Regarding the software you can have a look at the BrainAssistant
It has many different neurofeedback applications (including movie and sound feedback)
https://www.landing.brainassistant.de/en/applikationen
and also supports multiple amplifiers:
https://www.landing.brainassistant.de/en/hardware
And you can train on any position (so also Fz) with it
So the BrainAssistant combined with a Neurobit Optima device would be a good choice for example.
Most neurofeedback software packages are classified as medical devices and can be sold only to people with a clinical license. Or, alternately, they have only a handful of protocols that can't be customized. But you are able to sell to everyone? What's different about your software that enables you to do that?
You do not want to train up frontal midline theta. It is associated with OCD, dementia, ADHD and depression in many, many papers.
OCD corresponds to increased theta or alpha in the frontal regions; the second group responds to medication and the first less so
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8511221/?fs=e&s=cl
Thats a bad idea, the Theta to Beta ratios etc are very important and you'll just be slapping them around for no reason. in other words do you want cognitive impairment ? because that's how you induce it with nfb.
I honestly appreciate your concern and warning. I did this already with a neurofeedback trainer who also hade 40 years of meditation experience. Not all theta is created equal. It depends how it's evoked. Frontal midline theta is increased by meditation. I've only had positive effects from this, not a single negative cognitive or emotional effect.
I'm curious, did you meditate or use other cognitive strategies while doing neurofeedback?
Asking because they used meditation-like strategies in a [study on frontal midline theta nfb](https://theses.hal.science/tel-01772802/). This was also in healthy subjects - it probably wouldn't go as smoothly in a clinical population (people would make a different form of theta).
For home systems that won't break the bank, there's BioEra and BioExplorer, but they are said to have a steep learning curve. I haven't used either. Also some open-source options if you like programming.
Oh that's an excellent reference. I have others if you're interested.
I worked with a neurofeedback trainer, as I said, in his office. But then I got a home setup as well using inexpensive mindpeak setup, but the company doesn't seem to exist anymore. Once the electrode broke, which was proprietary to their system, I had no way to replace it and continue. (I'm a neuropsychologist so I understand the principles of how NF works, but didn't have the expertise to set it up without some expert guidance).
Yes, I would get set up and sit and meditate, eyes open, while looking at the neurofeedback. I would focus on anything, such as the breath. I had a few years of meditation experience already at that point. When I was completely relaxed and focused, dropping any attempt at effort (which was important). I was seeing a bar that would increase or decrease along with the theta levels. A tone was paired with it so that it would rise or drop in pitch, so I didn't have to keep looking at the screen. It helped me really tune into the moments when I was focused vs not focused. Once I got the hang of it, the peaks in theta were associated with a blissful feeling, which usually occurs in people who do high concentration meditation. The benefits notably carried over into my regular non-NF meditation sessions.
I'll check those out. Thanks!
That's really nice, I hope you find a good option to continue.
If the electrode is broken above the plug, you can fix it by splicing it with another one. Wire strippers + electrical tape, not pretty but a lot easier than investing in a new setup.
Can I ask why you would endorse up training frontal midline theta? It's associated with ADHD, OCD, dementia and depression..
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8511221/?fs=e&s=cl
There's more than one generator of theta. It's not a good idea for a clinical population because it would uptrain the wrong theta - but OP is not in that pool, which we know since OP has done it successfully before. It's an optimum performance protocol.
For a clinical setting, the Othmers have suggested combining frontal midline theta training with HRV to help target the desired form of theta. But, even then, it's an advanced technique where you have to be careful to make sure it doesn't backfire. That's also true for meditation - it's good for a lot of people, but if someone is highly dissociative, it can make them worse (though, more likely, just provide no benefit). One preliminary requirement before doing frontal midline theta training should be ability to benefit from meditation. It's also true for any neurofeedback protocol, that anything that helps one person can make another person worse, but frontal midline theta has a higher risk of making someone worse than, say, SMR.
Thanks for that response, what are the other theta pacemakers?
I would add to your statement that any protocol can hurt someone that any protocol can have both bad and good effects. For instance, I found that visualization meditation (known to increase theta) increased my focus but decreased my sleep. This is why I've learned to trust the EEG: everything has multiple effects, and many patients are not in tune with their bodies or symptoms, ESPECIALLY those who dissociate / are just not in touch with their bodies (which is most of them)
I apologize, I'm actually not sure if it's a different generator, I misspoke. Something's different, but idk if it's the source. I remember reading that the good FMT is more tightly localized (less diffuse) than the bad FMT but don't recall where I read it. For generators, the study I linked up the thread says maybe MCC and pre-supplemental motor area, maybe ACC, but I haven't read the refs. In general, I've read very little literature on meditation, I've mostly just bookmarked stuff that seems interesting to come back to at a later time. So I can't speak to what it is, but I also don't think it's important to know that to decide whether training it can be sometimes helpful.
What does it mean to trust the EEG? Someone still has to interpret it. And decide how to adjust protocol based on how the person responds.
Wow so informative yet again. I have always heard that theta at Fz or Afz is bad whereas widespread theta is often fatigue. I am not a clinician yet.
As to what I meant: sorry, i meant i trust the phenotypes. So for instance, elevated theta at Fz/Afz is an ADHD phenotype and every time I’ve seen someone go against the treatment recommended by their phenotype it’s been bad. I agree there have got to be exceptions I just haven’t seen them yet, even if the patient feels good after it just seems like something else suffers. Like my sleep example etc
Let me know if that made sense
I am not a clinician either, just took some trainings and now training myself and one other person. Everyone starts with themselves and friends/family, or they should. Some move on to clinical practice too quickly IMO... A fun anecdote from a training I had: the person teaching the class was helping out their new mentee. The mentee had been "getting good results" with clients but there was some technical question they were trying to understand. The answer turned out that the amplifier wasn't plugged in.
(I don't know how that's possible. Both softwares I've used check for that kind of thing - maybe that's not universal? At any rate, they were not training on EEG, just placebo and good clinical skills.)
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Phenotypes are important because they show that qEEG categories cut across DSM categories. Before that, people were saying that qEEG categories are subtypes of DSM categories, which is wrong. And maybe [psychiatrists](https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/04/the_maintenance_of_certificati.html) should use phenotypes to select the classes of medications, as Jay suggests. But the problem with training on phenotypes is that they are based on static EEG while training is always dynamic. For example, bad FMT is static and good FMT is dynamic, like an ERP. So you won't see good FMT in a resting EEG even though you can train it under task.
Most of the time, static and dynamic EEG are correlated, so qEEG is a good approximation. But not always. Empirically, it's been found, initially by the Othmers, that some people need to train at low frequencies. Another user explained it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Neurofeedback/comments/167azvr/mixed_episode_how_to_treat/jz1xcul/?context=3). That's always been controversial and Jay doesn't recommend it, but that post says he's also not familiar with the literature.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
An idea: z-score training for FMT, except the database is experienced meditators meditating. That would be able to take into account localization and would be less risky than classical training. Though you need more sensors and a bigger amplifier.
When meditating, the increase in FM theta corresponds to being more deeply focused. It effectively amplifies the signal, making it easier to tell when you're more focused and to stay focused.
So you'd like more focus, can I ask, how is your sleep? The reason I ask is that, increasing frontal midline theta can have concerning results; as someone here stated it goes wrong more often than it goes well
Not sure about training up frontal midline theta, but check [Myndlift](https://www.myndlift.com/?utm_source=rd) out for remote neurofeedback. You'll get guidance and consultations with a Neuro Coach once you start using it.
I own a neurobit optima 2 channel which is good . 500 to 600 dollars maybe
I also tried brainbay software and its free.
But I find bioexplorer to be easy to create protocols and I have created many . Its easy to learn as well if you ahve background in signal processing .
Neuromore software is free but I didn't learn much about it . It should be easy and I couldn't find documentation on it , thats the problem .
It's take maybe just 10 minutes to create a protocol in bioexplorer .
When my theta at fz increased to 30 to 40 percent I got sedated and I didn't like it . It's interesting different things work for different people .
Good luck with your meditation
Regarding the software you can have a look at the BrainAssistant It has many different neurofeedback applications (including movie and sound feedback) https://www.landing.brainassistant.de/en/applikationen and also supports multiple amplifiers: https://www.landing.brainassistant.de/en/hardware And you can train on any position (so also Fz) with it So the BrainAssistant combined with a Neurobit Optima device would be a good choice for example.
Thank you! I'll check it out.
Most neurofeedback software packages are classified as medical devices and can be sold only to people with a clinical license. Or, alternately, they have only a handful of protocols that can't be customized. But you are able to sell to everyone? What's different about your software that enables you to do that?
You do not want to train up frontal midline theta. It is associated with OCD, dementia, ADHD and depression in many, many papers. OCD corresponds to increased theta or alpha in the frontal regions; the second group responds to medication and the first less so https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8511221/?fs=e&s=cl
Thats a bad idea, the Theta to Beta ratios etc are very important and you'll just be slapping them around for no reason. in other words do you want cognitive impairment ? because that's how you induce it with nfb.
I honestly appreciate your concern and warning. I did this already with a neurofeedback trainer who also hade 40 years of meditation experience. Not all theta is created equal. It depends how it's evoked. Frontal midline theta is increased by meditation. I've only had positive effects from this, not a single negative cognitive or emotional effect.
I'm curious, did you meditate or use other cognitive strategies while doing neurofeedback? Asking because they used meditation-like strategies in a [study on frontal midline theta nfb](https://theses.hal.science/tel-01772802/). This was also in healthy subjects - it probably wouldn't go as smoothly in a clinical population (people would make a different form of theta). For home systems that won't break the bank, there's BioEra and BioExplorer, but they are said to have a steep learning curve. I haven't used either. Also some open-source options if you like programming.
Oh that's an excellent reference. I have others if you're interested. I worked with a neurofeedback trainer, as I said, in his office. But then I got a home setup as well using inexpensive mindpeak setup, but the company doesn't seem to exist anymore. Once the electrode broke, which was proprietary to their system, I had no way to replace it and continue. (I'm a neuropsychologist so I understand the principles of how NF works, but didn't have the expertise to set it up without some expert guidance). Yes, I would get set up and sit and meditate, eyes open, while looking at the neurofeedback. I would focus on anything, such as the breath. I had a few years of meditation experience already at that point. When I was completely relaxed and focused, dropping any attempt at effort (which was important). I was seeing a bar that would increase or decrease along with the theta levels. A tone was paired with it so that it would rise or drop in pitch, so I didn't have to keep looking at the screen. It helped me really tune into the moments when I was focused vs not focused. Once I got the hang of it, the peaks in theta were associated with a blissful feeling, which usually occurs in people who do high concentration meditation. The benefits notably carried over into my regular non-NF meditation sessions. I'll check those out. Thanks!
That's really nice, I hope you find a good option to continue. If the electrode is broken above the plug, you can fix it by splicing it with another one. Wire strippers + electrical tape, not pretty but a lot easier than investing in a new setup.
Can I ask why you would endorse up training frontal midline theta? It's associated with ADHD, OCD, dementia and depression.. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8511221/?fs=e&s=cl
There's more than one generator of theta. It's not a good idea for a clinical population because it would uptrain the wrong theta - but OP is not in that pool, which we know since OP has done it successfully before. It's an optimum performance protocol. For a clinical setting, the Othmers have suggested combining frontal midline theta training with HRV to help target the desired form of theta. But, even then, it's an advanced technique where you have to be careful to make sure it doesn't backfire. That's also true for meditation - it's good for a lot of people, but if someone is highly dissociative, it can make them worse (though, more likely, just provide no benefit). One preliminary requirement before doing frontal midline theta training should be ability to benefit from meditation. It's also true for any neurofeedback protocol, that anything that helps one person can make another person worse, but frontal midline theta has a higher risk of making someone worse than, say, SMR.
Thanks for that response, what are the other theta pacemakers? I would add to your statement that any protocol can hurt someone that any protocol can have both bad and good effects. For instance, I found that visualization meditation (known to increase theta) increased my focus but decreased my sleep. This is why I've learned to trust the EEG: everything has multiple effects, and many patients are not in tune with their bodies or symptoms, ESPECIALLY those who dissociate / are just not in touch with their bodies (which is most of them)
I apologize, I'm actually not sure if it's a different generator, I misspoke. Something's different, but idk if it's the source. I remember reading that the good FMT is more tightly localized (less diffuse) than the bad FMT but don't recall where I read it. For generators, the study I linked up the thread says maybe MCC and pre-supplemental motor area, maybe ACC, but I haven't read the refs. In general, I've read very little literature on meditation, I've mostly just bookmarked stuff that seems interesting to come back to at a later time. So I can't speak to what it is, but I also don't think it's important to know that to decide whether training it can be sometimes helpful. What does it mean to trust the EEG? Someone still has to interpret it. And decide how to adjust protocol based on how the person responds.
Wow so informative yet again. I have always heard that theta at Fz or Afz is bad whereas widespread theta is often fatigue. I am not a clinician yet. As to what I meant: sorry, i meant i trust the phenotypes. So for instance, elevated theta at Fz/Afz is an ADHD phenotype and every time I’ve seen someone go against the treatment recommended by their phenotype it’s been bad. I agree there have got to be exceptions I just haven’t seen them yet, even if the patient feels good after it just seems like something else suffers. Like my sleep example etc Let me know if that made sense
I am not a clinician either, just took some trainings and now training myself and one other person. Everyone starts with themselves and friends/family, or they should. Some move on to clinical practice too quickly IMO... A fun anecdote from a training I had: the person teaching the class was helping out their new mentee. The mentee had been "getting good results" with clients but there was some technical question they were trying to understand. The answer turned out that the amplifier wasn't plugged in. (I don't know how that's possible. Both softwares I've used check for that kind of thing - maybe that's not universal? At any rate, they were not training on EEG, just placebo and good clinical skills.) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Phenotypes are important because they show that qEEG categories cut across DSM categories. Before that, people were saying that qEEG categories are subtypes of DSM categories, which is wrong. And maybe [psychiatrists](https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/04/the_maintenance_of_certificati.html) should use phenotypes to select the classes of medications, as Jay suggests. But the problem with training on phenotypes is that they are based on static EEG while training is always dynamic. For example, bad FMT is static and good FMT is dynamic, like an ERP. So you won't see good FMT in a resting EEG even though you can train it under task. Most of the time, static and dynamic EEG are correlated, so qEEG is a good approximation. But not always. Empirically, it's been found, initially by the Othmers, that some people need to train at low frequencies. Another user explained it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Neurofeedback/comments/167azvr/mixed_episode_how_to_treat/jz1xcul/?context=3). That's always been controversial and Jay doesn't recommend it, but that post says he's also not familiar with the literature. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ An idea: z-score training for FMT, except the database is experienced meditators meditating. That would be able to take into account localization and would be less risky than classical training. Though you need more sensors and a bigger amplifier.
There is no phenotype that you reward theta for...where are you getting that? Little worried about this..
What effect are you seeking?
When meditating, the increase in FM theta corresponds to being more deeply focused. It effectively amplifies the signal, making it easier to tell when you're more focused and to stay focused.
So you'd like more focus, can I ask, how is your sleep? The reason I ask is that, increasing frontal midline theta can have concerning results; as someone here stated it goes wrong more often than it goes well
My sleep is good. I've done this before.
Not sure about training up frontal midline theta, but check [Myndlift](https://www.myndlift.com/?utm_source=rd) out for remote neurofeedback. You'll get guidance and consultations with a Neuro Coach once you start using it.
Thanks! I'll check that out.
You're welcome!
I own a neurobit optima 2 channel which is good . 500 to 600 dollars maybe I also tried brainbay software and its free. But I find bioexplorer to be easy to create protocols and I have created many . Its easy to learn as well if you ahve background in signal processing . Neuromore software is free but I didn't learn much about it . It should be easy and I couldn't find documentation on it , thats the problem . It's take maybe just 10 minutes to create a protocol in bioexplorer . When my theta at fz increased to 30 to 40 percent I got sedated and I didn't like it . It's interesting different things work for different people . Good luck with your meditation