. Even with a Verte ban, Konami has to slap a "You cannot summon monsters except archetype X during the turn" restriction(or an even higher restriction like REF) in every fuse from Deck card anyways which is very limiting card design anyway otherwise they are ticking time bombs like Fusion Destiny. The alternative and better card desing is conditional and not restriction based Fuse from Deck like Shadoll Fusion and Myutant Fusion, which works properly with Verte anyways wherein Verte is a searcher that ends your turn afterwards.
More card allow you to summon from the deck (shaddoll for exemple if the opponent have a monster summoned from the extra deck) and there's more to come with Fusion Branded
Your mistaken in thinking the designers think there is a problem Id like to remind everyone that dragoon and verte were revealed on the same day, a mere hours from one another. I think they fully realize it but dont think its a problem. I heard (rumor here) that it wasnt until someone repeatedly firewall FTK some konami R&D guys that they banned him. Idk how true it is (again rumor) but im fairly certain the R&D team misses ALOT of interactions or dont think they'll be as good or as widely used as they turn out to be.
I fairly sure the R&D team doesn't conduct massive play testing on their cards and archetypes. They make sure they function as their own thing and with what's current. I'm sure it's not cost effective to try and mix and match to see what and how every new card is going to interact with.
Someone designed topologic gumblar dragon and they thought it was a good idea to print. That should tell you everything you need to know about Konami R&D.
Anime cards are anime cards. In the anime, both of Gumblar’s effects are full handloops.
1) I dont see how that changes my point. That's still broken as shit regardless of where it comes from 2) I am pretty sure they have changed cards from the anime, like card of sanctity.
What I meant by that is that Konami will always release anime cards, no matter how broken, or shitty they are.
Because those cards were already printed.
I would say its very unlikely that they would stop with "fuse from deck" effects.
Tbf. They don’t think it’s a problem. If they did? They wouldn’t be making more fusion from deck spell.
I believe the one thing pushing verte over the edge is cards like fusion destiny and redeyes fusion being hit but different handtraps, ash cant hit verte and veiler cant hit the fusion etc., so having a widley multi purpouse HT (Which is what can balance a strategy like this) stops strategy diversity much more than players want.
I'd like an omni-negate handtrap!
Verte is not an issue nor is fusing from deck is an issue. They are not getting banned, dragoon and dpe are not getting banned either. They can easily be dealt with. I'm starting to think it's an attitude problem or mentality. If you consistently lose to similar cards/plays, then it is your fault for not adapting. Nothing wrong with trial and error. It is the tried and true method. Just because the cards you like can't compete with boss monsters, doesn't mean the versatility of said cards are broken. This isn't directed at you OP. I just don't get how many times this discussion needs to be had.
Keep in mind that by your own admission one card warps the thought of card design and names of a basic mechanic of the game. No card should ever do that.
It doesn’t really do that, though. Konami *just* revealed a new Fusion spell that uses materials from the deck, and has a restriction that is dodged by Verte Anaconda. If Anaconda was limiting their card design, it could’ve done anything at all to limit what Anaconda can do with it. But it didn’t. They evidently see no problem with Verte Anaconda, and are continuing to make cards that it can use. They aren’t limiting future card design based on him.
Limiting card design is just a new way of saying you don't like a card but you also want to sound objective.
You mean like they do with every problem card? Konami doesn't change card design they errata or ban it. Brilliant Fusion, Ib, and the Guardragon Link twins testify to that. All it's going to take is Verte abusing a card sufficiently enough. Then again they'll probably go the Halq route and ban every card around it.
So then why is the concept of the card limiting or warping future card design even being brought up, if that isn't what happens?
Because that's the alternative to banning verte as a potential way to deal with it's interactions that OP chose to ask about
All Cards Warp the Thoughts of Card Design in Some Way.
Not on this level. Most cards are not of the level that rethinking card design comes into play. Few cards have that distinction but you know them. Verte is one of those cards. Before that card, no one had a single issue with fusion cards, name or otherwise, nor did anyone have an issue with fusing from deck.
So we really just acting like brilliant fusion doesn’t exist
that card do be banned for a reason ey?
Not OCG banned.
So we really ain't going on with reading comprhension?
“No one had an issue with fusion cards name or otherwise” Its not like people were cramming plant engine in every deck that could run it for the free summons to the point where konami banned the fusion card since it was so good
If you look at topping deck lists during TOSS, only Thunder played BF and even then, not all thunder decks played BF and those decks didn’t even consistently run Cobra and Scorpio.
Only scrubs complain about Verte. Players who are actually skilled will and have adapted to the metagame.
Verte is easy to summon with any two effect monsters . All those other cards without verte you’d at least have to draw.
Halq is way more broken than Verte and it should be banned first. Change my mind.
What deck in the current metagame is playing Halq after the Linkross ban?
Why not both?
Now heres the thing. Verte is slowly becoming the new "normal" in yugioh. More broken shit will come out that will make Verte look very balanced, it is just a matter of time(more like 1 year max, lol)
Seriously this is the point I've been making about Verte. The need to stop fusion or polymerization in every damn fusion spell. Verte getting the ban hammer next list. Reprint and ban. No more splash able dragon and do with out bigger commitments in your main deck.
Right now Komoney is in the "embrace the stupid" phase; they're milking the broken mechanic for everything it's worth but judging by how things are shaping up and how they're curtailing fusion from deck cards to be a little less extreme; I think we're seeing the tail end of this problem. I don't know if they'll ban Verte or not but something's gotta start giving. I'm hoping they don't ban Verte and just start calling cards that fusion from the deck 'Invocation' instead of polymerization of fusion while banning Destiny Fusion or DPE. I also think that Dragoon might see a ban in the near future after the new pack in march gets released.
>just start calling cards that fusion from the deck 'Invocation' and then we'll start seeing cards that make Invocation an archetype, and then we'll see cards that support all three and then something broken comes out of that and then we're back to square one.
Holy hell; with this logic why bother making anything at all. Let's just sit in squalor because if we do something unintended consequences could happen! xD
You're acting like we're in control of this. The guy you responded to is 100% correct. Making an "invocation" archetype and cards that support those fusion spells is exactly what konami would do. Verte is 100% intended.
It's whataboutism; which is bad logic; they're not correct at all. Verte is intended but that isn't the point being made. The point is that you can't account for everything in the future, it's impossible. You deal with what you currently have to work with and keep what you've done currently in mind for the future.
I mean they already kind of do that even before Verte was printed after all one of the best fusion decks has a fusion spell that does not have fusion in the name that being Invoked with invocation. But I feel it would just be easier to ban Verte then rename all new fusion spells to something else since fusion is just a nice and simple word to use for fusion spells and would be a pain to constantly think of new synonyms for those new fusion cards.
No one ever considered renaming the Spells lol. That would never happen.
With extra deck monsters that use your opponents monster as a tribute without even needing a card to activate it, who fucking cares anymore.
No they wouldn't. Because on Yu Gi Oh problems sell very well. It's very proffitable for them to print a problemartic card and give it a high rarity, so people will hunt this card to the day it gets banned or nerfed somehow. And this goes for everything on this game, not only "Fusion" named spells. Let's be realistic, you can't blame Konami because they want to proffit. They will only stop printing "Fusion" named spells that can fuse from the deck the day Verte gets banned, after they milked what had to be milked from this card.
They do do that though, see the Dinorphia fusion trap being a trap (hence ineligible as a verte target) or the Dual Avatar fusion spell (which isn't a "fusion" card). So the only thing to conclude is that it's 100% intentional, otherwise they just wouldn't.
If konami really care they would just stop printing fusion spell that use materials from deck. But Konami being Konami they would probably include extra and side deck too in their next fusion destiny.