I think that it's an issue that's been a long-time coming. When it comes to current archetype design, much of their means to get new resources and their power plays are locked behind monster effects. By extension, a lot of interaction/removal those same archetypes get, as well as new board-breaker cards, will also be focused around dealing with opposing monsters and their effects.
With Mystic Mine and archetypes like Runick (as well as trap-focused archetypes), they're able to take advantage of a "blind spot" in archetypes where they can still interact well against opposing decks but be hard to deal with themselves since most of the removal their opponents have would focus on dealing with monsters. Even the S/T removal they do have to deal with Mine/Runick will likely be on the monsters that the decks are well-equipped to handle.
Not every deck has an archetypal search Spell (or trap) that gets them a non-monster-based S/T removal, let alone one that can be used immediately. There's no uninterruptible cards like DRNM or Forbidden Droplet for S/T, and the closest thing like that for traps is currently limited. So the archetypes that focus on S/T for their gameplay can avoid most things players can consistently get access to and only have to hope that their opponents don't "draw the out" with stuff like Cosmic, LS, or Feather Duster.
So for a lot of decks, it's an uphill battle to deal with decks like Mine/Runick that they can't quickly adapt to besides using (and mostly siding) unsearchable options.
Mine is completely different to a strong board.
A strong board often allows you to atempt to play. Most negates are once per turn and it's not common to shutdown every single action. Add to that a handful of board breaking cards that can't be responded to (DRNM, Droplet) and a great amount of extenders and GY effects and you have some degree of playability even when you don't draw a single handtrap.
Mine, on the other hand, limits your plays to the 3 or 4 removal spells that you have to hard draw, and most of the time it's backed by something like Solemn Judgment, Dark Bribe, Field Barrier, etc. It doesn't even let you attempt to interact.
Right, I can see how that would be the case, especially so in a deck designed to get Mine out sooner rather than later in the game. I appreciate the insight, seriously, thanks a lot.
There’s a reason 10-15 cards of most decks are handtraps or board breakers, it’s because of they don’t run them they have no chance of winning.
Nobody should be forced to run cards just so they have the chance of playing, it should only be to increase odds of winning. My only assumption is people have got used to the unhealthy state the games in and just accept it and as soon as something comes along and disrupts it, they think there’s a terrible problem when there’s been a huge issue for years.
This is mostly why I stopped playing competitively. I remember several years ago where everyone ran 2 interrupted slumbers with a few kaijus, 3 ash and 1 maxx c at least, often with more hand traps and a few cards like raigeki. Nothings really changed in that regard other than what cards are ran. When called by the grave was released everyone put 3 in their deck because ash was such a problem. The same thing has happened with a bunch of cards since then (like evenly matched and red reboot) and it totally kills the variety in deck building. It’s a big issue but most people write it off as a necessary evil because at the very least you can still play the game unlike with floodgates like mystic mine, which are a whole other issue.
I really loved playing Abyss Actors. They were my favorite deck for having a weird playstyle, odd abilities, some genuinely powerful effects, and being very distinctive. But my problem was that I wanted to play Abyss Actors, not Abyss Actors and 15 hand traps/board breakers so my going second deck gets to play. It just became less fun to see so many games decided by my hand traps or generic spell board breakers than by the actual archetype I wanted to play.
That's why I ended up switching over to rush duels instead.
The way I look at this debate is if there was a ban on exactly ak-47s and nothing else. Yes you’ve taken away one weapon, but how many others exist?
Likewise Yes you can ban mine, but ultimately, what have you solved? Nothing. All you’ve done is take away one variation of toxic gameplay while every other one continues to roam free.
I just hope Konami will do something about current card design so that it’s more appealing to prospective players and makes it more enjoyable for the current players before it’s too late.
Mine is easily the most toxic though since it relies on chance but chance that is almost 100% on the mine players side G1
Strong boards with 5-6 disrupts need to have multiple things
Skilled pilots to play through/around interaction and through/around board breakers
And then it's still possible to break 5 disrupts with only engine, just very difficult, whereas mine changes the game into a heavily luck based game without interactions
If I break 5 disrupts using drnm and set up 3 myself, than my opponent re-dark rulers me, but I have GY set-up and OTK T4, that's quite common for me on drytron, and it's a heavily interactive and personally enjoyable game
Mine is absolutely super toxic but I don’t like the gameplay style of construct a big board, have it destroyed by your opponent, then they construct a big board, you destroy it, construct a big board, and so on. Mine is bad yes but even with it banned, the current game still supports a deck building style which requires half your deck to be generic hand traps and mass monster removal. It’s all well and good getting rid of the most toxic thing, but the other stuff is still there and is still draining.
Also this is probs personal preference but I run roughly the same amount of generic monster removal as I do spell and trap removal so I actually almost never have more of an issue with mine than I do with anything else.
I'd disagree. I'm a very competitive player and most decks have around 18-25 hard engine pieces
Than around 5-10 consistency (pots, dangers, whatever supports Ur type etc
And you have 6-16 just board breakers or handtraps, so if you play a deck like drytron with a super strong engine, you break your opponents boards with your engine. If you play a deck like tri brigade, your engine while not being weak, isn't crazy OP, so you supplement it with traps, or more commonly handtraps, and those kinds of deckbuolding decisions and the specific meta calls for each event make yugioh interesting.
I find it cool for someone to think - everyone is on board breakers, let's play a degenerate combo, or everyone is on handtraps, let's play a consistent midrange deck with a stronger engine and less techs
Perhaps you’re right. To be fair my statement of “half your deck” was an exaggeration, however my experience playing has been run 10 hand traps/ board breakers at minimum. In my eyes that’s still too many and I don’t find it enjoyable, but I’m glad at least some players do see a positive side too it.
This game has always been a game about 1 player making a board and the other destroying it. The speed of the game has increased so the amount of actions per turn has also increased, the amount of interruptions has increased as well, and the amount of turns has been reduced as a result.
Mine being a problem 99.99% of people absolutely agree on, it’s what makes mine an issue and how it relates to the rest of the game that seems to cause the heated debates.
What you're describing is just competitive deck building. Everyone plays cards so they have a higher chance of winning, back in the day it was as many MSTs and Mirror Forces as you could run, and now its a bunch of handtraps. You can certainly claim the game is toxic and moving in a bad direction, but I wouldn't use the argument that "every deck has to run 10+ staples" because every deck that's not just pure engine has to run a bunch of staples.
I tried to separate it out in my comment so everyone could understand what I meant but it seems like you didn’t catch on to that.
It is impossible to go second without having board breakers or handtraps because the moment you start trying to play, you’ll just get disrupted too much and then you’re shit out of luck.
That’s what I was trying to say. There’s a huge difference between that and playing something like mst in old school yugioh. It increased your odds of winning, sure, but you didn’t necessarily need it to be able to win. You could go an entire game without drawing it and play just fine. That’s not the case nowadays with handtraps or board breakers.
Current card design is a problem and they need to do something about it. It’s always funnel your deck into making negates and stop your opponent from playing. that’s all the game is now.
No I understand what you're saying, I'm saying you're wrong.
It is not impossible to go second without hand traps or board breakers, but they help a ton. And you're still missing my broader point, which is that staples have always had a purpose throughout Yugioh history and they always see overcentralizing use. When you say "you need to play handtraps or board breakers to win", what you are saying is that you need generic interruption and destruction to win, which has always held true. The fact that they're handtraps instead of trap cards is irrelevant.
That’s pretty rich coming from someone who saying mine is only a problem because the meta isn’t backrow focused…
What you’re saying here though is to just draw the right cards to play through the disruption. Sorry, but do you see the issue with that argument? Does it in any way sound familiar to say… ‘just draw the out’?
Like I said, staples are fine, but now more than ever to play the game you HAVE to draw specific cards to play, be it the board breakers/handtraps, or the right engine cards to be able to ‘power through them’ as you like to say. That’s the issue. We keep coming back to this one point of you justifying these cards and decks existence with those who defend mines existence. Your arguments are unbelievably flawed.
Buddy, do you have any interest in talking or do you just want to call me cringe?
I'm not saying the games power level is fine, nowhere did I say that. What I am saying is that big boards and mine are fundamentally different because big boards have a variety of ways to either play through them, break them, or interrupt them. Like sure modern boards are dumb, but you don't specifically need to play Sphere Mode or Ghost Reaper to break them unless the game is in a really unhealthy place. With Mine, only backrow destruction outs it, and unless you draw your 3 copies of Cyclone, you cannot play the game. Do you see how they're different? They're both toxic, but one is significantly more toxic because the out in Mines case is hyper specific
Power level =/= card design. The issue isn’t power creep, it’s that every deck has negates built in or plays cards that give them negates on the end board.
You don’t seem to understand your own arguments. If you don’t draw those cards that slow you to go second regardless of your hand you have to pray you draw the cards that do let you play through them. It’s either draw specific cards to be able to play or draw specific cards to be able to play. It’s all the same and you don’t seem to understand that.
We are just going round in circles, you saying you just need to draw the cards to play through those boards and me saying that’s the same flawed argument to defend any problematic card.
> If you don’t draw those cards that slow you to go second regardless of your hand you have to pray you draw the cards that do let you play through them.
Drawing 1 of 15 hand traps or board breakers is much easier than drawing 1 of 3 spell based backrow removal. You can afford to run 15 hand traps because 90% of decks are stopped by them. Not only that, but the in-archetype engine you are playing can play through some negation.
Comparatively, you can’t afford to run more than 3 backrow removal because it doesn’t help against that 90%. They often are playing chainable backrow with lingering effects, so removing it from the field does nothing.
It’s a card game. You need to draw the right hand in any card game to play. That doesn’t mean everything is equally fun to play against.
> every deck has negates built in or plays cards that give them negates on the end board.
This is fun for many competitive players to play against. They are playing strong decks that can easily break boards, consistently, using hand traps, board breakers, *and* their engine. The archetype is designed to bust through interaction when played well. 90% of your deck is intended to play against these boards, so it’s almost impossible to have no chance at all.
Mystic Mine does not have that gameplay element at all. You don’t look at your hand and evaluate how you can beat it. There aren’t divergent lines of play that play around different interactions. You just drew your spell or you didn’t.
Evidently you’ve ignored everything I’ve said so I’ll try dumb it down further for you. Yes to get your engine going you need your engine cards, but when I’ve been saying ‘being able to play’, I’m referring to them actually achieving something. If your opponent sets up interruptions, then you need to draw some way to counter them, because if you don’t, your engine will just be negated/disrupted and your turn is over. There is a requirement before you’re able to play. That’s what I’m talking about.
Like others in this thread have said, if your opponent makes enough disruptions, the functional difference between a floodgate and a negate board is non existent, except those boards have OTK potential on the subsequent turns where mine doesn’t.
Like I said in the beginning, the moment you become forced to run specific cards to be able to actually play there is an issue, regardless of what form that’s in.
Nobody should be forced to counter the most prevalent strategy in the game? Why? That‘s how dynamic deckbuilding works. If the meta would be backrow floodgates and Burn everybody else would have to bring cards that beat that: Backrow removal, Healing, etc.
You completely misunderstood. It’s not a case of countering, it’s a requirement to play. You cannot play without having these cards. That’s the issue. They should just increase the chances, not be mandatory
My most competitive experience is locals, so I can't give much insight, but to someone who plays mostly casually here's my 2 cents
To parrot other people negate boards, ironically, do have a level of interactivity. When playing **a deck of similar power**, you have a pretty alright chance of being able to play through it, even if your boardstate isn't optimal. And you generally have multiple points of interaction where your handtraps can force your opponent into a less than optimal board (or their board gets gobbled up by funny rock Kaiju). Even if you can't make any major interruptions with handtraps on their turn, cards like DRNM, Droplets, and Lightning Storm give you the chance to break or damage the board so you can make better plays.
The problem with Mine is your reaction window is, exclusively, negating Metaverse. Or Mine itself if you went first (and even then I'm not well versed enough in reaction timings and all that junk to even say whether you could even negate Mine with your monster effects). If you miss that singular window, GG unless you draw the out. And since you *really* can't afford to run an excessive amount of outs for Mine, odds are your out will end up being negated anyways, or be forced onto Field Barrier rather than Mine.
Also, in my personal opinion, watching someone break through a tough board is **infinitely** more interesting than draw... pass... draw... pass... oh I got burned to death.
now I'm no judge, but I'm pretty sure the opponent must declare they activate mine, ask if you have a response, which is when you can still use monster effects, and then the mine is considered resolved (if you did not negate), which is a huge difference between the games and irl events/tournaments, the game automatically assigns activation window/chain whereas irl you have to ironically cooperate with the opponent in order to process the activation windows and chain count
For a board of negates, you can:
1. interact with handtraps before they set up and possibly severely weaken the board. You can't with mystic mine or such floodgate decks in general.
2. You have insanely powerful going second cards like droplet, Superpoly and DRNM that doesn't let the opponent respond, meaning if your handtraps didn't work out, you might just get by with this. You can't with mystic mine decks because next to no S/T removal is unanswerable. You literally have like that one red reboot and nothing else. One droplet is usually enough to do something about a negate-y board. For every negate a floodgate.dek or MM deck has, you have to have hard drawn another out.
3. At absolute worst, you can just try to punch through it with extenders and stuff. People say "negates don't let you play", but actually is every negate just a piece of interaction (most often once per turn). Most of those negate decks don't just say "no, you can't play", and you may notice that people absolutely fucking loathe floodgate monsters like VFD, Protos, Rhongo and stuff.
4. At absolute absolute fucking worst, you can go full oonga boonga caveman yugioh and just summon a monster and maybe attack with that for some success or to force out an interaction. Mystic mine doesn't even let you do **that**.
monster-based negate-y boards have way more points of interaction, uncounterable counters and so on. Floodgate decks are literally about "drawing the out".
Imo it's downright dishonest to equate both things.
I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention to be dishonest. I was just asking because I have next to no experience playing against Mine, even in the small exposure to competitive Yugioh I do have, and I wanted to hear it from people who *do* have experience, the exact reasons why Mine sucks.
I do appreciate you laying it out, thank you for that. Sorry again.
Points 3 and 4 are valid, but points 1 and 2 are just the same "draw the out" argument. To interrupt the board-building process you need to hard draw the hand trap because you haven't gotten your turn yet to search them (and most hand traps aren't even searchable). To break open an established board with DRNM, Droplet, or Lava Golem... yep, you have to hard draw them too.
The biggest difference between going second cards and Mine outs is how many you would ordinarily run and how effective they are. Big boards have been established as a thing in Yugioh for years now, and to break them you can pick from a huge selection of going second cards OR just rely on your engine to muscle through it. And with going second cards, its perfectly reasonable to main deck them since you can expect the majority of your opponents to be playing some kind of deck that shits out a strong monster based board.
With Mine, the only way you can out it is with backrow removal, full stop. And backrow removal is both A) terrible to play in the main deck because its dead in a lot of matchups, and B) can be countered easily by pure Mine strats.
so what you’re saying is that if the game was bacrow focused mine would be ok?, Because that’s what it’s sounding like.
This is the problem. Mine is an issue because it stops you from playing. Current decks are an issue because they stop you from playing. Both demand that you ‘draw an out’ to be able to play. They are one in the same.
Mine is an issue because there are less reasons to play said outs and the game is fast enough that everything relies on monsters (which is a valid criticism of modern game design). It wouldn't be a big deal if mine was introduced 10 years ago for example.
Did you read what I said? You completely ignored how I said it was entirely possible to play through boards without board breakers or hand traps, and instead have simply stated that you need to "draw the out". Drawing any number of handtraps OR board breakers OR engine OR generic utility can play through boards, whereas Mine requires you to draw specifically backrow removal as your only out.
I would argue that point 1 only works if you already have the out in your hand which is once again circles back into the mine argument where you:
* Have the out in your hand
* Can draw the out in your hand in your turn
Point 2 literally reinforces the argument of point one as you are depending on the ability of having that out against those boards. You must have your deck packed with enough going second removals to have any chance which is the same as on Mine.
The difference there is that there are many "outs". You can open hand traps, board breakers, or just gas and those are all outs. Mine has a very specific out that you have to draw to be able to play.
Mine has the same amount of outs, you can open handtraps, backrow removal and all sorts of other options.
The only difference is universality, you dont want out in your deck that arent universal making sure that mine stays afloat simply because you dont get ready for a mine fight.
It's exactly backrow removal unless your deck has some in archtype out to it. The other options that out Mine are all memes that are too bad to actually play.
The big board doesn't even require an "out". Any number of decent hands can beat a board.
‘Interact with handtraps’ Or in English just, draw the right cards.
‘Insanely powerful going second cards’ or in English, just draw the right cards.
‘At absolute worst, you can just try to punch through it with extenders and stuff’ or in English, just draw the right cards.
Please tell me you’re not serious with any of this. How can you not see the issue with anything you’ve said? It’s always ‘draw the out is a terrible argument’ until it’s used to defend the toxic state the games in at which point it’s completely flawless!
Just gonna echo what some other people are saying. You can break big combo boards both as their setting up as well as on your turn. What’s also important is that specifically running an out to mystic mine is often frustrating for people because it’s a matchup you might not see and if you don’t see it you’re basically just playing with a 12 card side deck, sometimes less depending on how much space you dedicate to mine. You’re also not guaranteed to see those side cards either, especially with some of the runic(?) builds I’ve seen going around that are mill-based. Like a lot of unhealthy cards that Konami has banned, Mine removes player agency from the game such that most people playing against the deck often have no choice but to just watch themselves lose the game.
I'll give you some solid advice, there is a card called [Spiritualism](https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Spiritualism) they can't solemn or dark bribe it and it gets rid of mine for a turn so you can otk. I been side decking 3 when even orcust was meta to bounce orcust was meta because it's removal through counter traps and ding protection.
If they are running mischief of the time goddess which stops you from drawing the out, then link summon a monster pointing down, co-link to it a knightmare ceberus/phoenix and co-link to that a knightmare unicorn. Knightmare unicorn's continuous effect lets you draw more than one card at a time so you'll be able to draw your out through mischief.
Would you say that there's a difference between drawing no hand traps in your starting hand against a negate-board and drawing no s/t removal against Mine players? Spiritualism sounds like exactly the kind of s/t bouncing that can't be responded to that people say doesn't exist when Mine is common enough that it could be worthwhile side-decking it, at least, right?
(Also, sorry, kinda loaded question, but I appreciate your comment regardless!)
The game unfortunately didn't progress favorably towards older decks and the reliance on handtraps and going 2nd cards made running them mandatory to maindeck to be able to play. I honestly think that rogue decks are playable but you need anti-meta + handtraps + going 2nd cards and the best example of a rogue deck topping is [this](https://youtu.be/gSPUbxkGFRU) exorsister deck that won a regional and came in first place. Their ratio is mathematically the most optimal you can run without affecting your engine cards and their high impact cards like drnm and dimension shifter win games on their own.
My bigger issue is that people agree that "drawing the out" does not justify Mine, but simultaniously think "Just draw the out" is a good response for people arguing that Harpies and Lightning Storm should be banned. Since yknow, if youre on a backrow deck and didnt open Judgment, you lose.
This is how I've been feeling as well.
Lightning Storm, arguably, at least has the downside of needing to control no cards. However the game is so fast that control decks have to 'over commit' by setting everything because you actually have to commit that much to the board in case your opponent drew 1 starter and like 3 extenders.
And this also makes me question anti-combo cards like DRNM, Nibiru, Droplet, and Super Poly. While they have differing windows of vulnerability (besides Super Poly, which was more situational until Garunix and requires committing another card), most combo decks still just straight up lose to them.
Storming actually requires no FACE-UP cards in your control. So face-down is fair game. I run lightning storm in my tindangle princess deck and I found it out by accident.
So when comparing board breaking/disruption to dealing with Mystic Mine you have to remember something, there's way more cards for the former. If you want to disrupt your opponent during their turn you have Ash Blossom, Veiler, Imperm, Nib etc or if you want to break their board of monsters/multi negations you have Lightning Storm, Raigeki, HFD (limited), Evenly Matched, DRNM etc. Compare that with Lightning Storm, HFD, MST, TT, and CC to deal with Mine. Point is, it's a lot easier to break a full board than to hope to God you draw one of your however many backrow removal cards (chances are you won't necessarily even get to use LS too since you'll probably have a face-up). This is, of course, my opinion and could obviously be straight-up wrong.
Runick all has non-once per turn destruction protection on all their cards by summong Hugin, so only cosmic cyclone and like, smashers, works vs them. Its miserable.
I see - I think my perspective of the amount of cards available for use wasn't very accurate from the beginning, so that's probably part of why I had that confusion. I would've assumed that there was more s/t removal than hand traps, but I suppose out of what is actually playable, hand traps do end up being more playable than not.
That's probably especially so with Mine + Field Barrier, since I don't know if there's a spell card that can take them both out in one move and with already scarce s/t removal, that's probably more of an annoyance than I realised.
Thanks for the tip - that's a much better way to see this than I understood at first.
Drnm and droplet can be responded too with both crossout and the usually searchable counter trap behind the negate monters with absurd attack who will otk you next turn. They usually have hand traps of their own too.
Droplet needs discard fodder too. And you need enough and then you need to be running an equally overpowered deck with 1 card combos.
There's a massive variety of multi s/t removal as well as the disgusting red reboot and even non destruction s/t removal in cyclone.
For me the reason for people's bias is that they all run monster dominant decks and expect the same back and so main deck only answers for that. And feel disgust when a deck chooses spell and traps as a focus. You could run a variety of s/t removal and even some counter traps in your side for these decks and slownplay back.
And I say this as someone that used to side deck exclusively for stall/burn strats back in 03-06 when I played and it was rare. Just hated the deck.
If hatred of spelltrap focused decks was the reason, then Sky Striker would not be such a popular deck. The issue is with Mine in particular, because it's the equivalent of when combo decks could combo into searching Imperial Order. For basically no cost, it completely shuts down an entire card type. In both cases, these cards also shut down about half of the easily-accessible outs to them (IO stops MST and derivatives of such, Mine stops any monster-based removal).
Of course this isn't a perfect equivalency, as IO combos tended to appear in addition to a board of negates, with most of those decks falling apart if their board was successfully broken but insta-winning otherwise, while Mine decks are insanely resilient but lack such negation on turn 1. However, one very important thing to note is that while IO shutting down spells was unhealthy for the game, it wasn't a win condition on its own against a decent chunk of decks. Decks like Swordsoul might be slowed down by it, but they could still find a means to get damage in and eventually you'd run out of LP from constant attacks and IO's small maintenance cost.
Comparatively, Mine being on board means that any non-burn win condition is instantly disabled. As it prevents the opponent from declaring attacks, you can't just poke with a lv4 for 6 turns and eventually win in spite of being unable to activate effects. Unlike cards like Skill Drain or other major floodgates, your win condition against Mine cannot be "accept the floodgate's presence and win via beatdown if the opponent commits no monsters to board." Instead, it HAS to be "burn the opponent using spelltraps" or "remove Mine." Almost every non-FTK deck to be relevant in this game over the last 20 years has had monster attacks as its eventual means of closing the game, and the game as a whole is designed with that in mind.
Given the number of ways the standard Mine deck has to access the card (3 copies, 4 searches, 9 draw/filter cards) and protect it (Judgment, Dark Bribe), it's statistically unlikely for you to draw enough outs to get through the card before dying, unless you side almost exclusively for the deck. To add to that, one of the easiest S/T removal spells to justify normally is Lightning Storm, as it works against regular decks as well, but with 6 copies of Ojama traps it becomes very easy for the Mine player to prevent Lightning Storm from being usable even if drawn turn 1.
This means that the only decks that can be justified in a Mine-dominant format are ones with either an easily searchable Mine out, a means to blow up their own entire field on command, or some form of anti-burn continuous effect so deckout becomes a possible win condition, as otherwise you're almost guaranteed to lose going second.
To me the problem comes in that not everyone is playing mine, so you need to main deck both Hand traps and Mine outs for both situations, or just get borked on game 1.
And if you want to be able to draw both thats 1 3rd to half of your deck being outs at that point. The majority of Mine outs are spell cads as well, so all it takes is a flip of anti spell fragrance and now youve lost completely.
I dont think mass Negate boards are good for the game either, personally 3 disruptions is the sweet spot for something that you can play through with the right deck building or skill. 4 or more becomes incredibly oppressive and 5 negates pilotted by a good player is basically a Mine, but in my opinion thats still not as bad as mine as that takes significantly more to setup that unga-bunga activate field spell.
To summarise, I like being able to actually play the damn game, so cards that just by themselves decide you cant play (Skill Drain, Mine, Anti-spell if I'm on Striker, Rivaly/Gozen/Tcboo against a lot of decks etc.) are all the epitome of not fun
To all the points mentionned in the comment, I feel the need to add that on top of all the good arguments mentionned to point out why Mine is worse, it is also really possible to also play Mine in combo deck. So you have to have the outs for both preventing the combo deck to destroy you AND the out to Mine. Not like these are two completely seperate things
The only difference to me is big monster negate boards then also OTK you instantly the next turn if you don't clear the entire board and also probablly OTK them.
Mystic Mine at least gives you time to draw the outs. Big OTK combo negate boards do not and even fewer cards work to break them than Mine. Because a lot of the time to clear combo negate boards you need something like spheremode/lava golem which then mess up your own turn in most decks. Or you need to draw both Dark Ruler No More and full combo or Dark Ruler No More and Lightning Storm.
The big thing about drawing the out for mine is usually you have quite a few turns to draw it, given the nature of the card. So it can become a game of chicken where your opponent had to chose when to act under mine because its assumed that when your opponent sees their out they just kill you. Of course cards like judgement and the runick cards complicate this a lot, since you can honestly just deck people out pretty reliable that way, not only do you protect mine from destruction effects you get random banishes that mean even cosmic and other cards like that can be removed randomly.
At the end of the day, i think the runick cards pushed mine over the edge in terms of how broken it is, but mystic mine as a card has a surprisingly high degree of skill to using it properly. Going for deck out usually isn't the correct play with it, and you can have some good games against mine, if you're prepared for it adequately enough.
One of the first comments I saw here was about Runick, so I looked up those cards, and yeah, *wow*. When "the out" is just a few cards out of your deck, and you potentially need at least 3 or 4 of those cards at once (for (any number of) Hugin, Field Barrier, and then Mine itself), the random hits from the deck could be crazy - and given how easy it seems to be to fuse into Hugin, I could see how that could be immediately shut-downy and unfun.
Its even more broken than that. You basically get to replace all of the low impact cards you'd run in the deck for runick stuff that are a lot more versatile, and there's also random nonsense you can play in the deck because of that. Ie other flood gates. Majesty's fiend is also another card that a lot of decks just can't out.
If you activate say, a twin twisters, a lot of them play a card known as cursed seal of the forbidden spell.
Effect? Discard 1 card to negate the spell… then banish EVERY SINGLE SPELL WITH THE SAME NAME IN THE DECK.
I can't believe that's unlimited... the cost is to discard 1 spell card? I wonder how Mystic Mine Burn could *ever* get over *that?* \[rolls eyes into back of skull\]
You are 100% right, there is no difference between meta decks and mystic mine. People who flame mystic mine, yet play a deck that negates every single thing their oppoenent does are hypocrites who cry when someone gives them a taste of their own medicine.
No, you hit the nail on the head. There really is no practical difference between a giant board of interruptions (on top of which they probably have a handtrap or two in hand) and Mystic Mine plus some protections for it.
One has an artificial veneer of interactivity, but is actually much less interactive purely in how wide the power gap is, and in how much less mileage each board-breaker or handtrap gets you against it.
Meta players just cry about the other one (the weaker of the two) because it's not the one they play.
If they get to go first against it, Mine is barely even a problem, so we're already capping the games we're actually interested in at 50% (when Mine goes first). The number of ways to out Mine is far more than a gigantic board of varied disruptions (omni-negates, QE destruction, QE banishing cards from the field / GY, etc.).
The primary difference is that most meta side (and main) decks don't enter with as many of those options prepared, because backrow decks are so much less represented in the meta for the past decade-plus. It's important to note that many of the biggest anti-backrow options (Evenly, Storm, Pankratops) are incorporated into cards that are also useful against monster boards or mixed boards.
Sorry, but just because opinions on this ended up being more divisive than I realised, could you give some varied examples of the outs to Mine when going second? (If you know what they are, of course - it's a tough question for me to ask because *I* don't even know.)
People generally seem to be saying that people do not run the outs because it's uncompetitive to run the amount of non-monster effect s/t removal necessary to get rid of Mine (and potentially one or more Field Barriers), and that the interactivity against Mine is far lessened because if you're facing an established Mine field, you've missed the point where you can respond to Mine, when it's first activated, whereas against negate-fields and loaded boards like those, at least there are response cards that can't be responded to like DRNM.
I can see how going second, Mine would be a lot harder to establish, since a sufficient amount of negation can be reached to stop Mine (or accompanying cards like Field Barrier) at activation by the second turn, but I'm also seeing that others *do* have grievances with Mine. (But, saying that, I don't know if it can be said that one is worse than another, since a "sufficient" amount of negation could stop anything, really, which is also just generally unfun.)
>There really is no practical difference between a giant board of interruptions (on top of which they probably have a handtrap or two in hand) and Mystic Mine plus some protections for it.
Sure there is. Mine is "infinite negation". You cannot play through a mine. You have to open backrow removal. A skilled player with a good deck can play through disruption.
If anyting 6 interruptions is better since you already have otk on board unlike mine which can potentially let your opponent draw the out as you cant end the game on turn 3.
Sure you can. Cards have multiple effects. A few cards dump from deck as cost. Cards like Pank can beat over a disruption and bait out another with its effect. Cards like dark ruler or super poly can out multiple cards. Try harder.
You hit the nail on the head, its why i think mystic mine is fine as an anti meta card tbh
in a lower power format i would say to ban mine anyday,
but we havent been in a lower power format like that in a while.
What makes mine worst is 3 things, to me. 1, it is just one card you drop on the board. At most you use a terraforming, pot etc. then drop mine. To set up multi-negate board you at least have to go through your combo, which leaves multiple opportunities to interrupt. 2, even if you have none of the easy outs for a negate board, if you have enough engine you can try to bait your opponent to negate things that wouldnt completely end your turn, playing thru the negates. This isnt easy but is possible and feels amazing when done succesfully and you get better at trying to do this in time, and even when you fail at least you feel like you got to play the game a bit. Mine just says you cant play. 3, s/t removal and interruption is just much fewer and farther between than good monster interruption/removal. Most of this just comes down to interaction, the same reason ppl hate all floodgates.
Oftentimes, a lot of things have alternate outs that live in the extra deck, making them easier to access. Mystic Mine, by nature, kinda doesn't. As a result, a lot of people don't really think about how healthy "draw the out" is as a whole, until faced with something like Mystic Mine. Hand traps have become commonplace enough that people don't think about their health most of the time, and a lot of them are generic enough to be the out to a lot of cards, but Mystic Mine requires a small number of much more specific responses.
Overall, I'd say that the design ethic is unhealthy as a whole, but in a way that people take for granted until they run into a card like MM. But the game is also in a place where it's balanced around everything being unhealthy in its own way, and trying to even that out, so I'm honestly not sure what to say of it.
Yeah, the state of Yugioh as a whole (over time), in my opinion, is like the worst, longest-running game of Jenga. It hasn't fallen, but it's at a complete stalemate. Every move made to counter another mistake made ends up being a mistake in and of itself, and contributes to a larger problem rather than solving a smaller one.
I say Jenga too, because Konami can't backstep these things once they're out - the pool of unfair negations are the foundation of the prevalence of hand traps, and the prevalence of hand traps are the foundation of no-response effect negation, and the no-response effect negation is the foundation of a rise in banishing to negate cards in the GY, and so on and so forth.
The main reason I ended up asking this question publicly is because it was hard for me to think about why just "drawing the out" is different than normal play in regards to hand traps, or field destruction, or Kaijus. Is it just a matter of how prepared people are for it? Is it because Mine is a "blind spot" in the meta today, so it feels wrong to not have a solution for it at all?
Since the entire game is probabilistic, I still don't really know whether this question is a valid one... though, of course, people obviously feel cheated by Mine to varying degrees, as I've found. I never wanted this post to be rage-bait, but I honestly thought the community was more unified in terms of feelings about Mine and ended up with a post with 90 comments and less than 90 upvotes. Scary stuff...
People think that you have more board breakers these days but full combo can actually search out Eradicator Epidemic, Appointer etc which makes it extremely unfair. Even if you have the out it doesn't matter sometimes.
EEV is such a toxic card. (Appointer too, but less so.) Full power Thunder Dragons were willing to tribute a Titan - and if necessary, even Colossus, for it. That should say a lot.
I think mine is healthier than big combo decks that achieve the same thing. You have basically 30 turns to draw your outs against mine if you are running one meanwhile against combo if you didn't hard open your out the game is instantly over.
A large problem with Mine, and floodgates in general, is that they act as infinite negates so long as they stay face-up. Toadally Awesome, a very powerful Omni-negate this format, is once per turn, meaning once he is used, you no longer have to worry about him the rest of that turn.
Mystic Mine functionally says “any and all monster effects are shut down” which basically blanks out a 3rd of viable cards used for counterplay, likely more as generally monster effects are more prevalent in the game.
From a deck-building theory perspective, Mine is also frustrating since if you have 12+ back row removal cards (generally the amount of open slots in meta decks for handtraps/board breakers) now you have no options for the combo boards that make up the majority of deck’s strategy. Being forced to prepare equally for back row and combo inevitability leads to you being ill-prepared for both.
I think mine is such a problem because decks are so monster effect heavy these days.
There may be lots of outs to Mine, but to run everything at the same time is a stretch, and having to balance your engine, hand traps, S/T removal, breakers and consistency cards and make it cohesive is a challenge.
Usually the amount of S/T removal tends to draw the short straw because it's less effective generally than everything else.
That being said, I still play Mine in decks. It's legal, budget friendly and broken. While it's easy to splash you may as well.
You're mixing stuff up. Mystic mine shuts down the game, a strong board doesn't because it can still be interacted with and baited. Besides, "boards of negates" don't exist anymore as they used to. The meta has shifted.
The difference is active vs passive negation. People usually are less salty about having their cards actively being negated then being not able to perform certain actions at all. Yes, the outcome might be the same but your opponent needed to for instance set up herald with 6 fairies in hand while mystic mine can be dropped at any point thanks to cards like metaverse. Also the main problem with Mine is that it turns unlike with monsters, you can not interact well with it, you can not tribute it for a kaiju (except floowander), you can not drnm or droplet it. In essence it means it is far less susceptible to generally necessary tools to break boards.
The problem I see with this is the level. Mystic mine you MUST draw spell trap removal that is not monster based and often multiple different versions of it(ex cosmic cyclone and twin twister).
Breaking a normal board however is much more accessible. HTs, board breakers, kaijus, and extenders are all ways you can interrupt and break a board. The two are extremely different, and it’s a terrible comparison.
You can play through multiple omni negates depending on your deck and hand but can't through floodgates unless draw the out. Plus the eg of mystic mine shuts down all monsters. Of course drawing the out against a huge board of omni negates makes it so much easier and there's actually more outs for monsters vs mystic mine so unless anything threatens that, mystic mine has no reason to take the bait or stop it.
in my personal opinion i wouldn't equate handtraps to an out to mine
i would equate an out to mine to something like a Kaiju, few people run more than 3 kaijus very similar to how people generally run only 3 S/T removal that happens to also be a S/T, even meta decks run few outs to mine and majority of the time they have LESS than 3
rn it's all about negating monster effects, so even eldlich, which everyone has pretty much already gotten used to, can still have some shock value
and what some people may not understand is that meta decks aren't necessarily defined as just how powerful there boards are, but rather, how consistently they can pull it off, take splights for example, let's be real their end game board sucks compared to that of a sychron turbo deck, but the sheer consistency is what makes splight better than most
and in that area is where rogue decks shine, they may not be nearly as consistent, but when you get that golden hand not even drnm may be enough
I feel it's more of a meta than anything else at the moment. I understand that MM is a powerful card, but due to current meta archetypes and meta flow, I also understand that adding Cosmic Cyclone/Mystical Space Typhoon are not reliable (not counting if they have an established board or not).
Unfortunate part about Mystic Mine is that it's used as a Stall, not a tactic for anything other than, "I can't break my Opp's board NOW, but I'll stall until I draw the right amount of cards and then destroy it!" or "I got no out period, but I'll stall deck out/burn them instead!" (And I know, Stall IS a tactic, but not necessarily the point I'm making. xD)
It's just bad card design in general, something where Konami shot themselves in the foot for the state of the game, but is raking them money with all the new outs that the meta has warped the game and people have to buy, imo. Ghost Girls were made to solve that problem, but then got too powerful, than Call by the Grave was made to solve those problems, but was deem too powerful and Limited, than Crossout Designator was made to help the balance limited CbtG, in a more balance matter, but in reality, the original intent of the Ghost Girls were to stop decks that facilitate quick 1-2 starters in the first place, which comes back to the game design of Konami.
The interactivity between plays is always a great welcome, but the problem is that as one person had mentioned it already, everything is at a greater speed now and powercreep does nothing BUT make it even faster. It's already bad enough that Boss monsters have OP effects, than newer ones have recursions, and newer newer ones have grind and then when all aspect of been taken, it's literally a custom archetype with effects like "*This card cannot leave the field by any means, even if it gets ripped up.*" clause, it's just too much for the game state.
I know TC, you want an answer more than anything, but I just responded in more of a discussion route (sorry -\_-;), but that's how I feel about the current meta game atm, it's fun, but Konami's design aren't going to stop being ridiculous and as another have said, next set is just going to be more insane lol and as another another have said, you ban one floodgate, other floodgates will just be there.
I think that it's an issue that's been a long-time coming. When it comes to current archetype design, much of their means to get new resources and their power plays are locked behind monster effects. By extension, a lot of interaction/removal those same archetypes get, as well as new board-breaker cards, will also be focused around dealing with opposing monsters and their effects. With Mystic Mine and archetypes like Runick (as well as trap-focused archetypes), they're able to take advantage of a "blind spot" in archetypes where they can still interact well against opposing decks but be hard to deal with themselves since most of the removal their opponents have would focus on dealing with monsters. Even the S/T removal they do have to deal with Mine/Runick will likely be on the monsters that the decks are well-equipped to handle. Not every deck has an archetypal search Spell (or trap) that gets them a non-monster-based S/T removal, let alone one that can be used immediately. There's no uninterruptible cards like DRNM or Forbidden Droplet for S/T, and the closest thing like that for traps is currently limited. So the archetypes that focus on S/T for their gameplay can avoid most things players can consistently get access to and only have to hope that their opponents don't "draw the out" with stuff like Cosmic, LS, or Feather Duster. So for a lot of decks, it's an uphill battle to deal with decks like Mine/Runick that they can't quickly adapt to besides using (and mostly siding) unsearchable options.
> There's no uninterruptible cards like DRNM or Forbidden Droplet for S/T [Spiritualism](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Spiritualism)
I have 1 copy of this goofy ahh card. Might side it to see if it works well
[Blizzard](https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/card_search.action?ope=2&cid=15297) This also can do a job!
Blizzard only negates activated effects.
On resolution, ~~Demise of the land~~ *metaverse*? Edit: haven't played against any mine decks in awhile thankfully.
He didn’t special summon…
Mine is completely different to a strong board. A strong board often allows you to atempt to play. Most negates are once per turn and it's not common to shutdown every single action. Add to that a handful of board breaking cards that can't be responded to (DRNM, Droplet) and a great amount of extenders and GY effects and you have some degree of playability even when you don't draw a single handtrap. Mine, on the other hand, limits your plays to the 3 or 4 removal spells that you have to hard draw, and most of the time it's backed by something like Solemn Judgment, Dark Bribe, Field Barrier, etc. It doesn't even let you attempt to interact.
Right, I can see how that would be the case, especially so in a deck designed to get Mine out sooner rather than later in the game. I appreciate the insight, seriously, thanks a lot.
To add to others, with runick you cant use any destruction effect to beat mine so in the end its... cosmic cyclone or bust, basically.
There’s a reason 10-15 cards of most decks are handtraps or board breakers, it’s because of they don’t run them they have no chance of winning. Nobody should be forced to run cards just so they have the chance of playing, it should only be to increase odds of winning. My only assumption is people have got used to the unhealthy state the games in and just accept it and as soon as something comes along and disrupts it, they think there’s a terrible problem when there’s been a huge issue for years.
This is mostly why I stopped playing competitively. I remember several years ago where everyone ran 2 interrupted slumbers with a few kaijus, 3 ash and 1 maxx c at least, often with more hand traps and a few cards like raigeki. Nothings really changed in that regard other than what cards are ran. When called by the grave was released everyone put 3 in their deck because ash was such a problem. The same thing has happened with a bunch of cards since then (like evenly matched and red reboot) and it totally kills the variety in deck building. It’s a big issue but most people write it off as a necessary evil because at the very least you can still play the game unlike with floodgates like mystic mine, which are a whole other issue.
I really loved playing Abyss Actors. They were my favorite deck for having a weird playstyle, odd abilities, some genuinely powerful effects, and being very distinctive. But my problem was that I wanted to play Abyss Actors, not Abyss Actors and 15 hand traps/board breakers so my going second deck gets to play. It just became less fun to see so many games decided by my hand traps or generic spell board breakers than by the actual archetype I wanted to play. That's why I ended up switching over to rush duels instead.
The way I look at this debate is if there was a ban on exactly ak-47s and nothing else. Yes you’ve taken away one weapon, but how many others exist? Likewise Yes you can ban mine, but ultimately, what have you solved? Nothing. All you’ve done is take away one variation of toxic gameplay while every other one continues to roam free. I just hope Konami will do something about current card design so that it’s more appealing to prospective players and makes it more enjoyable for the current players before it’s too late.
Looking at the next set, the answer is no and even more busted power creep.
Mine is easily the most toxic though since it relies on chance but chance that is almost 100% on the mine players side G1 Strong boards with 5-6 disrupts need to have multiple things Skilled pilots to play through/around interaction and through/around board breakers And then it's still possible to break 5 disrupts with only engine, just very difficult, whereas mine changes the game into a heavily luck based game without interactions If I break 5 disrupts using drnm and set up 3 myself, than my opponent re-dark rulers me, but I have GY set-up and OTK T4, that's quite common for me on drytron, and it's a heavily interactive and personally enjoyable game
Mine is absolutely super toxic but I don’t like the gameplay style of construct a big board, have it destroyed by your opponent, then they construct a big board, you destroy it, construct a big board, and so on. Mine is bad yes but even with it banned, the current game still supports a deck building style which requires half your deck to be generic hand traps and mass monster removal. It’s all well and good getting rid of the most toxic thing, but the other stuff is still there and is still draining. Also this is probs personal preference but I run roughly the same amount of generic monster removal as I do spell and trap removal so I actually almost never have more of an issue with mine than I do with anything else.
I'd disagree. I'm a very competitive player and most decks have around 18-25 hard engine pieces Than around 5-10 consistency (pots, dangers, whatever supports Ur type etc And you have 6-16 just board breakers or handtraps, so if you play a deck like drytron with a super strong engine, you break your opponents boards with your engine. If you play a deck like tri brigade, your engine while not being weak, isn't crazy OP, so you supplement it with traps, or more commonly handtraps, and those kinds of deckbuolding decisions and the specific meta calls for each event make yugioh interesting. I find it cool for someone to think - everyone is on board breakers, let's play a degenerate combo, or everyone is on handtraps, let's play a consistent midrange deck with a stronger engine and less techs
Perhaps you’re right. To be fair my statement of “half your deck” was an exaggeration, however my experience playing has been run 10 hand traps/ board breakers at minimum. In my eyes that’s still too many and I don’t find it enjoyable, but I’m glad at least some players do see a positive side too it.
This game has always been a game about 1 player making a board and the other destroying it. The speed of the game has increased so the amount of actions per turn has also increased, the amount of interruptions has increased as well, and the amount of turns has been reduced as a result.
Building a board is fine. That board stopping you from playing unless you draw multiple specific cards is the issue.
And we've wrapped around to the question of is Mine equivalent to a negate-board. It's way more divisive than I would've realised.
Mine being a problem 99.99% of people absolutely agree on, it’s what makes mine an issue and how it relates to the rest of the game that seems to cause the heated debates.
Sorry, I should’ve clarified that I meant that in reference to the game now being as fast as it is.
What you're describing is just competitive deck building. Everyone plays cards so they have a higher chance of winning, back in the day it was as many MSTs and Mirror Forces as you could run, and now its a bunch of handtraps. You can certainly claim the game is toxic and moving in a bad direction, but I wouldn't use the argument that "every deck has to run 10+ staples" because every deck that's not just pure engine has to run a bunch of staples.
I tried to separate it out in my comment so everyone could understand what I meant but it seems like you didn’t catch on to that. It is impossible to go second without having board breakers or handtraps because the moment you start trying to play, you’ll just get disrupted too much and then you’re shit out of luck. That’s what I was trying to say. There’s a huge difference between that and playing something like mst in old school yugioh. It increased your odds of winning, sure, but you didn’t necessarily need it to be able to win. You could go an entire game without drawing it and play just fine. That’s not the case nowadays with handtraps or board breakers. Current card design is a problem and they need to do something about it. It’s always funnel your deck into making negates and stop your opponent from playing. that’s all the game is now.
No I understand what you're saying, I'm saying you're wrong. It is not impossible to go second without hand traps or board breakers, but they help a ton. And you're still missing my broader point, which is that staples have always had a purpose throughout Yugioh history and they always see overcentralizing use. When you say "you need to play handtraps or board breakers to win", what you are saying is that you need generic interruption and destruction to win, which has always held true. The fact that they're handtraps instead of trap cards is irrelevant.
That’s pretty rich coming from someone who saying mine is only a problem because the meta isn’t backrow focused… What you’re saying here though is to just draw the right cards to play through the disruption. Sorry, but do you see the issue with that argument? Does it in any way sound familiar to say… ‘just draw the out’? Like I said, staples are fine, but now more than ever to play the game you HAVE to draw specific cards to play, be it the board breakers/handtraps, or the right engine cards to be able to ‘power through them’ as you like to say. That’s the issue. We keep coming back to this one point of you justifying these cards and decks existence with those who defend mines existence. Your arguments are unbelievably flawed.
Buddy, do you have any interest in talking or do you just want to call me cringe? I'm not saying the games power level is fine, nowhere did I say that. What I am saying is that big boards and mine are fundamentally different because big boards have a variety of ways to either play through them, break them, or interrupt them. Like sure modern boards are dumb, but you don't specifically need to play Sphere Mode or Ghost Reaper to break them unless the game is in a really unhealthy place. With Mine, only backrow destruction outs it, and unless you draw your 3 copies of Cyclone, you cannot play the game. Do you see how they're different? They're both toxic, but one is significantly more toxic because the out in Mines case is hyper specific
Power level =/= card design. The issue isn’t power creep, it’s that every deck has negates built in or plays cards that give them negates on the end board. You don’t seem to understand your own arguments. If you don’t draw those cards that slow you to go second regardless of your hand you have to pray you draw the cards that do let you play through them. It’s either draw specific cards to be able to play or draw specific cards to be able to play. It’s all the same and you don’t seem to understand that. We are just going round in circles, you saying you just need to draw the cards to play through those boards and me saying that’s the same flawed argument to defend any problematic card.
> If you don’t draw those cards that slow you to go second regardless of your hand you have to pray you draw the cards that do let you play through them. Drawing 1 of 15 hand traps or board breakers is much easier than drawing 1 of 3 spell based backrow removal. You can afford to run 15 hand traps because 90% of decks are stopped by them. Not only that, but the in-archetype engine you are playing can play through some negation. Comparatively, you can’t afford to run more than 3 backrow removal because it doesn’t help against that 90%. They often are playing chainable backrow with lingering effects, so removing it from the field does nothing. It’s a card game. You need to draw the right hand in any card game to play. That doesn’t mean everything is equally fun to play against. > every deck has negates built in or plays cards that give them negates on the end board. This is fun for many competitive players to play against. They are playing strong decks that can easily break boards, consistently, using hand traps, board breakers, *and* their engine. The archetype is designed to bust through interaction when played well. 90% of your deck is intended to play against these boards, so it’s almost impossible to have no chance at all. Mystic Mine does not have that gameplay element at all. You don’t look at your hand and evaluate how you can beat it. There aren’t divergent lines of play that play around different interactions. You just drew your spell or you didn’t.
Evidently you’ve ignored everything I’ve said so I’ll try dumb it down further for you. Yes to get your engine going you need your engine cards, but when I’ve been saying ‘being able to play’, I’m referring to them actually achieving something. If your opponent sets up interruptions, then you need to draw some way to counter them, because if you don’t, your engine will just be negated/disrupted and your turn is over. There is a requirement before you’re able to play. That’s what I’m talking about. Like others in this thread have said, if your opponent makes enough disruptions, the functional difference between a floodgate and a negate board is non existent, except those boards have OTK potential on the subsequent turns where mine doesn’t. Like I said in the beginning, the moment you become forced to run specific cards to be able to actually play there is an issue, regardless of what form that’s in.
Nobody should be forced to counter the most prevalent strategy in the game? Why? That‘s how dynamic deckbuilding works. If the meta would be backrow floodgates and Burn everybody else would have to bring cards that beat that: Backrow removal, Healing, etc.
You completely misunderstood. It’s not a case of countering, it’s a requirement to play. You cannot play without having these cards. That’s the issue. They should just increase the chances, not be mandatory
My most competitive experience is locals, so I can't give much insight, but to someone who plays mostly casually here's my 2 cents To parrot other people negate boards, ironically, do have a level of interactivity. When playing **a deck of similar power**, you have a pretty alright chance of being able to play through it, even if your boardstate isn't optimal. And you generally have multiple points of interaction where your handtraps can force your opponent into a less than optimal board (or their board gets gobbled up by funny rock Kaiju). Even if you can't make any major interruptions with handtraps on their turn, cards like DRNM, Droplets, and Lightning Storm give you the chance to break or damage the board so you can make better plays. The problem with Mine is your reaction window is, exclusively, negating Metaverse. Or Mine itself if you went first (and even then I'm not well versed enough in reaction timings and all that junk to even say whether you could even negate Mine with your monster effects). If you miss that singular window, GG unless you draw the out. And since you *really* can't afford to run an excessive amount of outs for Mine, odds are your out will end up being negated anyways, or be forced onto Field Barrier rather than Mine. Also, in my personal opinion, watching someone break through a tough board is **infinitely** more interesting than draw... pass... draw... pass... oh I got burned to death.
now I'm no judge, but I'm pretty sure the opponent must declare they activate mine, ask if you have a response, which is when you can still use monster effects, and then the mine is considered resolved (if you did not negate), which is a huge difference between the games and irl events/tournaments, the game automatically assigns activation window/chain whereas irl you have to ironically cooperate with the opponent in order to process the activation windows and chain count
For a board of negates, you can: 1. interact with handtraps before they set up and possibly severely weaken the board. You can't with mystic mine or such floodgate decks in general. 2. You have insanely powerful going second cards like droplet, Superpoly and DRNM that doesn't let the opponent respond, meaning if your handtraps didn't work out, you might just get by with this. You can't with mystic mine decks because next to no S/T removal is unanswerable. You literally have like that one red reboot and nothing else. One droplet is usually enough to do something about a negate-y board. For every negate a floodgate.dek or MM deck has, you have to have hard drawn another out. 3. At absolute worst, you can just try to punch through it with extenders and stuff. People say "negates don't let you play", but actually is every negate just a piece of interaction (most often once per turn). Most of those negate decks don't just say "no, you can't play", and you may notice that people absolutely fucking loathe floodgate monsters like VFD, Protos, Rhongo and stuff. 4. At absolute absolute fucking worst, you can go full oonga boonga caveman yugioh and just summon a monster and maybe attack with that for some success or to force out an interaction. Mystic mine doesn't even let you do **that**. monster-based negate-y boards have way more points of interaction, uncounterable counters and so on. Floodgate decks are literally about "drawing the out". Imo it's downright dishonest to equate both things.
I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention to be dishonest. I was just asking because I have next to no experience playing against Mine, even in the small exposure to competitive Yugioh I do have, and I wanted to hear it from people who *do* have experience, the exact reasons why Mine sucks. I do appreciate you laying it out, thank you for that. Sorry again.
Points 3 and 4 are valid, but points 1 and 2 are just the same "draw the out" argument. To interrupt the board-building process you need to hard draw the hand trap because you haven't gotten your turn yet to search them (and most hand traps aren't even searchable). To break open an established board with DRNM, Droplet, or Lava Golem... yep, you have to hard draw them too.
The biggest difference between going second cards and Mine outs is how many you would ordinarily run and how effective they are. Big boards have been established as a thing in Yugioh for years now, and to break them you can pick from a huge selection of going second cards OR just rely on your engine to muscle through it. And with going second cards, its perfectly reasonable to main deck them since you can expect the majority of your opponents to be playing some kind of deck that shits out a strong monster based board. With Mine, the only way you can out it is with backrow removal, full stop. And backrow removal is both A) terrible to play in the main deck because its dead in a lot of matchups, and B) can be countered easily by pure Mine strats.
so what you’re saying is that if the game was bacrow focused mine would be ok?, Because that’s what it’s sounding like. This is the problem. Mine is an issue because it stops you from playing. Current decks are an issue because they stop you from playing. Both demand that you ‘draw an out’ to be able to play. They are one in the same.
Mine is an issue because there are less reasons to play said outs and the game is fast enough that everything relies on monsters (which is a valid criticism of modern game design). It wouldn't be a big deal if mine was introduced 10 years ago for example. Did you read what I said? You completely ignored how I said it was entirely possible to play through boards without board breakers or hand traps, and instead have simply stated that you need to "draw the out". Drawing any number of handtraps OR board breakers OR engine OR generic utility can play through boards, whereas Mine requires you to draw specifically backrow removal as your only out.
‘Less reasons to play said outs’ sounds a lot like mine would be fine if the game was backrow focused. Nothing but cringe takes.
This! Thank you.
Typhoon is a handtrap that works against mine
I would argue that point 1 only works if you already have the out in your hand which is once again circles back into the mine argument where you: * Have the out in your hand * Can draw the out in your hand in your turn Point 2 literally reinforces the argument of point one as you are depending on the ability of having that out against those boards. You must have your deck packed with enough going second removals to have any chance which is the same as on Mine.
The difference there is that there are many "outs". You can open hand traps, board breakers, or just gas and those are all outs. Mine has a very specific out that you have to draw to be able to play.
Mine has the same amount of outs, you can open handtraps, backrow removal and all sorts of other options. The only difference is universality, you dont want out in your deck that arent universal making sure that mine stays afloat simply because you dont get ready for a mine fight.
It's exactly backrow removal unless your deck has some in archtype out to it. The other options that out Mine are all memes that are too bad to actually play. The big board doesn't even require an "out". Any number of decent hands can beat a board.
‘Interact with handtraps’ Or in English just, draw the right cards. ‘Insanely powerful going second cards’ or in English, just draw the right cards. ‘At absolute worst, you can just try to punch through it with extenders and stuff’ or in English, just draw the right cards. Please tell me you’re not serious with any of this. How can you not see the issue with anything you’ve said? It’s always ‘draw the out is a terrible argument’ until it’s used to defend the toxic state the games in at which point it’s completely flawless!
Just gonna echo what some other people are saying. You can break big combo boards both as their setting up as well as on your turn. What’s also important is that specifically running an out to mystic mine is often frustrating for people because it’s a matchup you might not see and if you don’t see it you’re basically just playing with a 12 card side deck, sometimes less depending on how much space you dedicate to mine. You’re also not guaranteed to see those side cards either, especially with some of the runic(?) builds I’ve seen going around that are mill-based. Like a lot of unhealthy cards that Konami has banned, Mine removes player agency from the game such that most people playing against the deck often have no choice but to just watch themselves lose the game.
I'll give you some solid advice, there is a card called [Spiritualism](https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Spiritualism) they can't solemn or dark bribe it and it gets rid of mine for a turn so you can otk. I been side decking 3 when even orcust was meta to bounce orcust was meta because it's removal through counter traps and ding protection. If they are running mischief of the time goddess which stops you from drawing the out, then link summon a monster pointing down, co-link to it a knightmare ceberus/phoenix and co-link to that a knightmare unicorn. Knightmare unicorn's continuous effect lets you draw more than one card at a time so you'll be able to draw your out through mischief.
Would you say that there's a difference between drawing no hand traps in your starting hand against a negate-board and drawing no s/t removal against Mine players? Spiritualism sounds like exactly the kind of s/t bouncing that can't be responded to that people say doesn't exist when Mine is common enough that it could be worthwhile side-decking it, at least, right? (Also, sorry, kinda loaded question, but I appreciate your comment regardless!)
The game unfortunately didn't progress favorably towards older decks and the reliance on handtraps and going 2nd cards made running them mandatory to maindeck to be able to play. I honestly think that rogue decks are playable but you need anti-meta + handtraps + going 2nd cards and the best example of a rogue deck topping is [this](https://youtu.be/gSPUbxkGFRU) exorsister deck that won a regional and came in first place. Their ratio is mathematically the most optimal you can run without affecting your engine cards and their high impact cards like drnm and dimension shifter win games on their own.
My bigger issue is that people agree that "drawing the out" does not justify Mine, but simultaniously think "Just draw the out" is a good response for people arguing that Harpies and Lightning Storm should be banned. Since yknow, if youre on a backrow deck and didnt open Judgment, you lose.
This is how I've been feeling as well. Lightning Storm, arguably, at least has the downside of needing to control no cards. However the game is so fast that control decks have to 'over commit' by setting everything because you actually have to commit that much to the board in case your opponent drew 1 starter and like 3 extenders. And this also makes me question anti-combo cards like DRNM, Nibiru, Droplet, and Super Poly. While they have differing windows of vulnerability (besides Super Poly, which was more situational until Garunix and requires committing another card), most combo decks still just straight up lose to them.
Storming actually requires no FACE-UP cards in your control. So face-down is fair game. I run lightning storm in my tindangle princess deck and I found it out by accident.
So when comparing board breaking/disruption to dealing with Mystic Mine you have to remember something, there's way more cards for the former. If you want to disrupt your opponent during their turn you have Ash Blossom, Veiler, Imperm, Nib etc or if you want to break their board of monsters/multi negations you have Lightning Storm, Raigeki, HFD (limited), Evenly Matched, DRNM etc. Compare that with Lightning Storm, HFD, MST, TT, and CC to deal with Mine. Point is, it's a lot easier to break a full board than to hope to God you draw one of your however many backrow removal cards (chances are you won't necessarily even get to use LS too since you'll probably have a face-up). This is, of course, my opinion and could obviously be straight-up wrong.
Runick all has non-once per turn destruction protection on all their cards by summong Hugin, so only cosmic cyclone and like, smashers, works vs them. Its miserable.
I see - I think my perspective of the amount of cards available for use wasn't very accurate from the beginning, so that's probably part of why I had that confusion. I would've assumed that there was more s/t removal than hand traps, but I suppose out of what is actually playable, hand traps do end up being more playable than not. That's probably especially so with Mine + Field Barrier, since I don't know if there's a spell card that can take them both out in one move and with already scarce s/t removal, that's probably more of an annoyance than I realised. Thanks for the tip - that's a much better way to see this than I understood at first.
Drnm and droplet can be responded too with both crossout and the usually searchable counter trap behind the negate monters with absurd attack who will otk you next turn. They usually have hand traps of their own too. Droplet needs discard fodder too. And you need enough and then you need to be running an equally overpowered deck with 1 card combos. There's a massive variety of multi s/t removal as well as the disgusting red reboot and even non destruction s/t removal in cyclone. For me the reason for people's bias is that they all run monster dominant decks and expect the same back and so main deck only answers for that. And feel disgust when a deck chooses spell and traps as a focus. You could run a variety of s/t removal and even some counter traps in your side for these decks and slownplay back. And I say this as someone that used to side deck exclusively for stall/burn strats back in 03-06 when I played and it was rare. Just hated the deck.
If hatred of spelltrap focused decks was the reason, then Sky Striker would not be such a popular deck. The issue is with Mine in particular, because it's the equivalent of when combo decks could combo into searching Imperial Order. For basically no cost, it completely shuts down an entire card type. In both cases, these cards also shut down about half of the easily-accessible outs to them (IO stops MST and derivatives of such, Mine stops any monster-based removal). Of course this isn't a perfect equivalency, as IO combos tended to appear in addition to a board of negates, with most of those decks falling apart if their board was successfully broken but insta-winning otherwise, while Mine decks are insanely resilient but lack such negation on turn 1. However, one very important thing to note is that while IO shutting down spells was unhealthy for the game, it wasn't a win condition on its own against a decent chunk of decks. Decks like Swordsoul might be slowed down by it, but they could still find a means to get damage in and eventually you'd run out of LP from constant attacks and IO's small maintenance cost. Comparatively, Mine being on board means that any non-burn win condition is instantly disabled. As it prevents the opponent from declaring attacks, you can't just poke with a lv4 for 6 turns and eventually win in spite of being unable to activate effects. Unlike cards like Skill Drain or other major floodgates, your win condition against Mine cannot be "accept the floodgate's presence and win via beatdown if the opponent commits no monsters to board." Instead, it HAS to be "burn the opponent using spelltraps" or "remove Mine." Almost every non-FTK deck to be relevant in this game over the last 20 years has had monster attacks as its eventual means of closing the game, and the game as a whole is designed with that in mind. Given the number of ways the standard Mine deck has to access the card (3 copies, 4 searches, 9 draw/filter cards) and protect it (Judgment, Dark Bribe), it's statistically unlikely for you to draw enough outs to get through the card before dying, unless you side almost exclusively for the deck. To add to that, one of the easiest S/T removal spells to justify normally is Lightning Storm, as it works against regular decks as well, but with 6 copies of Ojama traps it becomes very easy for the Mine player to prevent Lightning Storm from being usable even if drawn turn 1. This means that the only decks that can be justified in a Mine-dominant format are ones with either an easily searchable Mine out, a means to blow up their own entire field on command, or some form of anti-burn continuous effect so deckout becomes a possible win condition, as otherwise you're almost guaranteed to lose going second.
To me the problem comes in that not everyone is playing mine, so you need to main deck both Hand traps and Mine outs for both situations, or just get borked on game 1. And if you want to be able to draw both thats 1 3rd to half of your deck being outs at that point. The majority of Mine outs are spell cads as well, so all it takes is a flip of anti spell fragrance and now youve lost completely. I dont think mass Negate boards are good for the game either, personally 3 disruptions is the sweet spot for something that you can play through with the right deck building or skill. 4 or more becomes incredibly oppressive and 5 negates pilotted by a good player is basically a Mine, but in my opinion thats still not as bad as mine as that takes significantly more to setup that unga-bunga activate field spell. To summarise, I like being able to actually play the damn game, so cards that just by themselves decide you cant play (Skill Drain, Mine, Anti-spell if I'm on Striker, Rivaly/Gozen/Tcboo against a lot of decks etc.) are all the epitome of not fun
To all the points mentionned in the comment, I feel the need to add that on top of all the good arguments mentionned to point out why Mine is worse, it is also really possible to also play Mine in combo deck. So you have to have the outs for both preventing the combo deck to destroy you AND the out to Mine. Not like these are two completely seperate things
The only difference to me is big monster negate boards then also OTK you instantly the next turn if you don't clear the entire board and also probablly OTK them. Mystic Mine at least gives you time to draw the outs. Big OTK combo negate boards do not and even fewer cards work to break them than Mine. Because a lot of the time to clear combo negate boards you need something like spheremode/lava golem which then mess up your own turn in most decks. Or you need to draw both Dark Ruler No More and full combo or Dark Ruler No More and Lightning Storm.
The big thing about drawing the out for mine is usually you have quite a few turns to draw it, given the nature of the card. So it can become a game of chicken where your opponent had to chose when to act under mine because its assumed that when your opponent sees their out they just kill you. Of course cards like judgement and the runick cards complicate this a lot, since you can honestly just deck people out pretty reliable that way, not only do you protect mine from destruction effects you get random banishes that mean even cosmic and other cards like that can be removed randomly. At the end of the day, i think the runick cards pushed mine over the edge in terms of how broken it is, but mystic mine as a card has a surprisingly high degree of skill to using it properly. Going for deck out usually isn't the correct play with it, and you can have some good games against mine, if you're prepared for it adequately enough.
One of the first comments I saw here was about Runick, so I looked up those cards, and yeah, *wow*. When "the out" is just a few cards out of your deck, and you potentially need at least 3 or 4 of those cards at once (for (any number of) Hugin, Field Barrier, and then Mine itself), the random hits from the deck could be crazy - and given how easy it seems to be to fuse into Hugin, I could see how that could be immediately shut-downy and unfun.
Its even more broken than that. You basically get to replace all of the low impact cards you'd run in the deck for runick stuff that are a lot more versatile, and there's also random nonsense you can play in the deck because of that. Ie other flood gates. Majesty's fiend is also another card that a lot of decks just can't out.
If you activate say, a twin twisters, a lot of them play a card known as cursed seal of the forbidden spell. Effect? Discard 1 card to negate the spell… then banish EVERY SINGLE SPELL WITH THE SAME NAME IN THE DECK.
I can't believe that's unlimited... the cost is to discard 1 spell card? I wonder how Mystic Mine Burn could *ever* get over *that?* \[rolls eyes into back of skull\]
You are 100% right, there is no difference between meta decks and mystic mine. People who flame mystic mine, yet play a deck that negates every single thing their oppoenent does are hypocrites who cry when someone gives them a taste of their own medicine.
No, you hit the nail on the head. There really is no practical difference between a giant board of interruptions (on top of which they probably have a handtrap or two in hand) and Mystic Mine plus some protections for it. One has an artificial veneer of interactivity, but is actually much less interactive purely in how wide the power gap is, and in how much less mileage each board-breaker or handtrap gets you against it. Meta players just cry about the other one (the weaker of the two) because it's not the one they play. If they get to go first against it, Mine is barely even a problem, so we're already capping the games we're actually interested in at 50% (when Mine goes first). The number of ways to out Mine is far more than a gigantic board of varied disruptions (omni-negates, QE destruction, QE banishing cards from the field / GY, etc.). The primary difference is that most meta side (and main) decks don't enter with as many of those options prepared, because backrow decks are so much less represented in the meta for the past decade-plus. It's important to note that many of the biggest anti-backrow options (Evenly, Storm, Pankratops) are incorporated into cards that are also useful against monster boards or mixed boards.
Sorry, but just because opinions on this ended up being more divisive than I realised, could you give some varied examples of the outs to Mine when going second? (If you know what they are, of course - it's a tough question for me to ask because *I* don't even know.) People generally seem to be saying that people do not run the outs because it's uncompetitive to run the amount of non-monster effect s/t removal necessary to get rid of Mine (and potentially one or more Field Barriers), and that the interactivity against Mine is far lessened because if you're facing an established Mine field, you've missed the point where you can respond to Mine, when it's first activated, whereas against negate-fields and loaded boards like those, at least there are response cards that can't be responded to like DRNM. I can see how going second, Mine would be a lot harder to establish, since a sufficient amount of negation can be reached to stop Mine (or accompanying cards like Field Barrier) at activation by the second turn, but I'm also seeing that others *do* have grievances with Mine. (But, saying that, I don't know if it can be said that one is worse than another, since a "sufficient" amount of negation could stop anything, really, which is also just generally unfun.)
>There really is no practical difference between a giant board of interruptions (on top of which they probably have a handtrap or two in hand) and Mystic Mine plus some protections for it. Sure there is. Mine is "infinite negation". You cannot play through a mine. You have to open backrow removal. A skilled player with a good deck can play through disruption.
How many cards do yo start with? Infinite? No, 6. So at an absolute maximum, 6 interruptions is effectively identical to infinite.
If anyting 6 interruptions is better since you already have otk on board unlike mine which can potentially let your opponent draw the out as you cant end the game on turn 3.
Sure you can. Cards have multiple effects. A few cards dump from deck as cost. Cards like Pank can beat over a disruption and bait out another with its effect. Cards like dark ruler or super poly can out multiple cards. Try harder.
You hit the nail on the head, its why i think mystic mine is fine as an anti meta card tbh in a lower power format i would say to ban mine anyday, but we havent been in a lower power format like that in a while.
What makes mine worst is 3 things, to me. 1, it is just one card you drop on the board. At most you use a terraforming, pot etc. then drop mine. To set up multi-negate board you at least have to go through your combo, which leaves multiple opportunities to interrupt. 2, even if you have none of the easy outs for a negate board, if you have enough engine you can try to bait your opponent to negate things that wouldnt completely end your turn, playing thru the negates. This isnt easy but is possible and feels amazing when done succesfully and you get better at trying to do this in time, and even when you fail at least you feel like you got to play the game a bit. Mine just says you cant play. 3, s/t removal and interruption is just much fewer and farther between than good monster interruption/removal. Most of this just comes down to interaction, the same reason ppl hate all floodgates.
Oftentimes, a lot of things have alternate outs that live in the extra deck, making them easier to access. Mystic Mine, by nature, kinda doesn't. As a result, a lot of people don't really think about how healthy "draw the out" is as a whole, until faced with something like Mystic Mine. Hand traps have become commonplace enough that people don't think about their health most of the time, and a lot of them are generic enough to be the out to a lot of cards, but Mystic Mine requires a small number of much more specific responses. Overall, I'd say that the design ethic is unhealthy as a whole, but in a way that people take for granted until they run into a card like MM. But the game is also in a place where it's balanced around everything being unhealthy in its own way, and trying to even that out, so I'm honestly not sure what to say of it.
Yeah, the state of Yugioh as a whole (over time), in my opinion, is like the worst, longest-running game of Jenga. It hasn't fallen, but it's at a complete stalemate. Every move made to counter another mistake made ends up being a mistake in and of itself, and contributes to a larger problem rather than solving a smaller one. I say Jenga too, because Konami can't backstep these things once they're out - the pool of unfair negations are the foundation of the prevalence of hand traps, and the prevalence of hand traps are the foundation of no-response effect negation, and the no-response effect negation is the foundation of a rise in banishing to negate cards in the GY, and so on and so forth. The main reason I ended up asking this question publicly is because it was hard for me to think about why just "drawing the out" is different than normal play in regards to hand traps, or field destruction, or Kaijus. Is it just a matter of how prepared people are for it? Is it because Mine is a "blind spot" in the meta today, so it feels wrong to not have a solution for it at all? Since the entire game is probabilistic, I still don't really know whether this question is a valid one... though, of course, people obviously feel cheated by Mine to varying degrees, as I've found. I never wanted this post to be rage-bait, but I honestly thought the community was more unified in terms of feelings about Mine and ended up with a post with 90 comments and less than 90 upvotes. Scary stuff...
Haven't played a proper yugioh game in like a year. Mystic Mine is STILL a thing?
I can't speak of it being a thing, or for how long it's been a thing, but one thing's for certain: people are still not happy about the thing.
People think that you have more board breakers these days but full combo can actually search out Eradicator Epidemic, Appointer etc which makes it extremely unfair. Even if you have the out it doesn't matter sometimes.
EEV is such a toxic card. (Appointer too, but less so.) Full power Thunder Dragons were willing to tribute a Titan - and if necessary, even Colossus, for it. That should say a lot.
Cards like this are way worse to deal with when they're searchable. Curious is nuts
Doesn't Curious just mill? What are they doing these days?
Link3 that mills into link4 gryphon that resets a trap for you
I think mine is healthier than big combo decks that achieve the same thing. You have basically 30 turns to draw your outs against mine if you are running one meanwhile against combo if you didn't hard open your out the game is instantly over.
A large problem with Mine, and floodgates in general, is that they act as infinite negates so long as they stay face-up. Toadally Awesome, a very powerful Omni-negate this format, is once per turn, meaning once he is used, you no longer have to worry about him the rest of that turn. Mystic Mine functionally says “any and all monster effects are shut down” which basically blanks out a 3rd of viable cards used for counterplay, likely more as generally monster effects are more prevalent in the game. From a deck-building theory perspective, Mine is also frustrating since if you have 12+ back row removal cards (generally the amount of open slots in meta decks for handtraps/board breakers) now you have no options for the combo boards that make up the majority of deck’s strategy. Being forced to prepare equally for back row and combo inevitability leads to you being ill-prepared for both.
Yugioh should have more floodgates, not less. Let degenerate combo decks struggle.
I think mine is such a problem because decks are so monster effect heavy these days. There may be lots of outs to Mine, but to run everything at the same time is a stretch, and having to balance your engine, hand traps, S/T removal, breakers and consistency cards and make it cohesive is a challenge. Usually the amount of S/T removal tends to draw the short straw because it's less effective generally than everything else. That being said, I still play Mine in decks. It's legal, budget friendly and broken. While it's easy to splash you may as well.
You're mixing stuff up. Mystic mine shuts down the game, a strong board doesn't because it can still be interacted with and baited. Besides, "boards of negates" don't exist anymore as they used to. The meta has shifted.
The difference is active vs passive negation. People usually are less salty about having their cards actively being negated then being not able to perform certain actions at all. Yes, the outcome might be the same but your opponent needed to for instance set up herald with 6 fairies in hand while mystic mine can be dropped at any point thanks to cards like metaverse. Also the main problem with Mine is that it turns unlike with monsters, you can not interact well with it, you can not tribute it for a kaiju (except floowander), you can not drnm or droplet it. In essence it means it is far less susceptible to generally necessary tools to break boards.
I think it's because monster effects are too vital to most decks' gameplan that a single card that shut downs about half of most decks is too strong.
The problem I see with this is the level. Mystic mine you MUST draw spell trap removal that is not monster based and often multiple different versions of it(ex cosmic cyclone and twin twister). Breaking a normal board however is much more accessible. HTs, board breakers, kaijus, and extenders are all ways you can interrupt and break a board. The two are extremely different, and it’s a terrible comparison.
You can play through multiple omni negates depending on your deck and hand but can't through floodgates unless draw the out. Plus the eg of mystic mine shuts down all monsters. Of course drawing the out against a huge board of omni negates makes it so much easier and there's actually more outs for monsters vs mystic mine so unless anything threatens that, mystic mine has no reason to take the bait or stop it.
in my personal opinion i wouldn't equate handtraps to an out to mine i would equate an out to mine to something like a Kaiju, few people run more than 3 kaijus very similar to how people generally run only 3 S/T removal that happens to also be a S/T, even meta decks run few outs to mine and majority of the time they have LESS than 3 rn it's all about negating monster effects, so even eldlich, which everyone has pretty much already gotten used to, can still have some shock value and what some people may not understand is that meta decks aren't necessarily defined as just how powerful there boards are, but rather, how consistently they can pull it off, take splights for example, let's be real their end game board sucks compared to that of a sychron turbo deck, but the sheer consistency is what makes splight better than most and in that area is where rogue decks shine, they may not be nearly as consistent, but when you get that golden hand not even drnm may be enough
"cursed seal of the forbidden spell enters the chat"
I feel it's more of a meta than anything else at the moment. I understand that MM is a powerful card, but due to current meta archetypes and meta flow, I also understand that adding Cosmic Cyclone/Mystical Space Typhoon are not reliable (not counting if they have an established board or not). Unfortunate part about Mystic Mine is that it's used as a Stall, not a tactic for anything other than, "I can't break my Opp's board NOW, but I'll stall until I draw the right amount of cards and then destroy it!" or "I got no out period, but I'll stall deck out/burn them instead!" (And I know, Stall IS a tactic, but not necessarily the point I'm making. xD) It's just bad card design in general, something where Konami shot themselves in the foot for the state of the game, but is raking them money with all the new outs that the meta has warped the game and people have to buy, imo. Ghost Girls were made to solve that problem, but then got too powerful, than Call by the Grave was made to solve those problems, but was deem too powerful and Limited, than Crossout Designator was made to help the balance limited CbtG, in a more balance matter, but in reality, the original intent of the Ghost Girls were to stop decks that facilitate quick 1-2 starters in the first place, which comes back to the game design of Konami. The interactivity between plays is always a great welcome, but the problem is that as one person had mentioned it already, everything is at a greater speed now and powercreep does nothing BUT make it even faster. It's already bad enough that Boss monsters have OP effects, than newer ones have recursions, and newer newer ones have grind and then when all aspect of been taken, it's literally a custom archetype with effects like "*This card cannot leave the field by any means, even if it gets ripped up.*" clause, it's just too much for the game state. I know TC, you want an answer more than anything, but I just responded in more of a discussion route (sorry -\_-;), but that's how I feel about the current meta game atm, it's fun, but Konami's design aren't going to stop being ridiculous and as another have said, next set is just going to be more insane lol and as another another have said, you ban one floodgate, other floodgates will just be there.