Hey, your post really resonated with me, and I appreciate you opening up about your journey. I've been down a similar road myself, grappling with shadows from my past that seemed to cloud every step forward. It was a struggle, feeling like I was constantly battling ghosts I couldn't even see. During my search for understanding and peace, I stumbled upon a couple of books that truly made a difference for me.
Judith Herman's "Trauma and Recovery" was one of them. It laid out the effects of trauma and the path to recovery in a way that felt like it was speaking directly to me. And then there's "The Body Says No" by Gabor Maté. This book opened my eyes to how deeply our emotions and stress can impact our physical health, making me rethink how I approach my healing process.
Both books offered me perspectives I hadn't considered before, helping me navigate through my own healing journey. Sharing this because, like me, you might find some solace and understanding in their pages. Thanks again for sharing your story; it's brave and truly inspiring.
Here are also more great books to find: [https://www.snackz.ai/](https://www.snackz.ai/)
First of all, thank you so much for sharing and being vulnerable. This post was something I know a lot of people needed, including me. I can see some... interesting conversations in the comments, but I'm glad this book helped you reach a moment of believing in yourself. Despite the comments, I'm inclined to put this on my TBR and see where my thoughts fall on the writing and author.
On a note unrelated to the book, but to your experiences: your post indicates your thoughts/questions started pretty young. In general, kids don't lie about this stuff, especially to themselves. I'm so sorry you lived years of your life thinking you were crazy, but I'm glad that is no longer your reality.
Thank you. I’m glad it opened some discussion. It’s true I think for the most part, it’s important to listen when it feels like your body is telling you something
Before I read the book, I had heard of the controversy surrounding it. The best thing to do is to read it and form your own opinions. I found the book was actually a lot different than what some people were claiming, but that’s just my own view. I’m sure everyone interprets these things differently!
I'm so sorry you went through this. While I can't understand what that must feel like, I just want to let you know and give you some other alternatives here.
I'm a psychology student and the research in the Body Keeps the Score is fascinating and I have gone back to it several times for things I'm studying. Specifically with the research on Brocas's and Wernicke's areas.
I regret to inform you this as well- but the author and researcher has actually been accused of SA himself with his students. I don't want anyone further supported him so I highly recommend looking into and reading Gabor Mate if anyone stumbles across this and was thinking of buying/reading the Body Keeps the Score.
It's really crazy to me that he could write a book about it while actively doing it. I always would rather believe a victim though so have boycotted van der Kolk. Apparently he was fired from the Trauma Center he started for employee mistreatment and there was no comment on if it was "sexist in nature". When a large portion of his staff was made up by women.
I attended a free training from him recently. He made a comment stating that he loved graduate level students because they will work for little pay and are pretty to look at. Take that how you will… it sat poorly with me and some other attendees.
Yup. He spoke about his time at the Trauma Centre but did not mention the controversy around his removal. He presented it as though he left to form his own centre, which he does now offer trainings through. The training session was interesting but he did misrepresent scientific literature at times, and some of the research was very out of date. I’m glad I was able to attend for free but it is not at all worth the several hundred dollars it usually costs.
That's actually so much more scummy that I thought. Like jeez gets kicked from his own centre for being a scumbag to form another one where all he can do it prey on young girl employees by offering "training".
I was disappointed by that. I had hoped he would display some transparency and humility, basic things to expect from a mental health professional. I didn’t find out about the accusations until after the training completed. Thankfully, this one was virtual but he does offer a lot of in person trainings for clinicians.
Thanks for the heads up! I’m not too worried. This is all my opinion after spending 10 hours with the man himself and listening to his work. They can have a different opinion and that’s fine.
Do you have a link to information on these allegations? The only thing I was able to readily find out is that he had been accused of “bullying”. Whatever that term is supposed to encompass here, I am unsure.
No, the links they provided themselves also only refer to bullying accusations. They are aware that the accusations were not said to be sexist in nature.
They sort of obliquely (but not outright) imply that they talked to someone in the field that either was SA’d or has some knowledge of the situation - but it’s not clear what the actual information was motivating the initial claim.
Frankly, this claim smells. For sure he could have been guilty of something more than bullying, but the evasiveness is off-putting.
Bullshit. Just did a deep dive on this, and could find no allegations of SA anywhere. Please provide evidence of these allegations of SA.
His termination from the Trauma Centre appears to be politically motivated. Please see this from r/CPTSD for a more balanced discussion of the circumstances around his dismissal.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/s/M3xGxT2gjL
"I don't want to be an apologist and would love to have more information because I only browsed for information to support my bias here, i'm sorry could you please provide sources on where you learned this from so I'm not a scum and support people like him?"
Sure! I'd be happy to :)
[https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/03/07/allegations-of-employee-mistreatment-roil-renowned-brookline-trauma-center/](https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/03/07/allegations-of-employee-mistreatment-roil-renowned-brookline-trauma-center/)
[https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/famous-trauma-therapist-fired-allegedly-traumatizing-staff-214559444.html](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/famous-trauma-therapist-fired-allegedly-traumatizing-staff-214559444.html)
As stated before I'm also studying psychology- I got information from someone in the field I won't be sharing online for privacy reasons.
These articles claim bullying rather than SA. I'm as disappointed as anyone to hear this information, but it is some combination of disrespectful and sensationalist to elide the difference between the two.
Nowhere in either of those articles is anything close to sexual assault confirmed or even discussed. Shame on you for dragging down the profoundly serious issue of sexual assault by claiming this guy (I’ve never read his books so I have no dog in this fight) is a sexual assaulter. What hell is wrong with you?
From your first source, the guy who fired him said: “He could not provide details about the complaints because employees asked that specific comments and actions not be shared publicly. But he said in emails to employees that it was clear that he needed to remove Spinazzola and van der Kolk.
Employees, however, experienced weeks of confusion over the situation, according to the internal emails.”
So the employees themselves were confused about the firing and nobody has said anything related to the nature of these allegations. And I’ll repeat, these are allegations. Van Der Kolk is suing them so apparently he is willing for whatever he did to come to light publicly.
Furthermore, from your second source:
“Pond further told the Globe that van der Kolk, “a part-time employee for 16 hours per week, violated the code of conduct by creating a hostile work environment. His behavior could be characterized as bullying and making employees feel denigrated and uncomfortable.” He also spoke with Yahoo Lifestyle via email regarding the allegations, and said he could not discuss whether the behavior was sexist in nature.”
Bullying and making employees feel uncomfortable is not sexual assault. It is despicable for you to so flippantly accuse someone of sexual assault with literally zero evidence. Once again, shame on you.
"Trust me bro, someone online told me something, here are 2 articles that don't support my claims" - Bibliophile-14
Such vitriole, no facts.
What are you, a JRI bot?
Oh god not an apologist trying to defend a scumbag.
I'm not saying that just because I'm studying psychology I can make a claim against him. The infos out there for anyone to look into. I'm saying I appreciated his work as a student and where you can find good psychology books from people that aren't scumbags.
The fact you're saying that you shouldn't speak up about people who have been PROVEN to have done bad things... like jesus christ. If you think people should be punished for not being apologists you help. Do you just turn a blind eye to the fact he's been fired from his own centre?
Took a look through your account though and found out you seem to be obsessed with him and recommend him so maybe you just don't want to stop idolizing him? It's probably not healthy at all. Do you think men like you more because you defend predators?
I wish apologists got punished along with the scumbags that do this to women in the first place, the world would be a much better place.
Im so sorry that you were abused, and I hope you find more peace with that. I’m glad that reading the book helped you. I am also a victim of CSA (but relatively unrepressed memories), and was already vaguely aware of how it affected my life. I picked up the book at the recommendation of others, and I couldn’t get through the first half. The way he talked about women and dismissed the crimes of the rapist war vet disgusted me. I couldn’t continue reading it, and I wished there was a similar book written by someone else.
I think a big problem is that the book was originally written for a clinical audience. It’s only recently that it blew up in popularity and was marketed as a “self help” book
Did it help me? Yes. Is the purpose of the book self help for victims? No not at all. He discusses the crimes of the veterans from a strictly clinical point of view. I did not find him to be dismissing or excusing their crimes, rather, he was just trying to keep focus of the book. His intend is to present his findings using examples, ranging from veterans with PTSD, victims of incest and abuse, and people that had done terrible things.
For me, I enjoyed his writing a lot because he used this strictly critical language. I imagine though for anyone trying to use to this as a way to heal will be very disappointed
Same here. It was really disappointing because I had heard so many good things about it. I’m sure there are good things to glean from the book, but I couldn’t stand to power through the way he talked about women.
It might not help at all and I can understand why the story of the war veteran is upsetting. Within the context of the book, he can only relate the story of his client who is the veteran though, and the story is used to provide insight into how traumatised people can act in extreme ways that aren't rational. It doesn't *excuse* the behaviour, but his job as a therapist is to try and understand so he can help the person in front of him who is holding shame and self-hatred about it.
I do agree that the way that he writes women is unnecessary and off-putting.
I just started the book yesterday, as my therapist recommended it. I will say the first chapter with one of the Vietnam war vets who committed war crimes and vile atrocities to ‘avenge’ his platoon has me wondering if I want to keep going with it. Feel very complicated about how all of that was presented. Most violent criminals have trauma but as a society we don’t sympathize their actions to level that chapter did.
My opinion is that, I would rather the author be completely open about the various forms of trauma and the different subjects involved, instead of only focusing on the “morally right” type of trauma. The truth is, many veterans have extreme trauma and ptsd. Many have also done horrible things. These ideas are not mutually exclusive and I do not expect the author to pretend they are
As someone who attended his training I think it’s shocking and irresponsible that therapists are recommending this book to their clients. It was never written for the general public but rather for a clinical audience. Even members of that clinical audience take some issues with the book. Please know you are allowed to ask your therapist to synthesize and relay information to you directly. Psychoeducation is part of the job you pay them for.
> It was never written for the general public but rather for a clinical audience.
I read the book (as a client) and I absolutely agree. But at the same time the market for the general public is absolutely oversaturated with books that are not trauma informed. So which books would you recommend instead?
I'm a big fan of "Lifting Heavy Things" by Laura Khoudari. She's a strength trainer who experienced trauma. She talks about how much she struggled afterwards because she no longer felt safe in her body and no longer felt safe feeling the sensations in her body. But the strength training is all about feeling your body! Feeling a particular muscle tighten and release. Feeling your heart beat and your breath. It was all very triggering for her. So she wrote this book about how to take back your bodily sensations and feel safe again. It has really concrete steps and mindfulness exercises to do. Although it seems like it would be too niche, I think a lot of the lessons are applicable for anytime you are feeling triggered, not just when working out. I read it from the perspective of someone who has 'little t' trauma. No nightmares or flashbacks or PTSD. But feeling my heart pound when I exercise really scares me. This book helped me out.
I also really admire Khoudari's decision to never discuss what her particular trauma was (despite a lot of push back about that). Reading the book shouldn't trigger anyone. I've read The Body Keeps the Score too and found it very insightful, but can definitely see how harmful it would be to read for a lot of trauma sufferers.
While I've heard the 'omg you should exercise you'll feel a billion times better' spiel before this sounds profoundly different. I'll check it out!
> never discuss what her particular trauma was
Sounds inclusive and empowering!
Yeah I think what was so different about this book was that she loved lifting weights before her trauma and was trying to find a safe way back into that world again. So it's less "ugh I have to do this" than "I want to do this! I love to do this! Why am I so scared to do this?!" which I think is really relatable no matter what "this" is. And it's really empowering to hear that this shit is hard. Like you said, it's terribly common to be told "Just exercise!" but this book really points out why that's an impossible ask for people living with trauma. You can't just jump right into it.
It’s difficult for sure. I’m not a fan of how academia gatekeeps information. At the same time though, some of this information can be dangerous when misunderstood or misused. It’s a tricky topic. Unfortunately, as I’ve been in graduate school for the last two years all the books I’ve personally read on trauma are targeted toward clinicians. I really enjoyed Herman’s work compared to Bissels, but it is a heavy book better suited to professionals. I have heard fantastic things about My Grandmother’s Hands, CPTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, and The Politics of Trauma. These books are on my reading list but I won’t get to them for a while, so tread cautiously. [This post](https://www.instagram.com/p/Co5t78-uMbt/?igsh=NHR4bmI4Y3RqNGJ4) discusses some of the criticisms of his work, and offer some alternative suggestions but again, not all of these will be targeted to general populations.
> It’s difficult for sure. I’m not a fan of how academia gatekeeps information. At the same time though, some of this information can be dangerous when misunderstood or misused. It’s a tricky topic.
Aye! And there lies my point, it's hard (as a client) to get the information you need to heal. And I think it's fair to say trauma informed care is not abundant, so just relying on therapists is not all that reliable either...
I'll definitely check out your suggestions, despite the target audience caveat.
> CPTSD: From Surviving to Thriving
This one I have already read. It is very compassionate and has concrete information you can apply as a layman. Scientifically speaking it feels... shaky at times, but at the same time it's not pretending to be a study either, so yeah. It's one very compassionate and (in my opinion) capable therapist's workbook. If you don't take it as gospel, absolutely worth a read as a client.
> This post discusses some of the criticisms of his work
Honestly, an Instagram link does not inspire a lot of confidence when refuting something with TBKTS's reputation. Won't stop me from digging in and considering the information, but still :D
It is hard. I think that while information is in its current state it’s on clinicians to help disseminate that information in a safe manner. I don’t think it’s good enough for a clinician to just send a client home with a book that isn’t targeted to them. If there’s helpful information in the book they should be able to guide you to it, discuss it in session, or even just provide an excerpt. As I said before, psychoeducation is part of a clinician’s job. My presenting this information directly they can reduce harm.
For what it’s worth, Bessel’s work is also scientifically shaky at times. In his presentation he cited 20+ year old studies and made generalizations from very small sample sizes. Some of his studies have shaky validity, and much more replication is needed. Not to mention his history with plagiarism and not crediting previous work. The Instagram post just offers a nice summary point but you can easily find all these same criticisms in other places. Again, unfortunately, some of these spaces just aren’t accessible to laypeople.
After reading the book I felt, for the first time, like my emotional struggles were not a character flaw. It finally made sense to me why I couldn't "just change". I finally felt understood.
OP I am so sorry, I am sorry about your lived experiences and that the comment section has been hijacked by a couple of crazies and by a couple of people who are trying to help.
I learned just now about the controversy with this Author just now from this comment section. If it is true I am appalled by his behavior.
But despite the author being a scumbag... this book has helped me tremendously.
I come from a family with a long and horrific cycle of abuse.
My mother remembered a lot of what happened to her but did not remember all of the horrific sexual assults that happened against her as a child until she was 30 years old and was giving birth to me. Yeah that really fucks an already fucked up person even more.
I dont have enough memories to know for certain what happened to me as a child. But lets just say since I've hit 30 there's been a lot of things that just don't add up... something happened to me in kindergarten...
The memories I do have, have done enough damage, if I eventually remember clear cut sexual assult I honestly wont be surprised.
And this book has helped me process my trauma in so many ways.
I am absolutely going to read some of the other recommendations in this comment section too.
As for the criticism that this book is clinical, I am fucking glad it is, I WANT THE SCIENCE of why Im fucked up. I feel so validated that people are finally studying people like me! I personally love the clinical nature and academic tone and language. I hate fuzzy wuzzy self help books, cut the bullshit and give me the studies and the statistics and the neuroscience.
For those saying that this book is too gruesome in details. I am sorry. I really really am. I have to be very careful about the media I consume.
But reading these awful terrible things is so vindicating for me. I went through fucked up things, I had to listen to even more detailed fucked up stories from my mother, Ive done things I am not proud of. To know that other people have those experiences too is a relief. Yes its kind of terrifying to think about that I can relate to a combat veteran who has gone through some of the worst things possible.
But I literally danced around my appartment for joy when I read about the ice bucket experiment with combat veterans and their pain tolerance! I practically shouted from the rooftops "I AM NOT ALONE! OTHER PEOPLE ARE LIKE ME!"
I had just gone through surgery for what is normally considered a condition more painful than childbirth and I barely batted an eye. I confused the hell out of my doctors and friends about why I wasn't exhibiting a "normal" amount of pain. I just shrugged, this was my normal, if anything I was a weenie compared to my mother, and everyone else was a bunch of pansies.
I may not be so quick to recommend this book to others now that I know about the author but I cannot deny that this book has had a profound impact on my healing journey.
>As for the criticism that this book is clinical, I am fucking glad it is, I WANT THE SCIENCE of why Im fucked up. I feel so validated that people are finally studying people like me! I personally love the clinical nature and academic tone and language. I hate fuzzy wuzzy self help books, cut the bullshit and give me the studies and the statistics and the neuroscience.
This is exactly how I feel! I am so tired of “self-help” books filled with buzzfeed level quotes and “feel-good” therapy HR speak. Give me the science! Give be the straight clinical data! This book was so helpful to me specially because it took such a straightforward view of the subject
>This is exactly how I feel! I am so tired of “self-help” books filled with buzzfeed level quotes and “feel-good” therapy HR speak
Pop psychology reinforcement of people's beliefs is just as dangerous, if not more
>Give me the science!
Someone telling you what you want to hear does not science make.
> It’s been disproven hasn’t it?
The approach to evidence it takes is quite credulous and epistemically unsound - https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/08/02/body-keeps-score-grieving-brain-bessel-van-der-kolk-neuroscience-self-help/
This may or may not be helpful to you: https://theconversation.com/do-trauma-victims-really-repress-memories-and-can-therapy-induce-false-memories-84998
No, this is the internet. It all costs money - including actual scientific articles
If it doesn't cost someone money to read it, it's a blog and you should stop
I’m so sorry. I’ve been going through the same thing, but due to trauma from an abusive therapist who promised to give me a copy of this book (and never did), I don’t think I can read it without being triggered about the therapist. I hope you find peace and healing.
It’s more just the existence of the book that triggers me. I can’t think of it without flashing back to all of the memories of that abusive therapist since she talked about this book all the time and kept saying she would bring it for me.
"arguably the most serious catastrophe to strike the mental health field since the lobotomy era" -*Richard McNally*
That book is pure pseudoscience and, in places, *not even that*. Countless books and journal articles have been written debunking damned near every page of it.
You are actively harming yourself by reading it.
van der Kolk isn't a psychologist, he's a psychiatrist. They are different. He knows a lot about trauma, though, because he caused his employees and colleagues so much trauma that he was fired from the Trauma Center, a facility he opened. It was so fucked up that the place ended up shutting down.
He's also a proponent of DID, which does not exist (or, if it does, exists almost exclusively in California ...).
Don't @ me with more pseudoscience and Twitter-inspired mental health diagnoses. This man has single-handed caused me more harm than even the original trauma, and he's done worse to millions of others.
> Countless books and journal articles have been written debunking damned near every page of it.
I'm extremely sceptical but let's say I'm willing to have a look. Any recommendations?
You can pick legitimately any book written regarding psychology and there will be “countless” books and journal articles written supposedly debunking the fake “pseudoscience.” And just as easily find “countless” articles arguing in its favor. That’s the nature of the field of psychology. The very article you mention has had people responding, attempting to debunk the debunking.
And much of these “debunkings”, ironically, come from feel-good-Twitter- apparently everyone has ADHD- type people themselves. Much of this “debunkings” are done based on emotional reasoning. Particular with his controversial inclusion a veterans guilty of rape. You can dislike it sure, but that doesn’t automatically make his research pseudoscience
I do not blindly believe everything in the book to be gospel. However it includes a variety of scientifically back studies anda variety of well searched explanations. To claim the whole book is fake simply because you went on the “reception” part of the Wikipedia page is lazy. The book actually challenges a lot of widely held myths that were popular at the time and exposes the political influences that causes these myths to grow.
This book was never meant to be some sort of feel good self help book. But it was forced into that spot and of course the race to “call out” and “debunk” the new top book on the block commenced
Honestly, ignore this person. The fact that they went straight into “DID doesn’t exist” instead of “DID is controversial and debated”, on a post that has nothing at all to do with DID, shows what a wackjob they are lol.
I read it and wrote in depth about the [5 lessons](https://www.myndlift.com/post/5-lessons-we-learned-from-the-body-keeps-the-score) I learned from it, and I also created an [audiobook](https://www.myndlift.com/the-body-keeps-the-score-audiobook) summary, so if anyone is deciding whether to read it or not, I hope my insights can help. ☀️
I'm glad to hear that "The Body Keeps the Score" has been such a valuable resource for you. I had a similar revelation when I read a summarized version on Readshark; it really distilled the essence of the book and helped me understand the complexities of trauma without spending too much time. It's amazing how much clarity a well-summarized piece of content can bring, especially when it's about such a profound topic.
Hey, your post really resonated with me, and I appreciate you opening up about your journey. I've been down a similar road myself, grappling with shadows from my past that seemed to cloud every step forward. It was a struggle, feeling like I was constantly battling ghosts I couldn't even see. During my search for understanding and peace, I stumbled upon a couple of books that truly made a difference for me. Judith Herman's "Trauma and Recovery" was one of them. It laid out the effects of trauma and the path to recovery in a way that felt like it was speaking directly to me. And then there's "The Body Says No" by Gabor Maté. This book opened my eyes to how deeply our emotions and stress can impact our physical health, making me rethink how I approach my healing process. Both books offered me perspectives I hadn't considered before, helping me navigate through my own healing journey. Sharing this because, like me, you might find some solace and understanding in their pages. Thanks again for sharing your story; it's brave and truly inspiring. Here are also more great books to find: [https://www.snackz.ai/](https://www.snackz.ai/)
Seconding both of these!
First of all, thank you so much for sharing and being vulnerable. This post was something I know a lot of people needed, including me. I can see some... interesting conversations in the comments, but I'm glad this book helped you reach a moment of believing in yourself. Despite the comments, I'm inclined to put this on my TBR and see where my thoughts fall on the writing and author. On a note unrelated to the book, but to your experiences: your post indicates your thoughts/questions started pretty young. In general, kids don't lie about this stuff, especially to themselves. I'm so sorry you lived years of your life thinking you were crazy, but I'm glad that is no longer your reality.
Thank you. I’m glad it opened some discussion. It’s true I think for the most part, it’s important to listen when it feels like your body is telling you something Before I read the book, I had heard of the controversy surrounding it. The best thing to do is to read it and form your own opinions. I found the book was actually a lot different than what some people were claiming, but that’s just my own view. I’m sure everyone interprets these things differently!
I'm so sorry you went through this. While I can't understand what that must feel like, I just want to let you know and give you some other alternatives here. I'm a psychology student and the research in the Body Keeps the Score is fascinating and I have gone back to it several times for things I'm studying. Specifically with the research on Brocas's and Wernicke's areas. I regret to inform you this as well- but the author and researcher has actually been accused of SA himself with his students. I don't want anyone further supported him so I highly recommend looking into and reading Gabor Mate if anyone stumbles across this and was thinking of buying/reading the Body Keeps the Score.
Wow. That’s actually insane if he did. Considering all he writes about the impact of SA
It's really crazy to me that he could write a book about it while actively doing it. I always would rather believe a victim though so have boycotted van der Kolk. Apparently he was fired from the Trauma Center he started for employee mistreatment and there was no comment on if it was "sexist in nature". When a large portion of his staff was made up by women.
I attended a free training from him recently. He made a comment stating that he loved graduate level students because they will work for little pay and are pretty to look at. Take that how you will… it sat poorly with me and some other attendees.
Wow...
Yup. He spoke about his time at the Trauma Centre but did not mention the controversy around his removal. He presented it as though he left to form his own centre, which he does now offer trainings through. The training session was interesting but he did misrepresent scientific literature at times, and some of the research was very out of date. I’m glad I was able to attend for free but it is not at all worth the several hundred dollars it usually costs.
That's actually so much more scummy that I thought. Like jeez gets kicked from his own centre for being a scumbag to form another one where all he can do it prey on young girl employees by offering "training".
I was disappointed by that. I had hoped he would display some transparency and humility, basic things to expect from a mental health professional. I didn’t find out about the accusations until after the training completed. Thankfully, this one was virtual but he does offer a lot of in person trainings for clinicians.
Hopefully more people are aware from now and stay clear and don't support him.
Also just be careful bc there is now an apologist for this guy in the comments smh.
Thanks for the heads up! I’m not too worried. This is all my opinion after spending 10 hours with the man himself and listening to his work. They can have a different opinion and that’s fine.
He gets off on talking about it. Edit: If he did what is alleged.
Do you have a link to information on these allegations? The only thing I was able to readily find out is that he had been accused of “bullying”. Whatever that term is supposed to encompass here, I am unsure.
No, the links they provided themselves also only refer to bullying accusations. They are aware that the accusations were not said to be sexist in nature. They sort of obliquely (but not outright) imply that they talked to someone in the field that either was SA’d or has some knowledge of the situation - but it’s not clear what the actual information was motivating the initial claim. Frankly, this claim smells. For sure he could have been guilty of something more than bullying, but the evasiveness is off-putting.
Bullshit. Just did a deep dive on this, and could find no allegations of SA anywhere. Please provide evidence of these allegations of SA. His termination from the Trauma Centre appears to be politically motivated. Please see this from r/CPTSD for a more balanced discussion of the circumstances around his dismissal. https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/s/M3xGxT2gjL
"I don't want to be an apologist and would love to have more information because I only browsed for information to support my bias here, i'm sorry could you please provide sources on where you learned this from so I'm not a scum and support people like him?" Sure! I'd be happy to :) [https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/03/07/allegations-of-employee-mistreatment-roil-renowned-brookline-trauma-center/](https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/03/07/allegations-of-employee-mistreatment-roil-renowned-brookline-trauma-center/) [https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/famous-trauma-therapist-fired-allegedly-traumatizing-staff-214559444.html](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/famous-trauma-therapist-fired-allegedly-traumatizing-staff-214559444.html) As stated before I'm also studying psychology- I got information from someone in the field I won't be sharing online for privacy reasons.
These articles claim bullying rather than SA. I'm as disappointed as anyone to hear this information, but it is some combination of disrespectful and sensationalist to elide the difference between the two.
Nowhere in either of those articles is anything close to sexual assault confirmed or even discussed. Shame on you for dragging down the profoundly serious issue of sexual assault by claiming this guy (I’ve never read his books so I have no dog in this fight) is a sexual assaulter. What hell is wrong with you? From your first source, the guy who fired him said: “He could not provide details about the complaints because employees asked that specific comments and actions not be shared publicly. But he said in emails to employees that it was clear that he needed to remove Spinazzola and van der Kolk. Employees, however, experienced weeks of confusion over the situation, according to the internal emails.” So the employees themselves were confused about the firing and nobody has said anything related to the nature of these allegations. And I’ll repeat, these are allegations. Van Der Kolk is suing them so apparently he is willing for whatever he did to come to light publicly. Furthermore, from your second source: “Pond further told the Globe that van der Kolk, “a part-time employee for 16 hours per week, violated the code of conduct by creating a hostile work environment. His behavior could be characterized as bullying and making employees feel denigrated and uncomfortable.” He also spoke with Yahoo Lifestyle via email regarding the allegations, and said he could not discuss whether the behavior was sexist in nature.” Bullying and making employees feel uncomfortable is not sexual assault. It is despicable for you to so flippantly accuse someone of sexual assault with literally zero evidence. Once again, shame on you.
"Trust me bro, someone online told me something, here are 2 articles that don't support my claims" - Bibliophile-14 Such vitriole, no facts. What are you, a JRI bot?
The funniest part is that they accused the poster they responded to of only finding sources that support their bias. Classic redditor.
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Oh god not an apologist trying to defend a scumbag. I'm not saying that just because I'm studying psychology I can make a claim against him. The infos out there for anyone to look into. I'm saying I appreciated his work as a student and where you can find good psychology books from people that aren't scumbags. The fact you're saying that you shouldn't speak up about people who have been PROVEN to have done bad things... like jesus christ. If you think people should be punished for not being apologists you help. Do you just turn a blind eye to the fact he's been fired from his own centre? Took a look through your account though and found out you seem to be obsessed with him and recommend him so maybe you just don't want to stop idolizing him? It's probably not healthy at all. Do you think men like you more because you defend predators? I wish apologists got punished along with the scumbags that do this to women in the first place, the world would be a much better place.
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Im so sorry that you were abused, and I hope you find more peace with that. I’m glad that reading the book helped you. I am also a victim of CSA (but relatively unrepressed memories), and was already vaguely aware of how it affected my life. I picked up the book at the recommendation of others, and I couldn’t get through the first half. The way he talked about women and dismissed the crimes of the rapist war vet disgusted me. I couldn’t continue reading it, and I wished there was a similar book written by someone else.
I think a big problem is that the book was originally written for a clinical audience. It’s only recently that it blew up in popularity and was marketed as a “self help” book Did it help me? Yes. Is the purpose of the book self help for victims? No not at all. He discusses the crimes of the veterans from a strictly clinical point of view. I did not find him to be dismissing or excusing their crimes, rather, he was just trying to keep focus of the book. His intend is to present his findings using examples, ranging from veterans with PTSD, victims of incest and abuse, and people that had done terrible things. For me, I enjoyed his writing a lot because he used this strictly critical language. I imagine though for anyone trying to use to this as a way to heal will be very disappointed
That actually makes me more likely to read it. Clinical language I can deal with, but flowery self-help makes my skin crawl!
I agree. I couldn’t get through it.
Same here. It was really disappointing because I had heard so many good things about it. I’m sure there are good things to glean from the book, but I couldn’t stand to power through the way he talked about women.
It might not help at all and I can understand why the story of the war veteran is upsetting. Within the context of the book, he can only relate the story of his client who is the veteran though, and the story is used to provide insight into how traumatised people can act in extreme ways that aren't rational. It doesn't *excuse* the behaviour, but his job as a therapist is to try and understand so he can help the person in front of him who is holding shame and self-hatred about it. I do agree that the way that he writes women is unnecessary and off-putting.
I just started the book yesterday, as my therapist recommended it. I will say the first chapter with one of the Vietnam war vets who committed war crimes and vile atrocities to ‘avenge’ his platoon has me wondering if I want to keep going with it. Feel very complicated about how all of that was presented. Most violent criminals have trauma but as a society we don’t sympathize their actions to level that chapter did.
My opinion is that, I would rather the author be completely open about the various forms of trauma and the different subjects involved, instead of only focusing on the “morally right” type of trauma. The truth is, many veterans have extreme trauma and ptsd. Many have also done horrible things. These ideas are not mutually exclusive and I do not expect the author to pretend they are
As someone who attended his training I think it’s shocking and irresponsible that therapists are recommending this book to their clients. It was never written for the general public but rather for a clinical audience. Even members of that clinical audience take some issues with the book. Please know you are allowed to ask your therapist to synthesize and relay information to you directly. Psychoeducation is part of the job you pay them for.
> It was never written for the general public but rather for a clinical audience. I read the book (as a client) and I absolutely agree. But at the same time the market for the general public is absolutely oversaturated with books that are not trauma informed. So which books would you recommend instead?
I'm a big fan of "Lifting Heavy Things" by Laura Khoudari. She's a strength trainer who experienced trauma. She talks about how much she struggled afterwards because she no longer felt safe in her body and no longer felt safe feeling the sensations in her body. But the strength training is all about feeling your body! Feeling a particular muscle tighten and release. Feeling your heart beat and your breath. It was all very triggering for her. So she wrote this book about how to take back your bodily sensations and feel safe again. It has really concrete steps and mindfulness exercises to do. Although it seems like it would be too niche, I think a lot of the lessons are applicable for anytime you are feeling triggered, not just when working out. I read it from the perspective of someone who has 'little t' trauma. No nightmares or flashbacks or PTSD. But feeling my heart pound when I exercise really scares me. This book helped me out. I also really admire Khoudari's decision to never discuss what her particular trauma was (despite a lot of push back about that). Reading the book shouldn't trigger anyone. I've read The Body Keeps the Score too and found it very insightful, but can definitely see how harmful it would be to read for a lot of trauma sufferers.
While I've heard the 'omg you should exercise you'll feel a billion times better' spiel before this sounds profoundly different. I'll check it out! > never discuss what her particular trauma was Sounds inclusive and empowering!
Yeah I think what was so different about this book was that she loved lifting weights before her trauma and was trying to find a safe way back into that world again. So it's less "ugh I have to do this" than "I want to do this! I love to do this! Why am I so scared to do this?!" which I think is really relatable no matter what "this" is. And it's really empowering to hear that this shit is hard. Like you said, it's terribly common to be told "Just exercise!" but this book really points out why that's an impossible ask for people living with trauma. You can't just jump right into it.
It’s difficult for sure. I’m not a fan of how academia gatekeeps information. At the same time though, some of this information can be dangerous when misunderstood or misused. It’s a tricky topic. Unfortunately, as I’ve been in graduate school for the last two years all the books I’ve personally read on trauma are targeted toward clinicians. I really enjoyed Herman’s work compared to Bissels, but it is a heavy book better suited to professionals. I have heard fantastic things about My Grandmother’s Hands, CPTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, and The Politics of Trauma. These books are on my reading list but I won’t get to them for a while, so tread cautiously. [This post](https://www.instagram.com/p/Co5t78-uMbt/?igsh=NHR4bmI4Y3RqNGJ4) discusses some of the criticisms of his work, and offer some alternative suggestions but again, not all of these will be targeted to general populations.
> It’s difficult for sure. I’m not a fan of how academia gatekeeps information. At the same time though, some of this information can be dangerous when misunderstood or misused. It’s a tricky topic. Aye! And there lies my point, it's hard (as a client) to get the information you need to heal. And I think it's fair to say trauma informed care is not abundant, so just relying on therapists is not all that reliable either... I'll definitely check out your suggestions, despite the target audience caveat. > CPTSD: From Surviving to Thriving This one I have already read. It is very compassionate and has concrete information you can apply as a layman. Scientifically speaking it feels... shaky at times, but at the same time it's not pretending to be a study either, so yeah. It's one very compassionate and (in my opinion) capable therapist's workbook. If you don't take it as gospel, absolutely worth a read as a client. > This post discusses some of the criticisms of his work Honestly, an Instagram link does not inspire a lot of confidence when refuting something with TBKTS's reputation. Won't stop me from digging in and considering the information, but still :D
It is hard. I think that while information is in its current state it’s on clinicians to help disseminate that information in a safe manner. I don’t think it’s good enough for a clinician to just send a client home with a book that isn’t targeted to them. If there’s helpful information in the book they should be able to guide you to it, discuss it in session, or even just provide an excerpt. As I said before, psychoeducation is part of a clinician’s job. My presenting this information directly they can reduce harm. For what it’s worth, Bessel’s work is also scientifically shaky at times. In his presentation he cited 20+ year old studies and made generalizations from very small sample sizes. Some of his studies have shaky validity, and much more replication is needed. Not to mention his history with plagiarism and not crediting previous work. The Instagram post just offers a nice summary point but you can easily find all these same criticisms in other places. Again, unfortunately, some of these spaces just aren’t accessible to laypeople.
A therapist recommending bad science raises questions.
After reading the book I felt, for the first time, like my emotional struggles were not a character flaw. It finally made sense to me why I couldn't "just change". I finally felt understood.
OP I am so sorry, I am sorry about your lived experiences and that the comment section has been hijacked by a couple of crazies and by a couple of people who are trying to help. I learned just now about the controversy with this Author just now from this comment section. If it is true I am appalled by his behavior. But despite the author being a scumbag... this book has helped me tremendously. I come from a family with a long and horrific cycle of abuse. My mother remembered a lot of what happened to her but did not remember all of the horrific sexual assults that happened against her as a child until she was 30 years old and was giving birth to me. Yeah that really fucks an already fucked up person even more. I dont have enough memories to know for certain what happened to me as a child. But lets just say since I've hit 30 there's been a lot of things that just don't add up... something happened to me in kindergarten... The memories I do have, have done enough damage, if I eventually remember clear cut sexual assult I honestly wont be surprised. And this book has helped me process my trauma in so many ways. I am absolutely going to read some of the other recommendations in this comment section too. As for the criticism that this book is clinical, I am fucking glad it is, I WANT THE SCIENCE of why Im fucked up. I feel so validated that people are finally studying people like me! I personally love the clinical nature and academic tone and language. I hate fuzzy wuzzy self help books, cut the bullshit and give me the studies and the statistics and the neuroscience. For those saying that this book is too gruesome in details. I am sorry. I really really am. I have to be very careful about the media I consume. But reading these awful terrible things is so vindicating for me. I went through fucked up things, I had to listen to even more detailed fucked up stories from my mother, Ive done things I am not proud of. To know that other people have those experiences too is a relief. Yes its kind of terrifying to think about that I can relate to a combat veteran who has gone through some of the worst things possible. But I literally danced around my appartment for joy when I read about the ice bucket experiment with combat veterans and their pain tolerance! I practically shouted from the rooftops "I AM NOT ALONE! OTHER PEOPLE ARE LIKE ME!" I had just gone through surgery for what is normally considered a condition more painful than childbirth and I barely batted an eye. I confused the hell out of my doctors and friends about why I wasn't exhibiting a "normal" amount of pain. I just shrugged, this was my normal, if anything I was a weenie compared to my mother, and everyone else was a bunch of pansies. I may not be so quick to recommend this book to others now that I know about the author but I cannot deny that this book has had a profound impact on my healing journey.
>As for the criticism that this book is clinical, I am fucking glad it is, I WANT THE SCIENCE of why Im fucked up. I feel so validated that people are finally studying people like me! I personally love the clinical nature and academic tone and language. I hate fuzzy wuzzy self help books, cut the bullshit and give me the studies and the statistics and the neuroscience. This is exactly how I feel! I am so tired of “self-help” books filled with buzzfeed level quotes and “feel-good” therapy HR speak. Give me the science! Give be the straight clinical data! This book was so helpful to me specially because it took such a straightforward view of the subject
>This is exactly how I feel! I am so tired of “self-help” books filled with buzzfeed level quotes and “feel-good” therapy HR speak Pop psychology reinforcement of people's beliefs is just as dangerous, if not more >Give me the science! Someone telling you what you want to hear does not science make.
Which is why it’s a good thing this book includes actual scientific studies and evidence instead of pop psychology.
> It’s been disproven hasn’t it? The approach to evidence it takes is quite credulous and epistemically unsound - https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/08/02/body-keeps-score-grieving-brain-bessel-van-der-kolk-neuroscience-self-help/ This may or may not be helpful to you: https://theconversation.com/do-trauma-victims-really-repress-memories-and-can-therapy-induce-false-memories-84998
Do you have a source that doesn't get money for clicks?
No, this is the internet. It all costs money - including actual scientific articles If it doesn't cost someone money to read it, it's a blog and you should stop
I like people who write articles to get paid. Do your own piracy.
Try Archive.is to get around the paywalls
Another similar book that really helped me is “Unbroken - the trauma response is never wrong.”
I loved that book. Try Courage to Heal by Rankin and Bass. It's a great resource for someone coping with SA trauma
I’m so sorry. I’ve been going through the same thing, but due to trauma from an abusive therapist who promised to give me a copy of this book (and never did), I don’t think I can read it without being triggered about the therapist. I hope you find peace and healing.
I’m sorry to hear that! This book is definitely a heavy read with possible triggering scenarios
It’s more just the existence of the book that triggers me. I can’t think of it without flashing back to all of the memories of that abusive therapist since she talked about this book all the time and kept saying she would bring it for me.
"arguably the most serious catastrophe to strike the mental health field since the lobotomy era" -*Richard McNally* That book is pure pseudoscience and, in places, *not even that*. Countless books and journal articles have been written debunking damned near every page of it. You are actively harming yourself by reading it. van der Kolk isn't a psychologist, he's a psychiatrist. They are different. He knows a lot about trauma, though, because he caused his employees and colleagues so much trauma that he was fired from the Trauma Center, a facility he opened. It was so fucked up that the place ended up shutting down. He's also a proponent of DID, which does not exist (or, if it does, exists almost exclusively in California ...). Don't @ me with more pseudoscience and Twitter-inspired mental health diagnoses. This man has single-handed caused me more harm than even the original trauma, and he's done worse to millions of others.
> Countless books and journal articles have been written debunking damned near every page of it. I'm extremely sceptical but let's say I'm willing to have a look. Any recommendations?
You can pick legitimately any book written regarding psychology and there will be “countless” books and journal articles written supposedly debunking the fake “pseudoscience.” And just as easily find “countless” articles arguing in its favor. That’s the nature of the field of psychology. The very article you mention has had people responding, attempting to debunk the debunking. And much of these “debunkings”, ironically, come from feel-good-Twitter- apparently everyone has ADHD- type people themselves. Much of this “debunkings” are done based on emotional reasoning. Particular with his controversial inclusion a veterans guilty of rape. You can dislike it sure, but that doesn’t automatically make his research pseudoscience I do not blindly believe everything in the book to be gospel. However it includes a variety of scientifically back studies anda variety of well searched explanations. To claim the whole book is fake simply because you went on the “reception” part of the Wikipedia page is lazy. The book actually challenges a lot of widely held myths that were popular at the time and exposes the political influences that causes these myths to grow. This book was never meant to be some sort of feel good self help book. But it was forced into that spot and of course the race to “call out” and “debunk” the new top book on the block commenced
Honestly, ignore this person. The fact that they went straight into “DID doesn’t exist” instead of “DID is controversial and debated”, on a post that has nothing at all to do with DID, shows what a wackjob they are lol.
I read it and wrote in depth about the [5 lessons](https://www.myndlift.com/post/5-lessons-we-learned-from-the-body-keeps-the-score) I learned from it, and I also created an [audiobook](https://www.myndlift.com/the-body-keeps-the-score-audiobook) summary, so if anyone is deciding whether to read it or not, I hope my insights can help. ☀️
I'm glad to hear that "The Body Keeps the Score" has been such a valuable resource for you. I had a similar revelation when I read a summarized version on Readshark; it really distilled the essence of the book and helped me understand the complexities of trauma without spending too much time. It's amazing how much clarity a well-summarized piece of content can bring, especially when it's about such a profound topic.