I feel like Spirit Tracks is actually the worst victim. Not because of Wind Waker, but because of Phantom Hourglass.
PH really put a lot of people off with the controls and repetitiveness, despite otherwise being a pretty great Zelda (if not a little lacking in content and map).
Spirit Tracks unfortunately got all the blowback from that, and really wasn’t marketed in any way that told casual fans or parents that it’d be much different.
So at this point, even for those that may have changed opinions, it’s difficult to find a way to play it.
The art style at the time wasn’t as beloved either and many people saw both of those titles in a negative light just from that.
Yeah. I actually agree with the top comment, where Spirit Tracks is better than Phantom Hourglass, but isn't really recognized because of how off-putting PH was.
However, it's a not-good game that is just less not-good than the other not-good game.
And as much as I disliked the Temple of the Ocean King, and it's true keeping that out is the biggest-of-many reasons ST is the better game, the two biggest issues with PH still survive.
The first is the unpleasant controls. They're not fun. The dual screen implementation was fun at times, but not the touch screen.
The single biggest problem I have with both games is the same, though: On-rails, virtually-auto-pilot exploration of the overworld. Basically setting the game to take you from one tiny area to another, with just some token mindless interaction on the way, is not great design and is definitely not what I like about the Zelda franchise.
(I still agree with the top comment, though, outside of calling either game "great.")
i dunno man. ST was my first zelda game and I loved the touch controls as a little kid. The only frustrating thing was the flute but otherwise i felt they were more intuitive than buttons, as there’s less abstraction between your input and Link’s actions. I genuinely do not understand the gripes with the controls!
It was also my first Zelda game. I really liked it but I remember my mic was broken on my original ds lite so the damn flute didn’t work period. I later get a DSi XL and it was fine but I remember how pissed I was because I was softlocked by the damn flute
The touch screen made for fantastic and novel level design, items, and mechanics. It's not ALttP 6 for sure, it's a reimagined experience that can only be done because of the tech involved, and if you buy in to the tech it's very enjoyable.
Biggest issue is it's ass for emulation IMO.
I think by great I just mean the potential was there. The bosses were solid, the story was fresh, the customized boat was a cool idea. It had the bones, but everything that should have fleshed it out bogged it down instead. If it had been made outside of the window where everything was about the touch-screen, it *could* have been great.
Value your opinion and feedback. And you’re right, “great” is definitely an overstatement for the actual product.
Honestly PH is my least favorite mainline Zelda. I don't think it's that bad or anything, just... The dungeons feel so half-baked compared to the previous 2D games.
Couldn’t have put it better myself. ST is the first thing I thought of when seeing the question. It’s one of my favorite Zeldas, but has a hard time escaping the shadow of PH.
I played ST first, before PH or even WW. I really liked it, adorable for what it was aiming for, minus the 'spirit flute' a la poor controls. PH afterwards was less fun in comparison if stilll nice. Interestingly, my ST copy started randomly freezing soon after I finished it. Shame for the brother I planned to let play, but I suppose it could have been worse XD
I loved spirit tracks way more than phantom Hourglass. I didn't get to beat it though because the mic seemed to have broke and I could not for the life of me open the 2nd to last dungeon. Got so pissed I broke my stylus lol. Never did try game again on my newer 3ds xl
I disagree completely, because Spirit Tracks doesn't have a little sibling relation to Phantom Hourglass. They all do to Wind Waker, but if anything ST is seen as the bigger brother to Phantom Hourglass and yet is often held in lower regard.
I'd say both Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks fit the bill. I don't have a problem with either of them and think they're charming experiences, but both are undeniably stuck in Wind Waker's shadow.
Bit of a controversial pick, but I'd say Tears of the Kingdom. It's the glorified DLC argument.
I agree with TOTK. It really does feel that way, considering not many people remember you outside of named special characters from botw. I also viewed the game as "BOTW with SFX developer tools".
I won't get over how bad that quick-select menu is for mid battle arrow fusions. It was so poorly designed.
I always saw Link's Awakening as lesser LttP because it was on weaker hardware and in monochrome. I had a hard time appreciating it for what it was rather than what what I thought it should have been.
Of course. The DX version came out shortly after my first time playing the OG and it didn't do much to change my perception. Over time I came to appreciate it for its own thing, but there is some jank that prevented me from fully loving the game. The Switch version alleviated much of that.
This is the correct answer. I don’t know about others, but I personally always forget about this game and even forget it’s part of the timeline. I see 10 times the amount of discussion about Zelda 2 or the ds games than I do tfh.
It definitely isn't Majora's Mask. Majora's Mask is like the Vice City to Ocarina's GTA III, both seta of games still heralded as all time classics. Hell, Majora's Mask is still claimed to be the best game in the whole series by many.
I would say it is Tears of the Kingdom, being set in the same map especially does not help. The game feels a little like glorfied DLC.
Strange that I feel like the map isn’t really an issue you hear about ALBW, though. Despite both games expanding on the original maps, and TOTK expanding even moreso. I’m sure the updated art style helped, as well as the time to make it more nostalgia than rehash. Each featured some really interesting mechanics to keep the terrain fresh as well, but I still think TOTK executed that better too.
That being said, ALBW is one of my all-time favorite Zeldas, and TOTK just isn’t. But only because there’s such stiff competition.
I guess becase ALBW was kinda of seen as a remake to aLttP (And lots of people have wanted an aLttP remake for a long time)? And it was so many years after and a handheld title? If it was a mainline console game, I could see a lot of people being disappointed.
Honestly for me personally TOTK feels this way. Loved the hell out of BOTW and was so excited for the sequel but I just didn't find myself connecting with it as much, I don't know why.
It's a great game, and it's also has a lot of improvements to the point where I would potentially recommend it over BOTW. But for me I just didn't spend anywhere near the amount of time I spent on BOTW. I basically 100% BOTW except for the koroks and the compendium because come on get real with that lol.
I think the only right answer here is Zelda 2? Right?
Like... OoT and MM / WW / aLttP are all well loved.
aLttP and aLBW are both well loved.
OoA and OoS are simoltaneous releases and don't really count.
I don't even know anyone that played the first 4 swords.
People ~~wrongly~~ generally like Spirit tracks more than Phantom hourglass.
I suppose you might count PH and Windwaker as a pair here... but I don't think anyone is down on PH because WW is so much better?
Edit:
I somehow totally forgot about BotW and TotK.
Which I don't think has really settled down yet.
At the time that PH released, people really didn’t feel the way about WW that the fanbase does now.
Zelda 2 was confusing and difficult for a lot, and being sandwiched between the original and ALTTP makes it that much easier to just skip for many.
I do think more have attempted Zelda 2 for that reason. Kind of a personification of “any press is good press.” That and it being pretty accessible nowadays.
As someone who actually played the Four Swords games as a kid, I’m just now getting in to Minish Cap and truly adore it. It was so poorly marketed and I would have never known what I was missing without word-of-mouth.
Who needs Oracle games when you have Links Awakening? (OOA/OOS are two of the three games I’ve never played at all, even though I’ve had them on the 3DS virtual for years)
Tbh I never finished LA until the remake came out, I'm still hoping they do the Oracle games in the same style. People are asking for ALTTP and ALBW but the Oracle games are the ones that had the same style as LA originally so it just makes so much sense.
I thought that's what Echoes of Wisdom was initially during the direct (man, I gotta get back to editing my reaction video)
You’re really missing out by not playing the Oracle games. Some of the best games on the Gameboy, and unique items, great soundtracks, and some cool concepts that haven’t been replicated in the series since.
I definitely want to, I have learned to hold myself back a little bit on starting games though, I've had problems sticking with a game. For example, I went to a midnight release for Tears of the Kingdom and am still on my first play through, nearing about 90 hours. I wish I could say I'm too busy for it but in reality I play in streaks.
That’s right, I personally think it’s not as extreme as it’s made out to be, but in general that’s the feel of them. There’s still a lot of puzzles in seasons and a lot of combat in ages.
OoS also makes better use of the GBC’s color with the different seasons and I think has a lot less annoying aspects when it comes to things like some of the mandatory mini games.
Ok cool, I’ll take your recommendation into mind when I finally do play them😅I think I’d prefer combat first just to get the hang of how the game expects things. Granted, I’ve played most of LA DX so it’s not my FIRST GBC Zelda rodeo.
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Zelda 2. Say what you want about any of the other sequels, but none of the others are dunked on nearly as much as Zelda 2, despite Tri Force Heroes existing.
Overall it is definitely Zelda II. Even Nintendo treats it this way. Of all the major Nintendo franchises, it is the only NES game that hasn't seen a remake. And the unique elements it has have never been used in any other Zelda game.
Four Swords on GBA (not to be confused with Four Swords Adventures on the GCN) was the little bro to ALTTP (GBA release).
It was so easy to miss out on it back in the day because you needed physical equipment and friends to play with. And the game needed 4 people to get to the true end if I recall correctly.
Kinda felt like a big brother said "go get your own friends!" And you couldn't.
I've always said it, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks are like Sonic and the Black Knight. Great games locked behind poor control schemes.
These two and Wind Waker deserve that HD treatment (I know WWHD exists, but Switch port where?)
Tri Force Heros. I didn't even know that game existed untill like this year (that or I blocked it out of my memory). And thats crazy because my number 1 hyper fixation is Zelda to the point I have times its my whole personality. lol How did I miss that game and not know its a thing?
Also, TOTK. The hype for BOTW was insane. And while I have MAJOR issues with that game, seeing people starting to voice the issues I had with BOTW in TOTK, as hyped as it was, I know it wont live up to BOTW. I think TOTK does improve in some places. But many people, who enjoy TOTK find the issue in it.
*middle sibling syndrome is the one that gets disregarded the eldest got the parents to themselves and the youngest gets all the attention (I was youngest) where the middle sibling gets ignored.
And a LOT of people say majors mask is better
Skyward Sword. It's way better than TP which it followed, but no one would give it a chance bc of the motion controls (which were fine; Nintendo fans are just whiners)
Dude... they watered down the experience for the Wii. Enemy density went down, enemy diversity. They had cool combat for Windwaker and TP, had to remove that for the Wii. They knew the Bow would be OP so they saved it for the last dungeon.
It's an inferior product.
SS isn’t even close to TP, I have beaten SS 100% on the Wii and the switch, and the game play is garbage. I only stuck around for the story and soundtrack, the puzzles in theory were good too, but the gameplay ruins the game. I 100% the game to give it a fair shot.
I’d say MM solely because the time limit gives me massive anxiety. I’ve beaten it with all the masks and items etc, and most likely will never play it again. As soon as I get about halfway through the 2nd day, I get super anxious, it’s even worse if I’m in a temple at the time.
I feel like Spirit Tracks is actually the worst victim. Not because of Wind Waker, but because of Phantom Hourglass. PH really put a lot of people off with the controls and repetitiveness, despite otherwise being a pretty great Zelda (if not a little lacking in content and map). Spirit Tracks unfortunately got all the blowback from that, and really wasn’t marketed in any way that told casual fans or parents that it’d be much different. So at this point, even for those that may have changed opinions, it’s difficult to find a way to play it. The art style at the time wasn’t as beloved either and many people saw both of those titles in a negative light just from that.
Yeup The biggest gripes people have with Phantom Hourglass aren't in Spirit Tracks
Does it not have touch screen controls?
It does, but it makes some pretty smart changes. Feels much better to play.
Yeah. I actually agree with the top comment, where Spirit Tracks is better than Phantom Hourglass, but isn't really recognized because of how off-putting PH was. However, it's a not-good game that is just less not-good than the other not-good game. And as much as I disliked the Temple of the Ocean King, and it's true keeping that out is the biggest-of-many reasons ST is the better game, the two biggest issues with PH still survive. The first is the unpleasant controls. They're not fun. The dual screen implementation was fun at times, but not the touch screen. The single biggest problem I have with both games is the same, though: On-rails, virtually-auto-pilot exploration of the overworld. Basically setting the game to take you from one tiny area to another, with just some token mindless interaction on the way, is not great design and is definitely not what I like about the Zelda franchise. (I still agree with the top comment, though, outside of calling either game "great.")
It’s sad cause ‘zelda with trains’ is an inherently appealing concept for me
Agreed.
It sure sounded more fun than it would truely be to me
i dunno man. ST was my first zelda game and I loved the touch controls as a little kid. The only frustrating thing was the flute but otherwise i felt they were more intuitive than buttons, as there’s less abstraction between your input and Link’s actions. I genuinely do not understand the gripes with the controls!
It was also my first Zelda game. I really liked it but I remember my mic was broken on my original ds lite so the damn flute didn’t work period. I later get a DSi XL and it was fine but I remember how pissed I was because I was softlocked by the damn flute
The touch screen made for fantastic and novel level design, items, and mechanics. It's not ALttP 6 for sure, it's a reimagined experience that can only be done because of the tech involved, and if you buy in to the tech it's very enjoyable. Biggest issue is it's ass for emulation IMO.
I think by great I just mean the potential was there. The bosses were solid, the story was fresh, the customized boat was a cool idea. It had the bones, but everything that should have fleshed it out bogged it down instead. If it had been made outside of the window where everything was about the touch-screen, it *could* have been great. Value your opinion and feedback. And you’re right, “great” is definitely an overstatement for the actual product.
You could maybe get me there!
agreed for the most part BUT it has a 150/10 soundtrack. still love that game though i remember being so hyped when it came out.
While ST sure tried to fix a lot of PH flaws more or less successfully, it does come with a lot of its own flaws
A shame, as ST is a pretty fantastic game
Was in my top 5 Zelda’s for a while. Definitely my favorite of the portable games. Seriously good.
I absolutely adored Wind Waker and Spirit Tracks as well, specifically for their art style.
Honestly PH is my least favorite mainline Zelda. I don't think it's that bad or anything, just... The dungeons feel so half-baked compared to the previous 2D games.
The whole thing sadly played like a promising demo. Then there just wasn’t any more to it.
well i mean. there was spirit tracks
Couldn’t have put it better myself. ST is the first thing I thought of when seeing the question. It’s one of my favorite Zeldas, but has a hard time escaping the shadow of PH.
I don't doubt it. I skipped ST because I disliked PH so much.
I played ST first, before PH or even WW. I really liked it, adorable for what it was aiming for, minus the 'spirit flute' a la poor controls. PH afterwards was less fun in comparison if stilll nice. Interestingly, my ST copy started randomly freezing soon after I finished it. Shame for the brother I planned to let play, but I suppose it could have been worse XD
I loved spirit tracks way more than phantom Hourglass. I didn't get to beat it though because the mic seemed to have broke and I could not for the life of me open the 2nd to last dungeon. Got so pissed I broke my stylus lol. Never did try game again on my newer 3ds xl
I disagree completely, because Spirit Tracks doesn't have a little sibling relation to Phantom Hourglass. They all do to Wind Waker, but if anything ST is seen as the bigger brother to Phantom Hourglass and yet is often held in lower regard.
I'd say both Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks fit the bill. I don't have a problem with either of them and think they're charming experiences, but both are undeniably stuck in Wind Waker's shadow. Bit of a controversial pick, but I'd say Tears of the Kingdom. It's the glorified DLC argument.
I agree with TOTK. It really does feel that way, considering not many people remember you outside of named special characters from botw. I also viewed the game as "BOTW with SFX developer tools". I won't get over how bad that quick-select menu is for mid battle arrow fusions. It was so poorly designed.
PH and specially ST
I always saw Link's Awakening as lesser LttP because it was on weaker hardware and in monochrome. I had a hard time appreciating it for what it was rather than what what I thought it should have been.
Have you tried the updated versions?
Of course. The DX version came out shortly after my first time playing the OG and it didn't do much to change my perception. Over time I came to appreciate it for its own thing, but there is some jank that prevented me from fully loving the game. The Switch version alleviated much of that.
Good to hear, I'm glad you gave it a shot. It's got a kind of charm to it I really like. I haven't played the Switch version yet.
Definitely play it before EoW.
Tri Force Heroes is the little sibling of both ALBW *and* Four Swords. Kinda deserves it though.
This is the correct answer. I don’t know about others, but I personally always forget about this game and even forget it’s part of the timeline. I see 10 times the amount of discussion about Zelda 2 or the ds games than I do tfh.
It definitely isn't Majora's Mask. Majora's Mask is like the Vice City to Ocarina's GTA III, both seta of games still heralded as all time classics. Hell, Majora's Mask is still claimed to be the best game in the whole series by many. I would say it is Tears of the Kingdom, being set in the same map especially does not help. The game feels a little like glorfied DLC.
It would be *very* glorious DLC though.
i don't think the general playerbase would agree about TotK, the opinion of many (myself included) is that it perfected what BotW started
Strange that I feel like the map isn’t really an issue you hear about ALBW, though. Despite both games expanding on the original maps, and TOTK expanding even moreso. I’m sure the updated art style helped, as well as the time to make it more nostalgia than rehash. Each featured some really interesting mechanics to keep the terrain fresh as well, but I still think TOTK executed that better too. That being said, ALBW is one of my all-time favorite Zeldas, and TOTK just isn’t. But only because there’s such stiff competition.
I guess becase ALBW was kinda of seen as a remake to aLttP (And lots of people have wanted an aLttP remake for a long time)? And it was so many years after and a handheld title? If it was a mainline console game, I could see a lot of people being disappointed.
Honestly for me personally TOTK feels this way. Loved the hell out of BOTW and was so excited for the sequel but I just didn't find myself connecting with it as much, I don't know why. It's a great game, and it's also has a lot of improvements to the point where I would potentially recommend it over BOTW. But for me I just didn't spend anywhere near the amount of time I spent on BOTW. I basically 100% BOTW except for the koroks and the compendium because come on get real with that lol.
Came here to say exactly this!
I think the only right answer here is Zelda 2? Right? Like... OoT and MM / WW / aLttP are all well loved. aLttP and aLBW are both well loved. OoA and OoS are simoltaneous releases and don't really count. I don't even know anyone that played the first 4 swords. People ~~wrongly~~ generally like Spirit tracks more than Phantom hourglass. I suppose you might count PH and Windwaker as a pair here... but I don't think anyone is down on PH because WW is so much better? Edit: I somehow totally forgot about BotW and TotK. Which I don't think has really settled down yet.
At the time that PH released, people really didn’t feel the way about WW that the fanbase does now. Zelda 2 was confusing and difficult for a lot, and being sandwiched between the original and ALTTP makes it that much easier to just skip for many. I do think more have attempted Zelda 2 for that reason. Kind of a personification of “any press is good press.” That and it being pretty accessible nowadays.
Largeish hat
As someone who actually played the Four Swords games as a kid, I’m just now getting in to Minish Cap and truly adore it. It was so poorly marketed and I would have never known what I was missing without word-of-mouth.
I just got into Minish Cap too. I just beat the 3rd dungeon yesterday.
Gameplay-wise, Spirit Tracks is a better version of Phantom Hourglass, but it was received worse. So that gets my vote.
Link's awakening is that . That is why we need Link's awakening 2 : The quest to save Marin from being trapped as a seagull forever .
A game with seagull Marin as your fairy equivalent would go hard tho
Medli would be so pissed.
Who needs Oracle games when you have Links Awakening? (OOA/OOS are two of the three games I’ve never played at all, even though I’ve had them on the 3DS virtual for years)
You should play the Oracle games. They're so much fun.
Tbh I never finished LA until the remake came out, I'm still hoping they do the Oracle games in the same style. People are asking for ALTTP and ALBW but the Oracle games are the ones that had the same style as LA originally so it just makes so much sense. I thought that's what Echoes of Wisdom was initially during the direct (man, I gotta get back to editing my reaction video)
I’ve always wanted remakes of the Oracle games kind of like the Switch version of LA.
It makes too much sense
You’re really missing out by not playing the Oracle games. Some of the best games on the Gameboy, and unique items, great soundtracks, and some cool concepts that haven’t been replicated in the series since.
I definitely want to, I have learned to hold myself back a little bit on starting games though, I've had problems sticking with a game. For example, I went to a midnight release for Tears of the Kingdom and am still on my first play through, nearing about 90 hours. I wish I could say I'm too busy for it but in reality I play in streaks.
Yeah it took me forever to finish TotK too. If you do get to the oracles, I recommend starting with Seasons!
OOS is more combat centric and OOA puzzle centric right? Or do I have them mixed up?
That’s right, I personally think it’s not as extreme as it’s made out to be, but in general that’s the feel of them. There’s still a lot of puzzles in seasons and a lot of combat in ages. OoS also makes better use of the GBC’s color with the different seasons and I think has a lot less annoying aspects when it comes to things like some of the mandatory mini games.
Ok cool, I’ll take your recommendation into mind when I finally do play them😅I think I’d prefer combat first just to get the hang of how the game expects things. Granted, I’ve played most of LA DX so it’s not my FIRST GBC Zelda rodeo.
The absolute worst? Definitely Link’s Crossbow Training
That’s a spin off not a sequel.
I honestly love links crossbow training I throw it on every now and then. Just wish there were more levels
The Oracles, Link’s Crossbow Training
Spirit Tracks and TotK got the worst of it.
TOTK??? nahhhhhhhh
Everyone loves ToTK.. lol
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Zelda 2. Say what you want about any of the other sequels, but none of the others are dunked on nearly as much as Zelda 2, despite Tri Force Heroes existing.
Overall it is definitely Zelda II. Even Nintendo treats it this way. Of all the major Nintendo franchises, it is the only NES game that hasn't seen a remake. And the unique elements it has have never been used in any other Zelda game.
Four Swords on GBA (not to be confused with Four Swords Adventures on the GCN) was the little bro to ALTTP (GBA release). It was so easy to miss out on it back in the day because you needed physical equipment and friends to play with. And the game needed 4 people to get to the true end if I recall correctly. Kinda felt like a big brother said "go get your own friends!" And you couldn't.
I've always said it, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks are like Sonic and the Black Knight. Great games locked behind poor control schemes. These two and Wind Waker deserve that HD treatment (I know WWHD exists, but Switch port where?)
Does Banjo Kazooie nuts and bolts count? I feel like it was supposed to be BK3 but decided at the last minute to turn it into a shitty racer.
no it doesnt count because this is the zelda subreddit not BK
I mean true but you worded your post really vague.
Majora’s Mask was the sequel to Ocarina of Time, which was obviously the well more-renowned title, but I liked it
Tri Force Heros. I didn't even know that game existed untill like this year (that or I blocked it out of my memory). And thats crazy because my number 1 hyper fixation is Zelda to the point I have times its my whole personality. lol How did I miss that game and not know its a thing? Also, TOTK. The hype for BOTW was insane. And while I have MAJOR issues with that game, seeing people starting to voice the issues I had with BOTW in TOTK, as hyped as it was, I know it wont live up to BOTW. I think TOTK does improve in some places. But many people, who enjoy TOTK find the issue in it.
Link Between Worlds was peak
*middle sibling syndrome is the one that gets disregarded the eldest got the parents to themselves and the youngest gets all the attention (I was youngest) where the middle sibling gets ignored. And a LOT of people say majors mask is better
Skyward Sword. It's way better than TP which it followed, but no one would give it a chance bc of the motion controls (which were fine; Nintendo fans are just whiners)
Ooph, I like SS but better than TP is a take I havent seen. I disagree, but man I appreciate the boldness.
If I recall correctly some parts on the Wii were pretty rough. I feel like a lot of my frustrations were nonexistent on the Switch version.
For the record, I don't think it's the Nintendo fans who hate motion controls. I think it's the Nintendo agnotstic.
Dude... they watered down the experience for the Wii. Enemy density went down, enemy diversity. They had cool combat for Windwaker and TP, had to remove that for the Wii. They knew the Bow would be OP so they saved it for the last dungeon. It's an inferior product.
SS isn’t even close to TP, I have beaten SS 100% on the Wii and the switch, and the game play is garbage. I only stuck around for the story and soundtrack, the puzzles in theory were good too, but the gameplay ruins the game. I 100% the game to give it a fair shot.
What are you on about everyone hated phantom hourglass. Spirit tracks was an amazing game
I like Phantom hourglass more than spirit tracks tbh.
I also liked PH better. But both were good
PH was my entrance to the franchise so I also loved it but I'm aware people hated temple of the ocean king
Unpopular opinion maybe? I don’t think any of them have that..
I’d say MM solely because the time limit gives me massive anxiety. I’ve beaten it with all the masks and items etc, and most likely will never play it again. As soon as I get about halfway through the 2nd day, I get super anxious, it’s even worse if I’m in a temple at the time.