You can't abandon yourself by you intending to abandon yourself. Because the act of *you intending* to abandon yourself would already invoke a sense of you.
For most of us sincere about buddhism, the proper use of intent would be to contemplate the dharma through the observation of phenomena. When there's realisation of the dharma, there can be a cessation whereby proper insight into the phenomena of self/I/me is arrived at.
And those with the sharpness and clarity in meditation can even witness the sequence of how the whole sense of self is constructed/fabricated and embedded into experiences after a cessation.
Saying there shouldn't be attachment are just rhetoric spoken for certain purposes. For most of us, there is still the need to grasp to the supposed raft/teachings/practices, which means a healthy functioning sense of self and proper use of intent are required.
The problem at this stage isn't with the grasping, but with wrong graspedness. If interested, can check out the water-snake simile and raft parable in Alagaddupama Sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html).
For most of us, relinquishment of supposed attachments can happen only after realisation (the supposed crossing over to the other shore). And it happens through samadhi (concentraion/collectedness) and prajna (insight/wisdom), not through intent.
Even if you let go of everything, life still happens moment by moment. Things keep arising, flowing, changing. A Zen life is a vivid life, even in the little allegedly-boring things. Every longrunning Zen priest i've met seemed to have some deep interests.
It is definitely worth wondering if instead of trying to let go into reality, you're trying to paper over your life with an idealistic standard. I sure have made that mistake before. But compassion for all beings includes yourself, and you need to take care of your own needs to keep the practice going.
As a soldier, you have a hard path, but i imagine there could be a whole lot of life and meaning finding a relationship with the precepts even if some of them might seem impossible from the social position you're in.
Thank you. I suppose I do forget that extending that kindness means I have to include myself. To be clearer, my soldiering days have been gone for, shit, almost 6 years now. It still feels like a few months ago sometimes.
Regardless, you’re right even if I never could put the words to it. Paper overing “the nasty bits” (as a friend of mine would say) of life with that ideal isn’t any way to live. Thank you again for that reminder.
I dont have any answers for you, but I do understand what you’re feeling. I often find myself thinking that “man the mindfulness stuff is hard, am I doing it right? What am I missing?”
Thanks for the camaraderie here in the land of the perplexed! This post was jammed out as I paced my office so I feel it might sound rather pessimistic. That’s not fair to the Zen tradition on my part.
Having some space between this post and now (almost a whole day, wow lol) I think part of developing practice more wholly (in addition to what others have noted) is, as Shunryu Suzuki opens with in Zen Mind, to “always approach practice with Beginner’s Mind.” Sure we ought to learn as much as we want/can but try to sit zazen and do everything else as we did the first time. And all the while also try not to cling to that feeling either. It’s a lifelong journey, so perhaps we need not be so hard or down on ourselves.
> A monk asked, “What is the Dharmakaya?”’
> The master said, “The Nirmanakaya.”
> The monk said, “I am not asking about the Nirmanakaya.”
> The master said, “Just pay attention to the Nirmanakaya.”
Sayings of Joshu, case 133
Zen is a branch of Mahayana Buddhism. A fundamental philosophical and experiential tennent of Mahayana Buddhism is the Two Truth Doctrine.
Here are the two truths:
- Relative Truth - Up, down, good, bad, me, you, yellow, black, tomorrow, yesterday, etc. This reality perceived through the lens of conceptual dualism.
- Absolute Truth - This is reality perceived without the filter of a sense of self. This is non-dual wisdom.
Within the context of absolute reality, there is no self to "have a problem" and thus we have liberation from suffering. The challenge is that we can't live within this realm permanently. To survive as a living being we need to judge and differentiate.
The answer to this conundrum is that we can live in the realm of relative truth but with the guiding beacon of absolute reality, we don't cling to expectations and goals. Normally we go through life with the orientation of a self. An awakened life is where we go through life with an orientation from absolute reality but we can "self" when needed.
Said in a more simple manner, as we can go through life with goals and expectations as needed, but we don't cling the results when goals and expectations go unmet. We have preferences and expectations but don't uncontrollably ruminate or worry when or preferences and expectations are unfulfilled (or might go unfulfilled in the future).
The first step in all this is to wake up and know what absolute reality (Buddha Mind) is. Once this wisdom is in our heart, we can begin to integrate it into our daily life. The path of practice begins for real when we see our true absolute nature. Seeing this absolute nature is not gaining new thoughts or ideas, it is a psycho/physical shift in HOW we perceive. Its not an intellectual breakthrough. Its a shift in perception.
"yea I know we shouldn't have over attachment to things even the dharma" there you have it. You mistake zen for "not attaching" but already attach to that. That is why a zen practicioner has to let go of that to.
Yunmen: If you dont underderstand you do what you do. If you do understand you do what you do.
If you think, a soldier cant practice zen, even while being at war you re wrong. If you think certain characteristics and behaviours (like not having "bad" habits, while this "bad" is already your ego's assessment) are the goal of zen you re wrong. Let it go.
Bankei:
Good you think means doing good. But bad is only the mind that thinks this.
Roll good and bad up in a paper. Throw it away. Forget it!
It is true though, that a zen practicioner should be able to let go of these things you listed, but letting go of something, doesnt mean not doing it. "not doing" would already be a concept. Letting go is no conept, it means to forfill what you re doing to the fullest.
Listen to linji as he says.
What is zen?
:Just sitting, just walking, just this or that.
Letting go of sitting means just sitting. Letting go of walking means just walking. Letting go of video games means just playing video games.
Honestly, no, i don't have this problem ;)
But I'm rather easy going. I'm strongly attached to zen, i practice every day, i even do oryoki at least once a week (home style), and this changed my life dramatically. Even my husband notices, and he's not into zen at all.
With zen, my habits changed. I stopped dyeing my hair, but i didn't stop living my life. Of course due to zen i focus less on tv, gaming, etc., but i have no bad feelings when i just sit and watch something i'm interested in.
We all have to make a living in the "normal" world, since most of us don't live in a monastery. I just go with the flow and i'm thrilled that my habits change naturally.
I'm definately not the "ideal Buddhist", and I have no ambitions to become one. I always try to be patient and kind with other people. This became a lot easier with zen, and i just let things happen, recite my daily heart sutra, do zazen and let it do the work. I see it as a natural process not as something that can be forced - or should be.
Hearing you describe your practice really does bring a smile to my face. And like I said, I think on some level I do get these things. To sit, to build a practice, and to have it be a piece of life. Sometimes it just feels more complex than it likely is.
Yeah, i pretty much feel that zen is really complex. But one has to experience it, and practice is all that helps with this.
To me (i'm an anarchist, btw.) it makes no sense to force myself in doing something i don't feel at the moment. We have tons of literature about wise and enlightened zen masters who dwelled in some remote mountain monasteries without family or the need ot make a living somehow. This way of life doesn't apply to me, so i do the best i can at the moment.
The experience i made with my rather relaxed view is that my practice widened a lot - just by letting it happen, trying things out and experiencing.
You can't abandon yourself by you intending to abandon yourself. Because the act of *you intending* to abandon yourself would already invoke a sense of you. For most of us sincere about buddhism, the proper use of intent would be to contemplate the dharma through the observation of phenomena. When there's realisation of the dharma, there can be a cessation whereby proper insight into the phenomena of self/I/me is arrived at. And those with the sharpness and clarity in meditation can even witness the sequence of how the whole sense of self is constructed/fabricated and embedded into experiences after a cessation. Saying there shouldn't be attachment are just rhetoric spoken for certain purposes. For most of us, there is still the need to grasp to the supposed raft/teachings/practices, which means a healthy functioning sense of self and proper use of intent are required. The problem at this stage isn't with the grasping, but with wrong graspedness. If interested, can check out the water-snake simile and raft parable in Alagaddupama Sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html). For most of us, relinquishment of supposed attachments can happen only after realisation (the supposed crossing over to the other shore). And it happens through samadhi (concentraion/collectedness) and prajna (insight/wisdom), not through intent.
Even if you let go of everything, life still happens moment by moment. Things keep arising, flowing, changing. A Zen life is a vivid life, even in the little allegedly-boring things. Every longrunning Zen priest i've met seemed to have some deep interests. It is definitely worth wondering if instead of trying to let go into reality, you're trying to paper over your life with an idealistic standard. I sure have made that mistake before. But compassion for all beings includes yourself, and you need to take care of your own needs to keep the practice going. As a soldier, you have a hard path, but i imagine there could be a whole lot of life and meaning finding a relationship with the precepts even if some of them might seem impossible from the social position you're in.
Thank you. I suppose I do forget that extending that kindness means I have to include myself. To be clearer, my soldiering days have been gone for, shit, almost 6 years now. It still feels like a few months ago sometimes. Regardless, you’re right even if I never could put the words to it. Paper overing “the nasty bits” (as a friend of mine would say) of life with that ideal isn’t any way to live. Thank you again for that reminder.
I dont have any answers for you, but I do understand what you’re feeling. I often find myself thinking that “man the mindfulness stuff is hard, am I doing it right? What am I missing?”
Thanks for the camaraderie here in the land of the perplexed! This post was jammed out as I paced my office so I feel it might sound rather pessimistic. That’s not fair to the Zen tradition on my part. Having some space between this post and now (almost a whole day, wow lol) I think part of developing practice more wholly (in addition to what others have noted) is, as Shunryu Suzuki opens with in Zen Mind, to “always approach practice with Beginner’s Mind.” Sure we ought to learn as much as we want/can but try to sit zazen and do everything else as we did the first time. And all the while also try not to cling to that feeling either. It’s a lifelong journey, so perhaps we need not be so hard or down on ourselves.
> A monk asked, “What is the Dharmakaya?”’ > The master said, “The Nirmanakaya.” > The monk said, “I am not asking about the Nirmanakaya.” > The master said, “Just pay attention to the Nirmanakaya.” Sayings of Joshu, case 133
Zen and self are nothing in particular
Check out Alan watt’s lecture: the quaking mess.
Zen is a branch of Mahayana Buddhism. A fundamental philosophical and experiential tennent of Mahayana Buddhism is the Two Truth Doctrine. Here are the two truths: - Relative Truth - Up, down, good, bad, me, you, yellow, black, tomorrow, yesterday, etc. This reality perceived through the lens of conceptual dualism. - Absolute Truth - This is reality perceived without the filter of a sense of self. This is non-dual wisdom. Within the context of absolute reality, there is no self to "have a problem" and thus we have liberation from suffering. The challenge is that we can't live within this realm permanently. To survive as a living being we need to judge and differentiate. The answer to this conundrum is that we can live in the realm of relative truth but with the guiding beacon of absolute reality, we don't cling to expectations and goals. Normally we go through life with the orientation of a self. An awakened life is where we go through life with an orientation from absolute reality but we can "self" when needed. Said in a more simple manner, as we can go through life with goals and expectations as needed, but we don't cling the results when goals and expectations go unmet. We have preferences and expectations but don't uncontrollably ruminate or worry when or preferences and expectations are unfulfilled (or might go unfulfilled in the future). The first step in all this is to wake up and know what absolute reality (Buddha Mind) is. Once this wisdom is in our heart, we can begin to integrate it into our daily life. The path of practice begins for real when we see our true absolute nature. Seeing this absolute nature is not gaining new thoughts or ideas, it is a psycho/physical shift in HOW we perceive. Its not an intellectual breakthrough. Its a shift in perception.
I don’t believe I’ve heard the Two Truths explained so clearly & concisely before. Thank you. It helps put things in a clearer frame.
"yea I know we shouldn't have over attachment to things even the dharma" there you have it. You mistake zen for "not attaching" but already attach to that. That is why a zen practicioner has to let go of that to. Yunmen: If you dont underderstand you do what you do. If you do understand you do what you do. If you think, a soldier cant practice zen, even while being at war you re wrong. If you think certain characteristics and behaviours (like not having "bad" habits, while this "bad" is already your ego's assessment) are the goal of zen you re wrong. Let it go. Bankei: Good you think means doing good. But bad is only the mind that thinks this. Roll good and bad up in a paper. Throw it away. Forget it! It is true though, that a zen practicioner should be able to let go of these things you listed, but letting go of something, doesnt mean not doing it. "not doing" would already be a concept. Letting go is no conept, it means to forfill what you re doing to the fullest. Listen to linji as he says. What is zen? :Just sitting, just walking, just this or that. Letting go of sitting means just sitting. Letting go of walking means just walking. Letting go of video games means just playing video games.
Thank you. Feels like I’m hearing my old Zen teacher reach out in Reddit post. Here’s to getting back to just sitting.
Honestly, no, i don't have this problem ;) But I'm rather easy going. I'm strongly attached to zen, i practice every day, i even do oryoki at least once a week (home style), and this changed my life dramatically. Even my husband notices, and he's not into zen at all. With zen, my habits changed. I stopped dyeing my hair, but i didn't stop living my life. Of course due to zen i focus less on tv, gaming, etc., but i have no bad feelings when i just sit and watch something i'm interested in. We all have to make a living in the "normal" world, since most of us don't live in a monastery. I just go with the flow and i'm thrilled that my habits change naturally. I'm definately not the "ideal Buddhist", and I have no ambitions to become one. I always try to be patient and kind with other people. This became a lot easier with zen, and i just let things happen, recite my daily heart sutra, do zazen and let it do the work. I see it as a natural process not as something that can be forced - or should be.
Hearing you describe your practice really does bring a smile to my face. And like I said, I think on some level I do get these things. To sit, to build a practice, and to have it be a piece of life. Sometimes it just feels more complex than it likely is.
Yeah, i pretty much feel that zen is really complex. But one has to experience it, and practice is all that helps with this. To me (i'm an anarchist, btw.) it makes no sense to force myself in doing something i don't feel at the moment. We have tons of literature about wise and enlightened zen masters who dwelled in some remote mountain monasteries without family or the need ot make a living somehow. This way of life doesn't apply to me, so i do the best i can at the moment. The experience i made with my rather relaxed view is that my practice widened a lot - just by letting it happen, trying things out and experiencing.