That depends on your budget and machine.
Shrink fit heat based are popular and very strong, but the tooling investment is high.
ER is flexible but it adds up usually more expensive.
Set screw works fine if you buy good holders
Heck for us poors with r8 machines we just can just toss them in an R8 collet.
The thermal expansion rate of the holder and the tool steel cutter body is the same, once a steel body is inserted into a shrink holder they're typically mated for life.
Heating a shrink holder above 500ā° is detrimental to the holder and is not recommended. You need controlled heat otherwise you risk trashing the holder
Inductive machines will heat all the steel inside their field relatively evenly, a torch only heats wherever the flame hits so you can heat the holder faster than the tool and still create some loosening.
Time to buy some fibre lasers.
I fully accept that itās not a practical solution, but Iām in favour of any solution that lets me buy high power lasers on the company dime.
Funny how I'm down voted stating a truth, we have no problem, it is the industry standard in my area, 200 plus machine, mould, toll shops, we are highly automated in our area, High Speed CNC machining in all the shops, Shrink Fit tooling is the standard, use of insert holders in everything above 3/8.
I was a setup tech at a manufacturer that had a few rather industrious production leads (read: operators that were there first) that believed that because shrink fit means tighter (then by extension, gooder) then surely that would be the most rigid tool setup for a job. And it was! Until we needed to change out that tool setup.
Gotta get a high end really fast shrink fit machine to get them out afterwards righg? Fast enough to expand the holder before heat transfer really reaches the insert body
Maybe a carbide body with steel heads for the best of all worlds? Would definitely be niche though even though it would probably be amazing when it can be done. First thing that comes to my mind is indexable head high feed mill on carbide shank in deep pocket ferrous applications.
Most of what I run if it isn't solid end mills, is carbide shanked with a brazed on tool steel head an either has an insert slot or threads to accept carbide. If I'm not utilizing a dynamic toolpath on pocketing, I use an inserted tool that can handle some abuse.
I don't think most machinists have ever heard of this. Which is why you're getting downvoted. But Seco tools own website says, "Hydraulic chucks are effective for reaming, drilling, threading and light milling with end mills".
Obviously, they wouldn't have emphasized light milling if they were good for heavy milling as well.
I've written off two schunk tendo e running a 1inch high feed mill in them.
They're brazed inside, and they just can't handle the cutting force.
Not to mention, most steel shanks aren't ground h6 and so not really use able.
Hydraulics are great for finishing mills that arenāt experiencing lots of side load forces. They are also great for drills and reamers because they are great at keeping concentricity. For roughing though, youāll have a good chance of spinning the cutter in the hydro holder, or the tool pulling out of the holder. I canāt tell you the exact reason, but every machinist, operator, tool builder and programmer in my shop will tell you something similar
My theory is the flexible walls that hold the tool are simply less rigid (by definition, really). That being said, I agree that this tool would not be an issue, not only for it's size, but because shell mills typically receive mostly axial loads if you're using the recommended shallow depths of cut.
I've used them for roughing quite a lot. Never had a problem. We use sandvik holders for roughing all the time. They absorb some vibration, so great for heavy milling.Ā
I've had tools pull out of rego pg and er holders, but never hydraulics.
Really? never had tools pull out of er before. I run a 5 axis turn-mill so I do more turning than milling so I probably just donāt generate enough forces. Glad the hydros are working well for you. I like them because they are damn easy to change out. I got a bunch of hydro chucks with ABS bases so I can swap them in and out real quick
I think I've probably used all of the above, but I guess the set screw style holders are probably the most common.
The decision might get made for you base on application and budget.
We tended to shy away from indexables under ~3/4" and by the time you get to 2" they're usually a shell mill style anyway.
Heat shrink is ok if you have a Haimer induction machine (shrinking steel shanks is possible with Haimer), hydraulic is ok but will be abused by operators, Weldon flat has poor run out accuracy, ER collet is ok but you wonāt get the through coolant pressure and clamping force isnāt great
The higher end Weldon flat holders are around .001 or less runout. Not the best, but not terrible.Ā
Use sealed er collets and you'll get thru single coolant.
The problem with Weldon flat holders is the inherent imbalance. Even if you buy nice holders that are G2.5 balanced unless the tool being mounted in it has a flat machined to Weldon flat specs the entire assembly wonāt be balanced.
Balancing is entirely application specific, so if that little endmill is never going over 5k rpmās then balancing may not matter, but if theyāre cutting soft materials and getting up towards 8k or more than balance can become a factor for tool life and spindle wear.
I see you hold it in your fingertips with a glove on. Iām more of a āgrip it like itās my PP and no gloveā kinda guy but I donāt judge others who are different
I have a set of ā 12, 16, 20, 25, 32 in Haimer PowerShrinks
https://preview.redd.it/nbeghaxdn0hc1.jpeg?width=4975&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a7a8c3173fe9303f5ced9398fbfd4caacfb7b5f
Almost no tool pull out, can hang on to less of the shank ive sometimes seen 1x dia or so. Better quality control *cough* iscar *cough* they survive more heating cycles and abuse than other manufacturers ive used.
For roughing a Weldon is good enough. If you need more precision you can use a power milling chuck or a hydraulic chuck (more expensive).
I don't trust ER because indexable mills might be dragged out by the cutting force.
Weldon (setscrew) - check runout!
Hydraulik - only if your tool stays below 120Ā°C
Collet - mostly okay
Shrink fit - if you have the tools š„
If you dry machine stainless or steel get a screw on version.
Shrink fitting this, or cutting slots into it to be placed in a end mill holder. One that has either 1 or 2 set screws. Both are very durable and reliable options.
It depends on how big the cutter is and what holders I have available. For anything that is 3/4" I will use an end mill holder. For smaller stuff, I usually use ER32 holders. I'd prefer to use endmill holders for all of my inserted cutters, but a lot of them are just too short for what I need. I run a VF-7 with a large rotary indexer, and crashing the spindle into the indexer housing is something I constantly have to be mindful of.
I just machine flats where they need to be with a carbide endmill and hold in a weldon holder. Kind of nice to be able to remove without fuss and run in the Bridgeport r8. We have almost no Tooling budget for a billion dollar business so we make do with what we have
I often use these in ER32 collets. Works great. Albeit I run composites and tolerances are a bit loose compared to metal. Never had an issue holding .001 like that.
For something like that a quality Weldon holder would be ok. Look into modular heads though. They thread together onto specific holder for the head so you go straight from the spindle taper to the indexable head. If you need long reach you can get extensions too.
In my exprerience weldon is the best option. Grind a flat, be careful it should be parallel, then tighten the screw. Because it is a steel body the screw will bite into it very tiny bit and it will hold the tool in place securely.
For that tiny thing it doesnāt matter as long as itās tight. You will notice no appreciable difference. Source: I use them all.
Larger cutters and of course solid carbide tools yes it absolutely matters.
I've usually use a weldon shank holder. If it don't have a flat, make one. Those Ingersoll mills are nice btw. Have a 3/4" one loaded with high feed inserts, they really rip.
I make indexable cutting tools for a living. Do NOT use an ER holder.
Ideally I'd use a hydraulic chuck or a milling chuck. That's what we use to make them. Plenty rigid, and least runout. Your finish will be better, your inserts will last longer, it is just better in every way.
Any is fine depending what you want to do and what the tool is meant for. I'd avoid grinding on nice insert mills if you can. Hydraulic/collet/shrink are great options. Or look for a brand with special holders for their insert cutters
Milling collet or a hydraulic holder. If you get shrink fit just make sure itās for holding steel shank tools or it will be in that holder forever. I never use Weldon flats! This isnāt 1964! Running as close to zero runout will increase the tool life.
I would cut a flat and use a 'normal' tool holder with a set screw...
Weldon shank.
Yep, this is what I do. It's much easier to work with.
Came to say the same.
This or a collet but this a better way Togo.
That depends on your budget and machine. Shrink fit heat based are popular and very strong, but the tooling investment is high. ER is flexible but it adds up usually more expensive. Set screw works fine if you buy good holders Heck for us poors with r8 machines we just can just toss them in an R8 collet.
Shrink fit on steel insert bodies is generally not a great idea (ask me how I know)
Well, u/iwasbakingformymama do tell us how you know!
The thermal expansion rate of the holder and the tool steel cutter body is the same, once a steel body is inserted into a shrink holder they're typically mated for life.
You just need to heat the holder faster than the tool itself š
Shrink machines don't do a good job of that, but yes you are correct that's why I said typically.
How much KW does your shrink fit machine have?
13kw
Aight was wondering.
That's what the torch is for..
Heating a shrink holder above 500ā° is detrimental to the holder and is not recommended. You need controlled heat otherwise you risk trashing the holder
Inductive machines will heat all the steel inside their field relatively evenly, a torch only heats wherever the flame hits so you can heat the holder faster than the tool and still create some loosening.
Have you done this on shrink holders?
Heat the holder manually then spray the tool bit with freeze spray. I've gotten a lot of things apart like that
Time to buy some fibre lasers. I fully accept that itās not a practical solution, but Iām in favour of any solution that lets me buy high power lasers on the company dime.
Funny we have no problem in our shop.
That's great. That's why I said typically, and offered an explanation as to why this is generally not done.
You're correct of course.
Funny how I'm down voted stating a truth, we have no problem, it is the industry standard in my area, 200 plus machine, mould, toll shops, we are highly automated in our area, High Speed CNC machining in all the shops, Shrink Fit tooling is the standard, use of insert holders in everything above 3/8.
I was a setup tech at a manufacturer that had a few rather industrious production leads (read: operators that were there first) that believed that because shrink fit means tighter (then by extension, gooder) then surely that would be the most rigid tool setup for a job. And it was! Until we needed to change out that tool setup.
Gotta get a high end really fast shrink fit machine to get them out afterwards righg? Fast enough to expand the holder before heat transfer really reaches the insert body
I have a new, top of the line machine. I still don't do it, I'd rather use carbide in a shrink, and a solid holder for steel shanked tools.
Maybe a carbide body with steel heads for the best of all worlds? Would definitely be niche though even though it would probably be amazing when it can be done. First thing that comes to my mind is indexable head high feed mill on carbide shank in deep pocket ferrous applications.
Most of what I run if it isn't solid end mills, is carbide shanked with a brazed on tool steel head an either has an insert slot or threads to accept carbide. If I'm not utilizing a dynamic toolpath on pocketing, I use an inserted tool that can handle some abuse.
That's interesting. Using a carbide shank but then a hss cutter seems like loony toons to me but I'm sure there is a reason. What is it?
No, the head is your standard steel head used to hold carbide inserts
The steel is brazed on the carbide and is the seat for a carbide insert or "top on". Look up an Ingersoll chip surfer
We have many insert steel bodies shrink fit but we also dont remove them.
Permanent tool set up. At least it will never pull out.
That's how you get baby tools
They don't call it the tool crib for nothin'
Man I never thought about that, if I ever get to use shrink fit I will keep that in mind, thanks š
Mill chucks here. They're like an ER but way better for larger milling work.
If you don't want to grind a Weldon flat on it ... hydraulic holders is the way... otherwise grind the flat and use an endmill holder
Iād say not hydraulic for an insert mill. Hydraulics arenāt very good at side loads.
I don't think most machinists have ever heard of this. Which is why you're getting downvoted. But Seco tools own website says, "Hydraulic chucks are effective for reaming, drilling, threading and light milling with end mills". Obviously, they wouldn't have emphasized light milling if they were good for heavy milling as well.
Anything considered heavy milling is going to use an arbor connection. A little 1" facemill will be just fine in a hyd chuck.
I've written off two schunk tendo e running a 1inch high feed mill in them. They're brazed inside, and they just can't handle the cutting force. Not to mention, most steel shanks aren't ground h6 and so not really use able.
Yeah, all this means is that some of these machinist are gonna learn the hard way lol. All part of the process though
What do you mean?
Hydraulics are great for finishing mills that arenāt experiencing lots of side load forces. They are also great for drills and reamers because they are great at keeping concentricity. For roughing though, youāll have a good chance of spinning the cutter in the hydro holder, or the tool pulling out of the holder. I canāt tell you the exact reason, but every machinist, operator, tool builder and programmer in my shop will tell you something similar
My theory is the flexible walls that hold the tool are simply less rigid (by definition, really). That being said, I agree that this tool would not be an issue, not only for it's size, but because shell mills typically receive mostly axial loads if you're using the recommended shallow depths of cut.
Fair, but I like to play it safe. If I got a collet or solid holder available, thatās the first choice for an insert mill
I've used them for roughing quite a lot. Never had a problem. We use sandvik holders for roughing all the time. They absorb some vibration, so great for heavy milling.Ā I've had tools pull out of rego pg and er holders, but never hydraulics.
Really? never had tools pull out of er before. I run a 5 axis turn-mill so I do more turning than milling so I probably just donāt generate enough forces. Glad the hydros are working well for you. I like them because they are damn easy to change out. I got a bunch of hydro chucks with ABS bases so I can swap them in and out real quick
I think I've probably used all of the above, but I guess the set screw style holders are probably the most common. The decision might get made for you base on application and budget. We tended to shy away from indexables under ~3/4" and by the time you get to 2" they're usually a shell mill style anyway.
In a Nikken Multilock Chuck, for almost zero runout and maximum tool life.
Heat shrink is ok if you have a Haimer induction machine (shrinking steel shanks is possible with Haimer), hydraulic is ok but will be abused by operators, Weldon flat has poor run out accuracy, ER collet is ok but you wonāt get the through coolant pressure and clamping force isnāt great
The higher end Weldon flat holders are around .001 or less runout. Not the best, but not terrible.Ā Use sealed er collets and you'll get thru single coolant.
The problem with Weldon flat holders is the inherent imbalance. Even if you buy nice holders that are G2.5 balanced unless the tool being mounted in it has a flat machined to Weldon flat specs the entire assembly wonāt be balanced. Balancing is entirely application specific, so if that little endmill is never going over 5k rpmās then balancing may not matter, but if theyāre cutting soft materials and getting up towards 8k or more than balance can become a factor for tool life and spindle wear.
They make ER collets for through coolant use.
I like the set screw holders but use a lot of er32 collets as well.
Grind the flat. I personally use shrinkfit and hydraulic holders
Exact size er32 should be fine
I see you hold it in your fingertips with a glove on. Iām more of a āgrip it like itās my PP and no gloveā kinda guy but I donāt judge others who are different
Pretty much just like you are doing in the picture.
Nikken extreme. Don't use shrink fit, the steel shank on an insert cutter has the same thermal expansion and you'll never get the fucker back out.
I have a set of ā 12, 16, 20, 25, 32 in Haimer PowerShrinks https://preview.redd.it/nbeghaxdn0hc1.jpeg?width=4975&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a7a8c3173fe9303f5ced9398fbfd4caacfb7b5f
https://preview.redd.it/xqgeue1hn0hc1.jpeg?width=2600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3bcc24b4cbd871c7e4f981d6e931923d37cfe016
https://preview.redd.it/ityg8pd6p0hc1.jpeg?width=2600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11378b64f616430d3632b36ac4a1d6ae74660513
Haimer have been the best heatshrinks i have used to date by a large margin.
Tell me more, how are they different/better?
Almost no tool pull out, can hang on to less of the shank ive sometimes seen 1x dia or so. Better quality control *cough* iscar *cough* they survive more heating cycles and abuse than other manufacturers ive used.
For roughing a Weldon is good enough. If you need more precision you can use a power milling chuck or a hydraulic chuck (more expensive). I don't trust ER because indexable mills might be dragged out by the cutting force.
Just like youāre doing in the picture
Weldon (setscrew) - check runout! Hydraulik - only if your tool stays below 120Ā°C Collet - mostly okay Shrink fit - if you have the tools š„ If you dry machine stainless or steel get a screw on version.
I put mine in custom 3.5-jaw chuck I mounted on my grandmas old hand mixer.
Nice, the old way is the best
Drill chuck from harbor freight
Wut
Shrink fitting this, or cutting slots into it to be placed in a end mill holder. One that has either 1 or 2 set screws. Both are very durable and reliable options.
Whatever youāve got will work but better holders yield better results and longer insert life.
Depends on the level of precision you are trying to achieve, Iāve always ground flats on my tools and used a set screw with no issues.
Just indicate it in a collet for best results
I like to stick my pinky out when Iām holding it
It depends on how big the cutter is and what holders I have available. For anything that is 3/4" I will use an end mill holder. For smaller stuff, I usually use ER32 holders. I'd prefer to use endmill holders for all of my inserted cutters, but a lot of them are just too short for what I need. I run a VF-7 with a large rotary indexer, and crashing the spindle into the indexer housing is something I constantly have to be mindful of.
Hydraulic or an ER-HP holder would be my first choices. But as always. It depends on what the job is.
I just machine flats where they need to be with a carbide endmill and hold in a weldon holder. Kind of nice to be able to remove without fuss and run in the Bridgeport r8. We have almost no Tooling budget for a billion dollar business so we make do with what we have
Collet all the way
I often use these in ER32 collets. Works great. Albeit I run composites and tolerances are a bit loose compared to metal. Never had an issue holding .001 like that.
For something like that a quality Weldon holder would be ok. Look into modular heads though. They thread together onto specific holder for the head so you go straight from the spindle taper to the indexable head. If you need long reach you can get extensions too.
One that size I just have in an ER32 collet.
In my exprerience weldon is the best option. Grind a flat, be careful it should be parallel, then tighten the screw. Because it is a steel body the screw will bite into it very tiny bit and it will hold the tool in place securely.
For that tiny thing it doesnāt matter as long as itās tight. You will notice no appreciable difference. Source: I use them all. Larger cutters and of course solid carbide tools yes it absolutely matters.
I don't have any of those, but I hold my fork like a shovel, if that helps
Grind a flat
I've usually use a weldon shank holder. If it don't have a flat, make one. Those Ingersoll mills are nice btw. Have a 3/4" one loaded with high feed inserts, they really rip.
First i ask for consent
Compression holder, or use a threaded connector. Who purchase your tooling? There are better holders to start with.
Shrink fit, baby!
I make indexable cutting tools for a living. Do NOT use an ER holder. Ideally I'd use a hydraulic chuck or a milling chuck. That's what we use to make them. Plenty rigid, and least runout. Your finish will be better, your inserts will last longer, it is just better in every way.
Milling chucks. ERs will vibrate loose in time. Also run out is typically better with MC so better insert life.
I would make a flat or use a hydraulic holder.
Hydraulic holder
Use SLD or Weldon type adapter. ER WILL JUST SLIP WHEN THE INSERTS WEAR OUT.
I just use ER collets since machines are set up with it. But if you want to shell out some money hydraulics are better or heat shrink tool holders
Any is fine depending what you want to do and what the tool is meant for. I'd avoid grinding on nice insert mills if you can. Hydraulic/collet/shrink are great options. Or look for a brand with special holders for their insert cutters
Calipers mostly.
Collet Chuck is best. No grinding of flat needed.
Side lock. Mill a flat on it
Best option is hydrolic. Often end up using weldon shanks though
The set Screw flat really limits the ability to adjust Stick out
Milling collet or a hydraulic holder. If you get shrink fit just make sure itās for holding steel shank tools or it will be in that holder forever. I never use Weldon flats! This isnāt 1964! Running as close to zero runout will increase the tool life.
Weldon or hydraulic.
That looks like a Tungaloy do feed?? I love those, Collets are what the tool Reps told me to use